155 réponses à ce sujet

[Zenning]

samb wrote...

In an ideal situation, your cooldown for charge is the same or less than the animation for nova.
Anyone know the base recharge speed for biotic charge and the amount of time you have invincibility frames? As it stands now even with +200% cooldown bonus and stacked power recharge this isn't happening. What is the amount of time of this difference?

Actually.. When you have enough Nova stacks, like I mentioned, you will be able to charge the instant (Well seemingly..  I'm gonna go grab a hornet and see if it shoots after I charge with this method) your nova finisehs.

Here, I'mma go test it out more right now.

Gonna get a level 3 Mod first, and then no mod.

[samb]

Nova canceling can do done anytime you have any shields on. Even if it is a sliver. That is why I prefer taking the evolution that increase shield regen by 15%, it allows form more Pre-stacking novas and slightly faster speed to get nova canceling.

There are frames at the start where you are not invincible which is usually not a problem since charge likely staggered them preventing them from staggering you. If you we faster enough with your nova or nova cancel you are safe. Sometimes a quick nova right after a charge is better if the charge didn't stagger, then the follow up nova will. If they can't be staggered even with that then maybe you shouldn't have charged them in the first place.

[samb]

Zenning wrote...

samb wrote...

In an ideal situation, your cooldown for charge is the same or less than the animation for nova.
Anyone know the base recharge speed for biotic charge and the amount of time you have invincibility frames? As it stands now even with +200% cooldown bonus and stacked power recharge this isn't happening. What is the amount of time of this difference?

Actually.. When you have enough Nova stacks, like I mentioned, you will be able to charge the instant (Well seemingly..  I'm gonna go grab a hornet and see if it shoots after I charge with this method) your nova finisehs.

Here, I'mma go test it out more right now.

Gonna get a level 3 Mod first, and then no mod.

The diminishing returns on cooldowns seem to prevent this from happening. I used a carnifex IX with 200% CD bonus and there is about a half second delay between nova frames and charge. This is after I stacked two novas on it before the wave started. I think you only see a big difference when you got a claymore or something. But let me know if you could do it and how I can follow. 

[samb]

<_<

Broganisity wrote...

Your information is very helpful, I'll add your information towards the Nova section in a moment, I appreciate it. As you said though Half-Nova is indisputibly weaker than the normal nova, but in key areas that survivability is vital. With Half-Nova it's generally more adviseable if you put yourself in a support role via diverting the heavy enemies for your team (Atlas and Banshees to be specific: Any skilled Vanguard doesn't have to worry too much about fighting the other "boss" mobs up close).

Your enemy specific information is generally what I had up already, but I'll add the parts which aren't. AGain, thank you.

Pffff when I mention you can stack nova recharges I'm chopped liver, when Zenning mentions it it is worthy of editing the OP. I'm calling foul. 

Modifié par samb, 19 avril 2012 - 04:48 .

[Zenning]

That's cause I'ma AWESOME!

So, some look at the stacks. So, at my fastest without any mods, and a locust with my finger holding the trigger down, I get about 3 shots in max, I got a few with 2 shots instead, but very few. With a level 2, I got 2 mostly at my max speed, and 1 with a few. With a level 3, 1 normal, and none a few of the times.

[samb]

Zenning wrote...

That's cause I'ma AWESOME!

So, some look at the stacks. So, at my fastest without any mods, and a locust with my finger holding the trigger down, I get about 3 shots in max, I got a few with 2 shots instead, but very few. With a level 2, I got 2 mostly at my max speed, and 1 with a few. With a level 3, 1 normal, and none a few of the times.

Hmm by level 3 you mean 3 Pre-stacked novas and another nova after the first charge for a total of 4 novas within 15 seconds?  Hmm I think I'm doing something wrong then. There is defiantly a tiny delay when I do it. Maybe I didn't spam nova fast enough. 

[A Germ]

 This is how I roll with Zenning (glitching everywhere)
www.youtube.com/watch

[Zenning]

samb wrote...

Zenning wrote...

That's cause I'ma AWESOME!

So, some look at the stacks. So, at my fastest without any mods, and a locust with my finger holding the trigger down, I get about 3 shots in max, I got a few with 2 shots instead, but very few. With a level 2, I got 2 mostly at my max speed, and 1 with a few. With a level 3, 1 normal, and none a few of the times.

