274 réponses à ce sujet

[Maria Caliban]

LolaLei wrote...

Yeah but the whole Grey Warden thing was for the greater good. I think you should be given the option later in the game if you want to become a seeker, or a templar, Grey Warden etc or just stay as you are.

According to Cassandra, the Templars have broken from the Chantry and are engaged in a war with the Mage Circles. Her Seekers are trying to stop the war.

Stopping a massive civil war when the qunari are on your doorstep seems like it would be for the greater good. Especially as the Templars and the Mages are two of the most powerful fighting forces in Thedas.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 09 avril 2012 - 05:47 .

[Arthur Cousland]

I'm up for anything that makes a good game.

I suppose that if the hero was a Seeker, then they wouldn't be a dwarf?  Every time I play Legacy, I love the dwarves more and more and wish that Bioware would bring back race options.

[Cat Fancy]

LolaLei wrote...

Yeah but the whole Grey Warden thing was for the greater good. I think you should be given the option later in the game if you want to become a seeker, or a templar, Grey Warden etc or just stay as you are.

Being a part of the Grey Wardens never sat well with me. They, or Duncan, at least, seem to exploit Ferelden's underclass for membership and irresponsibly keep vital information about defeating the Darkspawn a secret. They don't inform potential recruits about the risks of joining them until they're ready to murder them if they back out. Being a member of the Grey Wardens felt incredibly sleazy. I thought it was weird how blithely accepting of this nonsense the cast in Awakening was. I haven't played that in years, though, so maybe I'd see things differently now.

[Arthur Cousland]

Maria Caliban wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

Yeah but the whole Grey Warden thing was for the greater good. I think you should be given the option later in the game if you want to become a seeker, or a templar, Grey Warden etc or just stay as you are.

According to Cassandra, the Templars have broken from the Chantry and are engaged in a war with the Mage Circles. Her Seekers are trying to stop the war.

Stopping a massive civil war when the qunari are on your doorstep seems like it would be for the greater good. Especially as the Templars and the Mages are two of the most powerful fighting forces in Thedas.

Theadas engaged in all-out war with the Qunari on their doorstep reminds me of the civil war in Skyrim and the Thalmor.

I could see the Qunari taking advantage of the chaos and stepping in, and becoming a dominant power in Theadas.  Then, the next game could begin with the hero fighting for Theadas' independence from the Qunari.  It would be like in Origins, where everyone united against the blight.

If the Qunari are just waiting for the right moment to try to invade Theadas, it would seem that after the mages and templars kill each other, it would be a good time.

Modifié par Arthur Cousland, 09 avril 2012 - 06:04 .

[HiroVoid]

Alpha Protocol's considered one of the best recent games that really enables choices that matter down the road. It forces you into a group in the beginning. I'd say more, but it'd be spoiler-related.

[HiroVoid]

Arthur Cousland wrote...

I'm up for anything that makes a good game.

I suppose that if the hero was a Seeker, then they wouldn't be a dwarf?  Every time I play Legacy, I love the dwarves more and more and wish that Bioware would bring back race options.

That is possible though I doubt we'll be getting multiple races due to the limitations of voiced protagonists, and having to make multiple armor models.  I'd guess we're stuck with humans.

[HiroVoid]

sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

Cultist wrote...

So, basically, you are forced to like Seekers' agenda. Forced to approve jusina etc etc etc. You are stripping players of choice to oppose EVERY Chantry, both anti or pro-mage. You assume that those who would not like anti mage Chantry would like pro mage Chantry. Yet some would like to see the Chantry undone, would like to see Seekers undone etc.

I don't know cultist, maybe you're looking at the seekers as a group not as a person being (maybe) your new PC.  It's all about one person and the choices that person makes in a period of time. A seeker can be a character "from the inside" that can go an entirely different way then the believes s/he had when s/he entered the order if that's what you want for him/her.

