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How does Shepard jumping into a light turn the galaxy's life into cyborgs?


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#201
TheArcader

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YukiFA wrote...

sp0ck 06 wrote...
I mean, how the hell did the Death Star blow up planets? A single directed energy beam only a few meters in diameter destroys an Earth-sized planet in seconds while only needing a few seconds to charge up? What the heck was powering that thing? How is that even possible? Wouldn't it take at least a few minutes to drill down to the core of the planet? Does it work on all planets? What about gas planets? How many shots can it take? How did the friggin planet exploding cause zero damage to the Death Star? When its blowing up ships in Jedi why isn't the beam blowing through? If it can blow up a planet shouldn't it be tearing through multiple ships in one shot? Why not build a planet side version of this weapon? How does the Death Star even move?

^^^^space magic or deus ex, thats the standard answer around here^^^

Actually, no. The methods by which the Death Stars operate are explained. But none of them conflict with already established lore and none of which will leave the reader/watcher with a feeling of "WTF did I just read/watch?" Because A New Hope didn't cut to credits with the Death Star blowing up Alderann and an immediate cut to the medal ceremony on Yavin IV with no explanation as to what happened.


I must have missed the part of the movie that went into great detail on the inner workings of the Death Star and how their main cannon worked...

How does the Death Star move around? I don't see any thruster nozzles like on the Star Destroyers or other ships? 
Can the Death Star enter hyperspace? Hmm... did they explain that in the movie? 

Watching the movie as a kid, did you ask how it was able to do all this stuff? 

Books were written after the fact - just like Star Trek - to put the futuristic technology into perspective for the doubting thomas' of the world who just couldn't emerse themselves in the story and enjoy it for the storytelling.

#202
sp0ck 06

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Laurcus wrote...

CaliGuy033 wrote...

How does running an electrical current through an element increase or decrease the mass of an object?


Why is heat hot? Because it just is. That is a property of that element which is unique to that setting.


ITS SPACE MAGIC GUYZ

#203
Laurcus

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Poison_Berrie wrote...

Master Che wrote...

Like Superman? LOL!

Superman isn't science fiction and doesn't have the standard of having reasonably consistent psuedo-science. It's in premise of Superman. If something needs to happen for the plot, it happens.

How do you know the amount of matter needed? This is science fiction! Who says that one nanobot can't rewrite the DNA of a million people and they just hope around like a bad case of lice?  Why wouldn't THAT be possible?
What if the little beams going from relay to relay just create more of these nanobots thus reducing the needs for a single cloud to carry all of the nanobots?

A beam can not create nanobots out of thin air and a nanobot would by virtue of it's size be limited in power supply. And only a few nanobots would be worthless considering the size of the galaxy and the statistical probability of that small number effecting change in the entire galaxy.

It's science fiction, not an excuse for doing whatever the hell you want. That would be SCIENCE! fiction or science fantasy.


DC physics are actually reasonably consistent and has all sorts of interesting explanations for strange things.

#204
TheArcader

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Riion wrote...

Laurcus wrote...

Zardoc wrote...

HiddenKING wrote...

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

- Arthur C. Clarke



Magic is magic.


Agreed. I don't know who this Arthur C. Clarke guy is, but he sounds like a moron. By nature, technology is something that must work within the laws of physics. Magic is under no such restriction. Therefore, no matter how advanced technology gets, magic can still do things that it cannot.

Though the limits of technology are not always portrayed correctly. Such as any movie with a backwards time machine. In Mass Effect specifically, you need to take into account the Mass Effect. Biotics, FTL travel, and many other things, are scientifically possibly in the setting because of that difference in the laws of physics.


I'm sorry, did you just call Arthur C. Clarke a moron!? :mellow::huh::blink:


Yeah, I wasn't sure if that was sarcasm or not...  :huh: I hope it was sarcasm...

#205
Laurcus

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TheArcader wrote...

Riion wrote...

Laurcus wrote...

Zardoc wrote...

HiddenKING wrote...

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

- Arthur C. Clarke



Magic is magic.


Agreed. I don't know who this Arthur C. Clarke guy is, but he sounds like a moron. By nature, technology is something that must work within the laws of physics. Magic is under no such restriction. Therefore, no matter how advanced technology gets, magic can still do things that it cannot.

Though the limits of technology are not always portrayed correctly. Such as any movie with a backwards time machine. In Mass Effect specifically, you need to take into account the Mass Effect. Biotics, FTL travel, and many other things, are scientifically possibly in the setting because of that difference in the laws of physics.


