155 réponses à ce sujet

[samb]

I've been giving some thought to picking between radius and increased damage and force. For most cases I would say the raduis is better since it can stagger crowds of enemies and hence keep you safer. It could also let you detonate multiple primed enemies nearby as well.
On the other hand a charge with both improvements force and damage can deal a whooping 412.5 damage.

Just for reference, a half blast nova deals 378 (472 with power synergy) if you picked the raduis evolution and 490 (612 with power synergy) if you took force and damage. So a charge can in theory, deal as much, if not more, damage as a half-blast nova.

The fact that you only hit one target can be a boon as well if you have teammates spamming reave. You want the nova to detonate it since the explosion's damage is based on the powers' damage and rank. As stated above, nova with power synergy always tops charge, making it the preferred detonating power of the two.   Without a radius effect you could make a more pinpoint and control BE boom.

With a good team tagging targets for you the inital BE from charge should give you decent stagger to make up for the lack of AoE.  This all come down to having a good squad to back you up though.

Modifié par samb, 20 avril 2012 - 09:47 .

[Dashmundo]

The Radius has just come in handy so many times when reviving a teammate - you slam into the enemies near him, get a revive in - as opposed to charging, and dying mid-revive cause of that marauder standing nearby as well.

The objective of the charge isn't to get as much "damage done as possible" - quite simple, one charge gets rid of a husk in any case, and most of a cannibal's life.

The radius just seems to have more use. The radius effect releases the BOOM even when you hit the target next to it - it gives more room for error with a drell using area reave.

There's just more positives than negatives.

I did a few games with the full-recharge nova-guard yesterday instead of the standard half-blast. Did terribly in waves 1-3, but when I got used to "having to nova as soon as shields started going back up", it was perfect. You get your cooldown near that of "throw", for god's sake. And you're unleashing a ridiculous amount of damage.

Big convert here - fullnova+recharge is definitely the way forward, ahead of half-blast.

[samb]

Dashmundo wrote...

The Radius has just come in handy so many times when reviving a teammate - you slam into the enemies near him, get a revive in - as opposed to charging, and dying mid-revive cause of that marauder standing nearby as well.

The objective of the charge isn't to get as much "damage done as possible" - quite simple, one charge gets rid of a husk in any case, and most of a cannibal's life.

The radius just seems to have more use. The radius effect releases the BOOM even when you hit the target next to it - it gives more room for error with a drell using area reave.

There's just more positives than negatives.

I am not disputing this, I personally think radius is much safer.  Just pointing out that increased force and damage can deal impressive damage and much more effective if you have a team behind you spamming area reaves.  You want to detonate with nova to get max damage, not charge.  With radius charge you are letting a signifigant amount of damage go to waste in the form of BEs.

But really, just the idea that your charge can deal more damage than a half nova is mind blowing.

I did a few games with the full-recharge nova-guard yesterday instead of the standard half-blast. Did terribly in waves 1-3, but when I got used to "having to nova as soon as shields started going back up", it was perfect. You get your cooldown near that of "throw", for god's sake. And you're unleashing a ridiculous amount of damage.

Big convert here - fullnova+recharge is definitely the way forward, ahead of half-blast.

Yeah I'm starting to get won over.  If you charge right after your nova you are vastly increasing your damage output.  Remember you can always nova cancel to get yourself in a better position as well.

[molecularman]

How have you guys got the recharge boost to work? It's always taken me several charge-nova cycles to eliminate all the unwanted charge cooldown, even after nova spamming at round start. This with 200% recharge and no equipment. I end up going with nova-meleeing/rolling most of the time because the setup takes so long and is quite risky, not to mention you lose it fast if you can't find new charge targets. Do you guys just use power efficiency modules or what? That seems to be the only way to make it practical 100% of the time, IMO.

[samb]

molecularman wrote...

