274 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

If I do get an answer and it says that the Seekers are a group consisting solely of people that believe in the faith, then I'll concede that a Seeker cannot be an atheist if they blatantly say as much to the group. However, I would also see that as a pretty poor move on Bioware's part, as it drastically limits the effectiveness of their intended story methinks, from what we've been presented with.

There are always going to be limitations on the story. Even if you could profess to want the Chantry to be utterly destroyed, I highly doubt you could make it happen in DA3.

Gaider has however said that the possibility of playing as a Seeker or having one as a companion exists, so now it's all a matter of "Are they solely people that believe in the Maker? Can an atheist join them at all, even through deceit?" and the like.

Considering that Hawke wasn't allowed to be an atheist (given his comments about the Maker), I'm wondering if the possibility will exist for Dragon Age III (like it did for The Warden, who could be atheist).

[berelinde]

ChaosAgentLoki wrote...

I have to ask this question, but what about all of us players who don't want to be atheist characters? I'm sorry, but to me it's coming across that fans believe Bioware needs to think only of those who don't wish to support the chantry, etc. I know that's not the full case, but that's a lot of what I'm seeing in these discussions. As I stated in my earlier post, there are ways to allow players access to being a Seeker without forcing it, but it still feels like those that want it are less important than those that don't (this is not a minority/majority thing, it's just the way these opinions are getting treated). So back to my original question...What about us who don't wish to have no involvement with the Chantry? Those of us who want to be Seekers?

I'm looking for an honest answer here, since I'd like to know the view from the perspective of someone who is against being a Seeker as to how to make it appeal to those of us who want it.

Make it available as a specialization? An elite guild the character may elect to join? The idea is to allow more freedom, not less.

According to canon, the Seekers are an Andrasian order that has historically been part of the Chantry and has, until very recently, reported directly to the Divine. Andrastians the norm and if you're going to have atheists and/or agnostics in it, it will involve a lot of handwaving and ignoring canon.

[CENIC]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Considering that Hawke wasn't allowed to be an atheist (given his comments about the Maker), I'm wondering if the possibility will exist for Dragon Age III (like it did for The Warden, who could be atheist).

There were a few lines you could choose that definitely felt atheist to me. Most of them involved dialogue with Grand Cleric Elthina, however, so a die-hard atheist player might have missed them by virtue of not wanting to get anywhere near that sanctimonious old bag.

I think you could say something about prayer being stupid, you could tell her she's useless (granted, this has more of a political spin than a religious one) and you could tell her the Hero of Fereldan ended the Blight, NOT the Maker.

[Thor Rand Al]

Sorry I don't know enough about Seekers to actually want to be one. Now I'd go for a companion who was one, so we can understand them more but to have my protag set as a Seeker, that's taking away freedom of choosing who we want to be. Just like being forced to be a templer, I couldn't n wouldn't be able to. Templers left a bad taste for me in DA2, I only sided with that end once in DA2 only for the achievement. I will never willingly side with the templers with someone like Meredith in charge. The more I read and play as a mage the more I'm glad we can have the ability to play one. Yes I'm very pro-mage.

And besides being a Seeker and in Orlais I can't see it, there's other things goin on in Orlais then just the mage/templer rebellion going on, you also have a war with the queen and nobles. Seekers/templers jobs are to oversee the mages. Could you imagine running into the Qun n with their beliefs and then a templers with theirs.

Modifié par Thor Rand Al, 11 avril 2012 - 05:38 .

[LobselVith8]

ChaosAgentLoki wrote...

I have to ask this question, but what about all of us players who don't want to be kept from being a Seeker? I'm sorry, but to me it's coming across that many fans believe Bioware needs to think only of those who don't wish to support the chantry, etc. I know that's not the case, but that's a lot of what I'm seeing in these discussions (primarily tonaly). As I stated in my earlier post, there are ways to allow players access to being a Seeker without forcing it, but it still feels like those that want it are less important than those that don't (this is not about the minority/majority thing, it's about the way these opinions seem to be treated). So back to my original question...What about us who don't wish to have no involvement with the Chantry? Those of us who want to be Seekers?

I'm looking for an honest answer here, since I'd like to know the view from the perspective of someone who is against being a Seeker as to how to make your views appeal to those of us who want to be Seekers. I'm truly curious. 