Bingo.  You need to use your imagination.  Your character could even be someone who was raised as a seeker who doesn't really believe in it and resents his current status, but doesn't fancy the idea of farming or cleaning up floors for a living.  Whatever you want to add.

Edit: Double post.  Thought someone would have posted by now.

Modifié par HiroVoid, 09 avril 2012 - 06:03 .

[TEWR]

Cultist wrote...

So, basically, you are forced to like Seekers' agenda. Forced to approve jusina etc etc etc. You are stripping players of choice to oppose EVERY Chantry, both anti or pro-mage. You assume that those who would not like anti mage Chantry would like pro mage Chantry. Yet some would like to see the Chantry undone, would like to see Seekers undone etc.

It's clear you didn't read a word of what was said.

For the record, that link I posted of my ideas was presupposing that the path the player could take would be anti-mage, pro-mage, or neutral after the PC is recruited. Meaning you could continue to side with the people that recruited you, betray them because you think they're wrong and want to work for the other side, or help them up to a point where you then disavow any connection to either group. Not only that, but I also added a little caveat stating that maybe the PC can declare they want no part in it, where they are then forced into siding with the group against their will (you know, like the Wardens!).

Other peoples' posts are stating similar things.

Point being, the idea of playing as a Seeker doesn't automatically negate player agency.

But it seems like you're hellbent on believing that playing as a Seeker will render your player agency null and void by dint of playing as a Seeker.

By that kind of fallacious thinking, playing as a Warden rendered player agency impossible in the minds of people that heard about such a thing.

And while I'm sure that did happen -- people crying out that playing as a Warden meant no agency -- I also know they were proven wrong since DAO allowed a great deal of player agency. Perfect? No, I'll always maintain that much. But people enjoyed their Wardens and the sheer outcry of people stating that they don't want their Warden(s) touched by Bioware should be proof enough of that.

Which goes back to me saying that thinking your player agency is gone because of a group that you will be recruited into -- which, as I said I'm presupposing will lead to divergent paths -- is an idiotic argument.

But, you obviously know how Bioware is making DA3, since you're confident that there will be no player agency. Us people, we're just stating how the idea could work, but we don't know what's going to be done.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 09 avril 2012 - 06:23 .

[TEWR]

sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The seekers aren't that defined I think. They took sides with the divine and thus the Andrastian believe but it was an alliance, and those can break.

From what I'm led to believe, the Seekers are just as fractured as the Templars. Some have sided with the Divine while others sided with the New Inquisition.

That's exactly my point. Alliances can be broken and I think that that's what happened. That's why a seeker can be a great hero for DA3 because it can develop in a lot of  ways.

Right. The idea of playing as a Seeker isn't a bad concept in theory, so long as Bioware brings it to full fruition. In theory, it's great.

In practice, that's reliant on how Bioware approaches the situation.

Sorry if you could not read that from my reply.

Admittedly, I thought your statement was saying that the Seekers were all aligned with the Divine, which is why I replied as I did.

[berelinde]

Maria Caliban wrote...

berelinde wrote...

Forget the Chantry. Not all Seekers are Chantry zealots, but all Seekers do profess faith in the Maker and in Andraste.

This would be a deal-breaker for me.

NO. In the most emphatic language possible.

Why?

It's a role-playing game. The characters don't need to be anything like you. I am not a hideously scarred immortal, a super-spy, or a white-haired monster hunter, but it's easy enough to play one.

The Dragon Age series has traditionally avoided fixed protagonists. I have tried to get into Planescape: Torment and the Witcher many, many times but have been unable to do so because the fixed protagonist is a dealbreaker. If you can enjoy it, great, but it isn't a game I'd play.

I have role-played religious characters despite my personal beliefs. I have written religious characters despite my personal beliefs. My avatar is a devout Andrastean although I am neither religious nor male. I don't have a problem with elective religion. I have a problem when the "elective" element is taken away.

