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Why the protagonist could (and should) be a Seeker in DA3


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#76
TEWR

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I don't get this part. According to wiki, The Seeker is an Andrastian. How can they be an Andrastian if they don't believe in the Maker?


The wiki is wrong sometimes and in this case I'm hesitant to believe that the Seekers are all Andrastians considering no in-game source states that the Seekers are comprised only of Andrastians.

The wiki states the Order is Andrastian in nature. It doesn't state that all of its members are Andrastians as well. That it exists as a piece of the Chantry automatically makes the idea of the Order Andrastian in nature.

Doesn't make all of the members themselves Andrastian.

The Wardens were once a part of the Chantry and spread the belief around. That doesn't mean that all of its members believed in the Maker. Merely most, as the Wardens agreed to accept anyone without prejudice towards their background. Be they Human, Elf, Dwarf, Mage, peasant, king, murderer, thief, atheist, or fanatic.


But they are not just watchers of the watchmen. They answer to Divine. They're are trusted agents of Divine. How can a rogue/warrior and mage be trusted by Divine to be a Seeker if he/she is not an Andrastian?


I don't think we should presume to know how Divine Justinia V thinks other then "More rights for mages".

And again, time of war = no time to be picky if you want to restore order to the world.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 09 avril 2012 - 08:35 .


#77
Sejborg

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I don't think Bioware will "force" players to play a religious character. So I don't think the PC will be a Seeker.

But perhaps the PC will work for a Seeker, perhaps Casandra, and get somesort of codename like Lelianas Sister Nightingale. If the PC is some kind of special agent, then there is no need to stretch the lore by having a chantry mage, and there is no need to "force" players to be religious.

#78
berelinde

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I don't get this part. According to wiki, The Seeker is an Andrastian. How can they be an Andrastian if they don't believe in the Maker?


The wiki is wrong sometimes and in this case I'm hesitant to believe that the Seekers are all Andrastians considering no in-game source states that the Seekers are comprised only of Andrastians.

The wiki states the Order is Andrastian in nature. It doesn't state that all of its members are Andrastians as well. That it exists as a piece of the Chantry automatically makes the idea of the Order Andrastian in nature.

Doesn't make the members themselves Andrastian.

We have met two Seekers in-game. Both were Andrastian. I find it difficult to believe that no one would have noticed that the entire wiki entry for the Seekers was in error. The article states over and over that the Seekers are an Andrastian order. They do not say that they are Andrastian in nature. There is no ambiguity about it. What Order admits members who do not meet the defining requirements?

The Wardens were once a part of the Chantry and spread the belief around. That doesn't mean that all of its members believed in the Maker. Merely most, as the Wardens agreed to accept anyone without prejudice towards their background. Be they Human, Elf, Dwarf, Mage, peasant, king, murderer, thief, atheist, or fanatic.

The Grey Wardens predate the Chantry. While it is mentioned in passing in one sentence in the wiki article (which you claim to be an unreliable source), there is absolutely nothing in game to suggest that the Wardens have any religious affiliation at all. There are numerous in-game references to the Wardens' policy of recruiting members without regard toward background, race, or politics.

The Wardens have one purpose: they stop the Blight. They do not exist to spread the Chant or to "spread the belief around". 

#79
Askia32

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Sejborg wrote...

I don't think Bioware will "force" players to play a religious character. So I don't think the PC will be a Seeker.

But perhaps the PC will work for a Seeker, perhaps Casandra, and get somesort of codename like Lelianas Sister Nightingale. If the PC is some kind of special agent, then there is no need to stretch the lore by having a chantry mage, and there is no need to "force" players to be religious.


Starting off, being, or becoming a special agent for a seeker sounds fun.

#80
Sacred_Fantasy

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I don't get this part. According to wiki, The Seeker is an Andrastian. How can they be an Andrastian if they don't believe in the Maker?


The wiki is wrong sometimes and in this case I'm hesitant to believe that the Seekers are all Andrastians considering no in-game source states that the Seekers are comprised only of Andrastians.

The wiki states the Order is Andrastian in nature. It doesn't state that all of its members are Andrastians as well. That it exists as a piece of the Chantry automatically makes the idea of the Order Andrastian in nature.

Doesn't make all of the members themselves Andrastian.

The Wardens were once a part of the Chantry and spread the belief around. That doesn't mean that all of its members believed in the Maker. Merely most, as the Wardens agreed to accept anyone without prejudice towards their background. Be they Human, Elf, Dwarf, Mage, peasant, king, murderer, thief, atheist, or fanatic.


