395 réponses à ce sujet

[Udalango]

lx_theo wrote...

Udalango wrote...

lx_theo wrote...

You still DON'T GET IT. This is assuming that you don't care about heart problems. I'm saying this person has literally no reason to stay in shape. You can't make one up. 

To them, the preservation of the genetic material could easily be enough to see as an alternative to the species simply being wiped out in an ineviatable syntheitc organic war. Its a compromise for neither synthetics or organics to simply die out. they don't value the actual life portion of it enough to see the upside of letting organics live their lives. To them, with their POV, its a fair compromise to help preserve.

The logic is fine. You obviously are unable to think outside of your value system. So it seems you're quite closed minded. Unless you prefer to show otherwise, you're argument has no merit. You can't argue someone's logic is wrong without knowing their POV and understanding why that effects their decisions first.

Now now dont start shouting.  one might think you are an idiot if you do that *Heavy sarcasm*

Lol I get exactly what you are saying.   I dont have have to make up a reason for that person to want to stay in shape.  Their own body does it for them. Them not caring changes nothing.  Bad example for what you are saying.

Also please stop assuming you know me.  The personal attacks arent needed we are arguing a point not arguing whether or not I am closed minded by your opinion as someone who knows absolutely nothing about me.  Stay on topic champ

 But since you cant not attack me good night.  This argument isnt worth having 

Yes, the shouting is what makes someone an idiot, not the lack of common sense, O.

I'm not attacking you anymore than what you're doing right in front of me. If you care so much about those comments, prove me wrong. Or stay in the light you're showing yourself and still seem like I've said. Not my decision.

Except I never once said anything about you there captain.  I said that IMO the Endigs were terrible and made no sense. 
Take it or leave it. 

[J RoD824]

This...is becoming overkill.

[lx_theo]

Udalango wrote...

lx_theo wrote...

Udalango wrote...

lx_theo wrote...

You still DON'T GET IT. This is assuming that you don't care about heart problems. I'm saying this person has literally no reason to stay in shape. You can't make one up. 

To them, the preservation of the genetic material could easily be enough to see as an alternative to the species simply being wiped out in an ineviatable syntheitc organic war. Its a compromise for neither synthetics or organics to simply die out. they don't value the actual life portion of it enough to see the upside of letting organics live their lives. To them, with their POV, its a fair compromise to help preserve.

The logic is fine. You obviously are unable to think outside of your value system. So it seems you're quite closed minded. Unless you prefer to show otherwise, you're argument has no merit. You can't argue someone's logic is wrong without knowing their POV and understanding why that effects their decisions first.

Now now dont start shouting.  one might think you are an idiot if you do that *Heavy sarcasm*

Lol I get exactly what you are saying.   I dont have have to make up a reason for that person to want to stay in shape.  Their own body does it for them. Them not caring changes nothing.  Bad example for what you are saying.

Also please stop assuming you know me.  The personal attacks arent needed we are arguing a point not arguing whether or not I am closed minded by your opinion as someone who knows absolutely nothing about me.  Stay on topic champ

 But since you cant not attack me good night.  This argument isnt worth having 

Yes, the shouting is what makes someone an idiot, not the lack of common sense, O.

I'm not attacking you anymore than what you're doing right in front of me. If you care so much about those comments, prove me wrong. Or stay in the light you're showing yourself and still seem like I've said. Not my decision.

Except I never once said anything about you there captain.  I said that IMO the Endigs were terrible and made no sense. 
Take it or leave it. 

And I argued against your own flawed logic about your claim to flawed logic by the child. 

It a debate, what am I supposed to do? I suppose I'm forced to leave it because you don't even really either understand or are willing to think open minded enough to understadn my argument against your reasoning.

[Udalango]

lx_theo wrote...



And I argued against your own flawed logic about your claim to flawed logic by the child. 

It a debate, what am I supposed to do? I suppose I'm forced to leave it because you don't even really either understand or are willing to think open minded enough to understadn my argument against your reasoning.

Pro tip Calling someone closed minded or that they are idiots isnt debating.  We obviously wont agree so once again take it or leave it. 
Dont start acting like some high and mighty "If they didnt get it they must be idiots" kind of person.  