GavrielKay suggested an "Origins" scenerio of having Seeker as an optional background, rather than a mandatory background:

GavrielKay wrote...

I think it would be fun to have the Origins model come back and allow players to choose between Seeker and whatever else.  More choices are better than fewer, assuming they can coordinate the rest of the game play.

[ChaosAgentLoki]

Thor Rand Al wrote...

Sorry I don't know enough about Seekers to actually want to be one. Now I'd go for a companion who was one, so we can understand them more but to have my protag set as a Seeker, that's taking away freedom of choosing who we want to be. Just like being forced to be a templer, I couldn't n wouldn't be able to. Templers left a bad taste for me in DA2, I only sided with that end once in DA2 only for the achievement. I will never willingly side with the templers with someone like Meredith in charge. The more I read and play as a mage the more I'm glad we can have the ability to play one. Yes I'm very pro-mage.

And besides being a Seeker and in Orlais I can't see it, there's other things goin on in Orlais then just the mage/templer rebellion going on, you also have a war with the queen and nobles. Seekers/templers jobs are to oversee the mages. Could you imagine running into the Qun n with their beliefs and then a templers with theirs.

I can see where you're coming from, but I honestly felt the same way about the Wardens. I'm not a very big fan of the order and am quite upset about being forced to be one. My favorite bit of lore for DA comes from the Orlesian occupation and Maric's rebellion in "The Stolen Throne" . If it wasn't for that book, I would've skipped DA:O entirely and went with 2 instead. 

What I'm trying to get at is that DA has done that already. Being forced into the role of Warden made sense in the context of the Origins, but at the same time I didn't like having to be one. So, not to put down your opinion, which is entirely valid (and very true on the account of the other events going on within Orlais), but this is my response to you. 

[LobselVith8]

CENIC wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Considering that Hawke wasn't allowed to be an atheist (given his comments about the Maker), I'm wondering if the possibility will exist for Dragon Age III (like it did for The Warden, who could be atheist).

There were a few lines you could choose that definitely felt atheist to me. Most of them involved dialogue with Grand Cleric Elthina, however, so a die-hard atheist player might have missed them by virtue of not wanting to get anywhere near that sanctimonious old bag.

I think you could say something about prayer being stupid, you could tell her she's useless (granted, this has more of a political spin than a religious one) and you could tell her the Hero of Fereldan ended the Blight, NOT the Maker.

Saying the Maker ended the Blight earns Friendship from Aveline, who seems to be atheist, but it doesn't really contest the Maker's existance from Hawke's view.

Choosing the "You're useless" line lead to Hawke screaming "Get out of my way!" Rather than leading to Hawke saying something intelligent about Elthina being passive and not doing her job as Grand Cleric, he simply comes across as a belligerent idiot. He also says Andrastian lines in combat, and at one point says that someone is "with the Maker," so I'm honestly not seeing how Hawke could be an atheist.

Hawke isn't really allowed to be an atheist in the narrative.

[berelinde]

LobselVith8 wrote...

ChaosAgentLoki wrote...

I have to ask this question, but what about all of us players who don't want to be kept from being a Seeker? I'm sorry, but to me it's coming across that many fans believe Bioware needs to think only of those who don't wish to support the chantry, etc. I know that's not the case, but that's a lot of what I'm seeing in these discussions (primarily tonaly). As I stated in my earlier post, there are ways to allow players access to being a Seeker without forcing it, but it still feels like those that want it are less important than those that don't (this is not about the minority/majority thing, it's about the way these opinions seem to be treated). So back to my original question...What about us who don't wish to have no involvement with the Chantry? Those of us who want to be Seekers?

I'm looking for an honest answer here, since I'd like to know the view from the perspective of someone who is against being a Seeker as to how to make your views appeal to those of us who want to be Seekers. I'm truly curious. 

GavrielKay suggested an "Origins" scenerio of having Seeker as an optional background, rather than a mandatory background:

GavrielKay wrote...

I think it would be fun to have the Origins model come back and allow players to choose between Seeker and whatever else.  More choices are better than fewer, assuming they can coordinate the rest of the game play.