But they are not just watchers of the watchmen. They answer to Divine. They're are trusted agents of Divine. How can a rogue/warrior and mage be trusted by Divine to be a Seeker if he/she is not an Andrastian?


I don't think we should presume to know how Divine Justinia V thinks other then "More rights for mages".

And again, time of war = no time to be picky if you want to restore order to the world.

Granted. Now this leave one last question.

Out of many people who do believe in the Maker, why is my character be chosen to be a Seeker?

Surely there must be a solid reason because not all players like the idea to be associated with religious order.

My Amber Cousland had reason to join the warden because she had no one else and she did it for her father.
My Maverick Cousland join the warden as a ticket to go to landsmeet and seek revenge against Rendon Howe.
My Mahariel was sick and joining the warden was the only way to save her life.
My Aeducan was wronged by her brother and she seek justice through warden organization. 

BioWare's Hawke, on the other hand had no solid ground to be involved with Mage-Templar. I don't want to be in this situation again if i am to play the Seeker's role. There must be a reason or something to gain because my character doesn't interested with anything that has nothing to do with him/her.   

 

#81
TEWR

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berelinde wrote...

We have met two Seekers in-game. Both were Andrastian. I find it difficult to believe that no one would have noticed that the entire wiki entry for the Seekers was in error. The article states over and over that the Seekers are an Andrastian order. They do not say that they are Andrastian in nature. There is no ambiguity about it. What Order admits members who do not meet the defining requirements?


Do we know Cassandra's beliefs regarding the Maker? No.

And it's pointless to assert that because 2 people believe in the Maker -- which for Cassandra we don't actually know -- then so too must it hold true to the rest of the Seekers.

The Grey Wardens predate the Chantry. While it is mentioned in passing in one sentence in the wiki article (which you claim to be an unreliable source), there is absolutely nothing in game to suggest that the Wardens have any religious affiliation at all. There are numerous in-game references to the Wardens' policy of recruiting members without regard toward background, race, or politics.


It may not have been supported in-game, but I am certain that it was supported elsewhere. In either the BSN or some sort of guide.

And their origins are irrelevant. I knew this would be the counterargument used against me. By the logic employed that because a group serves the Chantry they must all believe in what the Chantry preaches, that same logic must hold true for the Grey Wardens since they served the Chantry at one point.

But it doesn't. They served the Chantry but did not all believe in the Maker.

The Wardens have one purpose: they stop the Blight. They do not exist to spread the Chant or to "spread the belief around".


Wrong. Their purpose was twofold in days old. Their purpose was to protect humanity from the Darkspawn/Blights and spread the Chant of Light/Chantry's influence.

Only during the 3rd Blight when they had to mediate and convince two nations to fight the Blight did they sign an proclamation of their neutrality from then onwards.


Sacred_Fantasy wrote....

Granted. Now this leave one last question.

Out of many people who do believe in the Maker, why is my character be chosen to be a Seeker?

Surely there must be a solid reason because not all players like the idea to be associated with religious order.


See my link on the previous page or the one before that. I gave a very general synopsis of why you were sought out.

My Amber Cousland had reason to join the warden because she had no one else and she did it for her father.
My Maverick Cousland join the warden as a ticket to go to landsmeet and seek revenge against Rendon Howe.
My Mahariel was sick and joining the warden was the only way to save her life.
My Aeducan was wronged by her brother and she seek justice through warden organization.


You can still employ reasoning on why you joined the group.

BioWare's Hawke, on the other hand had no solid ground to be involved with Mage-Templar. I don't want to be in this situation again if i am to play the Seeker's role. There must be a reason or something to gain because my character doesn't interested with anything that has nothing to do with him/her.


I disagree that Hawke had no reason to get involved in the war. He had plenty of reasons, if you stop to think about it.

There's Bethany, if she's alive.

There's the estate and the safety of the city -- which is threatened by the measures of Meredith -- which means you want to protect that.

There's Hawke, if he's a mage.

There are reasons, but I won't deny that those reasons become not as great and more along the lines of a hollow sham because of how bad the story is IMO.

So yes, the reasons exist. The continuance of those reasons, however, doesn't.

#82
Askia32

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Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I don't get this part. According to wiki, The Seeker is an Andrastian. How can they be an Andrastian if they don't believe in the Maker?


The wiki is wrong sometimes and in this case I'm hesitant to believe that the Seekers are all Andrastians considering no in-game source states that the Seekers are comprised only of Andrastians.

The wiki states the Order is Andrastian in nature. It doesn't state that all of its members are Andrastians as well. That it exists as a piece of the Chantry automatically makes the idea of the Order Andrastian in nature.

