255 réponses à ce sujet

[Rotkaepchen]

MortalEngines wrote...

I wouldn't say I like the ending per say. I'm just satisfied with it and have gotten over my initial disappointments. 

It is not an 'extension'. It's clarifying it and it actually fixes alot (assuming it will do what I think it will). Firstly, you learn (hopefully) what happens to the fleets left on earth and the situation with the relays and how it pans out (a 'plot hole' as some claim). Secondly you learn about Joker and the crew and the conclusion of their journey on the planet and also learn why Joker left like he did. Thirdly, we get closure on our LIs and companions and presumably their ends. Fourth, we see what happens to our Shepard if he does live, and we hopefully will also see how he is remembered when he dies. 

These are issues people have stated that they have with the end numerous times (especially the relays and the Joker/planet bit). To say it 'fixes' nothing is not true. A thing that alot of people hate is that their choices 'amounted to nothing'. An extra epilogue and cutscenes can fix this by showing the consequences of their actions beyond the final choices.

I get your point and you're right - perhaps they could fill some plotholes and perhaps some of you would argument - that's better than nil. But what about Shepard acting against his own character, what about being presented only with choices that contradict ALL that made out the ME lore.

How can one agree with BW wasting ressources by not adressing the real issue(s) ? Pls, don't bring that up - better than nothing !

[MortalEngines]

Rotkaepchen wrote...
I get your point and you're right - perhaps they could fill some plotholes and perhaps some of you would argument - that's better than nil. But what about Shepard acting against his own character, what about being presented only with choices that contradict ALL that made out the ME lore.

How can one agree with BW wasting ressources by not adressing the real issue(s) ? Pls, don't bring that up - better than nothing !

I've been dwelling on this a while and I'm at a cross-roads. I don't think the plot holes are as big as you make them out to be. But I still feel Bioware could of either presented it differently or set out more foreshadowing. 

Your first point. Shepard acting against his own character. Well this is arguable because I would say there are quite of few times where my Shepard doesn't act like I expect them to. It's unavoiable, since we all see our shepard differently. However, I understand the lack of investigative options (something that was initially intended but cut thanks to Mr. Hudson) and I agree.

But, I think regardless of the questions we could of asked, we would of still been given the same choices, for these are the only choices (according to the catalyst). Shepard cannot reprogramme the crucible and the catalyst will only settle on those 3 choices as assuming, he/she/it sees these are the only satisfactory ones. Our Shepard arguing will not change that.

Your second point. I'm failing to see what bits contridict ALL ME lore? Can you be more specific? The choices themselves cannot contradict lore as the catalyst and the crucible have no definate level of power, assumingly they are capable of anything the writer wants them to be capable of. Including initiating those 3 choices. Unless you're referring to something else.

I would argue that there is no clear cut 'real issues'. The stuff I suggested that would be addressed before are issues too and are just as 'real' as issues with the Catalyst. 

I'll add something to address your 'it's better than nothing' thing. I think from a business/social aspect, Bioware is in a tough spot. They have pressure from fans to change something and pressure from the media to do nothing or be called 'cop-outs'. This is their compromise. And while others call foul at the the term 'artistic intergity' I do think the Bioware team did actually enjoy the premise of their ending (plot holes and issues aside) and want to keep the core 'feel'. Or it could be PR spin, who knows. 

Modifié par MortalEngines, 09 avril 2012 - 12:17 .

[Drake_Hound]

Thank you for what ?
To help the noob director cut , cover his crime ?

Honestly people are you thankfull for that ?
Sorry want more alternative endings won´t settle for less now .

[billywaffles]

Rotkaepchen wrote...

billywaffles wrote...

I agree. Thank you bioware for your dedication, you have my support!

I don't care you mess up sometimes. We all commit mistakes, but that is what makes us human. No perfect game exists and no perfect game will ever exist.

You are still one of the best companies!

It's only human to screw up. Nobody has a problem with this.

But, if one screws up, the right course of action is to come forward and say "ok, we screwed up, we're sorry, we'll try to fix it asap".

What did we get instead was first total silence, then denial, then "you're a bunch of entitled brats, f**k y, we don't have to listen to you, look at the positive reviews of the (oblivious) mags". And now, the're forced to aknowledge that is a "small" prob with the ending(s). But are they willing to invest resources in it and make it right ? No, BW just dances around it.

