149 réponses à ce sujet

[Taleroth]

garf wrote...

It's worse than that. here's why. On the top of the citidel. did you 'let' garrus win or did you take that final shot. Do you understand why people who claim to love and definitely respect Garrus would refuse to 'let' him win? and if they did instead choose blew can you imagine what it would do to Garrus if he ever found out?

Even if we count the ending as a win... even if we do so... it's handed TO us by our apparant ultimate enemy. the deep dark hand behind the reapers shows up and 'LET's' us win.  I'm amazed no one saw how toxic that would be.

Yeah, you're right on that. I want to say that's a classic faux paux. But I honestly can't think of too many works I've experienced that did that. It's one of those things someone does the first time they DM, they create this villain to be their representative and decide the game has to end on their terms.

If I want to be nice, I'll say that they needed to introduce the catalyst at the same time as they bring in an infodump. But they still should have treated the scenario as far more adversarial than they did. Had Shepard argue. Have Shepard fight. But they put the kid into that shape like they wanted us to like this guy.

Modifié par Taleroth, 09 avril 2012 - 04:36 .

[SupR G]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

i think the poster's point was that the ability to have pretty much unmitigated success in ME2 helped lead to people's expectations of being able to do so in ME3.

I actually was disappointed myself when I learned that ME2's suicide mission could be completed flawlessly (for me Thane died... ), as I was expecting it to require a sacrifice, similar to ME1.  Though while I think it makes for a less interesting story personally, I do think that that sequence is a well done demonstration of how to make interesting reactivity in a game.


EDIT:  I should have kept reading thread as this was already clarified :S

But that was the beauty of ME2, was that it gave you the option to have the kind of ending that you wanted. You could go for the impossible-odds, flawless nobody dies ending, or sacrifice someone and make everything seem more important or make that person worth avenging. Real choice is a beautiful thing.

Modifié par SupR G, 09 avril 2012 - 04:37 .

[Aweus]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Agree wholeheartedly. Seeing Tali empathize with him as she tearfully says yes is amazing. From a character perspective this is stuff I don't quite get from the peace ending.

Same goes with Mordin getting shot. Watching that I actually was hoping he'd STILL make it to the console and cure the genophage, just to spite Shepard. Watching him crawl with all that determination = shudder haha.

Still, anyone that shoots Mordin is a monster. >.>

I agree. My "main" Shepard is a renegade and I picked red options most of the time. I was trying to push the sabotage cure choice till the end but when the option to shoot Mordin popped out I just could not do it. I let him go up there and do the job. And my Shepard was double angry becouse of that. Not only he lost another friend but also failed to do "whatever it takes" becouse of the weakness (could not shoot his friend). That makes my Shepard feel more "human".

Things like this are really a good thing to build a story which is bittersweet in a good sense. I can say same thing about Williams/Alenko choice from ME1 and several others. But one of my problems with the ending is that I really did not found compelling choices to make. Even if I would accept the Starchild thing and all them holes... still those choices I get are not compelling enough. I choose color of explosions and what else? All other immediate effects are same. No matter what, Reapers are out of the equation, they fly away or get nuked. Relays always go boom and Normandy always ends up... somewhere. I would like my choices to matter NOW, not in 10,000 years. Also where is the paragon/renegade dichotomy which was always a big focus of the series? I was 100% certain that how the game will "brand" your character based on choices from all 3 games will make an impact on the ending. Whether you live or you die, if all ends good or grim or bittersweet, it should all be based on stack of choices. But noooo! Instead no matter what I did I get 3 catwalks and all of them leads to same ending but with different fireworks. I want to cry

Modifié par Aweus, 09 avril 2012 - 05:03 .

[CronoDragoon]

Aweus wrote...
I agree. My "main" Shepard is a renegade and I picked red options most of the time. I was trying to push the sabotage cure choice till the end but when the option to shoot Mordin popped out I just could not do it. I let him go up there and do the job. And my Shepard was double angry becouse of that. Not only he lost another friend but also failed to do "whatever it takes" becouse of the weakness (could not shoot his friend). That makes my Shepard feels more "human".

I just wanted to say that this was really interesting to read. The various ways that people can interpret their decisions in these games is just so impressive. 

