149 réponses à ce sujet

[Comsky159]

AtlasMickey wrote...

Ozzyfan223 wrote...
Bioware lacks humility,

I think you mean BioWare's fans.

Go away Mac.

As a game company, Bioware seems to be confusing pride with arrogance.

Modifié par Comsky159, 09 avril 2012 - 04:09 .

[Zix13]

MyChemicalBromance wrote...

The main problem is a lack of communication and clarity in the ending. If they had made it clearer on day 1 that the relays didn't vaporize everyone, the ending would not have seemed so bleak.

But this is only one of the many problems, and it was pretty clear that the relays did not go all arrival, however, small comfort when everyone starves to death or dies fighting each other for survival. 

[Taleroth]

The thing about saving everyone is that, in light of Mass Effect 1, Mass Effect 2 and Rannoch seem like growth.

Shepard accepts Virmire. Shepard does not need to accept it again. He plans better. He makes better choices. And he works out how to do thing better.

But more than that, outside of Virmire, none of those possible losses are really his choice. Just because he may or may not do a loyalty mission or upgrade doesn't mean he knew Jack would die. Just because he tells Legion to upload the code doesn't mean he didn't give the Quarians their way out. He still has the opportunity to try.

I don't like that the ending of Mass Effect 3 doesn't even allow you to try. I can accept the death of people on the Suicide Mission because the Collectors kill them. I can accept the death of the Quarians because they destroy themselves. I can't accept the destruction of the relays because Shepard is the one forced to do it. It is no consequence of ill-preperation. It is not the Reapers final act of vengeance upon those who destroy them. It is Shepard doing it because he's not allowed to say no.

Didn't one of the Doctors speak of "possibility space?" The ability to try is my possibility space.

Modifié par Taleroth, 09 avril 2012 - 04:09 .

[James9749]

What people don't seem to see at the moment is that EA can easily make a sequel in the ME universe with the ending they have now. Think about it. They threw all the previously established canon out the window, and said at the end, "It's just a story being told to a kid," and now they can, practically, do anything with the sequel. Sure, it's the end of Shepard's story, but who's to say they won't make a ME4 with this mess they created? It's so open ended, EA could hire anyone to do a sequel to the ME universe, and do ANYTHING with it.

[Dartbeast54q]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Dartbeast54q wrote...

I can agree.  I remember when I was given a choice between the Geth/Quarians I paused the game, stood up and paced for about 5 minutes deciding what to do, I then decided I had to go with the Quarians (mostly cause Tali was my LI) 

I was very happy to see in the next line of dialog I had the choice to broker peace.  I loved how choices we made, sometimes even small ones since I'm a stickler for doing every mission/side mission etc from 1 and 2 made large impacts on how things turned out while playing 3.  Situations with many variables and have many different outcomes are great, having a certain level of unpredictabilty and such.

I ended up watching the alternative outcomes on youtube, and one of my favourite things was watching the guy's dialogue wheel spin around maniacally.  He was clearly having a hard time picking which choice haha.

IMO the most powerful outcome is the destruction of the Quarians.  I actually find it very difficult to watch.  All the dust and sand in my room suddenly manifests itself in my eyes!  It's very annoying!

I've seen the renegade interupts for Mordin and Choosing Geth over Quarians only once on youtube, cant bear to watch them again.  Eventually down the road I'll do a renegade femshep and when ME3 comes around I'll play those scenes out, though it may have to be with eyes closed and room fully dusted before hand. IF i can bring myself to do it

[Sisterofshane]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

There's definitely something to be said about mixing up your plays. If someone expects something, the attempt is less likely to work: that's why you need to randomize and induce uncertainty, so that they can't be sure and thus can be taken off guard.

It works in sports, really, but scenario design as well. Frankly it was one of the bad aspects of ME1 and 2 that got turned around in ME3, which broke the 'Paragon is greater or equal to Renegade' balance issue.

I get the idea behind this - but one thing I would like to point out is that, in ME2, while the collectors seem strong and mysterious, I never got the idea that they were "unbeatable".  A little time and research (which apperently had never been done before), and then a little preparation, and they suddenly have less of an advantage.  Throw in a wee bit of good luck (not too much, but some), and it's reasonable to assume that we can come out of it alive.