How have you guys got the recharge boost to work? It's always taken me several charge-nova cycles to eliminate all the unwanted charge cooldown, even after nova spamming at round start. This with 200% recharge and no equipment. I end up going with nova-meleeing/rolling most of the time because the setup takes so long and is quite risky, not to mention you lose it fast if you can't find new charge targets. Do you guys just use power efficiency modules or what? That seems to be the only way to make it practical 100% of the time, IMO.

Nova the instant your shields start charging rather than wait for it to fill to the top.  Taking the fitness evolution to speed up shield recharge will help a lot too.  In 15 seconds you should have at least +75% to +100% for the whole wave.
effeciency modules help also, but you will mainly be depending on the stagger (or better yet that BE) to keep you safe for those 0.1-0.2 seconds you are not invincible.

Modifié par samb, 20 avril 2012 - 10:45 .

[molecularman]

samb wrote...

molecularman wrote...

How have you guys got the recharge boost to work? It's always taken me several charge-nova cycles to eliminate all the unwanted charge cooldown, even after nova spamming at round start. This with 200% recharge and no equipment. I end up going with nova-meleeing/rolling most of the time because the setup takes so long and is quite risky, not to mention you lose it fast if you can't find new charge targets. Do you guys just use power efficiency modules or what? That seems to be the only way to make it practical 100% of the time, IMO.

Nova the instant your shields start charging rather than wait for it to fill to the top.  Taking the fitness evolution to speed up shield recharge will help a lot too.  In 15 seconds you should have at least +75% to +100% for the whole wave.

Well, yeah, I do that ofc, but it still seems to take about 3 cycles to get rid of that unnecessary cooldown completely. I'd stick with equipment but the problem is I don't have enough for every game Thanks anyways

E: BTW, the only real problem with charge-nova is that no matter what, there is a millisecond after nova where you are vulnerable before you can charge (not cooldown-related, happened in SP with all the recharge buffs as well). Not a biggie usually, but I guess if you swallow a couple of bullets and a rocket during that period you might be screwed.

Modifié par molecularman, 20 avril 2012 - 10:49 .

[Dashmundo]

molecularman wrote...

Well, yeah, I do that ofc, but it still seems to take about 3 cycles to get rid of that unnecessary cooldown completely. I'd stick with equipment but the problem is I don't have enough for every game Thanks anyways

E: BTW, the only real problem with charge-nova is that no matter what, there is a millisecond after nova where you are vulnerable before you can charge (not cooldown-related, happened in SP with all the recharge buffs as well). Not a biggie usually, but I guess if you swallow a couple of bullets and a rocket during that period you might be screwed.

The thing is, even after a nova, you have a minimal amount of "shield" left. And since we have a shield-gate, a rocket/bullet would get you down to health, but down to "full health" as opposed to eating in.

By the time you get any of the bullets into the health, your cooldown is done.

The only trouble you will have, is if you get hit by a rocket/staggered millisecond after you charge, and your shields get depleted before you nova - which will happen maybe once, possibly twice in a whole game. That's what your medgel - or a helpful teammate - is for.

[molecularman]

True, gating helps a lot. However, I've still been able to lose health (usually half a bar only) right after nova while trying out geth gold solo, even when my recharge rate is up. I've yet to be actually killed after nova, but I guess it's possible.

[samb]

molecularman wrote...

True, gating helps a lot. However, I've still been able to lose health (usually half a bar only) right after nova while trying out geth gold solo, even when my recharge rate is up. I've yet to be actually killed after nova, but I guess it's possible.

Are you useing radius nova or the more damaging nova?  If they only have a bit of health left a full nova with the boosted damage should do the trick. 

Also remember that if you are in a team with someone to prime your targets most things will die after a charge- nova combo. Going solo is great practise to see how much damage you can do, what to charge and what not charge, and timing. It is not a good indicator of how well you fare in an actual match with a team. 