Doesn't make all of the members themselves Andrastian.

The Wardens were once a part of the Chantry and spread the belief around. That doesn't mean that all of its members believed in the Maker. Merely most, as the Wardens agreed to accept anyone without prejudice towards their background. Be they Human, Elf, Dwarf, Mage, peasant, king, murderer, thief, atheist, or fanatic.


But they are not just watchers of the watchmen. They answer to Divine. They're are trusted agents of Divine. How can a rogue/warrior and mage be trusted by Divine to be a Seeker if he/she is not an Andrastian?


I don't think we should presume to know how Divine Justinia V thinks other then "More rights for mages".

And again, time of war = no time to be picky if you want to restore order to the world.

Granted. Now this leave one last question.

Out of many people who do believe in the Maker, why is my character be chosen to be a Seeker?

Surely there must be a solid reason because not all players like the idea to be associated with religious order.

My Amber Cousland had reason to join the warden because she had no one else and she did it for her father.
My Maverick Cousland join the warden as a ticket to go to landsmeet and seek revenge against Rendon Howe.
My Mahariel was sick and joining the warden was the only way to save her life.
My Aeducan was wronged by her brother and she seek justice through warden organization. 

BioWare's Hawke, on the other hand had no solid ground to be involved with Mage-Templar. I don't want to be in this situation again if i am to play the Seeker's role. There must be a reason or something to gain because my character doesn't interested with anything that has nothing to do with him/her.   

 


Of course the reasons are going to be more extreme for becoming a Warden because it's a life commitment with time-bomb over your head.   Hawke being a mage, or his sister being a mage, or even living in the city of, is reason enough to be involved in a conflict.  

If the new protag is a seeker, than of course there will be some backstory.

Modifié par Askia32, 09 avril 2012 - 09:24 .


#83
Dave of Canada

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If I'm forced into the Seekers, I must also have the option to possibly oppose them fundamentally. As secret police in the middle of a conflict, the protagonist may not agree completely with what the Seekers may wish to achieve.

For example, Seekers wish to bring peace between the Templar and the Mages and wish to return to the status quo. What if my character's tendencies are pro-Templar and he'd rather seek all mages be put to the flame? Perhaps another one's a mage who'd rather burn down all Templar, seeing freedom as her only option?

I'd rather have Seekers being a group which plays some role in the backround, the protagonist can help or work against but never truly be part of. Similar to the Order of the Flaming Rose in The Witcher 1.

#84
Sacred_Fantasy

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I disagree that Hawke had no reason to get involved in the war. He had plenty of reasons, if you stop to think about it.

There's Bethany, if she's alive.

Bethany join the Warden. I never leave her behind to be taken away to the Circle. She's safe with the wardens. No Templar can harm her.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote... 
There's the estate and the safety of the city -- which is threatened by the measures of Meredith -- which means you want to protect that.

The estate is the curse. If it's not because of the estate, my Hawke would have return to Loitering and rebuild what was left by his father's Malcolm. My Hawke will not loose Bethany and his mother. But NO... My Hawke doesn't exist. There is only BioWare's Hawke who keep failing on everything.

Protect the city?
The city was infested with neverending thugs, insane mages, corrupted Templars and revolting Elves. It's can't be protected. I don't have to go through the ending to know that. Arishok had explained everything clearly what's going on in the city.   

 

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote... 
<
There's Hawke, if he's a mage.

He's an apostate who like his father only wish to live a peaceful life away from Templars and The Circle.

 

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...  < 
There are reasons, but I won't deny that those reasons become not as great and more along the lines of a hollow sham because of how bad the story is IMO.

So yes, the reasons exist. The continuance of those reasons, however, doesn't.

There is no reason. But thanks anyway. I stop caring about it a year ago. There is no point talking about it anymore.

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 09 avril 2012 - 10:06 .


#85
berelinde

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

And their origins are irrelevant. I knew this would be the counterargument used against me. By the logic employed that because a group serves the Chantry they must all believe in what the Chantry preaches, that same logic must hold true for the Grey Wardens since they served the Chantry at one point.

But it doesn't. They served the Chantry but did not all believe in the Maker.

The Wardens have one purpose: they stop the Blight. They do not exist to spread the Chant or to "spread the belief around".


Wrong. Their purpose was twofold in days old. Their purpose was to protect humanity from the Darkspawn/Blights and spread the Chant of Light/Chantry's influence.

