275 réponses à ce sujet

[the_one_54321]

(this is halfway tongue-in-cheek, so try to take it with equal measures of humor and seriousness)

I know it's a stretch, but maybe for the next installment we can put together a team of capable and reliable and emotionally stable companions? People that can handle their own problems for a change. And more specifically, how about we not recruit a whole party of colossal ****-ups that will alternate between throwing wrenches in your works, and stabbing you in the back as a result of mental instability or a lack of mental fortitude.

I'd like to see some party NPCs that provide you with extra quests and a greater range of story, without them needing you to hold their hand or solve all their problems for them. And, most preferably, I'd like to avoid casual social simulation fun time. If I wanted to play dating sims, I'd go play dating sims. What I would like to see come from party interaction is rousing heroics and romance.

In summary; strong, capable characters, and heroic thematics.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 09 avril 2012 - 04:19 .

[Maria Caliban]

I loved the companions in ME 2 and DA II. Warts and all.

There should be one nice, normal, emotionally stable and mature person in the group (The Jacob). The rest can be major ****-ups.

[nightcobra]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I loved the companions in ME 2 and DA II. Warts and all.

There should be one nice, normal, emotionally stable and mature person in the group (The Jacob). The rest can be major ****-ups.

or maybe an old father with a loving family, a mature and stern kind of mentor figure that doesn't die in the first 2 arcs.
like tenzin

Modifié par nightcobra8928, 09 avril 2012 - 04:19 .

[the_one_54321]

nightcobra8928 wrote...
or maybe an old father with a loving family, a mature and stern kind of mentor figure that doesn't die in the first 2 arcs.
like tenzin

the_one_54321 likes this. +100 approval.

[Maria Caliban]

nightcobra8928 wrote...

or maybe an old father with a loving family, a mature and stern kind of mentor figure that doesn't die in the first 2 arcs.
like tenzin

It's a BioWare game. Mentors and family members exist to be killed off.

[the_one_54321]

We don't yet actually know that Tenzin won't die, anyway. But I still like the suggestion.

For a little bit of context;

Wyne, well, Wyne was just made of win. She's nothing but wisdom and support the whole way through.

Leliana needs me to kill her ex-girlfriend, I know. And as far as ex trouble goes, "please kill her" has got to be about as bad as it gets. But besides that, all she does is kick ass for you, give you info, and tell you stories.

Morrigan kind of fits the in between ground, being halfway between little-miss-issues and I-can-actually-fix-your-problems.

Alistair was likewise a middle ground guy. Can't do much of anything on his own, but can handle more or less whatever you require him to handle.

And then you have the other end of the spectrum with Mr. Stabby-stab murder happy elf.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 09 avril 2012 - 04:41 .

[the_one_54321]

PurebredCorn wrote...
Aveline was a well adjusted, capable, character that I absolutely loved but having every team member be that way would get a little dull for me. If they had replaced Merrill or Isabela with characters less selfish or crazy... I can't even finish the thought it upsets me so much.

In DA:O, I found the only character that I absolutely wanted to kill was Zevran. In DAII, I get the feeling that I would want to kill almost all of them. Blood magic, abominations, bombing public places, selling me out for a boat. These people seem almost the definition of "more trouble then they're worth." ME2 was less so. Those characters mostly seemed capable and effective, but the constant need for me to fix their problems for them started to feel like a bit much by the end. Why didn't any of them have anything mission-critical as a loyalty quest? Why was it always about family problems or past ****-ups?

[Odd Bet]

This is why I really liked how BioWare handled Kaidan in ME3. If he wanted something done, he went and did it (tracking down his students) instead of waiting for you to come by and see if he needed help with anything.

I think it's the first time a romance in a BW game felt like a relationship between equals, rather than the LI orbiting the PC's planet of cool. For me, at least.

That said, I still love the characters with tons of emotional baggage. I'm just more apt to befriend them, rather than romance them.

[bEVEsthda]

I've always disliked perfection. In the old games, where you really chose your party members (there was no party pool which contained them all, at your convenience) a big part of the atmosphere in the game was coming from your party makeup and from making do. I still think that. There are no superb heroes who will join you, follow you, risk their lives, all for no pay. You'll have to make do with those who will, for whatever reason. And this I find appropriate, interesting, immersing, and ...fun.