[fallfromgrease]

about area charge vs force/dmg, the main advantage of picking force/dmg is the improved chance to stagger certain enemies on gold. from what i observed in game and reading data files, some enemies have this attribute called something like "stagger threshold". not sure if it refers to damage or force delivered to the target or a combination of both, but for enemies like phantoms on gold, choosing between force/dmg or area on the 4th charge evo is basically choosing between whether u want to charge into a staggered phantom or ... the pointy end of their swords.

however, i have not tried area charge with lvl3 power amp module on cerberus gold, which on paper makes up for not picking the force/dmg evo.

and since im cheap and use "can solo phantom on gold" as the sole criteria for the viability of all my class builds, i no longer take area charge on mah vanguards, altho it is very handy in some other situations ._.

[jaydubs67]

samb wrote...

You want the nova to detonate it since the explosion's damage is based on the powers' damage and rank. As stated above, nova with power synergy always tops charge, making it the preferred detonating power of the two.   Without a radius effect you could make a more pinpoint and control BE boom.

I don't think that part is true, but I am going off Bioware commentary rather than personal testing.  Since every vanguard should have charge at level 6, the only real difference in damage is from nova itself.  The resulting biotic explosion is exactly the same.  

Eric Fagnan wrote...

The damage of the combo explosion depends on the rank of the detonator power, not the stats of the power. The rank of the power that set up the combo also matters. So if you combine a rank 6 Pull with a rank 6 Throw, you will get maximum combo damage. Whether you use Throw or Warp to detonate doesn't really matter, except when that power has special upgrades to increase the damage of combos. Even if Warp, by default, does more damage than Throw on a regular impact, this does not affect how much damage is done on power combos - only the rank of the power matters.

This applies for the other combos as well. Using a rank 6 Incinerate to set up a fire combo and detonating with a rank 6 Throw will cause maximum damage. Using a rank 1 Incinerate with a rank 6 Throw does the same damage as using a rank 6 Incinerate followed by a rank 1 Throw, which is less than having max rank in both powers.

Hope that clarifies a few more things.

  

[samb]

Gosh I think you're right. Only the rank matters so the only redeeming thing about force and damage is the damage. If you detonate with charge or nova the BE is the same assuming both are rank 6. Radius charge all the way then. Thanks for that.

No one answered my original question: what is the base cooldown time of charge?

[jaydubs67]

fallfromgrease wrote...

about area charge vs force/dmg, the main advantage of picking force/dmg is the improved chance to stagger certain enemies on gold. from what i observed in game and reading data files, some enemies have this attribute called something like "stagger threshold". not sure if it refers to damage or force delivered to the target or a combination of both, but for enemies like phantoms on gold, choosing between force/dmg or area on the 4th charge evo is basically choosing between whether u want to charge into a staggered phantom or ... the pointy end of their swords.

however, i have not tried area charge with lvl3 power amp module on cerberus gold, which on paper makes up for not picking the force/dmg evo.

and since im cheap and use "can solo phantom on gold" as the sole criteria for the viability of all my class builds, i no longer take area charge on mah vanguards, altho it is very handy in some other situations ._.

This is an excellent catch, and should definitely be added into the guide.  Being able to charge phantom on gold without support is a big advantage.  Of course, giving up area charge means you have to be much more careful about charging into groups, and you might trigger less biotic explosions.  

Are you (or anyone else for that matter) aware of any other enemies that are staggered by Force & damage charges, but not area charges?  

[Achire]

fallfromgrease wrote...

however, i have not tried area charge with lvl3 power amp module on cerberus gold, which on paper makes up for not picking the force/dmg evo.

I did a couple of failed attempts of soloing Cerberus earlier using the Power Amp III. It allows you to Nova their shields easily, but it doesn't seem to stagger them with Area Charge.

[samb]

My experience soloing cerebus is that phantoms can't be staggered with area charge and power amp 3. I will try it with increased damage and force build instead then if that doesn't work I'll use amps. Will keep you posted.

If not then nova first (useing piercing) and then use 
Charge.  Which is what I usually do but end up taking a few hits. 

Modifié par samb, 21 avril 2012 - 07:02 .