Only during the 3rd Blight when they had to mediate and convince two nations to fight the Blight did they sign an proclamation of their neutrality from then onwards.


Not wrong. Backed by Codex entries, game dialogue, and wiki articles. There is nothing in any Codex entry or dialogue line to suggest that the Wardens were ever preachers.

Gotta go to work, but my arguments still stand, backed by supporting documentation. Attempting to force the player to role-play a Seeker would force them to role-play a character with a mandated religion and political affiliation. Some people who don't mind playing fixed protagonist won't mind this. I find it completely unacceptable.

Working *for* or *with* the Seekers is a viable option, as stated above. It allows players to create anti-Chantry protagonists who are not forced into hypocrisy. It does not prevent anyone from including an option where the protagonist is given the *option* of becoming a Seeker. Why force an issue that many players will be unable to accept?

#86
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Pweh, red the entries in this thread after I left the discussion to go to bed.

The Ethereal Writer Redux,
I cannot find any evidence of the gray wardens spreading the Andrastian believe.

They converted to the chantry of Andraste in 1:33 divine because they were impressed by emperor Drakon's actions in the second blight but nowhere is stated that they were preachers of the faith.

I agree with you that far that it's not imposible that some grey wardens did try to convert others but that would be speculation. Grey wardens are recruted from everywhere like you said so it is plausible but not proven and this would be action taken by induviduals and not the grey wardens as a group.

#87
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[quote]berelinde wrote...
[/quote]Not wrong. Backed by Codex entries, game dialogue, and wiki articles. There is nothing in any Codex entry or dialogue line to suggest that the Wardens were ever preachers.

Gotta go to work, but my arguments still stand, backed by supporting documentation. Attempting to force the player to role-play a Seeker would force them to role-play a character with a mandated religion and political affiliation. Some people who don't mind playing fixed protagonist won't mind this. I find it completely unacceptable.

Working *for* or *with* the Seekers is a viable option, as stated above. It allows players to create anti-Chantry protagonists who are not forced into hypocrisy. It does not prevent anyone from including an option where the protagonist is given the *option* of becoming a Seeker. Why force an issue that many players will be unable to accept?
[/quote]

Let's put it this way:

Tallis in MotA is a qunari basically. But her actions often are against the qunari beliefs and so you could say she's a rebel. She's not against but also not completely pro the belief. She's a fixed character but still there is some interpretation possibility left for the player to form an own opinion about her and where she stands.

If the main character will be a seeker that doesn't necesarilly have to mean that he will be an Adrastian. He may have started out that way but due to things that happened his point of view changed.

This would mean that he would be presented as a "neutral" character at the start of the game with a seeker background.

I can understand your point of view. But if the seeker protagonist would be presented as a person that struggles with his convictions/beliefs due to events that happened and you have the choice to devellop him in the direction you are comfortable with would a seeker PC be that much of a problem?

#88
Pasquale1234

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I've often thought it might be interesting to make Seeker a warrior specialization, similar to what they did with the Templar spec.

The abilities could include things like:
 - Coercion (persuasion and/or intimidation)
 - Anti-Templar talents (things that would neutralize Templar abilities)
 - Deeper investigation abilities (maybe the ability to subpeona records, question NPCs)
 - Seeker summon (similar to summoning the Mabari)
 - Other ways to call upon Chantry resources ?

Maria Caliban wrote...
Dragon Age II would have been better if they forced you to play a mage. And I say this as someone who would have railed at the idea of being forced to play a mage. I prefer warriors.


That would have dealt quite a blow not only to player agency but also replayability.  I think that requiring you to have a mage sibling with high friendship adequately served that intended purpose.

ETA:  If BioWare is at all interested in giving players more agency and the game greater replayability, I think it could be interesting to allow players to choose whether the protagonist would be a Seeker, Templar, part of the Mage Rebellion, or none of the above.  It would allow you to play through the war from different perspectives, much like the different origins in DAO did.

Modifié par Pasquale1234, 09 avril 2012 - 03:23 .


#89
warriorrc

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could an elf be a seeker this is important to me

#90
the_one_54321

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Apparently, no one here was raised under a religious dogma and later chose to leave it...
Pro-Chantry at birth = pro-Chantry for life.
:huh:

#91
fchopin

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I want to play a slave like Spartacus and then escape, who ever tries to take me back as a slave will die.

I want to free slaves so they can join my team, we are the free we will not submit to any culture in DA.

#92
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I dunno, perhaps it's because I don't partake in companion media and only in the actual games, but I don't even know what a Seeker really is.

So I wouldn't really want to be one. I think Dragon Age should stick with the common origins roots. Kind of common anyway.