Hmm by level 3 you mean 3 Pre-stacked novas and another nova after the first charge for a total of 4 novas within 15 seconds?  Hmm I think I'm doing something wrong then. There is defiantly a tiny delay when I do it. Maybe I didn't spam nova fast enough. 

Err..  A level 3 Power effienecy module.  Sorry. 

It takes about 5 stacks or so before I get my max speed.

[Zenning]

A Germ wrote...

 This is how I roll with Zenning (glitching everywhere)
www.youtube.com/watch

My voice..  It's muffled!  

[jaydubs67]

Zenning wrote...

That's cause I'ma AWESOME!

So, some look at the stacks. So, at my fastest without any mods, and a locust with my finger holding the trigger down, I get about 3 shots in max, I got a few with 2 shots instead, but very few. With a level 2, I got 2 mostly at my max speed, and 1 with a few. With a level 3, 1 normal, and none a few of the times.

Good to know.  So a few thoughts come to mind.  

If we want truly continuous invincibility frames, we need to use Power Efficiency modules.  But if we do that, we're giving up the slot.  I love, for instance, cyclonic modulator III, but that goes back to survivability again.  That will probably be my default build/loadout regardless.  

The bigger quesiton is, will a full-blast vanguard using Power Efficiency III (for continuous invincibility spam) outdamage a half-blast vanguard using Power Amplifier III (also continuous invincibility spam)?  If so, by how much?  Also, how many charge-nova cycles before a full-blast vanguard reaches seamless invincibility spam?  

And on a separate matter, we know that the power recharge on nova stacks.  Does power synergy on charge stack?  How does this affect vanguard damage, both comparative between the two build and in general?  In fact, what kind of DPS do these builds churn out?  

So... much... maths...  maybe tomorrow.  

Modifié par jaydubs67, 19 avril 2012 - 05:03 .

[A Germ]

Zenning wrote...

A Germ wrote...

 This is how I roll with Zenning (glitching everywhere)
www.youtube.com/watch

My voice..  It's muffled!  

yea man, you sound like a drowning cat. lol
we tried to tell you lol

[Utopianus]

Much, much appreciated. I wanted to compose such a thorough explanation of the class but didn't have time. Hopefully we'll see more intelligent use of the class and more support from our teammates, instead of just blind hatred.

[Zenning]

jaydubs67 wrote...

Zenning wrote...

That's cause I'ma AWESOME!

So, some look at the stacks. So, at my fastest without any mods, and a locust with my finger holding the trigger down, I get about 3 shots in max, I got a few with 2 shots instead, but very few. With a level 2, I got 2 mostly at my max speed, and 1 with a few. With a level 3, 1 normal, and none a few of the times.

Good to know.  So a few thoughts come to mind.  

If we want truly continuous invincibility frames, we need to use Power Efficiency modules.  But if we do that, we're giving up the slot.  I love, for instance, cyclonic modulator III, but that goes back to survivability again.  That will probably be my default build/loadout regardless.  

The bigger quesiton is, will a full-blast vanguard using Power Efficiency III (for continuous invincibility spam) outdamage a half-blast vanguard using Power Amplifier III (also continuous invincibility spam)?  If so, by how much?  Also, how many charge-nova cycles before a full-blast vanguard reaches seamless invincibility spam?  

And on a separate matter, we know that the power recharge on nova stacks.  Does power synergy on charge stack?  How does this affect vanguard damage, both comparative between the two build and in general?  In fact, what kind of DPS do these build churn out?  

So... much... maths...  maybe tomorrow.  

The power synergy does not seem to actually stack.  If it did, after 3 combo's I would insta kill mooks on gold with it.  

Also power amplified Vanguard's still can't keep up.  I believe that the Power amplifer adds anywhere from 30% to 40% damage.  In other words, it pretty much just cancels the 40% loss you get.  The Charge will also do about 100 more damage per charge..

The thing is, the regular Vanguard is charging twice as much as you, and actually novain' twice only about .3 seconds (The length of time for a charge) after you are when they are at their fastest.

In other words, Single Nova Manguards are the most destructive force since Isaac Newton.