[Bantz]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Bantz...

the destruction of the quarians was powerful but for me having legion lash out to try and save his people only to get stabbed in the back (twice once literally once figuratively) by his friends and then turn to Tali and ask if he has a soul before he dies, was pretty damn powerful stuff.

Agree wholeheartedly. Seeing Tali empathize with him as she tearfully says yes is amazing. From a character perspective this is stuff I don't quite get from the peace ending.

Same goes with Mordin getting shot. Watching that I actually was hoping he'd STILL make it to the console and cure the genophage, just to spite Shepard. Watching him crawl with all that determination = shudder haha.

Still, anyone that shoots Mordin is a monster. >.>

see my problem is I can't kill the quarians because I'm a talimancer, but I can't let the geth get destroyed because Legion is awesome and after the mission inside the geth mind I really began to feel sorry for them (brilliant story telling on biowares part here btw). I really felt like they were innocent all along but no one ever understood it because no one ever bothered to look. So for me peace was the only option.

Though if i ever do a 3rd playthrough I may just kill Legion so that his death doesn't have to be pointless. (Ican't accept any ending other then destroy)

[Allan Schumacher]

garf wrote...

THIS....

Bioware should pay you your weight in gold. You and few others like you... (Patrick Weekes comes to mind) are the only reason Bioware has even a chance to win back its bewildered and wounded (and yes ANGRY) fans.

Suddenly I'm debating if this weight loss goal is a good idea....

I've seen many other posts say thanks and I've kind of just skimmed over it, but you're welcome.  It started as I was reading (been lurking off and on since I beat the game) and felt like commenting on a post regarding the destroy ending.

It's as much a kudos to you guys as well though for providing some interesting discussion.  My Easter weekend had no real plans (I'm THAT cool) and now most of it is gone and it's been fun.  Last time I posted this regularly was probably KOTOR, long before I started here

[upsettingshorts]

garf wrote...

THIS....

Bioware should pay you your weight in gold. You and few others like you... (Patrick Weekes comes to mind) are the only reason Bioware has even a chance to win back its bewildered and wounded (and yes ANGRY) fans.

There are and were quite a lot of BioWare people on the DA team who spoke up with frequency and engaged the fans - lead writer David Gaider still does especially, as well as John Epler - but some of the feedback for DA2 got so nasty and personal that it really turned off many of them from interacting with fans the way you guys want and seem to appreciate.

Mike Laidlaw used to be a regular poster until the attacks on him started getting truly out of hand.  I mean, it's not like Mr Laidlaw - and others whose posting frequency has fallen off dramatically - actually said that was the reason he stepped back from the boards but it seems pretty obvious.  

So on some level, the fans get the personal feedback they deserve.  Which isn't to say that everyone with a BioWare tag ought to be treated with kid gloves and kowtowing in the aisles, but it does mean that expecting them to have infinite patience for certain behavior is too much.

Most BioWare people are like Patrick and Allan.  You know, they're people.  Some haven't had anything close to a positive experience dealing with fans on the boards or in the public sphere - most notably Jennifer Hepler.  Do you think that hasn't had an impact?  Whenever I see a guy like Allan posting out in the open on the BSN I'm always surprised and impressed, because I've seen firsthand the kind of **** people with BioWare tags get thrown at them, most of it totally undeservedly and with a shocking amount of malice behind it.

However it should be pointed out that the Mass Effect team, also, has never had the kind of presence on the board that the DA team seems to have, and you rarely see anyone other than Casey Hudson publicly discussing the series with fans (or the public) on any level, aside from community managers and the like.  Few who actually made development or narrative decisions in the game itself come here to advocate for their point of view like the DA team has.

It'd be nice if those responsible for the decisions surrounding the ending controversy would come forward and bear the brunt of criticism and advocate for their decisions, but it's been a corporate response, and the whole corporation gets to take it on the chin.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 09 avril 2012 - 05:36 .

[Ender99]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

I see both sides of this analogy. On the one hand it is semi-applicable to Bioware. On the other hand it is semi-applicable to fans.

All I know is that it wasn't the ending that bothered me the most about this situation. It was the response from Bioware and the media. Bioware wouldn't own their mistake and the media helped them make excuses while demonizing anyone who disliked the ending.