Forgive the quote tree. I like this option, too.

It's important to remember, though, that the Seekers are a very prestigious order. I'm not sure you would find first-level characters of any persuasion there. Perhaps they do "grow their own," cultivating members from birth, but it is also possible that they recruit members from among the best and most accomplished (and most devout) of their generation. As for that, we'll have to wait and see.

[ChaosAgentLoki]

LobselVith8 wrote...


GavrielKay suggested an "Origins" scenerio of having Seeker as an optional background, rather than a mandatory background:

GavrielKay wrote...

I think it would be fun to have the Origins model come back and allow players to choose between Seeker and whatever else.  More choices are better than fewer, assuming they can coordinate the rest of the game play.

I do remember reading that and I can agree in some cases. However, I found that many of the origins were boring, unless you're talking about a variation on what was given when creating a brand new character for Awakening, or how you set up Shepard's background in ME, those I can get behind and would be satisfied with.

[Thor Rand Al]

ChaosAgentLoki wrote...


I can see where you're coming from, but I honestly felt the same way about the Wardens. I'm not a very big fan of the order and am quite upset about being forced to be one. My favorite bit of lore for DA comes from the Orlesian occupation and Maric's rebellion in "The Stolen Throne" . If it wasn't for that book, I would've skipped DA:O entirely and went with 2 instead. 

What I'm trying to get at is that DA has done that already. Being forced into the role of Warden made sense in the context of the Origins, but at the same time I didn't like having to be one. So, not to put down your opinion, which is entirely valid (and very true on the account of the other events going on within Orlais), but this is my response to you. 

But what of those that would want to play as a mage, how would that be incorporated into being a Seeker?  As it is now we don't know enough about them to know what abilities they do have.  What if they can sense a mage, then how would being a secret mage be fit into a world where Seekers knew what you were right off the bat. 
I understand what you're saying but I don't know how it would fit into for those that enjoy playing a mage.  In Origins yes you where forced to be a Warden but you also had the choice of what you wanted to be.  Warrior/rogue/mage.  I'm just having a hard time trying to see how a mage could be incorporated into the Seeker world.

[berelinde]

ChaosAgentLoki wrote...
However, I found that many of the origins were boring...

Without a doubt! Nothing will appeal to everyone. I found the Dalish Origin to be intollerably boring but loved several of the others.  Other people loved the Dalish Origin and could not abide my favorites. Good thing there was more than one!

[ChaosAgentLoki]

Thor Rand Al wrote...

ChaosAgentLoki wrote...


I can see where you're coming from, but I honestly felt the same way about the Wardens. I'm not a very big fan of the order and am quite upset about being forced to be one. My favorite bit of lore for DA comes from the Orlesian occupation and Maric's rebellion in "The Stolen Throne" . If it wasn't for that book, I would've skipped DA:O entirely and went with 2 instead. 

What I'm trying to get at is that DA has done that already. Being forced into the role of Warden made sense in the context of the Origins, but at the same time I didn't like having to be one. So, not to put down your opinion, which is entirely valid (and very true on the account of the other events going on within Orlais), but this is my response to you. 

But what of those that would want to play as a mage, how would that be incorporated into being a Seeker?  As it is now we don't know enough about them to know what abilities they do have.  What if they can sense a mage, then how would being a secret mage be fit into a world where Seekers knew what you were right off the bat. 
I understand what you're saying but I don't know how it would fit into for those that enjoy playing a mage.  In Origins yes you where forced to be a Warden but you also had the choice of what you wanted to be.  Warrior/rogue/mage.  I'm just having a hard time trying to see how a mage could be incorporated into the Seeker world.

Oh, I'm not saying that the player should be forced to be a Seeker. Sorry, I should have made that clearer. What I was trying to get at in my response is that Bioware has forced the player into roles they may not have liked (which, in all truth, makes sense story wise as a Warden...anyways, that's off topic) before. I'm not for forcing others into this, I just want the Seekers as an available option and completely understand where you're coming from, however at the same time the whole discussion of the Wardens as an example remains valid (until you get into religion, then everything explodes). 

Again, I'm rambling, but I see exactly where you're coming from. I just hope that my rambling nature has managed to clear up what I was getting at a bit.