I'm sorry, did you just call Arthur C. Clarke a moron!? :mellow::huh::blink:


Yeah, I wasn't sure if that was sarcasm or not...  :huh: I hope it was sarcasm...



No, it was not sarcasm. I don't know who Arthur C. Clarke is, so my only basis for his intelligence is that quote. And that quote is retarded because it is 100% false.

Edit: Cool, he was a science fiction author.

Modifié par Laurcus, 09 avril 2012 - 09:08 .


#206
Oakenshield1

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#207
Oakenshield1

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Image IPB

#208
sp0ck 06

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Laurcus wrote...

TheArcader wrote...

Riion wrote...

Laurcus wrote...

Zardoc wrote...

HiddenKING wrote...

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

- Arthur C. Clarke



Magic is magic.


Agreed. I don't know who this Arthur C. Clarke guy is, but he sounds like a moron. By nature, technology is something that must work within the laws of physics. Magic is under no such restriction. Therefore, no matter how advanced technology gets, magic can still do things that it cannot.

Though the limits of technology are not always portrayed correctly. Such as any movie with a backwards time machine. In Mass Effect specifically, you need to take into account the Mass Effect. Biotics, FTL travel, and many other things, are scientifically possibly in the setting because of that difference in the laws of physics.


I'm sorry, did you just call Arthur C. Clarke a moron!? :mellow::huh::blink:


Yeah, I wasn't sure if that was sarcasm or not...  :huh: I hope it was sarcasm...



No, it was not sarcasm. I don't know who Arthur C. Clarke is, so my only basis for his intelligence is that quote. And that quote is retarded because it is 100% false.

Edit: Cool, he was a science fiction author.


Yeah, not just "a science fiction writer."  THE science fiction writer.  The dude was even brought in as an expert consultant for the Strategic Missile Defense Initiative and Apollo space program.  His buddy Isaac Asimov...maybe you've heard of him?  called Clarke the greatest science fiction writer of all time.

So yeah, I think Arthur Clarke is a bit more qualified than you or me to make grandiose statements about technology and the philosophy behind it.

#209
mumwaldee369

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I wonder how A.C. Clarke felt about the psychedelic film adaptation. He explained most things in the novel.

#210
CaliGuy033

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Laurcus wrote...

CaliGuy033 wrote...

How does running an electrical current through an element increase or decrease the mass of an object?


Why is heat hot? Because it just is. That is a property of that element which is unique to that setting.


Thank you.  So now I will move on to the thread question: How does Shepard jumping into the Crucible's beam turn the galaxy's life into organic-synthetic hybrids?  

Because it just does.   

#211
Poison_Berrie

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CaliGuy033 wrote...

Thank you.  So now I will move on to the thread question: How does Shepard jumping into the Crucible's beam turn the galaxy's life into organic-synthetic hybrids?  

Because it just does.   

Actually one is the basic premise for all the impossible tech of the Mass Effect universe and it's even in the name of the game.

If we accept everything because it just does, why not have Shepard transform into a giant super-spaceship and kill the Reapers himself.

There is a difference between;  "this exotic matter does this to establish the premise to the plot" vs. "at the end you jump into a beam and turn everything in the galaxy into organic-synthetic hybrids because". It's the intention and the place of introduction.

#212
ZajoE38

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CDHarrisUSF wrote...

ZajoE38 wrote...

Another explanation - combining Shepards DNA with Catalyst's program algorithms makes default pattern which is sent via mass relays to affect every being in galaxy to reprogram it's elementary structure.

That's not even close to an explanation.

If you are looking for real world explanation, mathematical, biological and physical proof - I have to disappoint you. ME is sci-fi, not real-world simulator, nothing of it is valid in real world. It's a story of imagination. Mass effect as a whole is not valid in real world. So you can live with mass effect field, and you can't live with other things? Odd.

#213
Arondell

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Laurcus wrote...


Agreed. I don't know who this Arthur C. Clarke guy is, but he sounds like a moron. By nature, technology is something that must work within the laws of physics. Magic is under no such restriction. Therefore, no matter how advanced technology gets, magic can still do things that it cannot.

Though the limits of technology are not always portrayed correctly. Such as any movie with a backwards time machine. In Mass Effect specifically, you need to take into account the Mass Effect. Biotics, FTL travel, and many other things, are scientifically possibly in the setting because of that difference in the laws of physics.


I think your missing the point.  If we were to run into a civilization that had technology a thousand years more advanced then ours they would likely have access to equipment in whatever form that could do stuff that might seem flatly impossible to us.   You might conceptually be able to understand that its simply more advanced technology but for practical purposes it might as well be magic.  Hence it is indistinguishable.