For me I was numb because of the ending, then I saw the developer promises again and felt lied to, then the media called me an entitled, selfish, greedy whiner and I a got indignant, then Bioware refused to admit they made a mistake by falling back on crappy PR tactics/statements and ignoring the problem and I got angry.

This. Completely.

Sure, I was confused and slightly depressed because of the ending. It wasn't until I saw the developer's lies and how their PR team was handling things, that I got angry.

[Salfin]

This. Completely.

Sure, I was confused and slightly depressed because of the ending. It wasn't until I saw the developer's lies and how their PR team was handling things, that I got angry.

The statements issued by various people in BW didn't really help that's for sure. I know I was annoyed at them. The fans were craving some kind of input and we kept getting long statements that didn't really tell us anything.

We can all move past it now perhaps.

Modifié par Salfin, 09 avril 2012 - 05:23 .

[Xandurpein]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I've seen many other posts say thanks and I've kind of just skimmed over it, but you're welcome.  It started as I was reading (been lurking off and on since I beat the game) and felt like commenting on a post regarding the destroy ending.

It's as much a kudos to you guys as well though for providing some interesting discussion.  My Easter weekend had no real plans (I'm THAT cool) and now most of it is gone and it's been fun.  Last time I posted this regularly was probably KOTOR, long before I started here

I just want to chime in. I understand that people on the Mass Effect team are wary of the boards right now. Who wants a lot of snarky flak? There's probably PR issues and whatnot too to deal with. But at the same time, I think that many fans are even more upset by the way Bioware have handled the disappointment with the ending as the actual ending. So far it feels like the devs been digging trenches rather than talk about it. Just reading Bioware's official statements I can't be sure if they agree the ending was weak or not, and that makes me wonder how we managed to end up on different planets, so to speak. We need more communication, I think.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 09 avril 2012 - 05:39 .

[Manton-X2]

Xandurpein wrote...
I just want to chime in. I understand that people on the Mass Effect team are wary of the boards right now. Who wants a lot of snarky flak? There's probably PR issues and whatnot too to deal with. But at the same time, I think that many fans are even more upset by the way Bioware have handled the disappointment with the ending as the actual ending. So far it feels like the devs been digging trenches rather than talk about it. Just reading Bioware's official statements I can't be sure if they agree the ending was weak or not, and that makes me wonder how we managed to end up on different planets, so to speak. We need more communication, I think.

I think that's fair to say.  I am never one to condone the gnashing of teeth and the throwing of objects (virtual or real) at people over a disagreement.  But Bioware has to bear a good chunk of that responsibility just as the fans do (especially those who are clearly out of control). Instead of talking to the customers/fans when this started (and it started immediately ... take a look at the User Reviews on the forum ... straight out the gate people were not happy) they circled the wagons and from there things just went downhill fast.  

Even after PAX East I still get the feeling that they really don't understand why the fans are mad or even why they need to do this DLC.

[Grimskull89]

Manton-X2 wrote...

I think that's fair to say.  I am never one to condone the gnashing of teeth and the throwing of objects (virtual or real) at people over a disagreement.  But Bioware has to bear a good chunk of that responsibility just as the fans do (especially those who are clearly out of control). Instead of talking to the customers/fans when this started (and it started immediately ... take a look at the User Reviews on the forum ... straight out the gate people were not happy) they circled the wagons and from there things just went downhill fast.  

Even after PAX East I still get the feeling that they really don't understand why the fans are mad or even why they need to do this DLC.

Oh to be a fly on a wall in their building... I really wanna know what the internal dialogue is. Because the PR stuff they keep spouting seems empty..

*edit darn quote box..

Modifié par Grimskull89, 09 avril 2012 - 06:00 .

[OhoniX]

Is this the case with Bioware? Think about, aside from DAII (which, in my opinion, they suspected such backlash for the risks they took), Bioware hasn't really been the bane of such serious, unified backlash.

I believe this is the first time where Bioware has had it handed to them, and that what they thought was great, really wasn't. And they can't face the facts, so they hide behind their "Artistic integrity" and seem to completely contradict themselves when it comes to them being dedicated to their fans.

