273 réponses à ce sujet

[Nightwriter]

A salute to lillitheris for coming up with doable improvements that actually seem within the realm of practical implementation. Amazing how much those little touches would improve the impact of the romance.

[TMA LIVE]

http://social.biowar.../index/11550249

Romance Pack idea.

[Emeraldfern]

 
I'm going to add my 2'cents as a Thane & Jacobmancer

On Thane:
I know retconning Thane's death is development wise, a big undertaking, but to me who had Thane as my main L.I. it's the only way I can honestly say I'd be satisfied.

Now, to go with the nature of this thread how could this be implemented with as little resources as possible?
With a Fetchquest for drell blood and E-mails.
The fetchquest could be initiated through some terminal at Huerta Memorial Hospital (ala the ME1 assignments), and direct you to a star system (bonus points if it is a system related to the drell/hanar).
If the fetchquest is done before the citadel coup then Thane *survives*. Don't get me wrong, the coup would still play out the same way ie. Thane is stabbed, goes through surgery, says prayer, and is *seemingly* dead.

Return to Normandy. A new Email at your private terminal states that Thane survived but he is comatose.

Further on in the game (after priority missions), Kolyat emails you with updates on Thane's condition, additionally Kolyat's stance on the Thane/Shep could be elaborated as well as Kolyat's plans on the future. 

During the last mission (when you say your "farewells" to your squad), a final email is sent by Thane himself, he has recovered. and offers his prayers for Shepard in the upcoming battle. He also hints that he considers to undergo a lung transplant. He also gives his thought on what he wants to with Shepard after the Reapers are defeated.

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This if imlpemented, would actually give me a reason to actually play the game again. And I think other Siha's would at least partially agree with me on this point. Also, no VA work would be required at all.

-----
On to Jacob:
Email.
An email were he not only extends an apology to Shepard, but also reveals that *gasp* Brynn Cole was lying about the baby.
If the player does not woo any other romance interests (such as Kaidan and Traynor) the correspondance between Shepard and Jacob continues throughout the game (like Thane's, a new message after each priority mission)
In these emails, Jacob could contemplate the War (such as the situation on Rannoch, Thessia etc) The email after the Chronos station could elaborate more on his stance against Cerberus and disappointment that TIM wasn't there.

---------
And again no VA work would be required.
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Yeah, my 2 cents.
Whishful thinking at best I guess, but hope dies last doesn't it?

[Edit] And dammit give those two romances the Paramour achievment!
I mean there are already romance flags for them, it shouldn't be that *hard* to have them trigger the achievment.

Modifié par Emeraldfern, 20 avril 2012 - 04:44 .

[lillitheris]

TMA LIVE wrote...

http://social.biowar.../index/11550249

Romance Pack idea.

Good to see that in one way, got lots of support. Unfortunately the other side is the same as with anything: people seem to have very little interest in actually thinking about what they'd want to see in it, beyond their favourite at least – although, admittedly, I didn't read the entire 13 pages. Wish I had 13 pages here

[lillitheris]

Emeraldfern wrote...

I'm going to add my 2'cents as a Thane & Jacobmancer

I like both ideas, especially the Thane. Jacob is a little more problematic, he seems to have been permanently written out. It could work, I suppose, on the principles that he'd only remembered his feelings when seeing Shepard in person and was regretting his rebound to Brynn.

[Versidious]

I think that what happened with Jacob was a bit of a dick move
to Jacobmancers, and am fine with that being retconned in some way, but I don't think that Thane should live.
The whole premise of his character, and indeed his romance arc, is that he is a dying man seeking redemption for his crimes. Romancing him helps to bring him peace and joy at the end of his life. He states explicitly
that a cure is decades off! I just feel having him live at the last minute, especially if revealed over email, would be cheap, and reduce the emotional power of his entire story.

However, I do think that there ought to be a bit more to it, and some of Shepard's responses to Thane are indicative of a bit of a writing issue that Bioware has had with many characters in this game - including the much-envied-by-all Liara romance sub-plot* - which is that you behave as friends and colleagues at points where lovers would behave very differently. At the end of the day, it's further evidence to my mind that Bioware rushed their writing, and preferred to spend money on an iPad game than on actual game plot.   :-P

*I've played through with several characters, and although Liara has more interactions with the player than other characters, she also calls you her friend just about all the time, even when you've said you want kids with her in LotS, and then once you've triggered the Paramour achievement, all but ignores you until the end, which is just, really odd. Ash/Kaidan is also pretty bad for this, given the stuff you've been through with them.