Some people are fine with being forced to play a straight male protagonist. Other people find this unacceptable. Others find it impossible. Attitude about religion is just as important to many people as gender identity and sexual orientation.

[TEWR]

berelinde wrote...

Forget the Chantry. Not all Seekers are Chantry zealots, but all Seekers do profess faith in the Maker and in Andraste.

This would be a deal-breaker for me.

NO. In the most emphatic language possible.

Given the scale of the potentially global conflict presented to us, I doubt the Seekers could be so picky as to only recruit people that believe in the Maker.

If you're skilled, they'd probably recruit you. While they may not like that you don't believe in the Maker, they can't exactly be picky.

What was it that Carver said in the beginning of DAII? Begging and being picky don't go hand in hand? Something like that. It applies here to the Seekers.

So no, playing as a Seeker doesn't automatically mean you believe in the Maker. Playing as a Cousland raised in Chantry society would've led me to believe my character is forced to believe in the Maker, but he can make it clear that he doesn't.

Assuming of course playing as a Seeker is done as "You're skilled, we need you, come on". and not "You've been a part of the Seekers for twenty years now!"

But even the latter could still account for atheism and the like.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 09 avril 2012 - 06:34 .

[Cultist]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Cultist wrote...

Overall that follows what DA2 stood for: linear gameplay, pre-defined everything, no choices that matter. I bet we'll get one ending as well, should BioWare shove seekers to our throats

It's amazing how everything you don't want is tied into DA II and was the thing that ruined the game for you.

I don't recall being forced to join any organization in DA II and follow their goals. Do you want to know a game that made me do that? Dragon Age: Origins.

Wardens were absolutely neutral. No faith, no gender, nothing. Princes and beggars, elves and humans. With Seekers you are shoved with entire bunch of pre-set parameters, so yes, I totally agree - that is what I hate in DA2 and what I coincider a deal-breaker

[Cultist]

HiroVoid wrote...

Alpha Protocol's considered one of the best recent games that really enables choices that matter down the road. It forces you into a group in the beginning. I'd say more, but it'd be spoiler-related.

No, you are not forced into AP, you enlist on your own will. And you can kill every man and woman in AP that worked with you if you don't like them.

[berelinde]

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

[quote]berelinde wrote...

Forget the Chantry. Not all Seekers are Chantry zealots, but all Seekers do profess faith in the Maker and in Andraste.

This would be a deal-breaker for me.

NO. In the most emphatic language possible.[/quote]

Given the scale of the potentially global conflict presented to us, I doubt the Seekers could be so picky as to only recruit people that believe in the Maker.

If you're skilled, they'd probably recruit you. While they may not like that you don't believe in the Maker, they can't exactly be picky.

What was it that Carver said in the beginning of DAII? Begging and being picky don't go hand in hand? Something like that. It applies here to the Seekers.

So no, playing as a Seeker doesn't automatically mean you believe in the Maker. Playing as a Cousland raised in Chantry society would've led me to believe my character is forced to believe in the Maker, but he can make it clear that he doesn't.

Assuming of course playing as a Seeker is done as "You're skilled, we need you, come on". and not "You've been a part of the Seekers for twenty years now!"

But even the latter could still account for atheism and the like. [/quote]The impression I got from the Seekers is that it is not an organization that is forced to beg. From the looks of things, they have had the liberty of being choosy. With recruits like Cassandra and Leliana lining up, they don't need or want members who are not committed to the cause.

Sure, you could make a case for forced recruitment ala conscripted Warden, but it would be a lot more contrived than the Warden example. No matter what your Origin, you learn that Wardens have the power of conscription. From what we've seen so far, the Seekers are a volunteer organization. As you can see from the exerpt quoted below from the wiki, there is NO ambiguity about the religious affiliation of the Seekers. There is some lattitude on the mage/templar debate, but there is no question that Seekers are without a doubt agents of the Chantry. 
[quote]The Seekers of Truth[/b] is an Andrastian order that answers directly to the Divine in Val Royeaux.The organization appears to act as a check and balance to the power of the Templar Order, acting in a secretive, investigative and interrogative capacity to root out corruption and protect the Chantry from internal and external threats. They also may become involved in the hunting of particularly cunning apostates. Templars fear and despise the seekers, as they must usually involve themselves when the templars are failing in their duties.