[LobselVith8]

Thor Rand Al wrote...

But what of those that would want to play as a mage, how would that be incorporated into being a Seeker?  As it is now we don't know enough about them to know what abilities they do have.  What if they can sense a mage, then how would being a secret mage be fit into a world where Seekers knew what you were right off the bat. 
I understand what you're saying but I don't know how it would fit into for those that enjoy playing a mage.  In Origins yes you where forced to be a Warden but you also had the choice of what you wanted to be.  Warrior/rogue/mage.  I'm just having a hard time trying to see how a mage could be incorporated into the Seeker world.

I would have to wonder how realistic it would be for a Seeker to be a mage, given what we know about the events in Asunder. Given what was established in the Dragon Age games thus far - including the fact that it's illegal for a mage to possess political power or inherit a title, I don't understand how a mage could be a member of the Seekers of Truth.

[ChaosAgentLoki]

berelinde wrote...

ChaosAgentLoki wrote...
However, I found that many of the origins were boring...

Without a doubt! Nothing will appeal to everyone. I found the Dalish Origin to be intollerably boring but loved several of the others.  Other people loved the Dalish Origin and could not abide my favorites. Good thing there was more than one!

Yeah, though the only one that really stood out to me was the first one I did (City Elf). However, if Bioware can skip the Origin stories in that style, but provide us with ME style background building, then I'll be more satisfied than with these (it is one of the things I find ME does far superior to DA).

[Thor Rand Al]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Thor Rand Al wrote...

But what of those that would want to play as a mage, how would that be incorporated into being a Seeker?  As it is now we don't know enough about them to know what abilities they do have.  What if they can sense a mage, then how would being a secret mage be fit into a world where Seekers knew what you were right off the bat. 
I understand what you're saying but I don't know how it would fit into for those that enjoy playing a mage.  In Origins yes you where forced to be a Warden but you also had the choice of what you wanted to be.  Warrior/rogue/mage.  I'm just having a hard time trying to see how a mage could be incorporated into the Seeker world.

I would have to wonder how realistic it would be for a Seeker to be a mage, given what we know about the events in Asunder. Given what was established in the Dragon Age games thus far - including the fact that it's illegal for a mage to possess political power or inherit a title, I don't understand how a mage could be a member of the Seekers of Truth.

Exactly and that's why I have to say no to having my protag set as a Seeker.  You're taking away freedom to be who I want to play as.  The Origins part as far as being an elf/dwarf/human, having to play a human only doesn't bother me, that's all I play but then take away the choice of what you want to be (mage) then the game's not any fun anymore.  Origins gave us freedom, DA2 we were limited to the human only freedom but we could still choose what we wanted to play.  Take both away and I not only see a shytstorm coming but a lot of people might not buy the next game because of the freedom being taken away completely

[Cultist]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Saying the Maker ended the Blight earns Friendship from Aveline, who seems to be atheist, but it doesn't really contest the Maker's existance from Hawke's view.

Choosing the "You're useless" line lead to Hawke screaming "Get out of my way!" Rather than leading to Hawke saying something intelligent about Elthina being passive and not doing her job as Grand Cleric, he simply comes across as a belligerent idiot. He also says Andrastian lines in combat, and at one point says that someone is "with the Maker," so I'm honestly not seeing how Hawke could be an atheist.

Hawke isn't really allowed to be an atheist in the narrative.

That's why DA2 was such a spectacular failure.

[AkiKishi]

Thor Rand Al wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Thor Rand Al wrote...

But what of those that would want to play as a mage, how would that be incorporated into being a Seeker?  As it is now we don't know enough about them to know what abilities they do have.  What if they can sense a mage, then how would being a secret mage be fit into a world where Seekers knew what you were right off the bat. 
I understand what you're saying but I don't know how it would fit into for those that enjoy playing a mage.  In Origins yes you where forced to be a Warden but you also had the choice of what you wanted to be.  Warrior/rogue/mage.  I'm just having a hard time trying to see how a mage could be incorporated into the Seeker world.

I would have to wonder how realistic it would be for a Seeker to be a mage, given what we know about the events in Asunder. Given what was established in the Dragon Age games thus far - including the fact that it's illegal for a mage to possess political power or inherit a title, I don't understand how a mage could be a member of the Seekers of Truth.