Modifié par Versidious, 20 avril 2012 - 02:59 .

[lillitheris]

Versidious wrote...


I think that what happened with Jacob was a bit of a dick move
to Jacobmancers, and am fine with that being retconned in some way, but I don't think that Thane should live.
The whole premise of his character, and indeed his romance arc, is that he is a dying man seeking redemption for his crimes. Romancing him helps to bring him peace and joy at the end of his life. He states explicitly
that a cure is decades off! I just feel having him live at the last minute, especially if revealed over email, would be cheap, and reduce the emotional power of his entire story.

I agree on the entire arc, but the way I read it was that Thane would survive the wounding, which I think would be completely acceptable. He could then stick around 'til the end – being on the Citadel also explaining lack of communication toward the end. The actual cure or lack thereof would be left for fanfic in that case.

However, I do think that there ought to be a bit more to it, and some of Shepard's responses to Thane are indicative of a bit of a writing issue that Bioware has had with many characters in this game - including the much-envied-by-all Liara romance sub-plot* - which is that you behave as friends and colleagues at points where lovers would behave very differently. At the end of the day, it's further evidence to my mind that Bioware rushed their writing, and preferred to spend money on an iPad game than on actual game plot.   :-P

ME2 was a little similar in that respect, although of course the only carried-over romance with any screen time was Liara. The treatment was basically the same there, although it's discussed a little later on. I dunno if it's just something they don't think of or, what I think is more likely, they make it that way because it's easier to treat carried-over and new romances more or less the same.

*I've played through with several characters, and although Liara has more interactions with the player than other characters, she also calls you her friend just about all the time, even when you've said you want kids with her in LotS, and then once you've triggered the Paramour achievement, all but ignores you until the end, which is just, really odd. Ash/Kaidan is also pretty bad for this, given the stuff you've been through with them.

Yep, it's massively irritating in retrospect.

Modifié par lillitheris, 20 avril 2012 - 03:27 .

[Versidious]

lillitheris wrote...

Versidious wrote...

I think that what happened with Jacob was a bit of a dick move
to Jacobmancers, and am fine with that being retconned in some way, but I don't think that Thane should live.
The whole premise of his character, and indeed his romance arc, is that he is a dying man seeking redemption for his crimes. Romancing him helps to bring him peace and joy at the end of his life. He states explicitly
that a cure is decades off! I just feel having him live at the last minute, especially if revealed over email, would be cheap, and reduce the emotional power of his entire story.

I agree on the entire arc, but the way I read it was that Thane would survive the wounding, which I think would be completely acceptable. He could then stick around 'til the end – being on the Citadel also explaining lack of communication toward the end. The actual cure or lack thereof would be left for fanfic in that case.

Maybe. If you're going to rely on fanfic anyway, you might as well strip Thane's death out of your headcanon anyway! I have though of how I might accept a cure, though: If it resulted in his son's death. His son is the only compatible donor on the Citadel, so, say, a lung transplant to prolong his life, which you'd have to charm Thane into (But which Kolyat would be completely up for), but which results in Kolyat's death on the operating table anyway, thus keeping the tragedy of his arc in tact.   Otherwise, it removes the Death's Shadow from his story retroactively (In the same way that exposing the Reapers as slaves to something else's will retroactively in That Ending reduces their menace and alters their perceived nature when you play ME1), and makes a cure too sugar-sweet to fit.

lillitheris wrote...

However, I do think that there ought to be a bit more to it, and some of Shepard's responses to Thane are indicative of a bit of a writing issue that Bioware has had with many characters in this game - including the much-envied-by-all Liara romance sub-plot* - which is that you behave as friends and colleagues at points where lovers would behave very differently. At the end of the day, it's further evidence to my mind that Bioware rushed their writing, and preferred to spend money on an iPad game than on actual game plot.   :-P

ME2 was a little similar in that respect, although of course the only carried-over romance with any screen time was Liara. The treatment was basically the same there, although it's discussed a little later on. I dunno if it's just something they don't think of or, what I think is more likely, they make it that way because it's easier to treat carried-over and new romances more or less the same.