In ME3, we are talking about this scenario, only on a galactic scale, against an enemy that we can't even LEARN anything meaningful about (Indoctrination).  Combine that with the fact that they overpower us in such a ridiculous manner that even WITH their tech (thannix Cannons), they can still pretty much blow us out of the water.  It would have felt terribly contrived if we were able to come out of this with absolutely no sacrifice.

[Velocithon]

I agree. To me though, they are more like that stubborn little jackass who never thinks he's wrong. Even when you prove to him he is incorrect, he's adamant he's right.

You just wanna slap the kid.

[Allan Schumacher]

Bantz wrote...

dude with all respect, if thane died you fked up go back and do it over again! Thane is a badass and must be around to live out his badassary in ME3.

I get the point that a "suicide mission" isn't as dramatic if you can all live. But I thought it was a tribute to how badass shepherd was and it added to his lore. Here's a guy that's built a career on doing them impossible. But I do see your point.

now go fix the suicide mission thing, thane must live. If you gotta lose someone kill jacob he's kind of a douche anyway.

Hahaha, I'm the type of person that, especially on my first playthrough, accepts the consequences of my decisions and never reloads unless I have to (i.e. game over).  I know not everyone is like that, but I started doing tha with KOTOR and it actually really made the experience so amazing for me.  I've stuck with it and don't regret it. 

I thought I might have lost Jacob in the next sequence actually.  But I empathized with Thane more, and since I chose him to go into the tube in part because of his illness, it was touching to feel that his death had meaning.  I actually got goosebumps seeing his name on the memorial on the Normandy in ME3.  Really nice touch.


I did have a fully successful playthrough, that also included Zaeed, as a Renegade shep.  Sadly though that save seemed to be AWOL so I haven't gotten a chance to bring it into ME3.

[CronoDragoon]

Sisterofshane wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

There's definitely something to be said about mixing up your plays. If someone expects something, the attempt is less likely to work: that's why you need to randomize and induce uncertainty, so that they can't be sure and thus can be taken off guard.

It works in sports, really, but scenario design as well. Frankly it was one of the bad aspects of ME1 and 2 that got turned around in ME3, which broke the 'Paragon is greater or equal to Renegade' balance issue.

I get the idea behind this - but one thing I would like to point out is that, in ME2, while the collectors seem strong and mysterious, I never got the idea that they were "unbeatable".  A little time and research (which apperently had never been done before), and then a little preparation, and they suddenly have less of an advantage.  Throw in a wee bit of good luck (not too much, but some), and it's reasonable to assume that we can come out of it alive.

In ME3, we are talking about this scenario, only on a galactic scale, against an enemy that we can't even LEARN anything meaningful about (Indoctrination).  Combine that with the fact that they overpower us in such a ridiculous manner that even WITH their tech (thannix Cannons), they can still pretty much blow us out of the water.  It would have felt terribly contrived if we were able to come out of this with absolutely no sacrifice.

Even if everyone had survived Earth, you've still had to sacrifice 100x as much as ME1 and ME2 combined throughout the game.

[VibrantYacht]

You sure "we" aren't being the spoiled brats? That's how it looks on the other side.

Modifié par VibrantYacht, 09 avril 2012 - 04:12 .

[garf]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

I see both sides of this analogy. On the one hand it is semi-applicable to Bioware. On the other hand it is semi-applicable to fans.

All I know is that it wasn't the ending that bothered me the most about this situation. It was the response from Bioware and the media. Bioware wouldn't own their mistake and the media helped them make excuses while demonizing anyone who disliked the ending.

For me I was numb because of the ending, then I saw the developer promises again and felt lied to, then the media called me an entitled, selfish, greedy whiner and I a got indignant, then Bioware refused to admit they made a mistake by falling back on crappy PR tactics/statements and ignoring the problem and I got angry.

Been there. own that t-shirt.

[shadowreflexion]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Freedom1 wrote...

nhsknudsen wrote...