Modifié par Arondell, 09 avril 2012 - 09:34 .


#214
cotheer

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Since no one answered it: Space magic.
There you go.

Anyhoe, i find it that Mass Effect (as a natural occurrence) is not just space magic, but has, to a degree, foundations in the real world, to be more exact, Higgs Field. Biotics, on the other hand are just stretching it too far.

#215
ZajoE38

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No one realizes that entire Mass Effect is one big space magic? Why? Because it's a sci-fi.

#216
SpiderFan1217

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HiddenKING wrote...

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

- Arthur C. Clarke


I saw that episode of Next Generation. Good stuff.

#217
Riion

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Poison_Berrie wrote...

CaliGuy033 wrote...

Thank you.  So now I will move on to the thread question: How does Shepard jumping into the Crucible's beam turn the galaxy's life into organic-synthetic hybrids?  

Because it just does.   

Actually one is the basic premise for all the impossible tech of the Mass Effect universe and it's even in the name of the game.

If we accept everything because it just does, why not have Shepard transform into a giant super-spaceship and kill the Reapers himself.

There is a difference between;  "this exotic matter does this to establish the premise to the plot" vs. "at the end you jump into a beam and turn everything in the galaxy into organic-synthetic hybrids because". It's the intention and the place of introduction.


QFT

#218
mumwaldee369

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CaliGuy033 wrote...

Laurcus wrote...

CaliGuy033 wrote...

How does running an electrical current through an element increase or decrease the mass of an object?


Why is heat hot? Because it just is. That is a property of that element which is unique to that setting.


Thank you.  So now I will move on to the thread question: How does Shepard jumping into the Crucible's beam turn the galaxy's life into organic-synthetic hybrids?  

Because it just does.   


Heat is not hot just because it is.  The laws of thermodynamics can be explained in detail.

#219
Poison_Berrie

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ZajoE38 wrote...

No one realizes that entire Mass Effect is one big space magic? Why? Because it's a sci-fi.

I spoke of this before. The mass effect is the basic premise that creates this universe. It powers all impossible technologies and physics. 
There is a difference between defining the boundries and needs of your universe and just throwing stuff out there to fill at the last moment for "Lot's of speculation from everyone!".

If people can't actually see that up untill that point the games had been reasonably consistent in what it presented to be possible and that it carried more thought in it's technology and lore than simple a need for a plot-device, I really don't know anymore. 
The game has set it's own precedent. If none of it matter, it should have never even bothered. It should have just Star-Wars-ed it. 

#220
incinerator950

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Guys, Shepard creates the Bydo!

/cricket

#221
CDHarrisUSF

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ZajoE38 wrote...

If you are looking for real world explanation, mathematical, biological and physical proof - I have to disappoint you. ME is sci-fi, not real-world simulator, nothing of it is valid in real world. It's a story of imagination. Mass effect as a whole is not valid in real world. So you can live with mass effect field, and you can't live with other things? Odd.

It's not up to me to engage my suspension of disbelief. It's the writer's job to write something believable enough to fly under my bulls#!t radar (at least to a cursory inspection). The mass effect is established early on, explained in enough detail over three games and multiple novels, and extrapolated in so many logical directions that I got over it pretty quickly. The difference is that this bulls#!t is not only introduced entirely in the span of one minute as a throw-away line at the very end of the game but is so patently ridiculous that I'm not sure even an hour of trying to justify it would be enough. I've written quite a long post about this subject in past discussions, but it's not worth digging up or rehashing yet again.

Of course, I grew up reading every Isaac Asimov story ever written (and many others, but he's still my favorite). So, perhaps I expect a bit more thought to be put into my sci-fi than most. He was a professor of biochemisty and even wrote a deadpan scientific paper called "The Endochronic Properties of Resublimated Thiotimoline" for fun. It's written as if someone is studying a fake chemical compound which, when mixed with water, actually begins to dissolve before it contacts the water and explores the ramifications that might have. There's also a follow-up paper called "The Micropsychiatric Applications of Thiotimoline" and an address to a fictional scientific society on the findings of his fictional research titled "Thiotimoline and the Space Age."

Modifié par CDHarrisUSF, 09 avril 2012 - 11:33 .


#222
Oldbones2

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Synthesis is my least favorite ending (and Bioware's favorite, go figure)

And I made a thread detailing why.

http://social.biowar.../index/11152094

#223
omphaloskepsis

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Laurcus wrote...
No, it was not sarcasm. I don't know who Arthur C. Clarke is, so my only basis for his intelligence is that quote. And that quote is retarded because it is 100% false.