I get the feeling Bioware has never had to experience this kind of thing before, where their grand centerpiece goes up in flames, and all they can do is go about acting as if they are not the ones to blame. When a spoiled kid is so used to getting what he wants, when the time comes that he is told "no" he throws a hissy fit and continue to live in complete denial of the fact that life doesn't always give you what you want.

Bioware lacks humility, and I'm sorry to say it. No company that truly believes in its fanbase would point to critics reviews and wave their banner of "artistic intergrity". I company that really cares about itself, and its fans, is one that, yes, can be proud of it's creation, but also have the guts to stand up and say they messed up.

Lol, the irony of this post is magnificent, to claim that Bioware is the spoiled kid in this situation, when in fact it's a portion of the community that is behaving as such.

[Manton-X2]

OhoniX wrote...
Lol, the irony of this post is magnificent, to claim that Bioware is the spoiled kid in this situation, when in fact it's a portion of the community that is behaving as such.

I know it's easy to point at the more childish and less rationale members of the community, but they're the minority.  I have to agree to a certain point with the OP.  The Mass Effect team *is* acting childish.  Think about this; people are saying that this game belongs to Bioware and the players are whiny and entitled to think otherwise.  But where did the players get the idea that they had some ownership of it?  That one is simple and written in thousands of places:  from Bioware. 

For 5 years, everytime they opened their mouths about the game, they talked about how this game belongs as much to the players as to Bioware.  This was a collaborative effort between them and us.  We had as much right to the story as they did.  The words differed as well as the Bioware employees saying them, but the message was loud and clear.  Top to bottom they said it as one, we were partners in this journey.

Cut to the end of ME3 and the displeasure with it.  And what was the Mass Effect team's immediate response? "This is our game.  This is our vision.  It's not yours and it ended the way we wanted and you have no say in it."

All you need is plugging up of the ears and a "lalalalalalala .. can't hear you" and that's a tantrum.  Instead of talking to their customers, they talked at them and threw up the defenses.  Not the most mature thing I've ever seen.

[Aweus]

OhoniX wrote...
Lol, the irony of this post is magnificent, to claim that Bioware is the spoiled kid in this situation, when in fact it's a portion of the community that is behaving as such.

The analogy is wrong. A kid is spoiled when he demands things that he does not deserve or that are not easily obtainable. Furhermore, if a parent as an act of discipline says "no" to a kid, that kid has nothing to say about it. For as long as he is not an adult he should obey. It is parents right and responsibility to raise a kid properly. The producer-customer relation is totally different. When customers did not got a product they expected they have right to ask for a change. Will this change be granted by the producer? That depends only from the producer and should be based on how many of customers are in fact displeased. But even if everyone would be displeased they can still choose to say "no". But unlike a spoiled kid would have nothing to say against this, customers can step away at any given time they want. If anything, I would read current passion of Retake as a sign of devotion. Most of us care about Bioware and we are not ready to simply let go. If some random girl I hooked up with cheated on me few days later I would just LOL at her and tell her to never see me again. But if a girl with who I had a long lasting and satisfying in every way relationship suddenly went on an affair with another guy, at very least I would try to investigate and perhaps even try to work this out.

[OhoniX]

I know it's easy to point at the more childish and less rationale members of the community, but they're the minority.

I know that the majority are fine with the ending, but the anti-ending people are just so noisy, and entitled.

For 5 years, everytime they opened their mouths about the game, they talked about how this game belongs as much to the players as to Bioware.

Yeah, which I imagine is where the spoiled and entitled behavior comes from. If mommy gives baby a treat every time he cries for most of his life, and then when the baby is five they decide he shouldn't have a treat this time, then baby's going to throw a fit, so there is some measure of bad parenting involved, but the baby is still being a baby about it, and still doesn't deserve his candy.

The analogy is wrong. A kid is spoiled when he demands things that he does not deserve or that are not easily obtainable.

That's why the analogy is not flawed. A new ending is not deserved, nor easily obtainable.

If anything, I would read current passion of Retake as a sign of devotion. Most of us care about Bioware and we are not ready to simply let go.

Read my sig.

Modifié par OhoniX, 09 avril 2012 - 07:04 .