The ending wouldn't have been so bad if... (yes it would still suck with a god kid, but expectations).

It was literally impossible to save everyone in the suicide mission, make both Miranda and Jack stand down happily. Make Legion and Tali stand down happily. Get both Krogan AND Salarian support and making peace between Geth and Quarians.

Now if we had forced choices of death like the VS and we had to make those choices throughout the series with forced loss people wouldn't expect the happy ending, at least not the happy ending where everyone is saved (that we care about; read; crew and Shepard)

Actually in the suicide mission, everyone survived and i didn't have the loyalty of miranda. granted maybe that was because i had her in my party fighting the human reaper but who knows. Point is, everyone survived.

i think the poster's point was that the ability to have pretty much unmitigated success in ME2 helped lead to people's expectations of being able to do so in ME3.

I actually was disappointed myself when I learned that ME2's suicide mission could be completed flawlessly (for me Thane died... ), as I was expecting it to require a sacrifice, similar to ME1.  Though while I think it makes for a less interesting story personally, I do think that that sequence is a well done demonstration of how to make interesting reactivity in a game.


EDIT:  I should have kept reading thread as this was already clarified :S

And that is what hurt the most. The self sacraficing didn't bother me, I have been ready to make that decision for years now. But in ME2, if one wanted their team to survive, they had to work for it. They had to listen to the characters, to read that little bit of information when it came down to the choice of who to give an assignment to. That's one of the issues with ME3. Some wanted to go that extra mile and put in the work to increase their survival rate. And then you had some like me who would have killed to hear the galaxy speak about me just like in DA:O if you sacraficed yourself.

I can still remember the first time I had to make that choice in ME1 between Kaidan and Ashley. Honestly, I thought I could have both survive so I became highly proficient with headshots. I must have tried that scenario 5 times before it sank in that no matter what, someone had to die, someone had to make that ultimate sacrafice for the good of the many. But alas, an ageless, mysterious child robbed me of going out in a blaze of glory. I fully expected to shoot a Cain from the inside of Harbinger, killing us both.

I even hoped that I would be the lone soldier tasked with destroying the Reapers alone (single player, no squad) like in the Arrival. Maybe even doing a high octane chase for Cerberus in the car, like in LotSB and that hurt.

After it was said that those two DLCs would be ground work for some of the gameplay in ME3, I didn't see it. But the art of sacraficing myself to finally have the final word would have been great.

If Anderson had to be there with me then it should have been a comrade death scene in Aliens, like this at 4:10.
www.youtube.com/watch

Modifié par shadowreflexion, 09 avril 2012 - 04:24 .

[Dartbeast54q]

Bantz wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Dartbeast54q wrote...

I can agree.  I remember when I was given a choice between the Geth/Quarians I paused the game, stood up and paced for about 5 minutes deciding what to do, I then decided I had to go with the Quarians (mostly cause Tali was my LI) 

I was very happy to see in the next line of dialog I had the choice to broker peace.  I loved how choices we made, sometimes even small ones since I'm a stickler for doing every mission/side mission etc from 1 and 2 made large impacts on how things turned out while playing 3.  Situations with many variables and have many different outcomes are great, having a certain level of unpredictabilty and such.

I ended up watching the alternative outcomes on youtube, and one of my favourite things was watching the guy's dialogue wheel spin around maniacally.  He was clearly having a hard time picking which choice haha.

IMO the most powerful outcome is the destruction of the Quarians.  I actually find it very difficult to watch.  All the dust and sand in my room suddenly manifests itself in my eyes!  It's very annoying!

the destruction of the quarians was powerful but for me having legion lash out to try and save his people only to get stabbed in the back (twice once literally once figuratively) by his friends and then turn to Tali and ask if he has a soul before he dies, was pretty damn powerful stuff.

Thats true as well.  Really unless you have the paragon/renegade to force a stand-down between the geth and quarians, while you might get one force, its a very bittersweet result, in which there is nothing wrong with that, since this is war and what not.  The fact there is choice and your previous choices matter is what is so good about Rannoch.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Yeah, I fully expected to be able to get out of ME3 unscathed and have the Commander Shepard song playing in the background,like in...pretty much every crap situation Shep gets into.