[jaydubs67]

 

samb wrote...

My experience soloing cerebus is that phantoms can't be staggered with area charge and power amp 3. I will try it with increased damage and force build instead then if that doesn't work I'll use amps. Will keep you posted.

 

Staggering phantoms on gold with Force & Damage charge w/o amps is definitely confirmed.  

samb wrote...

No one answered my original question: what is the base cooldown time of charge?

I believe it is 10 seconds.  I seem to recall charge having a cooldown of 3.07 seconds if you have 200% cooldowns from weight.  Add in the 25% from charge ranks.  

10/(1.00+2.00+0.25) = 3.07 

[Broganisity]

Sorry for not being in to talk or add information: Been busy with my social life, writing exercises for my College Lit class, and working on another guide.

I'll add the stagger information for charge in a moment, was there something else I needed to add?

[samb]

jaydubs67 wrote...

I believe it is 10 seconds.  I seem to recall charge having a cooldown of 3.07 seconds if you have 200% cooldowns from weight.  Add in the 25% from charge ranks.  

10/(1.00+2.00+0.25) = 3.07 

Please explain your math. 2.00 is the 200% from weight, 0.25 is from recharge rank, what is the other 1.00?  Four stacked novas?

[jaydubs67]

samb wrote...

jaydubs67 wrote...

I believe it is 10 seconds.  I seem to recall charge having a cooldown of 3.07 seconds if you have 200% cooldowns from weight.  Add in the 25% from charge ranks.  

10/(1.00+2.00+0.25) = 3.07 

Please explain your math. 2.00 is the 200% from weight, 0.25 is from recharge rank, what is the other 1.00?  Four stacked novas?

Is my math wrong?  Isn't the 1.00 your default recharge?  I.e. 1.00 would be where you would be if your weight was + 0%.  So 10/1.00 = 10.  

It only works for positive recharge values though.  For negative values, at least according to this thread, it gets more complicated.  

http://social.biowar...index/11143692/ 

[samb]

jaydubs67 wrote...
Is my math wrong?  Isn't the 1.00 your default recharge?  I.e. 1.00 would be where you would be if your weight was + 0%.  So 10/1.00 = 10.  

It only works for positive recharge values though.  For negative values, at least according to this thread, it gets more complicated.  

http://social.biowar...index/11143692/ 

Ah I forgot to factor in the default recharge. No your math wasn't wrong I just didn't understand it. 
But 10 seconds sounds quite high but sine it isn't listed anywhere I will assume it is right. I recall it recall in ME2 was 6 seconds with no way to lower it. 
So with 4 stacked novas the recharge would be 2.35.  With power efficiency mod lvl3 it would be 2.2. So 1.3 tenths of a second difference. Might be better to invest in other mods instead as it seems to be hitting the point of demo noshing returns already. 
Zennings experiments seem to hint that he could lower the CD to about 1 second. That is why I am not sure if 10 is the default cooldown timer. 

[jaydubs67]

Don't know for sure what the recharge time is, I could be wrong. I prefer the utility of half-nova to be honest. I don't have to worry about keeping recharge rates up. Single nova seems to be more powerful, but it requires a lot of maintenance to keep it going.

If I have backup, combos contribute much more damage than nova. If I don't, I want to be able to retreat without worrying about losing stacked nova recharge. It just feels more natural to me.

[samb]

jaydubs67 wrote...

Don't know for sure what the recharge time is, I could be wrong. I prefer the utility of half-nova to be honest. I don't have to worry about keeping recharge rates up. Single nova seems to be more powerful, but it requires a lot of maintenance to keep it going.

If I have backup, combos contribute much more damage than nova. If I don't, I want to be able to retreat without worrying about losing stacked nova recharge. It just feels more natural to me.

I know the benefits of half blast are many, but we are trying to explore other ways to play the manguard, and power recharge, while carrying greater risks, is a valid way to play even at high levels. 

