261 réponses à ce sujet

[Laurcus]

Arondell wrote...

Laurcus wrote...


Agreed. I don't know who this Arthur C. Clarke guy is, but he sounds like a moron. By nature, technology is something that must work within the laws of physics. Magic is under no such restriction. Therefore, no matter how advanced technology gets, magic can still do things that it cannot.

Though the limits of technology are not always portrayed correctly. Such as any movie with a backwards time machine. In Mass Effect specifically, you need to take into account the Mass Effect. Biotics, FTL travel, and many other things, are scientifically possibly in the setting because of that difference in the laws of physics.

I think your missing the point.  If we were to run into a civilization that had technology a thousand years more advanced then ours they would likely have access to equipment in whatever form that could do stuff that might seem flatly impossible to us.   You might conceptually be able to understand that its simply more advanced technology but for practical purposes it might as well be magic.  Hence it is indistinguishable.

That would simply represent a paradigm shift, revolutionary science. As such, it would rewrite our understanding of the laws of physics. That means what the technology achieves was always possible, we were just too stupid to figure it out.

If however, our assumptions about what is and is not possible is correct, then it is easy to see the limitations of technology.

It does not matter if technology continues to advance for the next 999 Ducentillion years, it will never be able to break the laws of physics. At best it can show us how our understanding of some concepts are flawed. Magic can literally do the impossible, hence it is NOT indistinguishable from technology.

Also, that line of reasoning is entirely flawed. Just because you don't understand someting doesn't mean it runs on magic. For practical purposes, for the average user, a computer may as well be indistinguishable from magic. Hell, I bet most people in this thread don't even know how a keyboard works, or what machine code, ASCII, and unicode even are. "My keyboard is magic because I'm ignorant!!!"

[Laurcus]

mumwaldee369 wrote...

CaliGuy033 wrote...

Laurcus wrote...

CaliGuy033 wrote...

How does running an electrical current through an element increase or decrease the mass of an object?

Why is heat hot? Because it just is. That is a property of that element which is unique to that setting.

Thank you.  So now I will move on to the thread question: How does Shepard jumping into the Crucible's beam turn the galaxy's life into organic-synthetic hybrids?  

Because it just does.   

Heat is not hot just because it is.  The laws of thermodynamics can be explained in detail.

Sorry, my explanation was over simplified, I will now complicate it for clarity.

Why do the laws of thermodynamics exist? If there is a principle, law, or explanation that says why the laws of thermodynamics exist, then why does that explanation exist? If there exists an explanation for that explanation, why does its explanation exist?

If you follow my line of reasoning to its conclusion, eventually you reach the creation of reality. Currently, modern science only has an explanation for how the observable universe was created, which is of course, the Big Bang. Modern science cannot explain the actual creation of reality itself, or in fact anything before the Big Bang.

So until further evidence comes to light, reality exists just because it does. So, if you follow my little logic train all the way back to the start, fire is indeed hot just because it is.

And my point, was that the Mass Effect and Element Zero are fundamental parts of the Mass Effect setting. Just as reality is fundamental to our own reality. It just is.

This does not however excuse the synthesis ending, as it was not shown to be a fundamental part of reality. At that point the writers were just making things up out of thin air.

Modifié par Laurcus, 10 avril 2012 - 07:17 .

[ZajoE38]

CDHarrisUSF wrote...

ZajoE38 wrote...

If you are looking for real world explanation, mathematical, biological and physical proof - I have to disappoint you. ME is sci-fi, not real-world simulator, nothing of it is valid in real world. It's a story of imagination. Mass effect as a whole is not valid in real world. So you can live with mass effect field, and you can't live with other things? Odd.

It's not up to me to engage my suspension of disbelief. It's the writer's job to write something believable enough to fly under my bulls#!t radar (at least to a cursory inspection). The mass effect is established early on, explained in enough detail over three games and multiple novels, and extrapolated in so many logical directions that I got over it pretty quickly. The difference is that this bulls#!t is not only introduced entirely in the span of one minute as a throw-away line at the very end of the game but is so patently ridiculous that I'm not sure even an hour of trying to justify it would be enough. I've written quite a long post about this subject in past discussions, but it's not worth digging up or rehashing yet again.