But no, colors.

Also I expected a reapers win ending

Modifié par Humanoid_Typhoon, 09 avril 2012 - 04:14 .

[Allan Schumacher]

Bantz...

the destruction of the quarians was powerful but for me having legion lash out to try and save his people only to get stabbed in the back (twice once literally once figuratively) by his friends and then turn to Tali and ask if he has a soul before he dies, was pretty damn powerful stuff.

Agree wholeheartedly. Seeing Tali empathize with him as she tearfully says yes is amazing. From a character perspective this is stuff I don't quite get from the peace ending.

Same goes with Mordin getting shot. Watching that I actually was hoping he'd STILL make it to the console and cure the genophage, just to spite Shepard. Watching him crawl with all that determination = shudder haha.

Still, anyone that shoots Mordin is a monster. >.>

[Taleroth]

Sisterofshane wrote...

 an enemy that we can't even LEARN anything meaningful about (Indoctrination). 

We learned many meaningful things about them. We dissected their armor, their weaponry, we have friends who have touched their minds, and we know how they reproduce. We knew what they were even before Starkid started spouting his nonsense. That's by the end of ME2.

They ceased being unknowable gods long ago. I knew more about Reapers than I know about my cat.

Modifié par Taleroth, 09 avril 2012 - 04:16 .

[garf]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Dartbeast54q wrote...

umm...apparently all that lag I got made me quote w/o words?  Anyway, I had said that I liked how the suicide mission was played out where you could get everyone through it.  However I would not have minded if you were required to leave someone behind like Virmire in ME1.

I think, like a lot of ideas, it's something that works really well when not overused.  As a gamer, I think I'd be disappointed if every BioWare game had it so that you could get through every big plot point with some sort of ideal solution.  It'd also be bad if you never had that hope that you might be able to pull through.

So I think I appreciated that everyone could survive more than I would have, because I was expecting NOT to.


I good example for myself through ME3 was Tuchanka and Rannoch.  With Tuchanka, I had no choice but to let Mordin, probably my favourite NPC from ME2, sacrifice himself to cure the genophage.  It was a great scene and gave me that lump in my throat.  Fast forward to Rannoch, and I when I was presented with only the two options initially, I was very "NO!  BOTH THOSE CHOICES SUCK!!! :crying:"  Buuuut, as it turns out it WAS possible to get an ideal solution and make peace, which pretty much had me high fiving myself for how awesome I was.  If I went into that sequence thinking "Eh, there's undoubtedly going to some way to make peace" instead of "I really really hope there's some way to make peace!!!!" I don't think the scene would have been as awesome.

I also think that that scene is a great example of reactivity.  Reading up about the various things that need to be accomplished, going back to ME2, in order for it all to work out is pretty damn awesome.  Rannoch is easily my favourite part ot the entire trilogy.  It probably seemed more awesome because I figured nothing would top Tuchanka earlier!

which touches on fan issues and the disconnect we don't understand from bioware.

how could the team that performed that bravura set of emotional gymnastics that are Tuchanka, and Rannoch. Bellly flop the landing? ... And NOT KNOW they blew it?

[TGOW]

Allan Schumacher wrote...
I think, like a lot of ideas, it's something that works really well when not overused.  As a gamer, I think I'd be disappointed if every BioWare game had it so that you could get through every big plot point with some sort of ideal solution.  It'd also be bad if you never had that hope that you might be able to pull through.

So I think I appreciated that everyone could survive more than I would have, because I was expecting NOT to.


I good example for myself through ME3 was Tuchanka and Rannoch.  With Tuchanka, I had no choice but to let Mordin, probably my favourite NPC from ME2, sacrifice himself to cure the genophage.  It was a great scene and gave me that lump in my throat.  Fast forward to Rannoch, and I when I was presented with only the two options initially, I was very "NO!  BOTH THOSE CHOICES SUCK!!! :crying:"  Buuuut, as it turns out it WAS possible to get an ideal solution and make peace, which pretty much had me high fiving myself for how awesome I was.  If I went into that sequence thinking "Eh, there's undoubtedly going to some way to make peace" instead of "I really really hope there's some way to make peace!!!!" I don't think the scene would have been as awesome.