Bioware was actually respectful with their fans and never insulted you or retakers. This extended cut will be released because they have listened to you. They have not said they are sorry, because they don't have to be sorry if they think that what they did was right.

You are taking this too far imo if you think this extended cut will be created just to ****** you off. It is fine if you hate the ending, but you honestly cannot say bioware wants to ruin your life because it is not true.

[Hitman2073]

Lord Phoebus wrote...

I'll say thank you to Bioware for doing something to address the quagmire they created. Whether it's something good or bad remains to be seen.

Granted. They´re doing "something". But as long they stick to thier *cough*..."artistic vision"...*cough* and thier old ass sh...y godchild or whatever this crap may be i say: Flesh out & poolish crap remains crap.

So, although i´ll check out that DLC (Coming sometime in summer), i highy doubt it´ll satisfy our personal closure and all our 100+ hours work in Shep, teammates, missions, seeding peace and bringing all races together through ME1 to ME3.

Once i really loved BW for thier outstanding skill in storytelling and giving us these "diamonds" called ME1, ME2 and ME3 (99 percent of the last).
Now....just sadness remains about what 1 percent can do to shatter the above mentioned "diamonds" to tiny, little pieces.

Just sad.

I´ll take the free DLC´s, because i purchased the game and see what they will do to the ME-Story. But paying for another ME DLC or anything else from BW / EA will not happen untill i can find my personal satisfying closure for my Shepard (I´d love a happy ending but i know it won´t be...so at least my personal ending should´nt leave me frustrated and WTF?!)

So, what we can hope for? That EA will grant enough "ressources & time" for BW to make something out of it. Like EA to BW: "Okay guys, we (Together) really messed this one up. We give you enough cash & time to do it better. Oh and btw, we...uh...."reconsidered" the artistic vision & three ending stuff.....well.....*assuming direct control*.....CUT IT and make something new!!! We love the IT idea a lot.....just a hint" 

*Gasp*....omg....i was dreaming!

Modifié par Hitman2073, 09 avril 2012 - 12:40 .

[Drake_Hound]

billywaffles wrote...

Rotkaepchen wrote...

billywaffles wrote...

I agree. Thank you bioware for your dedication, you have my support!

I don't care you mess up sometimes. We all commit mistakes, but that is what makes us human. No perfect game exists and no perfect game will ever exist.

You are still one of the best companies!

It's only human to screw up. Nobody has a problem with this.

But, if one screws up, the right course of action is to come forward and say "ok, we screwed up, we're sorry, we'll try to fix it asap".

What did we get instead was first total silence, then denial, then "you're a bunch of entitled brats, f**k y, we don't have to listen to you, look at the positive reviews of the (oblivious) mags". And now, the're forced to aknowledge that is a "small" prob with the ending(s). But are they willing to invest resources in it and make it right ? No, BW just dances around it.

Bioware was actually respectful with their fans and never insulted you or retakers. This extended cut will be released because they have listened to you. They have not said they are sorry, because they don't have to be sorry if they think that what they did was right.

You are taking this too far imo if you think this extended cut will be created just to ****** you off. It is fine if you hate the ending, but you honestly cannot say bioware wants to ruin your life because it is not true.

The moment they said extended CUT , no alternative endings that is insulting to me .
Cause some noob director who doesn´t even understand deus ex machina .
Now wants help in making his noob cut more plausible ?

That is a direct insult to me , so where are the artist who made the rest of the game ?
I cannot believe those would made such sloppy 1 time ending , especially after importing my old toons.
Having closure with a lot of stuff , just to hit the john doe and jane doe ending ?

This is not a rushed ending , this is simply a director cut who had no idea of what he or she was doing.
Other then making a casual ending . for people who have no attachment to the game .

[MortalEngines]

Drake_Hound wrote...
The moment they said extended CUT , no alternative endings that is insulting to me .
Cause some noob director who doesn´t even understand deus ex machina .
Now wants help in making his noob cut more plausible ?

That is a direct insult to me , so where are the artist who made the rest of the game ?
I cannot believe those would made such sloppy 1 time ending , especially after importing my old toons.
Having closure with a lot of stuff , just to hit the john doe and jane doe ending ?