#93
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the_one_54321 wrote...

Apparently, no one here was raised under a religious dogma and later chose to leave it...
Pro-Chantry at birth = pro-Chantry for life.
:huh:


I am raised roman kathlic, the schools I went to were roman kathlic too. I had religious class and had to go to church when I was still at home.

Now I believe the way I want to. I have my own opinions and they really are not simular to how it was dictated to me.

So I cannot see how you would come to that conclusion as I commented on this thread too.

#94
edwardhazelden

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I wouldn't mind the player being pushed into being a seeker, I mean in the first game you got forced into being a grey warden and things turned out epically, it gave you a sense of direction and a goal to be working towards. I think that was one of dragonage 2 main problems in terms of the story was that it was a bit all over the place. I just really hope they bring back the race option again I loved playing a dwarf and elf and their subtle changes to dialog it made but with voice acted characters I doubt that would be the case.

#95
the_one_54321

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sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
Apparently, no one here was raised under a religious dogma and later chose to leave it...
Pro-Chantry at birth = pro-Chantry for life.
:huh:

I am raised roman kathlic, the schools I went to were roman kathlic too. I had religious class and had to go to church when I was still at home.

Now I believe the way I want to. I have my own opinions and they really are not simular to how it was dictated to me.

So I cannot see how you would come to that conclusion as I commented on this thread too.

Sarcasm, applied to make a point about "working for the Chantry."

#96
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edwardhazelden wrote...

I wouldn't mind the player being pushed into being a seeker, I mean in the first game you got forced into being a grey warden and things turned out epically, it gave you a sense of direction and a goal to be working towards. I think that was one of dragonage 2 main problems in terms of the story was that it was a bit all over the place. I just really hope they bring back the race option again I loved playing a dwarf and elf and their subtle changes to dialog it made but with voice acted characters I doubt that would be the case.


The problem is that the Seeker is not an uninterested party. Grey Wardens historically have been fairly neutral on most issues, and talking to Duncan he actually says I think that stuff like blood magic is not forbidden.

#97
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the_one_54321 wrote...

sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
Apparently, no one here was raised under a religious dogma and later chose to leave it...
Pro-Chantry at birth = pro-Chantry for life.
:huh:

I am raised roman kathlic, the schools I went to were roman kathlic too. I had religious class and had to go to church when I was still at home.

Now I believe the way I want to. I have my own opinions and they really are not simular to how it was dictated to me.

So I cannot see how you would come to that conclusion as I commented on this thread too.

Sarcasm, applied to make a point about "working for the Chantry."


Can understand that, but even sarcasm has to be substantiated sometimes Image IPB. The way you wrote it it looked more like a cry in the dark without any meaning. That's why I reacted.

#98
FKA_Servo

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I could see it working if you are an ex-seeker, possibly defrocked (if that term applies) due to circumstances beyond your control. This precipitates a crisis of faith. You can then choose to deny the teachings of the chantry or maintain your beliefs. Maybe, if you are still devout, you can reclaim your rank (ala Spectre status in Mass Effect)

If you are actively employed as a seeker, it implies to me that you do in fact subscribe to the Andrastian ideology, which is one thing I'm not comfortable with being non-negotiable. I don't mind my character's past being predefined, but that's one aspect of his/her personality that should be under my control.

Edit: to clarify. I think crisis of faith, and whatever precipitates it, should happen outside of the scope of the game. As such, you're starting with as clean a slate as you can reasonably expect.

Modifié par TommyServo, 09 avril 2012 - 05:22 .


#99
Maria Caliban

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Dave of Canada wrote...

If I'm forced into the Seekers, I must also have the option to possibly oppose them fundamentally. As secret police in the middle of a conflict, the protagonist may not agree completely with what the Seekers may wish to achieve.

I was never allowed to go against the Council's secret police, but I was allowed to off the Council.

#100
Conway044

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the_one_54321 wrote...

Apparently, no one here was raised under a religious dogma and later chose to leave it...
Pro-Chantry at birth = pro-Chantry for life.
:huh:


Being raised religious and becoming a member of Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith is a bit different. 

The Seekers report directly to the Divine, they seem to serve a role like the secret police of the Chantry.  I would find it odd for them to allow herectics and non-belivers to become members.

I'd rather see BW use factions, tie specific specializations and equipment to which group you choose:  Seekers, Templars, Rogue Mages and what not.  Or better yet, an Origins system that open up some more freedom in character creation:  Seeker, Mage, Templar, Chevalier, Warden, ect...