I also think that that scene is a great example of reactivity.  Reading up about the various things that need to be accomplished, going back to ME2, in order for it all to work out is pretty damn awesome.  Rannoch is easily my favourite part ot the entire trilogy.  It probably seemed more awesome because I figured nothing would top Tuchanka earlier!

Allan are you the only BW employee to give a s*** about the opinions of the fans? or at least encourge discussion with us? I have been watching the forums like a hawk for weeks now and you are pretty much the only BW employee that gives enough of a damn to actually come and discuss things like this with us. Atleast when we have issues that are not resolved in under 140 characters. All we have ever had from the BW ME3 team was them riding down from their ivory tower to deliver the kings latest proclamation before riding back up into the cloud wrapped reaches of their artistic integrity after promising they were "listening to our feedback". 

It is really galling to be told this time and time again before they completely ignore what has been said, fart in our general direction, and then tell us we should be eternally grateful for their free DLC to fix a problem that should never have existed in the first place. It is worse when it is compounded by people like Colin Moriarty (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqgRP5_YKu0 by the way excellent parody here www.youtube.com/watch) who insult, degrade and outright patronise the efforts to draw attention to dislike for the ending. However as soon as someone dare adopt the same purile position as he against the endings decision we are all tarred with the same brush as "entitled" or "brats".

Anyway the real point of this post was to actually say thank you, thank you for not simply turning up your nose at us and walking away, thank you for taking the obvious time and effort to reply, engage in discussion and discourse with the rest of us chumps. But most of all thank you for just looking like you care about us.

Modifié par TGOW, 09 avril 2012 - 04:20 .

[Menalaos1971]

The only real problem that Bioware has is a Marketing problem. Since ME1 we've been sold the idea that our choices can impact our story. Especially leading up to the launch of ME3 it was said by people at Bioware again and again how varied our Endings could be based on our decisions across all three games. And most of us that have taken issue with the Ending of ME3 have done so because what we were sold through their marketing is not what we recieved in the final product. We got ONE ending crafted from someone's "artistic vision."

And also, we know from experiencing Bioware's other fantastic games (except for DA2), that Bioware is perfectly capable of creating games where our decisions really do impact the ending our character recieves in profound ways, and it is an enormous let down to get, instead of the idea we were sold, just one Ending conforming to some person's "vision." Especially one that so radically deviates from the tone and style of the three games in general, and leaves so many giant holes in the story with no explanation.

[Sajuro]

VibrantYacht wrote...

You sure "we" aren't being the spoiled brats? That's how it looks on the other side.

Is there a side where the fans whining don't look like spoiled brats? Other than their own little echo chamber threads of course.

[shepskisaac]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

From a character perspective this is stuff I don't quite get from the peace ending.

A small 'price' to pay to avoid having to watch Quarians or Geth die. Both scenes are just tragic to watch, even for me, Renegon player. So I'm good with peace option

Modifié par IsaacShep, 09 avril 2012 - 04:23 .

[Manton-X2]

garf wrote...
which touches on fan issues and the disconnect we don't understand from bioware.

how could the team that performed that bravura set of emotional gymnastics that are Tuchanka, and Rannoch. Bellly flop the landing? ... And NOT KNOW they blew it?

And right there is truly the question that all the other stuff swirling around is based on.  You can take it all away and boil it down to this one thing.  How is it possible that the people who created such an amazing game and franchise have such a HUGE disconnect from their customers and fans when it comes to this ending.  A disconnect so mind-blowingly huge that they don't even realize that they have an issue and still definitely point to "75 Perfect Scores!" as a badge of honor.

That is what boggles my mind.

[garf]

Taleroth wrote...

The thing about saving everyone is that, in light of Mass Effect 1, Mass Effect 2 and Rannoch seem like growth.

Shepard accepts Virmire. Shepard does not need to accept it again. He plans better. He makes better choices. And he works out how to do thing better.