[lx_theo]

Udalango wrote...

lx_theo wrote...



And I argued against your own flawed logic about your claim to flawed logic by the child. 

It a debate, what am I supposed to do? I suppose I'm forced to leave it because you don't even really either understand or are willing to think open minded enough to understadn my argument against your reasoning.

Pro tip Calling someone closed minded or that they are idiots isnt debating.  We obviously wont agree so once again take it or leave it. 
Dont start acting like some high and mighty "If they didnt get it they must be idiots" kind of person.  

I made my point. You essentially called it impossible. It was very possible. I tried to explain it to you. What you did was apply it to your own way of thinking instead of anothers (the exact opposite of what i was saying showed it).

That can mean one of two things. That you are either unwilling to (which means closed minded or stupidly stubborn, or uncapable of it (the inability to understand possibility).

So please, don't try to pass it off like you actually did any of that so it didn't come off as being one of those two. or that all I did was say that it was because of the two you just mentioned. Because both are lies. Yes, I'm calling you a liar. If you want to cry about that, please don't do it to me this time.

Also, I already said leave it. Or did you not actually read my post? <_<

Modifié par lx_theo, 09 avril 2012 - 07:28 .

[Amioran]

acidic-ph0 wrote...

Anyone who believes that deus ex machina is a good way to end a story like Mass Effect doesn't know what good writing is.

And I guess you instead know how to judge what "good writing" is. Why, oh why my God these people exist?

Grow a little of humility, child. I bet as much as you want that you would not be able to judge "good writing" from "bad writing" neither if your life depended on it.

What deus ex machina has to do with "bad" or "good" writing is completely beyond me. Have you ever a minimal comprehension of what "good writing" really means and of what it is composed? If not, just shut up, please, there are enough incompetents around here without another "expert" sprouting nonsense.

acidic-ph0 wrote...
In fact deus ex machina is practically synonymous with bad writing.

Yes, how not. Must remember this when I teach in university, so my students can have a little of revenge on me.

Modifié par Amioran, 09 avril 2012 - 07:29 .

[Udalango]

lx_theo wrote...

Udalango wrote...

lx_theo wrote...



And I argued against your own flawed logic about your claim to flawed logic by the child. 

It a debate, what am I supposed to do? I suppose I'm forced to leave it because you don't even really either understand or are willing to think open minded enough to understadn my argument against your reasoning.

Pro tip Calling someone closed minded or that they are idiots isnt debating.  We obviously wont agree so once again take it or leave it. 
Dont start acting like some high and mighty "If they didnt get it they must be idiots" kind of person.  

I made my point. You essentially called it impossible. It was very possible. I tried to explain it to you. What you did was apply it to your own way of thinking instead of anothers (the exact opposite of what i was saying showed it).

That can mean one of two things. That you are either unwilling to (which means closed minded or stupidly stubborn, or uncapable of it (the inability to understand possibility).

So please, don't try to pass it off like you actually did any of that so it didn't come off as being one of those two. or that all I did was say that it was because of the two you just mentioned. Because both are lies. Yes, I'm calling you a liar. If you want to cry about that, please don't do it to me this time.

Also, I already said leave it. Or did you not actually read my post? <_<

I never said it was impossible Im saying that I think it is incredibly stupid.  I think the ending was stupid and could have been done better.  I think the kids logic is idiotic.  I think he could have found a better way.  I get he thinkis his poop dont stink thats cool.  YOur opinion means nothing to me because you decided to attack me because I dont see it the way you do.
I am not closed minded I just think it was a dumb way to end a game.  I think that if you have to say "It makes sense to him"  It is a dumb motive.  I would have prefered no motive.  
Look I looked at it from his point of view.  ORganics individuality or whatever isnt worth saving and all of a sudden im like eh if they die they die. Im not going to bother "Preserving" us.

But good night capatain im so great 

[Amioran]

sparkyo42 wrote...
An Ending should end things not leave SPECULATION for everyone.

Where the hell it is written a thing as that? Of what the hell are you talking about?