[Aweus]

OhoniX wrote...
That's why the analogy is not flawed. A new ending is not deserved, nor easily obtainable.

 
I dare to say you are wrong. Any fix to a product that the customer did not like is deserved. This does of course not mean that Bioware is enforced to make it. They are not. Things like taste are not something you can measure with law. If you release a faulty car engine you can get sued for that and legal system has tools to enforce you to fix it. In case of things like entartainment the only measure of your success is customer satisfaction. I dont know how many fans are disliking the ME3 ending. You claim that majority likes it. Why? How is your figure in any way more legitimate from those which states that 90% did not like it? In fact I believe both of them are wrong. And that the dissatisfaction rate is simply "high". If it would not be high, Bioware would not announce the Extended Cut. And yes, the fix is easily obtainable. We are only asking for revised ending, not to remake the entire game. Hell, most people would be willing to pay for it. The fact that Bioware wants to release it for free is a nice touch but we must first see what the content in question will bring.

OhoniX wrote... 
Read my sig.

I read. And what? I guess you are trying to imply that a fan of Bioware should mindlessly accept anything that gets thrown in his way. OK, how about I shall rebrand myself? I am NOT a fan of Bioware. I am a fan of Mass Effect.

[Lambda Diamond]

Disagree Mass Effect 1 Mass Effect 2 were very good games. (above good what am I saying)
Mass Effect 3 is 95% good, the 5% is the ending which is getting Mass Effect 3: extended cut.
Lets not forget SWTOR and all there other great games...
Bioware and there employees are great! EA is bad imo.

[cutegigi]

ah yes.
again with this minority vs majority claim.


[quote]OhoniX wrote...

[quote]

I know it's easy to point at the more childish and less rationale members of the community, but they're the minority. [/quote]

I know that the majority are fine with the ending, but the anti-ending people are just so noisy, and entitled.

[quote]
For 5 years, everytime they opened their mouths about the game, they talked about how this game belongs as much to the players as to Bioware. /quote]

Yeah, which I imagine is where the spoiled and entitled behavior comes from. If mommy gives baby a treat every time he cries for most of his life, and then when the baby is five they decide he shouldn't have a treat this time, then baby's going to throw a fit, so there is some measure of bad parenting involved, but the baby is still being a baby about it, and still doesn't deserve his candy.

[quote]
The analogy is wrong. A kid is spoiled when he demands things that he does not deserve or that are not easily obtainable.[/quote]

That's why the analogy is not flawed. A new ending is not deserved, nor easily obtainable.

[quote]If anything, I would read current passion of Retake as a sign of devotion. Most of us care about Bioware and we are not ready to simply let go.[/quote]

Read my sig.



[/quote]

[OhoniX]

I dare to say you are wrong. Any fix to a product that the customer did not like is deserved.

No. "The customer is always right" is one of the most ignorant and abused axioms in commercial history. "The customer is occasionally right," would be more accurate. This is not one of those situations.

I dont know how many fans are disliking the ME3 ending. You claim that majority likes it. Why?

Well, it's a fact, an absolute fact, that the majority of ME3 players are at least silent on the issue. By the most generous measurements less than 10% of the playerbase have expressed any dissatisfaction with the game's ending in a public manner, and the more likely figures lower that to as little as 1%. That is a minority. For Enders to claim mandate to any group larger than that would be hyperbole.

How is your figure in any way more legitimate from those which states that 90% did not like it?

Math. 10% is a smaller number than 90%.

And yes, the fix is easily obtainable. We are only asking for revised ending, not to remake the entire game.

Oh, is that all? So thousands of manhours writing scenarios, building "sets", animating cutscenes, recording dialog, etc., rather than hundreds of thousands of manhours creating an entirely new game. Well, when you put it like that it becomes totally reasonable.

I read. And what? I guess you are trying to imply that a fan of Bioware should mindlessly accept anything that gets thrown in his way. OK, how about I shall rebrand myself? I am NOT a fan of Bioware. I am a fan of Mass Effect.