I don't know if I agree...   Possibly pre Shadow-Broker DLC, I would, but when you play LotS, you do get a discussion with her which explains her behaviour, as well as a bit of romance. However, *apparently* ME2 did suffer from insufficient dev time here. There was *apparently* a greater intention initially of all three ME1 romance characters playing a role in the game. Not as squadmates, but a bit more face time at least. Apparently. (But don't quote me on that, I can't remember where I read it)

lillitheris wrote...

*I've played through with several characters, and although Liara has more interactions with the player than other characters, she also calls you her friend just about all the time, even when you've said you want kids with her in LotS, and then once you've triggered the Paramour achievement, all but ignores you until the end, which is just, really odd. Ash/Kaidan is also pretty bad for this, given the stuff you've been through with them.

Yep, it's massively irritating in retrospect.

I would have at least liked to see a catch-up with Ash/Kaidan. They've obviously been doing a lot of stuff since ME1, and ME2, one would expect to talk about that, their career advancement, etc, even if they're not romanced, and especially so if they were.

Edit: Fixed my quoting tags...

Modifié par Versidious, 20 avril 2012 - 04:49 .

[lillitheris]

Versidious wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

Versidious wrote...

I think that what happened with Jacob was a bit of a dick move
to Jacobmancers, and am fine with that being retconned in some way, but I don't think that Thane should live.
The whole premise of his character, and indeed his romance arc, is that he is a dying man seeking redemption for his crimes. Romancing him helps to bring him peace and joy at the end of his life. He states explicitly
that a cure is decades off! I just feel having him live at the last minute, especially if revealed over email, would be cheap, and reduce the emotional power of his entire story.

I agree on the entire arc, but the way I read it was that Thane would survive the wounding, which I think would be completely acceptable. He could then stick around 'til the end – being on the Citadel also explaining lack of communication toward the end. The actual cure or lack thereof would be left for fanfic in that case.

Maybe. If you're going to rely on fanfic anyway, you might as well strip Thane's death out of your headcanon anyway!

Well, no…I don't think a cure is necessary in the series. I just mean that if we can retcon the travesty of handling his ‘death’ by making him actually survive – after all, I don't think it's actually said anywhere that he dies in that scene? I didn't romance, so I dunno if there's something else in that case. This leaves us, at the end, with a still-dying oh-so-tragic-romance Thane. This will allow players the choice of headcanoning a cure in the future somewhere, if they so desire, but the story ends as it was intended to before they forgot that Thane was a LI.

I don't know if I agree...   Possibly pre Shadow-Broker DLC, I would, but when you play LotS, you do get a discussion with her which explains her behaviour, as well as a bit of romance.

Only barely; but then again, the only person who was genuinely enthusiastic about seeing Shepard right off the bat in ME2 was Wrex. Hell, you didn't even get a hug from Tali

My larger point was really only that I don't think this is a new pattern, they're just doing basically the same (wrong) thing as they did in ME2. It's more visible because of the general lack of polish in ME3, definitely.

As for the catch-up…all that would be awesome, and hopefully we'll see something like that in a DLC featuring the characters (Ash could join Miri for a Cerberus thing? Kaidan + Jack, maybe even Samara for a biotic-themed thing).

In the meanwhile, I think the fade-to-black discussions could sort of work in that capacity?

[Emeraldfern]

Versidious wrote...


I think that what happened with Jacob was a bit of a dick move
to Jacobmancers, and am fine with that being retconned in some way, but I don't think that Thane should live.
The whole premise of his character, and indeed his romance arc, is that he is a dying man seeking redemption for his crimes. Romancing him helps to bring him peace and joy at the end of his life. He states explicitly
that a cure is decades off! I just feel having him live at the last minute, especially if revealed over email, would be cheap, and reduce the emotional power of his entire story.