OMG, there's so much nonsense in this thread that's almost impossible to keep track of it.

So, in your opinion a book (or whatever other medium) cannot finish in uncertainity and speculation because that's "bad writing" and a "bad ending". Are you really serious? Go tell that to Ellroy, Ellis, Kafka, Ginsberg, Rimbaud, Artaud, either Shakespeare and thousands countless others. All "bad writers".

Why in the hell you people don't research a bit the things you talk about before insisting on talking about them as you are experts?

You know nothing at all about writing, you have no background at all in it (as it's obvious) and yet you insist on judging what's "good" or "bad" in it. Grow a little of humility, study, then if you want return and talk about it. At last people could take you seriously after.

But instead you come here, pretend Bioware to have "bad writers" when you know absolutely nothing of what constitutes the term and yet you either want to be taken seriously and your judgement have some ground. What an idiot would care minimally about what you have to say if all you have to say is nonsense?

This and "deux ex machina cannot be good writing" are my favorite idiocies now.

Modifié par Amioran, 09 avril 2012 - 07:42 .

[Mikokami]

If you really think the ME3 ending was good, that deus ex machina is a worthwhile option for such a masterpiece, what the Mass Effect Trilogy definitely is until that certain point, i can show you endings that will really blow your mind, and by so, will possible change your oppinion on the matter, believing the ME3 ending was good at all.

Modifié par Mikokami, 09 avril 2012 - 07:47 .

[Amioran]

lx_theo wrote...
EDIT: Here is me addressing the issue of "plotholes"
http://social.biowar...3404/4#11197542

"Plot-holes" don't need to be addressed for now. It is premature. We don't know if this is the "end" in the full sense, we are not certain about the full reality of the situation, we are not certain about the starchild, we are not certain about the development of the story.

People ask for things that are either counterproductive for them. Full closure can be needed when in fact there's a full final (a thing is not said at all for now)  - and never then to be sincere (but this would be too long to explain, so let's just play the gamer "full closure" card) - so, again, it can be premature depending on what Bioware wants to do.

You want this, you want that and yet you don't know neither if this is what the narrative needs right now because you don't know the developments in plan at Bioware (that can be multiple).

[Amioran]

Mikokami wrote...

If you really think the ME3 ending was good, that deus ex machina is a worthwhile option for such a masterpiece, what the Mass Effect Trilogy definitely is until that certain point, i can show you endings that will really blow your mind, and by so, will possible change your oppinion on the matter, believing the ME3 ending was good at all.

A) You don't know the development of the story in the background.
You don't know if this is an "ending" (in the full sense) or not.
C) I think I've seen "a little" more endings than you in my life, thanks, and I know "a little" more than you (probably) what constitues "good" or "bad" writing (having myself a real background on this) to judge for myself what is what without your "expert" help, thanks.
D) Changing my opinion based on what? Things you probably know nothing about and yet people continue to talk about as if they are experts? You can try if you want, but if this is the beginning...
E) Deus Ex Machina has been used many times in writing and this doesn't constitues per se "bad writing" at all. One can use it and use write badly, one can use it and write beautifully. The two things are completely non-sequitur one with another.

[Rammastus]

I happen to think the endings were fine as is. I am sick and tired of people posting spoiler threads about how they hate the ending and exactly what they hated about the ending in a supposedly spoiler free area of the forum. Those who hate it are entitled to their opinion I agree, but by not following the forum rules is one of the numerous things that are dragging your case down and making you seem like a bunch of self entitled whiners. As for those who, like me, liked the ending, maybe for every thread that pops up about how they hate the ending and how Bioware sucks so bad we should post 3 threads about how we liked it. The anti ending threads are pretty much making it difficult to read quality threads anyway.

[Wolf]

 OP watch this video and you'll see the problems with all this.
Link:

[Gibb_Shepard]

Every single one of your explanations rely heavily on a pile of assumptions.

[Wolf]

Amioran wrote...