Same thing as far as the sig goes. I'm not saying that ME fans need to enjoy the ending, I'm not saying that they couldn't log their displeasure with the ending, ONCE, but to harp on and on about it for weeks on end is not doing anyone any good. All it's doing it breaking down Bioware's ability to succeed on future projects. If anyone claims to be a fan of Bioware, or of Mass Effect, then they have no justification whatsoever for continuing any campaigns against the ME3 they were given beyond this point. It's like trying to claim that you beat your friend up, but it was "for his own good," and you're still totally his friend.

[Mad-Hamlet]

I know it's easy to point at the more childish and less rationale members of the community, but they're the minority.

[Aweus]

 

No. "The customer is always right" is one of the most ignorant and abused axioms in commercial history. "The customer isoccasionally ]This[/color] is not one of those situations.  

"Customer is always right" mantra touches a bit different issue and I would actually agree with the fact that it is not golden. But that mantra means that whatever customer says you must do as he asks. Which I already stated is not case of Bioware and ME3. They are not forced to help us. Which does not mean that our dissatisfaction is not legitimate.

 

Well, it's a fact, an ]absolute[/color] fact, that the majority of ME3 players are at least silent on the issue. By the most generous measurements less than 10% of the playerbase have expressed any dissatisfaction with the game's ending in a public manner, and the more likely figures lower that to as little as 1%. That is a minority. For Enders to claim mandate to any group larger than that would be hyperbole. 

 
You are making a cardinal mistake. You assume that everyone who are silent are liking the ending. I dont want to sound rude. But this is just a totally wrong assumption. A fallacy. Please dont use fallacies in discussions.
 

Math. 10% is a smaller number than 90%. 

 
Yes. 10% is smaller from 90%. Now please see above point. 
 

Oh, is that all? So thousands of manhours writing scenarios, building "sets", animating cutscenes, recording dialog, etc., rather than hundreds of thousands of manhours creating an entirely new game. Well, when you put it like that it becomes totally reasonable. 

 
Which is why Bioware should be payed for this work. Payed for a work for which there is big demand. I dont know why they decided to release it for free. And in fact I was commenting on that days ago that I personally dont like it becouse this looks like a bandaid. I would prefer something more than bandaid. A proper dressing if we are to stick with medical terms.

 

Same thing as far as the sig goes. I'm not saying that ME fans need to enjoy the ending, I'm not saying that they couldn't log their displeasure with the ending, ONCE, but to harp on and on about it for weeks on end is not doing anyone any good. All it's doing it breaking down Bioware's ability to succeed on future projects. If anyone claims to be a fan of Bioware, or of Mass Effect, then they have no justification whatsoever for continuing any campaigns against the ME3 they were given beyond this point. It's like trying to claim that you beat your friend up, but it was "for his own good," and you're still totally his friend. 

I am not making campaign against Bioware. I am making sure that the flow of feedback is kept alive and I will do so until Extended Cut is released. Becouse I want this Extended Cut to satisfy as many people as it possibly can. After EC is released I promise to either: A) Be happy with it and continue to support Bioware and be glad they helped me Be sad about it, leave my final comments here and proceed to other games while trying to forget about Mass Effect franchise. 

Modifié par Aweus, 09 avril 2012 - 07:29 .

[sargon1986]

AtlasMickey wrote...

Ozzyfan223 wrote...
Bioware lacks humility,

I think you mean BioWare's fans.

Yeah, fans such as yourself. Once again you barge in someone else's thread only to say ''others suck'' and leave. Well thanks for that valuable insight troll.

[sargon1986]

All I know is that it wasn't the ending that bothered me the most about this situation. It was the response from Bioware and the media. Bioware wouldn't own their mistake and the media helped them make excuses while demonizing anyone who disliked the ending.

For me I was numb because of the ending, then I saw the developer promises again and felt lied to, then the media called me an entitled, selfish, greedy whiner and I a got indignant, then Bioware refused to admit they made a mistake by falling back on crappy PR tactics/statements and ignoring the problem and I got angry.

[mumwaldee369]

OhoniX wrote...



No. "The customer is always right" is one of the most ignorant and abused axioms in commercial history. "The customer is occasionally right," would be more accurate. This is not one of those situations.

It is right if they want to remain profitable.  And they seem to be making some kind of effort to change things.  To please the minority I suppose.