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Small LI Improvements for/in DLCs, w/Minimal Dev Resources


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#1
lillitheris

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I'd like to propose some small enhancements for romances. They should be easy to implement (insofar as anything about game development is easy), as they need no new dialogue/VA, no new models, etc.; but despite being minor, can significantly enhance the character interaction – which is especially important for closure for ME3.
 :wub:

Obviously the ideal would be if all could be implemented, but adding any of these would be an improvement. They're not really dependent on eachother, and they're not in order of preference or importance, really.

ME3's in a curious place because it needs to work for both those new to the game, and those who've been carrying romances from ME or ME2. For the former, it makes sense to prolong the “consummation” of the romance (whatever it is in that particular case), but not so for the established couples. It's actually a little jarring that the ME2 romances are kind of businesslike with you – for a long time! At the same time, for new characters that's fine.

Therefore, I suggest that these changes only apply to characters that are tagged as ME2 imports, and have romances that are not broken up at the end of ME2.

There's a common argument that too much romance would be a distraction from the war. There's two things wrong with this…first, the end of the world (typically) makes you want to hang out with your loved ones while you can, whether it's holding hands, or data mining ancient documents or cleaning rifles together. Secondly, there's a lot of downtime in space travel still. It takes at least hours to fly from a relay to the center of a system (I don't think it's ever mentioned explicitly, but think the travel time from the mass relay to the Omega relay in ME2), and FTL travel between systems can be even longer. As always, if a character doesn't want to partake in romantics – being all war business, for example – they can opt out just as they normally do.

In short, time is not a problem.

I've broken these up in three groups. The first are the hopefully simple things common to all romances that are the main focus of this post (although most powerful for Normandiers). The second group are less simple things that I'm fairly sure can't be added but that are important enough to mention on the off-chance anyway, and third group are (small) changes to individual LIs. The latter two can be considered more optional than this first one.


Common Simple Improvements
These require minimal dialogue – and all of it can be repurposed from existing material. No new VA is needed. Most if not all of the animation should also be present already. So, without further ado, some of my suggestions:

  • Don't force the Friend Zone. Example: Liara. Despite talking about having kids and reaffirming twice, her Citadel date still talks about being friends. Facepalm. So, here's a simple framework (for all LIs):
    • If the relationship isn't broken off in the end of ME2, assume it's still on. The first talk should reflect that (e.g. “I missed you!”). At this point, the player can either reaffirm (“Me too, let's never be apart”) or break it off (“Yeah, we need to talk…”).
    • If the relationship wasn't broken off (in the first meeting or later), do not take it back to the friend zone. Preferably all the other enhancements should apply, but at least that much.
    • The player can break off the relationship explicitly at a later point – well, preferably explicitly. Any potential other LI should ask Shepard to break up before taking the last step, but I suppose that can be optional.
  • Touching (and looks). I don't mean groping, but the more mundane gestures in normal situations (i.e. any dialogue/room/cutscene, not a special “love scene”). These include hugs, hand on the shoulder or back, touching the arm or hand when leaving, touching the chin, cheek, hair, meaningful looks. Also, proximity. The LI NPC could stand a little closer than other NPCs. Liara has the lap animation that can be reused even for other characters? Neck rubs?
  • Fade to black (or fade out-fade in) talks/activity. Again, I don't mean naughty activities (or talk), but simply something that establishes more normalcy in the relationship (if you think that end of the world would prevent people from doing that, you're wrong ;)). This is pretty easily done: either the LI finds Shepard or the other way around (sitting on a chair could be a trigger condition for Shepard), Shep/LI does a quick “I just want to talk”, then optionally throw in one or two pre-existing dialogue lines about something mundane, then fade to black, then fade back in with Shep/LI saying “I'll see/talk to you later”, “bye”, or whatever. This can be restricted to location like the captain's cabin, the lounge, cafes on the Citadel or whatever. (Incidentally, I think this should be available for squaddies too, but that's outside this proposal.)
  • Tying into the former, if the LI is on the Normandy, they should occasionally be found in the captain's cabin or come in when the player's there. If deemed appropriate, there could be a short “can I come by” -> “anytime” dialogue (which again should be easy to grab from existing material). I don't really think it's necessary, though, after the confirmation that the relationship continues.
  • If the LI is on the Normandy, LI should be in the bed (or just in the room, e.g. Liara could be moved) when Shepard wakes from nightmares. Add just short glimpse of a comforting hug or “everything alright?”, and then fade to black and continue from the normal place. Alternatively, Shepard could be shown to go seek them out when (s)he wakes up, and do a fade to black.
  • In fact, the kid in the nightmare sequences could be replaced with your LI. That'd be much more impactful.
  • Emails. For the LIs not on board the Normandy (and maybe those who are, occasionally?), you should have some kind of correspondence from. Emails before you meet up with them again would be nice, too.
:wub:


Common Nontrivial Things
  • All LIs should have a discussion about future plans. This should include at least Shepard's opinion on children: yes (for human/asari LI) / adopt war orphans / no. Note that (I think) Liara already broaches children, and Garrus adoption.
:wub:


LI-specific Small Changes
  • Liara: Obviously the best off, but has two fairly important changes
    • Shepard really shouldn't have to reaffirm the relationship 3 (or is it 4?) times, when it's carried in ME, ME2 and now ME3. Especially the Citadel scene, Shepard's said it twice already. Just cut out some dialogue and leave a quiet moment in which Shepard can say that (s)he wants to be with Liara forever. Leave out the friend line completely. If you can find some line about bondmate, the better.
    • Comforting Liara after Thessia should involve lots more hugging.
  • Tali: Broadly, no big issues at any point
    • The picture.
    • Shepard should get e-mails from Tali before the Rannoch missions. Tali can definitely be ambiguous about where she is and what she's doing, but give us something at least.
    • There are some places in the romance, where the player could be given the chance to be a little more emotional and say “I love you” and so on.
  • Jacob (the two-timing bastage :P):
    • Paragon option to inform his wife about his evil ways, and a Renegade option to kick him in the gentleman area.
  • Kelly
    • Regular emails to play off from how the relationship started in ME2. Could be originated from “Kellygrrl” as originally, and perhaps altered to something similar when she goes to hiding.
    • Kelly could also send you new varieties of fish.
    • Because Kelly's gift is a picture of her, it should also be interactable like the Tali picture - you should be able to pick it up and look at it.


Anyone have other suggestions? Remember, these should all be very simple, with minimal requirements. I know that some LI's could really use work for their main love scene too, but that's outside the scope of these proposals.

Modifié par lillitheris, 05 juillet 2012 - 03:15 .


#2
lillitheris

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One bump in case any of you have ideas/input/support… and a few more ideas later on tonight when I get back!

:wub::wub::wub:

Modifié par lillitheris, 09 avril 2012 - 04:54 .


#3
Sealy

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Is this for the extended cut? Since Garrus is my LI anything in the extended cut I hope clarifys thats he had to be forced to leave and that he doesn't starve later. :D Maybe eventually they find eachother again? Even if it's at that heaven!bar.

#4
Iakus

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If we're talking Extended Cut, then I'd suggest:

Any ending in which both Shepard and the LI survive should included a passionate reunion between them. No dialogue even needed, jsut an embrace. Maybe have the LI lend Shepard a shoulder if he/she is still all banged up.

#5
lillitheris

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iakus wrote...

If we're talking Extended Cut, then I'd suggest:

Any ending in which both Shepard and the LI survive should included a passionate reunion between them. No dialogue even needed, jsut an embrace. Maybe have the LI lend Shepard a shoulder if he/she is still all banged up.


I'm fairly confident they're already adding that under guise of ‘clarification’ ;)

But, yeah, I think especially for ME3, it'd be nice to have a carried LI be a little special the entire time. With what is (hopefully) only a small additional effort on BioWare's part.

#6
lillitheris

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One additional idea would be using the “cellphone” earpiece (or the intercom) where your LI would occasionally just call to say hi and reuse some earlier mundane dialogue (can't really do the fade to black here, it could be disruptive).

Modifié par lillitheris, 10 avril 2012 - 02:07 .


#7
kalle90

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One thing that stick out like a sore thumb for me: When you hug Liara on Citadel the screen just kinda flashes with Shepard standing where he was and Liara back leaning on the railing. To me that was a huge "Really Bioware, you couldn't be bothered to do a 2 second animation? Or maybe my Shepard was imagining that entire bit? Indoc?"

And the final flashback. Why?

#8
78stonewobble

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I think these are excellent suggestions. Had myself thought of the one of finding the Li in the captain's cabin. Heck he/she could have "moved in".

And yes it shouldn't/wouldn't be about "naughty activities" but to... well resemble a relationship.

Not necessarily everything should be implemented but sometimes it doesn't take much to make an emotional impact.



EDIT: NO CELL PHONE ANALOGUE!!! ... It will just end up being sponsored by Nokia or something... :(

Modifié par 78stonewobble, 10 avril 2012 - 02:07 .


#9
lillitheris

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78stonewobble wrote...

I think these are excellent suggestions. Had myself thought of the one of finding the Li in the captain's cabin. Heck he/she could have "moved in".


Yeah. I figure a visit is probably better since they usually have their regular place but already occasionally wander around. Plus then the nightmare scenes to further bolster the impression.

And yes it shouldn't/wouldn't be about "naughty activities" but to... well resemble a relationship.