This is not a rushed ending , this is simply a director cut who had no idea of what he or she was doing.
Other then making a casual ending . for people who have no attachment to the game .

A direct insult? What? Did Bioware specifically write your name down and say "Hey, We think [your name] is stupid and won't listen to them!". You need to calm down and realize that a) this is just one part of a game this is just a game. 

I'm not even sure what you're referring to as 'the artist'. There is no one sole person who makes the ME games, it's a whole team. And while I suspect not all the writers had a part in the ending, those who did, were also people who wrote other parts of the game. They did not simply loaf around and only write the ending. 

I agree it's not a rushed ending. It's an ending that some feel was incomplete or didn't make sense - while others feel is was satisifactory. I don't think anyone thinks it's the best thing since sliced bread, but there are varying degrees of opinions on how 'bad' it is.

Personally, it's not that bad. Not brilliant or memorable, but decent. Same with DA2. I still like both games.

[Drake_Hound]

And just a game is meant to be fun , the moment a game irritates me .
It stops being fun , so don´t try logic and reasoning am master of logic and reasoning.

When I smell a directors cut , it is nothing so obvious as this ending .
So don´t say it was a whole team who decided to make that ending .
Cause people who wrote those wonderfull characters dialogues for imports .
wonderfull twists , feel the ambiance of players for 99% of the game .
Can agree to that ending ?
That makes all there work fleshing out and details for nothing.
Then honestly the team needs to rethink , cause why let grunt live ?
Why have options to save miranda , save samara ..
To have you as star of the show end up with nothing , cause might as well have saved money.
And let them all die .

[MortalEngines]

Drake_Hound wrote...

And just a game is meant to be fun , the moment a game irritates me .
It stops being fun , so don´t try logic and reasoning am master of logic and reasoning.

Ur...what? Yes games are meant to be fun and I think quite alot of people thought Mass effect 3 was fun. If you didn't find it fun maybe you should go to a different genre or something. I'm not clear what your point is...

When I smell a directors cut , it is nothing so obvious as this ending .
So don´t say it was a whole team who decided to make that ending .
Cause people who wrote those wonderfull characters dialogues for imports .
wonderfull twists , feel the ambiance of players for 99% of the game .
Can agree to that ending ?
That makes all there work fleshing out and details for nothing.
Then honestly the team needs to rethink , cause why let grunt live ?
Why have options to save miranda , save samara ..
To have you as star of the show end up with nothing , cause might as well have saved money.
And let them all die .

Firstly this is not a 'director's cut' (whose the director?). Are you saying that no one else on the dev team saw the ending before the game launched? That is highly highly doubtful (firstly, the end needs to be bug tested like the rest of the game). Also Walters and Hudson (who would of definately been involved in the ending) have worked on all the games, and characters to some degree. To act like they had no part in anything is unfair to them and the team as a whole. 

I agree, there was a lack of closure about the impact of your choices. This is what the DLC seeks to retificy, I'm struggling to see your points.

[Rotkaepchen]

MortalEngines wrote...

Your first point. Shepard acting against his own character. Well this is arguable because I would say there are quite of few times where my Shepard doesn't act like I expect them to. It's unavoiable, since we all see our shepard differently. However, I understand the lack of investigative options (something that was initially intended but cut thanks to Mr. Hudson) and I agree.

But, I think regardless of the questions we could of asked, we would of still been given the same choices, for these are the only choices (according to the catalyst). Shepard cannot reprogramme the crucible and the catalyst will only settle on those 3 choices as assuming, he/she/it sees these are the only satisfactory ones. Our Shepard arguing will not change that.

Your second point. I'm failing to see what bits contridict ALL ME lore? Can you be more specific? The choices themselves cannot contradict lore as the catalyst and the crucible have no definate level of power, assumingly they are capable of anything the writer wants them to be capable of. Including initiating those 3 choices. Unless you're referring to something else.

I would argue that there is no clear cut 'real issues'. The stuff I suggested that would be addressed before are issues too and are just as 'real' as issues with the Catalyst. 