*It is not my intent to be rude, so I hope you don't find this post to be some kind of attack on you. It honestly isn't meant to be that, It's just meant to be a clarification on my view

Actually, his romance arc was that he found a reason to live and that he no longer is at peace with dying. 

His reasoning for redemption is not only because he is dying, but also because he took the lives of people out of his own free will as opposed to fulfilling someones contract. His disease had him less concerned about his body i.e the well being of his soul was more important than that of his body (after all he considers the soul to be his "true" self).
But then he finds something, or rather someone, to live for (Shepard).


Hell I won't lie, I would be on cloud nine if there was a DLC to cure him, but at the same time I realise that leaving it up to interpretation would probably be better in the end, hence the drell blood fetchquest.

As for the email being too impersonal, the reason that it would be an email is because it keeps resources at minimum.
Would I want the emails to be fully voiced convos? Of course I would. I would love it!
But having them non-voiced is development wise, the easiest and cheapest solution. Is it the most emotionally satisfying solution? No. But it's closer than what we got in the game.

[Edit]

lillitheris wrote...

I like both ideas, especially the Thane. Jacob is a little more problematic, he seems to have been permanently written out. It could work, I suppose, on the principles that he'd only remembered his feelings when seeing Shepard in person and was regretting his rebound to Brynn.

Well the main problem with Jacob's romance is Brynn Cole. I did brainstorm on as to why he would leave Brynn to be with Shepard instead, and the most logical conclusion I found was that maybe Brynn lled to Jacob about the baby? After all Brynn is already borderline manipulative as it is, since she admits that she knew that Jacob still had feelings for Shepard when she went after him.

Modifié par Emeraldfern, 20 avril 2012 - 08:26 .

[lillitheris]

Emeraldfern wrote...
Hell I won't lie, I would be on cloud nine if there was a DLC to cure him, but at the same time I realise that leaving it up to interpretation would probably be better in the end, hence the drell blood fetchquest.

Agreed. There is a mention of a cure and a transplant option in LotSB, too, but I think it works better left out. Or for DLC post-ending.

As for the email being too impersonal, the reason that it would be an email is because it keeps resources at minimum.
Would I want the emails to be fully voiced convos? Of course I would. I would love it!
But having them non-voiced is development wise, the easiest and cheapest solution. Is it the most emotionally satisfying solution? No. But it's closer than what we got in the game.

Yep, all these should be fairly easy/cheap to implement.

Well the main problem with Jacob's romance is Brynn Cole. I did brainstorm on as to why he would leave Brynn to be with Shepard instead, and the most logical conclusion I found was that maybe Brynn lled to Jacob about the baby? After all Brynn is already borderline manipulative as it is, since she admits that she knew that Jacob still had feelings for Shepard when she went after him.

Maybe. I think that might be a little too much for just e-mail. I think solving the Jacob situation needs to happen aside a mission DLC, it's too much otherwise. That is, if there's any

[TMA LIVE]

http://social.biowar...1302/1#11573046

An example of how small changes can make a difference, without changing anything.

[TMA LIVE]

I don't think the Jacob situation can be saved. Even if the pregnancy isn't true, the fact that Jacob slept with someone behind your back, and told you "Hey, I couldn't wait 6 months"... You shouldn't want a guy like that back. If anything, they should add James as an option so you can move on.

[TMA LIVE]

lillitheris wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

http://social.biowar.../index/11550249

Romance Pack idea.

Good to see that in one way, got lots of support. Unfortunately the other side is the same as with anything: people seem to have very little interest in actually thinking about what they'd want to see in it, beyond their favourite at least – although, admittedly, I didn't read the entire 13 pages. Wish I had 13 pages here

Yeah, a lot of the suggestions are falling under the unrealistic/expensive category. I wanted people to suggest little things Bioware could add that wouldn't cost them too much, as well as being profitable for them. Like another date. Or gifts. But what I got was either "fix ending first", or huge retcons and planets.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 20 avril 2012 - 11:08 .

[Versidious]

lillitheris wrote...

Versidious wrote...