Edit: Cool, he was a science fiction author.

Sorry, I just have to jump in here.  Clarke is one of the important sci fi writers of all time (in terms of influence), but he was a mathematician first (and a radar expert).

This is particularly interesting because he's the one who first did the math and proposed telecommunication satellites.  The concept of geosynchronous orbit predated him, but he's the one who put the ideas together for geostationary orbit, and he did that with expertise in science, not as science fiction.  22,236 miles, man, it's not just a good idea.  ;)  Look up Clarke Orbit and the Clarke Belt.

Anyway, the point of his quote about advanced science appearing as magic is simple:  a caveman can't distinguish a nuclear exposion (or even dynamite) or a jet fighter from magic.  The point is that if we (or any sentient) run across technology that's way ahead of what we're familiar with, it will appear to be magic to us.  A caveman can't just reverse engineer an assault rifle.  He would need a few thousand years worth of knowledge to even have the basic intellectual framework to understand the fundamental principles.  The same applies to us or any civilization that runs into technology that's hundreds or thousands of years ahead.

Modifié par drewelow, 09 avril 2012 - 10:48 .


#224
TheArcader

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Isn't it plausible to say that the race that created the mass relays might have had other technology that they didn't leave behind for the other races to use? Everything left behind was to force other races to develop along the path they desired.

I still believe the crucible was just a giant USB key with a virus on it to give root access to whomever was able to deliver it to the citadel.

Depending on how well the Crucible was constructed (based on resource level) opened up the synthesis dialog during the end game. I personally think synthesis should have only been an option to someone who brokered peace between the Quarians and the Geth along with the high enough resource level requirement.

If you take the three options at face value and do not read any nefarious intent, the starchild life form (synthetic right?) believes that the merger of organic and synthetic life is the ultimate apex of evolution in the galaxy. One that removes the chaos created between the organics and their maligned synthetic offspring due to their new shared heritage.

Some background...

My Shepard gave the Geth the benefit of the doubt when Legion became part of his crew. Legion explained to Shepard that the (good) Geth wanted to find their destiny and try to co-exist with everyone else. The Quarians were the ones who kept hunting them down, instigating war with the Geth because they refused to acknowledge their creations had evolved. The visit to the Geth fighter base and the VR trip showing the Geth collective memory filled in how the Quarians leadership became scared and attempted to exterminate the Geth. My paragon Shepard saw the injustice of what the Quarians did to the Geth and decided going forward that in order to save the galaxy from the Reapers, the Quarians and the Geth needed to make peace.

So, that is my reason why I chose synthesis versus control or destruction.

Now, if I tried to make an explaination work, I'd say that the cruicible provided new programming to the citadel and the starchild. The cruicble itself was an amplifier and antenna. Lets say that the shockwave sent is some form of radiation that can also be used for communication, genetic reprogramming or just plain EMP-like capability. (Maybe different forms of radiation for each - radio waves are technically radiation, right?)

In control, Shepard becomes the starchild and is now the keeper of galactic order. The reaper abort code is sent through the mass relay network, the citadel closes up shop and probably heads off to dark space with the reapers. End of story.

In the destroy or synthesis scenario, the release of the signal is so great and consumes all of the power in the citadel that it causes it explode. The signal is sent to the mass relay. In that signal is programming to the mass relay to reconfigure itself to use its large eezo core to boost the signal and broadcast it to the next link in the relay network as well is send out the shockwave like the citadel. This results in the destruction of the relay in destroy or synthesis.

The EMP we can try to explain away, but why it only affects sentient life is something to ponder.

Synthesis requires that leap of faith to say that Shepard's hybrid construction becomes a basic template for the energy pattern sent by the citadel. How it does its feat of genetic engineering is proprietary :lol: but somehow everything organic is just a little different. I can't explain what it does to EDI or the Reapers, maybe nothing, do they get some organic attributes or do they gain something organic in their intelligence? Whatever it is, it causes the Reapers to disengage and leave Earth. Maybe with the evolution, their work is done. 

I did not have a problem with the ending. I think synthesis without any evil motives was a belief that it was time for life in the galaxy to get beyond the whole man-versus-machine thing. Hell, even alien-to-alien. All the races now have something in common and maybe that will help them be a little better... (yeah, right!)

My hope is that the add-on for ME3 will touch on some of the motivations that clear up some of the discontinuity, like why the Normandy fled the Sol system (probably when it was reported that the team racing for the conduit was dead - Hackett ordered the Normandy to escape the Sol system as a strategic retreat in order to go to Plan B or something? How many other ships were in transit when the pulse was sent through the relay network?