But more than that, outside of Virmire, none of those possible losses are really his choice. Just because he may or may not do a loyalty mission or upgrade doesn't mean he knew Jack would die. Just because he tells Legion to upload the code doesn't mean he didn't give the Quarians their way out. He still has the opportunity to try.

I don't like that the ending of Mass Effect 3 doesn't even allow you to try. I can accept the death of people on the Suicide Mission because the Collectors kill them. I can accept the death of the Quarians because they destroy themselves. I can't accept the destruction of the relays because Shepard is the one forced to do it. It is no consequence of ill-preperation. It is not the Reapers final act of vengeance upon those who destroy them. It is Shepard doing it because he's not allowed to say no.

Didn't one of the Doctors speak of "possibility space?" The ability to try is my possibility space.

It's worse than that. here's why. On the top of the citidel. did you 'let' garrus win or did you take that final shot. Do you understand why people who claim to love and definitely respect Garrus would refuse to 'let' him win? and if they did instead choose to flub the shot can you imagine what it would do to Garrus if he ever found out?

Even if we count the ending as a win... even if we do so... it's handed TO us by our apparant ultimate enemy. the deep dark hand behind the reapers shows up and 'LET's' us win.  I'm amazed no one saw how toxic that would be.

Modifié par garf, 09 avril 2012 - 04:32 .

[garf]

TGOW wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...
I think, like a lot of ideas, it's something that works really well when not overused.  As a gamer, I think I'd be disappointed if every BioWare game had it so that you could get through every big plot point with some sort of ideal solution.  It'd also be bad if you never had that hope that you might be able to pull through.

So I think I appreciated that everyone could survive more than I would have, because I was expecting NOT to.


I good example for myself through ME3 was Tuchanka and Rannoch.  With Tuchanka, I had no choice but to let Mordin, probably my favourite NPC from ME2, sacrifice himself to cure the genophage.  It was a great scene and gave me that lump in my throat.  Fast forward to Rannoch, and I when I was presented with only the two options initially, I was very "NO!  BOTH THOSE CHOICES SUCK!!! :crying:"  Buuuut, as it turns out it WAS possible to get an ideal solution and make peace, which pretty much had me high fiving myself for how awesome I was.  If I went into that sequence thinking "Eh, there's undoubtedly going to some way to make peace" instead of "I really really hope there's some way to make peace!!!!" I don't think the scene would have been as awesome.

I also think that that scene is a great example of reactivity.  Reading up about the various things that need to be accomplished, going back to ME2, in order for it all to work out is pretty damn awesome.  Rannoch is easily my favourite part ot the entire trilogy.  It probably seemed more awesome because I figured nothing would top Tuchanka earlier!

Allan are you the only BW employee to give a s*** about the opinions of the fans? or at least encourge discussion with us? I have been watching the forums like a hawk for weeks now and you are pretty much the only BW employee that gives enough of a damn to actually come and discuss things like this with us. Atleast when we have issues that are not resolved in under 140 characters. All we have ever had from the BW ME3 team was them riding down from their ivory tower to deliver the kings latest proclamation before riding back up into the cloud wrapped reaches of their artistic integrity after promising they were "listening to our feedback". 

It is really galling to be told this time and time again before they completely ignore what has been said, fart in our general direction, and then tell us we should be eternally grateful for their free DLC to fix a problem that should never have existed in the first place. It is worse when it is compounded by people like Colin Moriarty (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqgRP5_YKu0 by the way excellent parody here www.youtube.com/watch) who insult, degrade and outright patronise the efforts to draw attention to dislike for the ending. However as soon as someone dare adopt the same purile position as he against the endings decision we are all tarred with the same brush as "entitled" or "brats".

Anyway the real point of this post was to actually say thank you, thank you for not simply turning up your nose at us and walking away, thank you for taking the obvious time and effort to reply, engage in discussion and discourse with the rest of us chumps. But most of all thank you for just looking like you care about us.

THIS....

Bioware should pay you your weight in gold. You and few others like you... (Patrick Weekes comes to mind) are the only reason Bioware has even a chance to win back its bewildered and wounded (and yes ANGRY) fans.