I'll add something to address your 'it's better than nothing' thing. I think from a business/social aspect, Bioware is in a tough spot. They have pressure from fans to change something and pressure from the media to do nothing or be called 'cop-outs'. This is their compromise. And while others call foul at the the term 'artistic intergity' I do think the Bioware team did actually enjoy the premise of their ending (plot holes and issues aside) and want to keep the core 'feel'. Or it could be PR spin, who knows. 

A few very good points there. But ...

Granted, I've never played shepard as renegade. My full paragon Shepard would never take disputable sh*t from some astro boy without ANY second thoughts. So we have three choices that spill doom over the whole galaxy, so I'm forced to see "my" Shepard do it ! How doesn't this contradict the ME lore ?

So, I've just made peace between the geth and the quarians, but hey ... the astroboy creates synthetics to kill organics in order to avert organics being killed by synthetics they created ... how sick is that and how doesn't this contradict the ME lore ?!

You may be right about BW being in a tough spot, corporate wise, but hey, do we have to swallow that ?

Modifié par Rotkaepchen, 09 avril 2012 - 12:42 .

[string3r]

Hopefully this will explain how two of my squadmates magically teleported to the Normandy and came back to life

[Drake_Hound]

Now since miss if want to use logic on all arguments , so with other playing the question game.

Fine how can a extended CUT with linear end choice save my multiple choices import save build up over 3 year of gaming ?
When extended the ending is the same !!
Since you are a logical person , there is no way to pull it off .
So how can the DLC reticify the linear ending on all choices ...
IT CANNOT , if that logic escapes you , then you are not as logical as you think you are .

[Documental]

Well this thread got derailed quickly

[Menethra]

string3r wrote...

Hopefully this will explain how two of my squadmates magically teleported to the Normandy and came back to life

Odds are they'll just have some video of joker picking them up but even then it doesn't explain how they casually get off the normandy on the jungle planet without a scratch expecially given that the normandy never had the medical facilities to heal kaiden / ashley >_>

[Drake_Hound]

What derailing there is no derailing it is called plain cold harsh truth .
that we want to escape realisme to be even confronted with sad sloppy marketing realisme in game .
Makes me even more angry , this thank you make me think people really lost the logic of it all .

So Bioware beter go back and fix alternative ending , cause there is no saving this director cut.

[MortalEngines]

Rotkaepchen wrote...
A few very good points there. But ...

Granted, I've never played shepard as renegade. My full paragon Shepard would never take disputable sh*t from some astro boy without ANY second thoughts. So we have three choices that spill doom over the whole galaxy, so I'm forced to see "my" Shepard do it ! How doesn't this contradict the ME lore ?

I understand and agree, there should of been more dialogue choices in terms of questions, not accepting it straight away. The DLC may retify this (Add more dialogue) or not. However, regardless this will not change the ending, because the Catalyst will not waiver. It believes these are the only alternatives and as such, Shepard has no choice but to comply and choose one or have the cycle continue. How your Shepard feels DOES make the ending feel more 'real' and respectful of our Shepards but the actually ending wouldn't change. So I don't see this as a huge issue but a relatively small one. 

So, I've just made peace between the geth and the quarians, but hey ... the astroboy creates synthetics to kill organics in order to avert organics being killed by synthetics they created ... how sick is that and how doesn't this contradict the ME lore ?!

You may be right about BW being in a tough spot, corporate wise, but hey, do we have to swallow that ?

Well, firstly. Reapers are not synthetics. They are sythentic-organics, what the Catalyst (and the reapers themselves) see as the final evolutionary stage. The ultimate beings. Also YOUR Shepard might of made peace with the Geth, but that doesn't mean everyone's has. My bf didn't have enough renegade/paragon points and ended up killing the entire qurian race.

The Catalyst is not necessarily wrong in any sense. While yes, the Geth only fight to survive, but in the end they are still fighting. And the Qurians would never have stopped if not for Shepard (if your Shepard is the ultimate paragon/renegade) so why is it far-fetched to assume that without Shepard or Reaper interference that the Geth would not of ultimately wiped out the Qurians (they were pretty close a few times) no matter their motives. In fact one can say that it is possible the Reaper cycle is what stopped the Geth ultimately beating the Qurians some time the future and so the cycle DID stop sythentics taking out one organic race anyway. (As without the Reapers, Shepard would not exist in their current form/power and there would be no need to unite races, allowing conflicts to continue and worsen)

And what would happen if the Qurians were to be wiped out. You do not think that the other organics would then attack too? We cannot assume that in the future there is no way that sythetics wouldn't wipe out organics. My only issue with it all is like I said before, I wish Bioware had foreshadowed or hinted more towards it. 