A) You don't know the development of the story in the background.
You don't know if this is an "ending" (in the full sense) or not.
C) I think I've seen "a little" more endings than you in my life, thanks, and I know "a little" more than you (probably) what constitues "good" or "bad" writing (having myself a real background on this) to judge for myself what is what without your "expert" help, thanks.
D) Changing my opinion based on what? Things you probably know nothing about and yet people continue to talk about as if they are experts? You can try if you want, but if this is the beginning...
E) Deus Ex Machina has been used many times in writing and this doesn't constitues per se "bad writing" at all. One can use it and use write badly, one can use it and write beautifully. The two things are completely non-sequitur one with another.

A) Story in the background? What? If you're talking about the development of the story by the team, it was purely bad writing at that point. If you think diferently fine, but that fact remains it's bad.

B)They promised an ending in the sense that Shepard's story would be given a proper conclusion with various endings, yet what we got was, effectively, one ending with some mild differences. The fact that they advertised this game as and ending to a saga, any person with sense would assume that means we get closure on everything presented to us so far, yet this was all lost in favor of "speculations for everyone!".
The ending of a story (or arc, which is the case here) requires a sense of closure and accomplishment yet just enough to give us an idea of how things will go on. Nothing like that was provided in this ending. The lost focus on characters and became about a non-existing conflict within the narrative structure of the triology.

C)Look Amioran, stop throwing around how much more you know about stories than anybody else because you are supposedly a successful writer in your country. The ending being good is nullified by the lack of control or character agency in the last moments of the game. The ultimate goal of stoping the Reapers is replaced with a completely new goal. Out of nowhere we are expected to resolve a supposed tension between organics and synthetics, which up until now was barely related with the rest of the series, over the course of 14 lines of dialogue in the last 10 minutes. This is plain bad writing. Introducing an entirely new conflict at the end is a terrible idea, especially seeing as how we get next to know information on what we are meant to do, and what we do is full of vagueness.

D) You have given nobody any reason to believe you actually know what you're talking about. The fact that you can't seem to give a better reason for all this other than "It wasn't meant to happen" or "We can't know if this is it". Stop trying to make this about you. Nobody is questioning your knowledge, because we don't care.

E)The problem here is that the Deus Ex Machina in this game is done so without ANY in-universe explanation. There was nothing anywhere that prepared us for what we got at the ending. If they had given us the option to QUESTION the Catalyst, and given us more information as to what was going on  it could have gotten a little less heat. It's not that Deus Ex Machina is bad writing (even if it is a bit of a copout), it was simply executed terribly in ME3, mostly given the fact the last scene of the ending was written by Mac and Casey alone. 

Modifié par Gaiden96, 09 avril 2012 - 08:22 .

[Rammastus]

Gaiden96 wrote...

 OP watch this video and you'll see the problems with all this.
Link:

Watched half the video before quitting because of all the holes in his logic.  Even though he has a lot of holes in his logic, he did also make a few points. But I'm tired so I'm going to bed.

[Suikoden]

Gaiden96 wrote...

 OP watch this video and you'll see the problems with all this.
Link:

Fair enough, but to some people this video makes way more sense.

Link:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ythY_GkEBck

Modifié par beutelmarkus, 09 avril 2012 - 08:29 .

[Wolf]

Rammastus wrote...

Watched half the video before quitting because of all the holes in his logic.  Even though he has a lot of holes in his logic, he did also make a few points. But I'm tired so I'm going to bed.

I advise you to watch the whole video before forming an opinion. And if you don't mind, let me know where you think the holes in his logic are. 

[Wolf]

beutelmarkus wrote...

Fair enough, but to some people this video makes way more sense.

Link:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ythY_GkEBck

I chose this one because although it is a bit more complex, it doesn't push the IT or anything else. It just points out the problems.

Modifié par Gaiden96, 09 avril 2012 - 08:32 .

[Mikokami]

Amioran wrote...