[Maria Caliban]

Cultist wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...

Alpha Protocol's considered one of the best recent games that really enables choices that matter down the road. It forces you into a group in the beginning. I'd say more, but it'd be spoiler-related.

No, you are not forced into AP, you enlist on your own will. And you can kill every man and woman in AP that worked with you if you don't like them.

Mr. Thorton enlists of his own will. If the protagonist of DA 3 enlisted in the Seekers of his or her own free will and could kill everyone in the end, would that be satisfactory for you?

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 09 avril 2012 - 07:28 .

[Tommyspa]

I would like to be a Seeker if I choose to be a Seeker, perhaps a background like in Mass Effect. Mostly because I want Cassandra and that awesome armor she wears, or her not in the armor...decisions, decisions. In all honesty I just want this.

[Askia32]

Could be interesting. Or maybe a seeker who gave up... seeking(?), or one who gives up seeking along the course of DA3.

[PinkShoes]

I dont think it would work because your character would be more of a set character than Hawke was.

I think if you can become a seeker if you choose thats good.

[TEWR]

The impression I got from the Seekers is that it is not an organization that is forced to beg. From the looks of things, they have had the liberty of being choosy. With recruits like Cassandra and Leliana lining up, they don't need or want members who are not committed to the cause.

The cause is to restore order to the continent so that the world doesn't fall into chaos. Belief in the Maker does not necessitate such a conviction in the cause.

The cause is protecting the continent from itself. Restoring the Chantry is secondary. Their primary goal is to stop the war.

Baby steps. Stop the war and then worry about fixing the Chantry.

Additionally, the reason you get that impression is because they had the liberty of being choosy when the world wasn't fighting itself. At the time prior to the Mage-Templar War, while people had opposing viewpoints of varying intensity they weren't fighting each other.

Sure, you could make a case for forced recruitment ala conscripted Warden, but it would be a lot more contrived than the Warden example. No matter what your Origin, you learn that Wardens have the power of conscription. From what we've seen so far, the Seekers are a volunteer organization.

I don't think any source in-game has ever painted the Seekers as a "volunteer organization".

As you can see from the exerpt quoted below from the wiki, there is NO ambiguity about the religious affiliation of the Seekers. There is some lattitude on the mage/templar debate, but there is no question that Seekers are without a doubt agents of the Chantry.

Being an agent of the Chantry doesn't mean they necessarily believe in the Maker.

Yes they're tied to the Chantry. But that just means they work for them, not that they believe in the Maker.

There has been no proof -- as far as I know -- to suggest that the Seekers only recruit people who believe in the Maker.

Considering they act as the watchers of the watchmen, I would think recruiting only people that believe in the Maker would run contrary to their intended purpose. It's best to have varying viewpoints on the matter IMO and someone who doesn't believe in the Maker in any sense -- fanatical belief or moderate belief -- helps that goal.

Because then some of them can say "Hey, this dude's taking his belief way too far."

[Sacred_Fantasy]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Being an agent of the Chantry doesn't mean they necessarily believe in the Maker.

Yes they're tied to the Chantry. But that just means they work for them, not that they believe in the Maker.

There has been no proof -- as far as I know -- to suggest that the Seekers only recruit people who believe in the Maker.

I don't get this part. According to wiki, The Seeker is an Andrastian. How can they be an Andrastian if they don't believe in the Maker?

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Considering they act as the watchers of the watchmen, I would think recruiting only people that believe in the Maker would run contrary to their intended purpose. It's best to have varying viewpoints on the matter IMO and someone who doesn't believe in the Maker in any sense -- fanatical belief or moderate belief -- helps that goal.