As for EDI, she is simply one AI. And one in very unique circumstances (plus she is infact Reaper tech, meaning she is not fully sythetic) so I don't think she really counts.

Modifié par MortalEngines, 09 avril 2012 - 01:02 .

[MortalEngines]

string3r wrote...

Hopefully this will explain how two of my squadmates magically teleported to the Normandy and came back to life

I always thought this was some sort of bug, it never happened in mine or my boyfriend's playthroughs.

Drake_Hound wrote...

Now since miss if want to use logic on all arguments , so with other playing the question game.

Fine how can a extended CUT with linear end choice save my multiple choices import save build up over 3 year of gaming ?
When extended the ending is the same !!
Since you are a logical person , there is no way to pull it off .
So how can the DLC reticify the linear ending on all choices ...
IT CANNOT , if that logic escapes you , then you are not as logical as you think you are .

 

Is there something wrong with me using logic? I thought that's how discussions work...

Firstly it cannot be a linear end choice if there is more than one choice. The endings, while looking the same in cutscenes, have very different consequences. Which will hopefully be shown in the DLC. And through a confirmed epilogue, it should wrap up at least some of the major choices you made in your '3 years of gaming'.

Yes the ending premise is the same. We just learn what our choices meant in the grand scheme of things/future. What is the issue?

The DLC doesn't need to rectify a linear ending because we don't have a linear ending. We have 3, that's not linear. Sure it's not 16 endings but it's not 1 either.

EDIT: I'm not even sure the term linear can be used here. Linear is something straight, one way. How can an ending be linear? Sure a level design can be linear but not an ending. Well whatever. 

Modifié par MortalEngines, 09 avril 2012 - 01:10 .

[Drake_Hound]

Juromaro wrote...

Drake_Hound wrote...

Now since miss if want to use logic on all arguments , so with other playing the question game.

Fine how can a extended CUT with linear end choice save my multiple choices import save build up over 3 year of gaming ?
When extended the ending is the same !!
Since you are a logical person , there is no way to pull it off .
So how can the DLC reticify the linear ending on all choices ...
IT CANNOT , if that logic escapes you , then you are not as logical as you think you are .

Mass Effect 1 ending: You either kill Sovereign with the Alliance Fleet or you kill Sovereign with the Council Fleet. A or B....Paragon/Renegade

Mass Effect 2 ending: You either Destroy the base, or you keep the base. A or B....Paragon/Renegade

Mass Effect 3: Paragon Ending, Renegade ending, or Green ending. A, B or C.


All of the games "3 years of gaming" all end the same way regardless. Keeping Kaiden alive or Ashley alive doesn't change the ending to ME1. Saving the Council or Killing the Council doesn't change the ending to ME2.

All the choices I made in ME1 amounted to cameo apperences in ME2, Choices in ME2 amounted to cameo apperences in ME3 except that they actually provided something useful in the War Assests.


So yes Bioware thank you for making a DLC that will answer questions people should have had the imagination to figure out themselves.

Pardon me in Mass EFFect 1 you either kill the sourveign or you die ! end of story !
So there was a choice ! even the bad ending .
Pardon me in Mass Effect 2 you can die , save the base , keep the base , let all crew die ...
So you could end shepard story there ..
Pardon me in Mass Effect 3 ... eh wait eh wait .. eh wait . oh yeah it is the same .
Oh terrific shepard died finally ... but wait lets think for a moment .

My kick ass shepard went trough all those heroic moments , to always die with the universe destroyed ?
Nah just a plot hole nobody would notice , if we blew up all the relays .
Nobody would notice how close the relay is to earth ....

Nah they are fools , we just toss them that they were just pretending .
Good sales pitch full of holes , try again .

[Rotkaepchen]

MortalEngines wrote...

As for EDI, she is simply one AI. And one in very unique circumstances (plus she is infact Reaper tech, meaning she is not fully sythetic) so I don't think she really counts.

Come on, don't say that, I love EDI, not only for her ******, but for hers' witted answears and (newly developed) humor.