[samb]

You sure the power synergy doesn't stack or are you killing your enemies with nova in such force that you can't tell? Afterall, most of the lowest teir mob do die after a full nova. A better test would be against a prime. See if each cycle deals 25% more damage.

[Zenning]

samb wrote...

You sure the power synergy doesn't stack or are you killing your enemies with nova in such force that you can't tell? Afterall, most of the lowest teir mob do die after a full nova. A better test would be against a prime. See if each cycle deals 25% more damage.

I do all my testing on gold.  I'm thinking maybe I'll compare the damage of a shotgun before the charge, after 1 charge, and after an other, to see if weapon synergy stacks.

Once again though, I don't see it on power synergy.

Modifié par Zenning, 19 avril 2012 - 05:23 .

[samb]

PS I'm glad this thread is shifting the general consensus that half blast is better than power recharge. We are like broadening our horizons and stuff. On an Internet forum!

[Broganisity]

samb wrote...

PS I'm glad this thread is shifting the general consensus that half blast is better than power recharge. We are like broadening our horizons and stuff. On an Internet forum!

Crazy, huh?

I stepped back to watch you guys tal- actually I went and ate some foods

Still, I personally prefer the half blast since I'm paranoid and like my room of error, though Power Recharge is by far the greatest thing for a destructive vanguard. I'll add more stuff tommorow, if you could summarize the stuff into one small pile (because I'm too lazy to read right now.) that'd be great!

[D.I.Y_Death]

I use a carnifex and only a carnifex, gives me 180% recharge which allows me to spam the living crap out of Charge and Nova. Its not uncommion for me to kill half a wave before my allies get into the fight. Main problem with the Vanguard is getting one hit killed, its become much harder lately to dodge those killing blows and banshees are even teleport-grabbing one bronze at this point.

[Fox544]

samb wrote...

Fox544 wrote...

I'm confused. No offense but isn't Vanguard kinda the class for thick people? Do we really need a guide? (I say this while having a lvl 20 Vanguard because its so gosh darned easy). I admire your detail and definitely enthusiasm but yeah.

I'm am glad you consider getting to 20 to be a major accomplishment. Good for you, I am happy you are satisfied with being mediocore.  But you see, excelling and playing a vanguard at a high level without dying is very very hard.  I have a toon in every class at level 20 and it was easy, I guess that means all classes are for "thick people"?

You just couldn't write a post that DIDN'T insult people right?  ****g kids these days. 

Cute, real cute. I'm a child yet refrained from cursing. Also by "insultiung" people I would have insulted myself seeing as I admitted to all the same things. Also reading my post I made it clear I meant no offense and complamented the OP's enthusiasm and attention to detail.

I do believe "the child" is you. Have a pleasent night.

[Fox544]

Broganisity wrote...

This thread is not here for arguing with one another and throwing about petty insults.

There are people out there who have a hard time getting used to the vanguard in the new system, and this guide, along with the people who help me add to it, are here to give them the advice they need and want. If we can't keep outselves civil and helpful then there's no point in even continuing.

Fox, it's easy to get to level twenty, but that doesn't make the game easy. I'm sure you've had questions about facing certain opponents as well as working with other classes, and Samb: there's no need for insulting him, as he has a point.

The Infiltrator cloaks and shoots, the Asari spam warp and throw, Krogans hit things with their heads and shoot big guns. It's simple, but there are a lot of things that put those classes in a bad spot, and the Vanguard is no different.

All classes are simple to figure out, hard to master, and advice is always welcome on improving your skills. How does a Vanguard perform their role efficiently? How does an Infiltrator support their team during an upload objective on Reactor? Does a Krogan have to focus solely on Melee? We all have questions we'd like answered, you can either ask them and in turn give that advice to others, or you can spend your time harassing one another and getting no where.

Don't continue this argument. Go back to helping people.

I guess I see your point. The devil is in the details and what not. I'm probably looking at it from the perspective of someone who avoids gold like the plague so I'm biased from playing silver/bronze. I have to admit when you wanna play gold in a way that doesn't involve wingin it having a collective pool of knowledge would be helpful.

[samb]

Fox544 wrote...