Of course, I grew up reading every Isaac Asimov story ever written (and many others, but he's still my favorite). So, perhaps I expect a bit more thought to be put into my sci-fi than most. He was a professor of biochemisty and even wrote a deadpan scientific paper called "The Endochronic Properties of Resublimated Thiotimoline" for fun. It's written as if someone is studying a fake chemical compound which, when mixed with water, actually begins to dissolve before it contacts the water and explores the ramifications that might have. There's also a follow-up paper called "The Micropsychiatric Applications of Thiotimoline" and an address to a fictional scientific society on the findings of his fictional research titled "Thiotimoline and the Space Age."

Ok, I take that.. but how is "combinig organic DNA with AI program and synthesis fabric to create a unique patters" less true than "element zero when exposed to electrical current will manipulate dark energy creating a field that can manupulate mass". 

Difference is in the source. I bet.. should my theory would be in codex, you would believe it without problem. Because Bioware says.. Simon says...  Ok, you got to admit -that there is no element zero, or dark energy (it has been recejted in modern physics - because it was just space magic a illusion with single purpose to make equations work), we are not spacefaring race, etc etc... ME is fantasy. Ok you must have codex to believe it. But codex doesn't say how mass relay work either.. suddenly, this is ok. 

Modifié par ZajoE38, 10 avril 2012 - 07:34 .

[Poison_Berrie]

ZajoE38 wrote...

Ok, I take that.. but how is "combinig organic DNA with AI program and synthesis fabric to create a unique patters" less true than "element zero when exposed to electrical current will manipulate dark energy creating a field that can manupulate mass". 

The difference is intent and where it is introduced. The Mass Effect universe wouldn't work without the mass effect, we are introduced to it at the start, given reasoning how it works and what it influences. 
The other is a throw away line at the very end, to bring up a concept we didn't really discuss all that much as a solution to a problem that the game before considered a side-plot.

Also combining AI programming with organic DNA would create... an Organic Intellegence. 

[NM_Che56]

Synthesis was introduced...maybe too subtley.

1) The Collectors.
2) Javik's comments about the Zha'til.
3) Shepard's reconstitution.
4) The Illusive Man's exposure to the artifact in Evolution (where he got those cybernetic eyes)
5) Saren's enhancements


Synthesis was there, it just wasn't given a name. I'm not saying it was handled well at the end, but it's not baseless.

[NM_Che56]

Laurcus wrote...

Just because you don't understand someting doesn't mean it runs on magic.

Well said. 

[YouHaveAProblem]

 The Mass Relays, biotic powers, asari melding and FTL travel/communication all have plausible scientific explanations, if you only bother checking the codex.

The ending "solution", however, is simply the most poorly constructed Deus Ex ever..

[NM_Che56]

YouHaveAProblem wrote...

 The Mass Relays, biotic powers, asari melding and FTL travel/communication all have plausible scientific explanations, if you only bother checking the codex.

The ending "solution", however, is simply the most poorly constructed Deus Ex ever..

Synthesis has plausible scientific explanations (nanoscience and genetic modifications).

[Red Dust]

Agreed. I don't know who this Arthur C. Clarke guy is, but he sounds like a moron. By nature, technology is something that must work within the laws of physics. Magic is under no such restriction. Therefore, no matter how advanced technology gets, magic can still do things that it cannot.

Arthur C Clarke was a genius (the actual kind). Author of 2001: A Space Odyssey series of books among many others, he was a prolific author of popular and scientifically "possible" science fiction (Including "Childhood's End", which is a personal favorite of mine.

In addition to being an author and so called "futurist", he was the inventor of the communication's satellite. He was also knighted by the queen. In other words, he knew more and accomplished more in his life than you're ever likely to, and the only one that sounds like a moron is you.