Exactly and that's why I have to say no to having my protag set as a Seeker.  You're taking away freedom to be who I want to play as.  The Origins part as far as being an elf/dwarf/human, having to play a human only doesn't bother me, that's all I play but then take away the choice of what you want to be (mage) then the game's not any fun anymore.  Origins gave us freedom, DA2 we were limited to the human only freedom but we could still choose what we wanted to play.  Take both away and I not only see a shytstorm coming but a lot of people might not buy the next game because of the freedom being taken away completely

DA2 set you as Hawke the coward who ran from the battle of Ostigar. Making you a Seeker in ME3 is no more intrusive.

[CENIC]

LobselVith8 wrote...

CENIC wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Considering that Hawke wasn't allowed to be an atheist (given his comments about the Maker), I'm wondering if the possibility will exist for Dragon Age III (like it did for The Warden, who could be atheist).

There were a few lines you could choose that definitely felt atheist to me. Most of them involved dialogue with Grand Cleric Elthina, however, so a die-hard atheist player might have missed them by virtue of not wanting to get anywhere near that sanctimonious old bag.

I think you could say something about prayer being stupid, you could tell her she's useless (granted, this has more of a political spin than a religious one) and you could tell her the Hero of Fereldan ended the Blight, NOT the Maker.

Saying the Maker ended the Blight earns Friendship from Aveline, who seems to be atheist, but it doesn't really contest the Maker's existance from Hawke's view.

Choosing the "You're useless" line lead to Hawke screaming "Get out of my way!" Rather than leading to Hawke saying something intelligent about Elthina being passive and not doing her job as Grand Cleric, he simply comes across as a belligerent idiot. He also says Andrastian lines in combat, and at one point says that someone is "with the Maker," so I'm honestly not seeing how Hawke could be an atheist.

Hawke isn't really allowed to be an atheist in the narrative.

So atheists IRL never say "oh my god" or "go to hell?" Because that's what the battle cries brought to mind.

[Thor Rand Al]

BobSmith101 wrote...
DA2 set you as Hawke the coward who ran from the battle of Ostigar. Making you a Seeker in ME3 is no more intrusive.

I know I shouldn't respond to this but it's obvious you didn't like DA2.  I for one loved the hell out of it and Hawke was no coward.  What was he suppose to do?  Fight a horde of ds coming when even our Wardens didn't even stick around?  He had a family he had to think about too or was he suppose to let them die.  He was trying to save his family, too me that's NOT a coward.  Get over it.
UGH why do I bother.

[AkiKishi]

Thor Rand Al wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...
DA2 set you as Hawke the coward who ran from the battle of Ostigar. Making you a Seeker in ME3 is no more intrusive.

I know I shouldn't respond to this but it's obvious you didn't like DA2.  I for one loved the hell out of it and Hawke was no coward.  What was he suppose to do?  Fight a horde of ds coming when even our Wardens didn't even stick around?  He had a family he had to think about too or was he suppose to let them die.  He was trying to save his family, too me that's NOT a coward.  Get over it.
UGH why do I bother.

Yes he is end of.. he ran away abondoned his king and his country.

It does not really address why being made to be a Seeker who believes in the maker is any different that being made to be a coward does it?

Modifié par BobSmith101, 11 avril 2012 - 06:32 .

[Thor Rand Al]

BobSmith101 wrote...


Yes he is end of.. he ran away abondoned his king and his country.

It does not really address why being made to be a Seeker who believes in the maker is any different that being made to be a coward does it?

Sorry you got a flaw in this theory.  Considering some didn't play a warrior/rogue Hawke who was in Ostagar that isn't exactly right.  Mage Hawke didn't go to Ostagar, couldn't go because of being an apostate.  Mage Hawke stayed home taking care of their family while Carver went n joined the army and even he came running bk home because he saw what had happened in Ostagar and saw that it was a losing battle. 
And I wasn't addressing the issue of religion. My point is being a Seeker your taking away the right to play as you want as far as a mage goes. 

[AkiKishi]

Thor Rand Al wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...


Yes he is end of.. he ran away abondoned his king and his country.

It does not really address why being made to be a Seeker who believes in the maker is any different that being made to be a coward does it?