[MortalEngines]

Rotkaepchen wrote...

MortalEngines wrote...

As for EDI, she is simply one AI. And one in very unique circumstances (plus she is infact Reaper tech, meaning she is not fully sythetic) so I don't think she really counts.

Come on, don't say that, I love EDI, not only for her ******, but for hers' witted answears and (newly developed) humor.

Haha, no, no, I love EDI. What I meant is I don't think she counts as in the whole 'sythentic vs organics' dispute seeing as she is in very unique circumstances. The reason I bought her up is people bring that up as another reason the Catalyst doesn't make sense.

I do wish people would actually call it/her/him the Catalyst, instead of Star Child. They act like it/he/she doesn't have a name. 

[Rotkaepchen]

MortalEngines wrote...

I do wish people would actually call it/her/him the Catalyst, instead of Star Child. They act like it/he/she doesn't have a name. 

I guess, it' hard to get warm with a character that's introduced only minutes ahead of the end.

[Drake_Hound]

Juromaro wrote...

Drake_Hound wrote...

Juromaro wrote...

Drake_Hound wrote...

Now since miss if want to use logic on all arguments , so with other playing the question game.

Fine how can a extended CUT with linear end choice save my multiple choices import save build up over 3 year of gaming ?
When extended the ending is the same !!
Since you are a logical person , there is no way to pull it off .
So how can the DLC reticify the linear ending on all choices ...
IT CANNOT , if that logic escapes you , then you are not as logical as you think you are .

Mass Effect 1 ending: You either kill Sovereign with the Alliance Fleet or you kill Sovereign with the Council Fleet. A or B....Paragon/Renegade

Mass Effect 2 ending: You either Destroy the base, or you keep the base. A or B....Paragon/Renegade

Mass Effect 3: Paragon Ending, Renegade ending, or Green ending. A, B or C.


All of the games "3 years of gaming" all end the same way regardless. Keeping Kaiden alive or Ashley alive doesn't change the ending to ME1. Saving the Council or Killing the Council doesn't change the ending to ME2.

All the choices I made in ME1 amounted to cameo apperences in ME2, Choices in ME2 amounted to cameo apperences in ME3 except that they actually provided something useful in the War Assests.


So yes Bioware thank you for making a DLC that will answer questions people should have had the imagination to figure out themselves.

Pardon me in Mass EFFect 1 you either kill the sourveign or you die ! end of story !
So there was a choice ! even the bad ending .
Pardon me in Mass Effect 2 you can die , save the base , keep the base , let all crew die ...
So you could end shepard story there ..
Pardon me in Mass Effect 3 ... eh wait eh wait .. eh wait . oh yeah it is the same .
Oh terrific shepard died finally ... but wait lets think for a moment .

My kick ass shepard went trough all those heroic moments , to always die with the universe destroyed ?
Nah just a plot hole nobody would notice , if we blew up all the relays .
Nobody would notice how close the relay is to earth ....

Nah they are fools , we just toss them that they were just pretending .
Good sales pitch full of holes , try again .

If you really believe the other games had different endings besides the "critical mission failure" you need to replay them. They all end the same regardless of the choices you believe you had. Shepard dying in 2 didn't change the ending. the base still got blown up or purged.


My Shepards went through all the endings

Paragon Shepard ascended to control
Paragade Shepard pulled a self sacrifice to bring garenteed peace.
Renegade Shepard did what he set out to do from the beginning and destroyed it.


The only thing any of the "choices' you make in any game is what's being said in the next game, that's it. Only in 3 did any of my choices provide something more useful than "Oh I'd like to join you but..." and "You stopped me from doing something horrible".


Can you show me any choice from any game that actually changed the ending besides the fail ending you get in 2?

Yes I can , Cause the game of the first two continued on ! wait what you didn´t know that ?
Yes it continued on , you were happily cruising around in your ship doing left over missions . persueing romances.
Oh wait you forget that part ?

Or unless you died , but I guess already one notion you have to admit already .
So how long before I break down all your hypothisis about choices ?
Cause honestly maybe you didn´t even play the game ?
When you doubt choices , to you it didn´t matter , same way you are going to argue in endless circle .
And I have to quote everything you admit being wrong ..

Since already 1-0 for me .