A) You don't know the development of the story in the background.
You don't know if this is an "ending" (in the full sense) or not.
C) I think I've seen "a little" more endings than you in my life, thanks, and I know "a little" more than you (probably) what constitues "good" or "bad" writing (having myself a real background on this) to judge for myself what is what without your "expert" help, thanks.
D) Changing my opinion based on what? Things you probably know nothing about and yet people continue to talk about as if they are experts? You can try if you want, but if this is the beginning...
E) Deus Ex Machina has been used many times in writing and this doesn't constitues per se "bad writing" at all. One can use it and use write badly, one can use it and write beautifully. The two things are completely non-sequitur one with another.

A) I know what i have learned so far, and from that i can evaluate and predict what my logic dictates. So in this aspect you are right, i cannot know, what i don't know. So i stick to "I know that i know nothing." about the development of the story in the background. But honestly, what do you know about that? I guess, you sir, don't know either.

BioWare says it is the ending, so saying it is not the ending in the full sense of it, what is it then, a mere cliffhanger? So this discussion ist not about a good, bad or ugly ending at all, but about a mediocre final part of ME3?

C&D) Yes you may think that, and to judge by oneself is always a good thing, but sharing views from time to time may enlighten yourself. Or is the horse to high you are sitting on?

E) As i wrote, deus ex machina for the final part of ME3 was and is a poor and lazy solution in my oppinion. From what they had, they used it badly. But i have to confess, i was spoilt from the predecessors and expected, i truly believed for something more fullfilling for my investment. But as Schoppenhauer said: "No money is more profitable invested, as this, by which we have been dined and dashed: because for that we immediatly exchanged prudence."

Modifié par Mikokami, 09 avril 2012 - 09:00 .

[Valkyre4]

kbct wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

OutlawTorn6806 wrote...

Get ready for Kbct and his crew. And his poll. lol

So true.

Okay, fair enough. No polls for now. How about this? This is the best gif I've seen for ME3:

actually the ending of that gif is the best part...

[Lobinic]

The end is bad and here you have a video explaining ten plot hole of because.

[chester013]

So the ending is good because it doesn't have plot holes so long as I make some wild assumptions?

Ok, so if I ignore those explain to me how making several grave mistakes in the telling of the story are good?

How is ignoring the details of a rich sci-fi universe in favour of space magic, changing the central conflict, abandoning character focus and all semblance of a coherent narrative good? Not only that but doing it in just 14 lines of dialogue, how is that good?

[Amioran]

Mikokami wrote...
A) I know what i have learned so far, and from that i can evaluate and predict what my logic dictates. So in this aspect you are right, i cannot know, what i don't know. So i stick to "I know that i know nothing." about the development of the story in the background. But honestly, what do you know about that? I guess, you sir, don't know either.

And in fact it's not me that pretends to judge what's what atm.

Mikokami wrote...
BioWare says it is the ending, so saying it is not the ending in the full sense of it, what is it then, a mere cliffhanger? So this discussion ist not about a good, bad or ugly ending at all, but about a mediocre final part of ME3?

Saying a thing is the "ending" can mean many different things. The problem is that people want to give the word only a meaning just so they can fire at it.

As for the "mediocre final part" you cannot say it until you don't know what's to come next. It's impossible to judge a momentum until it's not ended, as it is impossible to judge what's a moment of peace until you don't know what's war.

Mikokami wrote...
C&D) Yes you may think that, and to judge by oneself is always a good thing, but sharing views from time to time may enlighten yourself. Or is the horse to high you are sitting on?

Sharing an opinion is a totally different thing than stating a judgment. They are two separate concepts that requires completely different skills and knowledge.

Mikokami wrote...
E) As i wrote, deus ex machina for the final part of ME3 was and is a poor and lazy solution in my oppinion. From what they had, they used it badly. But i have to confess, i was spoilt from the predecessors and expected, i truly believed for something more fullfilling for my investment. But as Schoppenhauer said: "No money is more profitable invested, as this, by which we have been dined and dashed: because for that we immediatly exchanged prudence."

That in your opinion it was a lazy solution has nothing to do with "bad writing". Deus Ex Machina is a good philosophical concept that's been used in the past many times. All the occidental religion is based on it in reality (the concepts of Allah and Jehovah are all about order vs. chaos) so it is a fundamental aspec of "our" philosophy.

Modifié par Amioran, 09 avril 2012 - 09:26 .