I guess I see your point. The devil is in the details and what not. I'm probably looking at it from the perspective of someone who avoids gold like the plague so I'm biased from playing silver/bronze. I have to admit when you wanna play gold in a way that doesn't involve wingin it having a collective pool of knowledge would be helpful.

Sorry I called you names, given all the irrational hate going around I tend to be more sensative.  Anyway, welcome to the disscussion.  I help it will enlighten you on just how complex and powerful this class really is.  It's also a whole lot of fun so stick around.

Zenning wrote...

The thing is, the regular Vanguard is charging twice as much as you, and actually novain' twice only about .3 seconds (The length of time for a charge) after you are when they are at their fastest.

In other words, Single Nova Manguards are the most destructive force since Isaac Newton.

It's Sir Isaac Newton to you mister.  I'm not sure about your exact numbers though, you can stack 5 novas before a round starts but in practice you will only have 3-4 prestacked by the time 15 seconds runs out, and if you were at +200% CD bonus to begin with an extra 50%-100% might be past the nadir of diminishing returns and you would only be getting 1-2 tenth of a sacond difference.  I don't see that translating into twice as much charges.  Maybe 2-3 more for every 5 charges (40-60%), which is still very signifigant.

What is the recharge on charge anyway?  In ME2 it was 6 seconds which seemed rather long.  If nova is around 0.8 seconds and charge with power effeciency mod, power recharge (x5 which is +100%) and 200% CD seems to be about 0.1-0.2 second delay (assuming it takes a Loctcus 0.1 seconds to shoot one shoot).  That seems like a farily safe margin.  They would have to stagger or kill you in that little amount of time.

[Dashmundo]

With Gratitude: I've been reading the half-nova/recharge debate with interest, and will definitely be running some tests with my Male and Female Vanguard later (one has a half-blast, the other with the recharge).

Curious: On the 10 second power-recharge bonus (or is it 15) - how many Novas can you actually fit in that? Simply cause you mentioned earlier you have to hit 5 Novas to get to your full speed, and I'm curious if you manage to fit that into the bracket or not?

Thoughtful: That said, I guess once you get your speed up with 2-3 Novas, fitting 5 in 10 seconds should become commonplace...

[samb]

Dashmundo wrote...

With Gratitude: I've been reading the half-nova/recharge debate with interest, and will definitely be running some tests with my Male and Female Vanguard later (one has a half-blast, the other with the recharge).

Curious: On the 10 second power-recharge bonus (or is it 15) - how many Novas can you actually fit in that? Simply cause you mentioned earlier you have to hit 5 Novas to get to your full speed, and I'm curious if you manage to fit that into the bracket or not?

Thoughtful: That said, I guess once you get your speed up with 2-3 Novas, fitting 5 in 10 seconds should become commonplace...

I have been running this same experiment soloing silver and I have found that power recharge clears waves faster. 
Before the wave even starts, spam novas to get as much recharge bonus as possible.  Once you see your barrier refill even a little bit (don't wait for a full refill), nova and repeat.  You should be able to fit in 4 novas (for a +100% bonus) in 10 seconds then five seconds to charge and nova a target.  Or if you really feel pressed for time you could nova first and then charge to ensure you have as many stacked novas as possible.
That is why I think taking the sheild regen +15% is better than martial artist.  The faster you can get shields up again the more nova spam and recharge bonuses you can have. 

[Zenning]

Dashmundo wrote...

With Gratitude: I've been reading the half-nova/recharge debate with interest, and will definitely be running some tests with my Male and Female Vanguard later (one has a half-blast, the other with the recharge).

Curious: On the 10 second power-recharge bonus (or is it 15) - how many Novas can you actually fit in that? Simply cause you mentioned earlier you have to hit 5 Novas to get to your full speed, and I'm curious if you manage to fit that into the bracket or not?

Thoughtful: That said, I guess once you get your speed up with 2-3 Novas, fitting 5 in 10 seconds should become commonplace...

I know that I can get about 1 nova per second once I've reached my peak with the power efficeny module..  I'll go and time my self the next time I have the chance (Which probably won't be for awhile sadly)

[Achire]

Tried the single nova spam and it works surprisingly well (on solo Silver). I'm not comfortable using it on Gold at all, but it's pretty cool that this playstyle is viable.