Sorry you got a flaw in this theory.  Considering some didn't play a warrior/rogue Hawke who was in Ostagar that isn't exactly right.  Mage Hawke didn't go to Ostagar, couldn't go because of being an apostate.  Mage Hawke stayed home taking care of their family while Carver went n joined the army and even he came running bk home because he saw what had happened in Ostagar and saw that it was a losing battle. 
And I wasn't addressing the issue of religion. My point is being a Seeker your taking away the right to play as you want as far as a mage goes. 

Mage Hawke hid at home. Not really much difference.

I'm sure the writers can come up with any number of explanations on why a Seeker is a Mage. It's not really a big deal.

[LobselVith8]

CENIC wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

CENIC wrote...

There were a few lines you could choose that definitely felt atheist to me. Most of them involved dialogue with Grand Cleric Elthina, however, so a die-hard atheist player might have missed them by virtue of not wanting to get anywhere near that sanctimonious old bag.

I think you could say something about prayer being stupid, you could tell her she's useless (granted, this has more of a political spin than a religious one) and you could tell her the Hero of Fereldan ended the Blight, NOT the Maker.

Saying the Maker ended the Blight earns Friendship from Aveline, who seems to be atheist, but it doesn't really contest the Maker's existance from Hawke's view.

Choosing the "You're useless" line lead to Hawke screaming "Get out of my way!" Rather than leading to Hawke saying something intelligent about Elthina being passive and not doing her job as Grand Cleric, he simply comes across as a belligerent idiot. He also says Andrastian lines in combat, and at one point says that someone is "with the Maker," so I'm honestly not seeing how Hawke could be an atheist.

Hawke isn't really allowed to be an atheist in the narrative.

So atheists IRL never say "oh my god" or "go to hell?" Because that's what the battle cries brought to mind.

You seeemed to have missed the part of my statement where I addressed that Hawke says someone is "with the Maker," as it's part of my argument. Clearly, the writers didn't allow us to depict Hawke as an atheist, which is compounded by the issue of his religious-leaning battle dialogue.

[CENIC]

LobselVith8 wrote...

CENIC wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

CENIC wrote...

There were a few lines you could choose that definitely felt atheist to me. Most of them involved dialogue with Grand Cleric Elthina, however, so a die-hard atheist player might have missed them by virtue of not wanting to get anywhere near that sanctimonious old bag.

I think you could say something about prayer being stupid, you could tell her she's useless (granted, this has more of a political spin than a religious one) and you could tell her the Hero of Fereldan ended the Blight, NOT the Maker.

Saying the Maker ended the Blight earns Friendship from Aveline, who seems to be atheist, but it doesn't really contest the Maker's existance from Hawke's view.

Choosing the "You're useless" line lead to Hawke screaming "Get out of my way!" Rather than leading to Hawke saying something intelligent about Elthina being passive and not doing her job as Grand Cleric, he simply comes across as a belligerent idiot. He also says Andrastian lines in combat, and at one point says that someone is "with the Maker," so I'm honestly not seeing how Hawke could be an atheist.

Hawke isn't really allowed to be an atheist in the narrative.

So atheists IRL never say "oh my god" or "go to hell?" Because that's what the battle cries brought to mind.

You seeemed to have missed the part of my statement where I addressed that Hawke says someone is "with the Maker," as it's part of my argument. Clearly, the writers didn't allow us to depict Hawke as an atheist, which is compounded by the issue of his religious-leaning battle dialogue.

I guess a statement like that is much more loaded for you than it is for me. Fair enough!

[LobselVith8]

CENIC wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You seeemed to have missed the part of my statement where I addressed that Hawke says someone is "with the Maker," as it's part of my argument. Clearly, the writers didn't allow us to depict Hawke as an atheist, which is compounded by the issue of his religious-leaning battle dialogue.

I guess a statement like that is much more loaded for you than it is for me. Fair enough!

It's pretty cut and dry that Hawke says [someone] is with the Maker. There's not much room for interpretation there. In addition to the Andrastian battle cries, it's pretty self-evident. I don't see why you dismiss it so easily. It's not as though Hawke has the dialogue to say that he's atheist like The Warden did, or even Aveline.