Also, if Normandy fell out of the relay network along the way and didn't make it to the end point, they ended up in a star system outside of the relay network! That could be problematic since it would take a long time at FTL to get anywhere, assuming they could repair the ship and knew where they were.

All sorts of possibilities and questions, but not every game or book or movie wraps up the loose ends.

Enough ranting for now. :P

Modifié par TheArcader, 09 avril 2012 - 11:32 .


#225
Riion

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TheArcader wrote...

Isn't it plausible to say that the race that created the mass relays might have had other technology that they didn't leave behind for the other races to use? Everything left behind was to force other races to develop along the path they desired.

I still believe the crucible was just a giant USB key with a virus on it to give root access to whomever was able to deliver it to the citadel.

Depending on how well the Crucible was constructed (based on resource level) opened up the synthesis dialog during the end game. I personally think synthesis should have only been an option to someone who brokered peace between the Quarians and the Geth along with the high enough resource level requirement.

If you take the three options at face value and do not read any nefarious intent, the starchild life form (synthetic right?) believes that the merger of organic and synthetic life is the ultimate apex of evolution in the galaxy. One that removes the chaos created between the organics and their maligned synthetic offspring due to their new shared heritage.

Some background...

My Shepard gave the Geth the benefit of the doubt when Legion became part of his crew. Legion explained to Shepard that the (good) Geth wanted to find their destiny and try to co-exist with everyone else. The Quarians were the ones who kept hunting them down, instigating war with the Geth because they refused to acknowledge their creations had evolved. The visit to the Geth fighter base and the VR trip showing the Geth collective memory filled in how the Quarians leadership became scared and attempted to exterminate the Geth. My paragon Shepard saw the injustice of what the Quarians did to the Geth and decided going forward that in order to save the galaxy from the Reapers, the Quarians and the Geth needed to make peace.

So, that is my reason why I chose synthesis versus control or destruction.

Now, if I tried to make an explaination work, I'd say that the cruicible provided new programming to the citadel and the starchild. The cruicble itself was an amplifier and antenna. Lets say that the shockwave sent is some form of radiation that can also be used for communication, genetic reprogramming or just plain EMP-like capability. (Maybe different forms of radiation for each - radio waves are technically radiation, right?)

In control, Shepard becomes the starchild and is now the keeper of galactic order. The reaper abort code is sent through the mass relay network, the citadel closes up shop and probably heads off to dark space with the reapers. End of story.

In the destroy or synthesis scenario, the release of the signal is so great and consumes all of the power in the citadel that it causes it explode. The signal is sent to the mass relay. In that signal is programming to the mass relay to reconfigure itself to use its large eezo core to boost the signal and broadcast it to the next link in the relay network as well is send out the shockwave like the citadel. This results in the destruction of the relay in destroy or synthesis.

The EMP we can try to explain away, but why it only affects sentient life is something to ponder.

Synthesis requires that leap of faith to say that Shepard's hybrid construction becomes a basic template for the energy pattern sent by the citadel. How it does its feat of genetic engineering is proprietary :lol: but somehow everything organic is just a little different. I can't explain what it does to EDI or the Reapers, maybe nothing, do they get some organic attributes or do they gain something organic in their intelligence? Whatever it is, it causes the Reapers to disengage and leave Earth. Maybe with the evolution, their work is done. 

I did not have a problem with the ending. I think synthesis without any evil motives was a belief that it was time for life in the galaxy to get beyond the whole man-versus-machine thing. Hell, even alien-to-alien. All the races now have something in common and maybe that will help them be a little better... (yeah, right!)

My hope is that the add-on for ME3 will touch on some of the motivations that clear up some of the discontinuity, like why the Normandy fled the Sol system (probably when it was reported that the team racing for the conduit was dead - Hackett ordered the Normandy to escape the Sol system as a strategic retreat in order to go to Plan B or something? How many other ships were in transit when the pulse was sent through the relay network?

Also, if Normandy fell out of the relay network along the way and didn't make it to the end point, they ended up in a star system outside of the relay network! That could be problematic since it would take a long time at FTL to get anywhere, assuming they could repair the ship and knew where they were.

All sorts of possibilities and questions, but not every game or book or movie wraps up the loose ends.

Enough ranting for now. :P




I have very little problem with the basic goal of synthesis, but the way in which it is introduced and applied into the story is not appropriate, in my opinion, for the ending of ME3. For all the reasons mentioned on these forums, it just doesn't fit in context (to me, at least).