[NM_Che56]

Red Dust wrote...

Agreed. I don't know who this Arthur C. Clarke guy is, but he sounds like a moron. By nature, technology is something that must work within the laws of physics. Magic is under no such restriction. Therefore, no matter how advanced technology gets, magic can still do things that it cannot.

Arthur C Clarke was a genius (the actual kind). Author of 2001: A Space Odyssey series of books among many others, he was a prolific author of popular and scientifically "possible" science fiction (Including "Childhood's End", which is a personal favorite of mine.

In addition to being an author and so called "futurist", he was the inventor of the communication's satellite. He was also knighted by the queen. In other words, he knew more and accomplished more in his life than you're ever likely to, and the only one that sounds like a moron is you.

  Shoulda consulted wikipedia...

[goofyomnivore]

I've always wondered why we can't just go grab TIM and throw him in the beam. He is a hybrid like Shepard at this point.

[Icinix]

Well dur. I guess if you just don't understand it by now you never will.

I for one understand the endings, so can appreciate them, you just don't understand like I do. The endings are the greatest art ever.





/incaseyoudidnotknowthiswastotalsarcasm

[poundoffleshaa]

Master Che wrote...

YouHaveAProblem wrote...

 The Mass Relays, biotic powers, asari melding and FTL travel/communication all have plausible scientific explanations, if you only bother checking the codex.

The ending "solution", however, is simply the most poorly constructed Deus Ex ever..

Synthesis has plausible scientific explanations (nanoscience and genetic modifications).

Ah a laser beam that shoots nanites that can transform everything instanly into cyborgs, we have dismissed that claim.

[ztonkin]

I think his body acts like a Conduit or something. Like, his body is partially synthetic, due to the Lazarus Project. We don't even know the extent of the cybernetic implants, but they seem large. So he's probably just as much a construct as he is a man at this point.

So his body acts as a blueprint of sorts for the fusion of man and machine. That's what I'm going with.

[NM_Che56]

poundoffleshaa wrote...

Master Che wrote...

YouHaveAProblem wrote...

 The Mass Relays, biotic powers, asari melding and FTL travel/communication all have plausible scientific explanations, if you only bother checking the codex.

The ending "solution", however, is simply the most poorly constructed Deus Ex ever..

Synthesis has plausible scientific explanations (nanoscience and genetic modifications).

Ah a laser beam that shoots nanites that can transform everything instanly into cyborgs, we have dismissed that claim.

Who said laser?  No where was it called a laser in the game? Why not a charged plasma beam that could carry charged nanobites that disperse in the magentosphere or atmosphere and spread like a huge global dust storm?

[NM_Che56]

For science fiction fans, some of you sure lack imagination...

[Icinix]

Shepard jumped. Into a beam. Of Energy. A random Ghost Child Shepard just met told him to jump into.

I ran into a talking tree today, it was taking a stroll down the road. Told me I would create a new type of life throughout the universe if I jumped in front of this bus.

[NM_Che56]

Icinix wrote...

Shepard jumped. Into a beam. Of Energy. A random Ghost Child Shepard just met told him to jump into.

I ran into a talking tree today, it was taking a stroll down the road. Told me I would create a new type of life throughout the universe if I jumped in front of this bus.

A dude in a trench coat and sweet looking sunglasses whom you just met tells you to take a pill; red or blue.  you're in a very shady looking place. By taking it, your perception of reality will change forever and you will see the real world...

[Laurcus]

Master Che wrote...

Laurcus wrote...

Just because you don't understand someting doesn't mean it runs on magic.

Well said. 

Don't try to twist my words into an argument for your side, that's rude as hell.

In case you didn't notice, I have been arguing against synthesis as technology, as it breaks the previously established laws of physics without an explanation. It cannot even technically be called a paradigm shift, as no new rule is established.