Exactly, normal stuff you'd expect! It feels kinda weird that you're all business almost the entire time (I exaggerate a little). And still leaves the crescendo, if you will, for the end.

Not necessarily everything should be implemented but sometimes it doesn't take much to make an emotional impact.


I think these should be relatively easy to do, those subtle things that make a big difference.


EDIT: NO CELL PHONE ANALOGUE!!! ... It will just end up being sponsored by Nokia or something... :(


Haha! I meant the earpiece radio thing they use, but maybe the intercom would be OK since they seem to use it anyway.

#10
JBONE27

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I like it. Talking, laughing, having a meal togeather, etc. Seems solid.

#11
lillitheris

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JBONE27 wrote...

I like it. Talking, laughing, having a meal togeather, etc. Seems solid.


Ah! Yes, the mess hall on the Normandy is completely unused, too.

#12
78stonewobble

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You have my vote :)

There was the suggestion of an onboard poker game. That would give some "off-duty" content as well.

Could also be an opportunity to add a bit of Li material (through eg. reuse).

#13
lillitheris

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Poker sounds fine (so long as it's not the only thing) :)

I don't really think the reuse would be a problem at all…there's so much material from the three games containing all kinds of mundane stuff that it'd work just fine.

#14
macrocarl

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Yeah I'm hoping for one more romantic embrace between LI's (if either of them are still alive) or if ol' Shep is toast, if the LI lives maybe have a touching non-VO's moment where they are shown remembering him/ her.

#15
Ross42899

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For an possible epilogue cutscene, showing what will happen to your LI after the end of the game, the Devs should IMO consider this:

- if Liara was romanced (by male or female Shepard) show Liara with a little blue baby
- if Tali/Miranda/Ashley were romanced (by male Shepard) show them pregnant or also with a little baby

So you can see that something of Shepard will continue to exist in his/her offspring, even after Shepard's death.

#16
78stonewobble

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Ross42899 wrote...

For an possible epilogue cutscene, showing what will happen to your LI after the end of the game, the Devs should IMO consider this:

- if Liara was romanced (by male or female Shepard) show Liara with a little blue baby
- if Tali/Miranda/Ashley were romanced (by male Shepard) show them pregnant or also with a little baby

So you can see that something of Shepard will continue to exist in his/her offspring, even after Shepard's death.


Mef... I would think Tali / Shep would be incompatible. :s

#17
lillitheris

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I don't want to go too deep into the epilogue stuff which, while definitely a huge part of the overall LI experience – I think is probably best handled in a separate topic :)

#18
dfstone

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I'd like more relationshipy stuff to go on during the game though. Your LI pretty much acts like any other crew member up until your big love scene before the final mission.

#19
78stonewobble

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lillitheris wrote...

I don't want to go too deep into the epilogue stuff which, while definitely a huge part of the overall LI experience – I think is probably best handled in a separate topic :)


This is more of a game immersion than ending topic right? :)

#20
lillitheris

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78stonewobble wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

I don't want to go too deep into the epilogue stuff which, while definitely a huge part of the overall LI experience – I think is probably best handled in a separate topic :)


This is more of a game immersion than ending topic right? :)


Precisely!

(:wub::wub::wub::wub:)

#21
blmlozz

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love the suggestions, but I foresee a problem;

as easy as these would be, it's just as easy to dismiss it all with the comment;
Bioware with a troll face;
the Normandy is an Alliance military ship. internal fraternization is generally frowned upon. 




infact, in me1 I seem to remember the vs li mention this particularly.

Modifié par blmlozz, 10 avril 2012 - 04:27 .


#22
Little Princess Peach

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I love this idea 5 stars

#23
JBONE27

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blmlozz wrote...

love the suggestions, but I foresee a problem;

as easy as these would be, it's just as easy to dismiss it all with the comment;
Bioware with a troll face;
the Normandy is an Alliance military ship. internal fraternization is generally frowned upon. 




infact, in me1 I seem to remember the vs li mention this particularly.

And yet, having a boxing match with one of your subordinates is okay.

#24
78stonewobble

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blmlozz wrote...

love the suggestions, but I foresee a problem;

as easy as these would be, it's just as easy to dismiss it all with the comment;
Bioware with a troll face;
the Normandy is an Alliance military ship. internal fraternization is generally frowned upon. 




infact, in me1 I seem to remember the vs li mention this particularly.


While I can't do anything versus deus ex bioware troll face...

Regarding the normandy being an alliance ship. I think Shepard has earned a little leeway and technically some of the Li's are not alliance crewmembers. More like guests. *cough*

#25
Little Princess Peach

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What abut a ceremony/wedding at the end you don't need different ones for each LI just have the same thing for each li and same animations and then fade to credits