Because then some of them can say "Hey, this dude's taking his belief way too far."

But they are not just watchers of the watchmen. They answer to Divine. They're are trusted agents of Divine. How can a rogue/warrior and mage be trusted by Divine to be a Seeker if he/she is not an Andrastian?

[berelinde]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The impression I got from the Seekers is that it is not an organization that is forced to beg. From the looks of things, they have had the liberty of being choosy. With recruits like Cassandra and Leliana lining up, they don't need or want members who are not committed to the cause.

The cause is to restore order to the continent so that the world doesn't fall into chaos. Belief in the Maker does not necessitate such a conviction in the cause.

The cause is protecting the continent from itself. Restoring the Chantry is secondary. Their primary goal is to stop the war.

Baby steps. Stop the war and then worry about fixing the Chantry.

Additionally, the reason you get that impression is because they had the liberty of being choosy when the world wasn't fighting itself. At the time prior to the Mage-Templar War, while people had opposing viewpoints of varying intensity they weren't fighting each other.

Sure, you could make a case for forced recruitment ala conscripted Warden, but it would be a lot more contrived than the Warden example. No matter what your Origin, you learn that Wardens have the power of conscription. From what we've seen so far, the Seekers are a volunteer organization.

I don't think any source in-game has ever painted the Seekers as a "volunteer organization".

They report directly to the Divine. You do not get that high up in the food chain unless you are utterly devoted. The idea that a reluctant conscript with an anti-Chantry agenda would be allowed anywhere near the head of the religion is ludicrous.

Short dialogue:

Seeker: Do you swear to uphold the Chant of Light and serve the Chantry through the grace of the Divine?
PC: I swear to oppose the Chantry with every fiber of my being.
Seeker: Welcome, brother/sister, here's your sun-emblazoned armor. Guards!

Yes, I do understand that this is something that you want very much. Please accept that I do not want it with equal passion.

As you can see from the exerpt quoted below from the wiki, there is NO ambiguity about the religious affiliation of the Seekers. There is some lattitude on the mage/templar debate, but there is no question that Seekers are without a doubt agents of the Chantry.

Being an agent of the Chantry doesn't mean they necessarily believe in the Maker.

Yes they're tied to the Chantry. But that just means they work for them, not that they believe in the Maker.

There has been no proof -- as far as I know -- to suggest that the Seekers only recruit people who believe in the Maker.

Considering they act as the watchers of the watchmen, I would think recruiting only people that believe in the Maker would run contrary to their intended purpose. It's best to have varying viewpoints on the matter IMO and someone who doesn't believe in the Maker in any sense -- fanatical belief or moderate belief -- helps that goal.

Because then some of them can say "Hey, this dude's taking his belief way too far."

Neither forced Chantry membership or mandated faith are acceptable to me. They never will be.

At the risk of sounding antagonistic, what you wrote above does not make sense. The Seekers are not Grey Wardens. They are not a religiously and politically neutral group saving Thedas from the Blight. They are not slowly dying of an incurable disease that makes resignation ultimately impossible. They are a dedicated branch of a single, clearly defined religion.

It looks as if the Seekers will appeal to the protagonist of the next game to restore order and end the religious war. That's great. It works for a protagonist with any set of beliefs. Even the most rabid and atheistic Chantry-hater can get behind that, if only to advance the goal of restricting the Chantry's domination over peoples' lives. As for making the protagonist an actual Seeker, no. There is no need to go there. Sure, make it an option for those who are totally into working for the Chantry or who think it's an easy way to get into Cassandra's pants, but there is no need to require it.

Could we be splitting hairs? In the situation I describe, the protagonist would probably be working for/with the Seekers but there is no need to swear any oaths to become part of an organization some protagonists despise. Becoming an actual Seeker despite conflicting goals and beliefs involves a level of hypocrisy I do not want to have to role-play.