That is why I think an accurate account of charge's recharge time would make for better bookkeeping. How much cooldown bonus would you need before you compromise your load out?  Is the extra 0.5 seconds worth it carry a claymore etc.  I guess I could mix and match load outs to try and get 0% and round it off to the nearest second.  I'll try it tonight when I get the chance. 

[jaydubs67]

samb wrote...

I know the benefits of half blast are many, but we are trying to explore other ways to play the manguard, and power recharge, while carrying greater risks, is a valid way to play even at high levels. 

I'm not saying power recharge isn't viable (it might well be better than half blast).  Just saying that it's too much work for me.  It's the same reason I run a Widow on my SI instead of a Black Widow.  I know that the Black Widow has a higher skill ceiling and higher theoretical capability.  But, the Widow lets me be productive with bodyshots on mobs.  

I suspect power recharge is like the Black Widow.  A higher skill ceiling, more potential capability, but more difficult to utilize properly.  Good luck to you in trying to figure out its ins and outs.  

[samb]

 Okay I tested out the recharge on charge with a -8% modifier and got around 11 seconds. Which means you were right, charges cooldown is around 10 seconds.  If that is the case then I have to wonder how it is possible to reach the cooldown that Zenning posted without using sustained nova (25% of not using barriers).  By my calculations 2.2 is the fastest you can reach. If nova gives you 0.5-0.6 seconds of invincible frames then you are still open to damage for 1.5 seconds.  Which isn't that longer per say but emphasizes how careful you need to be when using power recharge. 

Here are some more numbers to crunch on. 


Damage of charge and nova. All calculations are based on the base damage and force rather than the compounded number. 
Biotic charge
Base: 
Damage: 275 Force: 550

First force and damage upgrade:
Damage: 325 (calculated 330)
Force: 650 (calculated 660)
Second force and damage upgrade:
Damage: 418
Force: 825
Add 96 to damage and 193 to force if alliance training is taken with max power damage upgrades. 
Not sure if power synergy applies to charge. If it does then add 67 to damage and 137 to force. 


Nova (the second number is if power synergy is factored in). 
Base:
Damage: 385 
Force: 495

First force and damage upgrade:
Damage: 490 (calculated 500)/597
Force: 630 (calculated 644)/668

Second force and damage upgrade:
Damage: 655/750
Force: 842/965

Half blast with both damage upgrades: same as only having 1 damage upgrade (for the first nova, 2nd damage upgrade gives +40% while half blast takes away 40%). 

Half blast with increased radius:  
Damage: 346/443
Force:  446/569

Piercing with both force and damage upgrades (against shields/barriers/armor):
Damage: 1040/1136
Force:  1337/1460

Piercing with radius and full blast (against shields/barriers/armor):
Damage: 886/982
Force: 1139/1262
Piercing with radius and half blast (against shields/barriers/armor):
Damage: 732/828
Force: 941/1064

Add 135 to damage and 173 to force if factoring in alliance training for max power damage. 

Some Reference points:  
Geth trooper: was 1688, now 1850 health 
Geth hunter: shields: was 1688, now 2278
Health was 1519 now 2025
What all this says is that no matter what, you will need support in gold to kill anything in one charge-nova cycle. It also puts into perpective how much the power and force upgrades affect you nova and charge. 

Modifié par samb, 22 avril 2012 - 03:21 .

[jaydubs67]

samb wrote...

What all this says is that no matter what, you will need support in gold to kill anything in one charge-nova cycle. It also puts into perpective how much the power and force upgrades affect you nova and charge. 

Well, you need support to kill protected enemies in 1 charge-nova cycle.  You can kill unprotected grunts due to the rather large damage they take from being thrown around by force effects.  

I know for a fact that 1 Force & Damage charge plus 1 Force & Damage half-blast can kill a cerberus trooper on gold if you throw them into a wall or some such.  It's not 100 percent, but it's more often than not.  That makes it probable that 1 complete charge-nova cycle can kill all grunts, though I haven't specifically tested it while looking to see if it works on geth troopers and cannibals.