*quoteception snip*

Well, no…I don't think a cure is necessary in the series. I just mean that if we can retcon the travesty of handling his ‘death’ by making him actually survive – after all, I don't think it's actually said anywhere that he dies in that scene? I didn't romance, so I dunno if there's something else in that case. This leaves us, at the end, with a still-dying oh-so-tragic-romance Thane. This will allow players the choice of headcanoning a cure in the future somewhere, if they so desire, but the story ends as it was intended to before they forgot that Thane was a LI.

His name is put on the memorial list. And Shepard does say that he died a hero when actually in the scene. He is definitely dead! I feel that Thane being in a coma and waking up is still a bit of a trope, but maybe if you've romanced him, he's actually had an operation to extend his life, and so is healthier when operated on post-Leng?

lillitheris wrote...

I don't know if I agree...   Possibly pre Shadow-Broker DLC, I would, but when you play LotS, you do get a discussion with her which explains her behaviour, as well as a bit of romance.

Only barely; but then again, the only person who was genuinely enthusiastic about seeing Shepard right off the bat in ME2 was Wrex. Hell, you didn't even get a hug from Tali

Shepard *does* get a hug and light nuzzle from Liara! And Wrex is, well, Wrex. Brodnot Wrex, the Brogan (I'm still really sad that we didn't get more of Wrex in ME3. I would've loved leading a Wrex/Grunt team against a load of cocky Reapers). But yeah, I agree, more hugs (Though with Tali, I sort of felt she was feeling a bit awkward and uncertain, so a hug perhaps wouldn't have been natural. But Wrex always knew you'd come back from being spaced. He knows you've got the heart of a krogan, even if not the redundant nervous system).

lillitheris wrote...
My larger point was really only that I don't think this is a new pattern, they're just doing basically the same (wrong) thing as they did in ME2. It's more visible because of the general lack of polish in ME3, definitely.

As for the catch-up…all that would be awesome, and hopefully we'll see something like that in a DLC featuring the characters (Ash could join Miri for a Cerberus thing? Kaidan + Jack, maybe even Samara for a biotic-themed thing).

In the meanwhile, I think the fade-to-black discussions could sort of work in that capacity?

I'm definitely a fan fo the fade-to black discussions, if done right. And yeah, it's a general sign of ME3 being rushed Not quite DA2 rushed, but still, definitely rushed.

I've been trying to think of character specific DLC. You couldn't have it Loyalty-mission style, where the only concern is to help a friend in need, because apocalypse. They'd have to address war-relevant situations. So, you could have yourself and Ash/Kaiden taking part in a group Spectre Operation, maybe against Cerberus, so you can also recruit Miranda/Jacob to it as an advisor. You could also get some tasty 'Spectre Prototype' gear as a reward. Jack could join you for an Alliance strike mission with her team, to a human colony world, where you unexpectedly meet her mother? Maybe take Garrus down to Palaven get a prototype Turian weapon? See a bit of actual Palaven and get a smexy new gun/shield/something else out of it? Perhaps take Tali or Liara to examine an ancient, millions year old derelict AI ship *that is not a Reaper*? Maybe to the Crypts of the Beings of Light? Plenty of things that can give additional dialogue to characters...  And all of them are based on the actual war. Especially since that last one could allow them to retcon the catalyst's nature in some manner, maybe address some of our issues with it?

Modifié par Versidious, 20 avril 2012 - 11:50 .

[lillitheris]

We'll have to agree to disagree on ME2

Good reminder about the wall…it will make things a bit harder. Of course those bits can just be removed, but it's a larger undertaking than just adding some emails.

[lillitheris]

Added a note about the friend zone in the OP.

Don't force the Friend Zone. Example: Liara. Despite talking about having kids and reaffirming twice, her Citadel date still talks about being friends. Facepalm. So, here's a simple framework:

• If the relationship isn't broken off in the end of ME2, assume it's still on. The first talk should reflect that (e.g. “I missed you!”). At this point, the player can either reaffirm (“Me too, let's never be apart”) or break it off (“Yeah, we need to talk…”).
• If the relationship wasn't broken off (in the first meeting or later), do not take it back to the friend zone. Preferably all the other enhancements should apply, but at least that much.
• The player can break off the relationship explicitly at a later point – well, preferably explicitly. Any potential other LI should ask Shepard to break up before taking the last step, but I suppose that can be optional.