[Mojenator12345]

I didn't bat an eye at FTL travel.  That's just a necessity for a space-based game -- everybody does it.  Biotics were sketchy, but they integrated it into the ME galaxy in a way that made sense and, most importantly, they improved gameplay significantly.  Not a problem.  The Lazarus project was problematic.  I can buy that they could reconstruct Shepard's body.  But his mind and memories?  No way.  And it provided no benefit to gameplay and little benefit to the plot arc of the series.  Lazarus was a mistake, but ultimately it didn't matter that much.  I shrugged, rolled my eyes and played on.  And there were plenty of other things in the series that didn't make a lot of sense (e.g., the reaper creation process), but they were generally small and pushed gently against my suspension of disbelief without damaging it.

The end sequence was another story.  My suspension of disbelief was already on life support after the levitating platform and the appearance of the godkid.  Synthesis obliterated it.  It was orders of magnitude more absurd and stupid than the Lazarus Project.  How does this thing work?  A beam of light integrated circuits into all sentient beings?  From a biological standpoint, the integration would probably have to be different for every species (and to some extent for every individual within a species).  How does the beam of light know how to do that?  It’s an intelligent light?  How does that work?  And it’s implanting physical matter into all of these beings.  Where did that matter come from?  How did it get transported in a beam of light?  How does that work?  And an extremely intricate surgery is performed on every sentient creature simultaneously and instantaneously.  By a beam of light!  How the **** does that work?  And that’s just for the organics!  The effect of the beam of light on synthetics is equally bewildering. 

But wait, let’s say, notwithstanding all of this other absurd bull****, this thing actually works, what does it actually do?  Does everyone still retain their identity and individuality?  Is Joker still Joker?  Is EDI still EDI?  Who the **** knows?  Do species still retain some differentiation?  Is a krogan different from a human or salarian?  Are geth still on some level different from organics?  Who the **** knows?  Do organics still reproduce organically?  Are they now all one race from a reproductive standpoint?  And what about the synthetics?  Can the geth make babies with quarians?  Are we going to start producing humans in a factory?  Who the **** knows?  If everyone has been homogenized (or lobotomized) and lost their essential identity, has Shepard just committed interstellar genocide of every sentient species?  And if they haven’t, why does godkid think that this solution will result in sunshine, peace, and happiness?  Who the **** knows? 

I literally stumbled into this ending by accident the first time I finished ME3 and just thought "Are you ****ing with me?  You’re ****ing with me.  You MUST be ****ing with me."  How on earth could this franchise come to this?  To compare the synthesis ending with other science fiction elements of the story (even the Lazarus Project) is ridiculous.  Synthesis achieves previously undiscovered levels of EPIC FAIL.

Modifié par Mojenator12345, 10 avril 2012 - 02:25 .

[Nyctyris]

Here's my problem with synthesis:

How does it distinguish between "spacefaring" sentient organics and not? Or do all creatures great and small, puppy or Yahg, get synthesised?

I mean having the power to rewrite organics is one thing, but unless it has a really complicated...something, which is individually assessing the "viability" of upgrading races... what? 

But far from the catalyst to answer such trivial questions. These things are not needed to know in Shepard's decision making process.

Modifié par Nyctyris, 10 avril 2012 - 03:02 .

[whiteraider]

Space Magic

[Railarian]

Synthesis is nothing else than the "new age" ending. Don't try to think it through with technology and codex entries : Bioware didn't.
That's where the "artistic vision" comes from. Their ending isn't supposed to make sense, it is supposed to be beautiful. Ah! Organic and Synthetic used to fight but now, they are ONE! 

We didn't want Yin-Yang philosophy in Mass Effect! It's science-fiction. Bring the science back! Like you did for the last 2.999 games of the series!!!

[eddieoctane]

Synthesis is impossible. Heisenberg uncertainty principle.

That is all.

[goose2989]

Space magic. No, you don't deserve a real answer for the ending of a 5 year long trilogy! How dare you, expecting anything but speculation!