Modifié par lillitheris, 21 avril 2012 - 04:02 .

[lillitheris]

Ops, reformat the earlier to indicate it's not Liara-specific.

[lillitheris]

Yay 5000 views.

No significant changes today…I've got a couple ideas on how the non-Normandy LIs could be handled better, but I have to try to reduce the development cost for those to be viable.

Anyone else have any good ideas?

[lillitheris]

lillitheris wrote...

No significant changes today…I've got a couple ideas on how the non-Normandy LIs could be handled better, but I have to try to reduce the development cost for those to be viable.

Turning out much harder than I thought. I can't really come up with anything much better than the presented options outside of actually introducing significant squad/romance or individual character DLC, unfortunately.

Does anyone have simple improvements for any other characters than Liara, Tali and Jacob (which I already have)?

[lillitheris]

Yay Monday-bump. Penny for your thoughts. Not really, I don't have any pennies.

[LelianaHawke]

For Kelly, regular emails would be nice, and would play off how she started your relationship (with emails in ME2). These emails should also be signed as Kellygrrl, like they were in ME2.

Kelly could also send you new varieties of fish.

Because Kelly's gift is a picture of her, it should also be interactable like the Tali picture - you should be able to pick it up and look at it.

Also, you should be able to invite her to go dancing at Afterlife.

But this is quickly going to go beyond the 'low cost solutions' approach. But those are some ideas.

Modifié par LelianaHawke, 23 avril 2012 - 03:45 .

[lillitheris]

^ I think the first three are reasonably doable, at least! There is, true enough, only so much that one could hope to see in the small enhancements.

[lillitheris]

lillitheris wrote...

^ I think the first three are reasonably doable, at least! There is, true enough, only so much that one could hope to see in the small enhancements.

…And added.

[BoneNinja]

I think these are good suggestions, and not "too much". I love the romances in Bioware games! And these are nice subtle things that I did indeed wish for while playing through ME3 (...and continue to on my re-playthroughs). Especially with Kaidan. I found some of his conversations outside of the "relationship milestone" conversations a bit...awkward...for being in a relationship. Like some are perfectly fine, some are absolutely adorable. I LOVE LOVE the little quip you can get where he starts with "You left without waking me..." ugh it just made me melt! And the pokes at his flirting ability and how he's apparently forgotten are cute. But sometimes I just felt like wow...this is WAY too professional for a personal conversation between boyfriend and girlfriend. The one instance that comes to mind is Kaidan talking about his father going MIA and presumed dead and then he talks about when this is over wanting to take his mom off world to travel. I was almost hurt by the fact there wasn't a simple reference to possible include my Shep in those plans. Something like "When this is over, maybe I'll take her off world like she's always dreamed. And..." with a shy glance up "...maybe you'd like to come too?" just...SOMETHING.

I also was really expecting and truly HOPING for a talk about thoughts on children or a future together after it was all done, something hopeful, something that they could look forward to in their darkest hour, something to plan for so they fight harder. I liked the last conversation between Kaidan and my FemShep. The last little cutscene of it where he pulls her in for a kiss with that type of feeling of "I don't care who sees anymore and who cares if this is against the rules anymore", and the last line he says about not being able to lose her again is soooo touching and heartfelt. But the rest of the conversation was...lacking. It was OK, but not very connective between Kaidan talking to the love of his life and thinking this could be "goodbye" again. I mean, THAT'S what he felt the need to share with her while thinking this? I was fine up until the "Sure, I have a few regrets..." perfect, PERFECT, opportunity to express some feeling at that point about things not said before THE LAST TIME SHE DIED. I would have liked to see at least a proposal here, something that showed they at least WANTED to spend the rest of their life together after this mess...regardless of whether they got to or not. I'm not sure a children conversation would work here (unless you did a type of proposal scene before the final assault then I would put some hints of that in it's place), but overall I think these should both be included in some fashion for all LIs. Especially since Liara and Garrus got the extra attention and got it included in their conversations (although Garrus's is much more blunt about it .) . *jealous*

I hope Bioware takes this into consideration for the extended cut, not likely, but I still hope. It's those tender moments between companions and love interests that truly make Bioware so special to me. I hate to see those relationships hurt now.