[nightcobra]

Maria Caliban wrote...

nightcobra8928 wrote...

or maybe an old father with a loving family, a mature and stern kind of mentor figure that doesn't die in the first 2 arcs.
like tenzin

It's a BioWare game. Mentors and family members exist to be killed off.

time to break that particular mold then.

in da2 they said your family wouldn't be outright murdered, yet they still couldn't resist to kill one at the beginning, another in the second arc, and the last remaining member could also die if you really just wanted to put him out of his/her misery.

*unavoidable family/mentor plot death happens again*

player: why?!!

bioware (with dripping murder knife): but, but....the drama, we needz it.

Modifié par nightcobra8928, 09 avril 2012 - 05:07 .

[upsettingshorts]

PurebredCorn wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

I loved the companions in ME 2 and DA II. Warts and all.

There should be one nice, normal, emotionally stable and mature person in the group (The Jacob). The rest can be major ****-ups.

I second this.

Aveline was a well adjusted, capable, character that I absolutely loved but having every team member be that way would get a little dull for me. If they had replaced Merrill or Isabela with characters less selfish or crazy... I can't even finish the thought it upsets me so much.

[Arthur Cousland]

Bioware do like killing off family and mentors. It's become a tradition. When they first revealed Bethany, I immediately thought, "red-shirt".

How was Aveline a screw up? Her being nervous asking Donnic out showed a more human side to the tough-as-nails cop lady.

Varric was also a mostly "normal" companion, and his personal drama was due to Bartrand, not really anything that he did.

Hawke: "Can't anyone fix their own problems around here?"
Isabela: "It must be something in the water."

[PinkShoes]

But if they could solve their own problems then what would we need compaion quests for?

[the_one_54321]

PinkShoes wrote...
But if they could solve their own problems then what would we need compaion quests for?

There's a difference between "I have this problem, and I can't handle it without you," and "hey, check out what's going on over here." 

And there's a pretty distinct difference between "I'm not as strong as you," and "all of us stabbed you in the back when things got hard." After the fade incident, I would have told every one of them to get lost.

[nightcobra]

PinkShoes wrote...

But if they could solve their own problems then what would we need compaion quests for?

bonding with them maybe?

hanging out, tavern brawls, arena tag team fights, plan a heist, have fun with them, etc:wizard:

[Giltspur]

I liked DA2's cast.  

Aveline and Varric: Sane, Reliable, Thoughtful (Aveline on religion or Varric on family)
Fenris and Anders: Obsessive
Isabela: Overtly Sexual, Inwardly Insecure, Contextually Trustworthy, Often Rational
Merrill: Language Character like Thane and Mordin.  Recklessly Intelligent--can be seen smart by some and dumb by others.

Besides, fiction needs screwed-up characters.  It's fine to have a Garrus or a Varric character that is mostly likable in the ensemble cast.  But I think it would be boring if there were no messes to fix.

If I have a criticism, it's that the "flawed" characters of Fenris and Anders were too one-dimensional.  I mean, they weren't, but they can seem that way.  Anders is both a healer and an extremist, for example.  And Fenris can be insightful in his world weariness--though it's easily missed if you don't travel with him much.  

Modifié par Giltspur, 09 avril 2012 - 05:42 .

[upsettingshorts]

the_one_54321 wrote...

After the fade incident, I would have told every one of them to get lost.

If it was so easy to resist the lures of demons, what would be the point?

It would mean everyone who fell under a demon's control was a weak minded simpleton with no willpower and therefore undeserving of sympathy.  It would destroy the whole dynamic of demonic corruption in one fell swoop.

By showing that even your loyal companions can be corrupted, it demonstrates the power of demons in the universe.

Broadly speaking, though:  I really do not understand this desire to have companions without problems, who follow the Big Protagonist without question, or without his/her having earned it.  Relationships are a two way street, and sometimes they have problems and I don't mind helping them with theirs because they help me with mine.  It was more interesting to find out about them through their struggles than interrogating them at camp.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 09 avril 2012 - 05:44 .

[the_one_54321]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
By showing that even your loyal companions can be corrupted, it demonstrates the power of demons in the universe.

That's a fair point, but these aren't supposed to be your average street walkers. I can't have people with me that I can't trust when the going gets tough.

Upsettingshorts wrote...
Broadly speaking, though:  I really do not understand this desire to have companions without problems, who follow the Big Protagonist without question, or without his/her having earned it.

I don't know that this really applies. Why can't you have both? Strength and capability, and access to a story development that generates loyalty.

[Xewaka]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

PurebredCorn wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...
I loved the companions in ME 2 and DA II. Warts and all.
There should be one nice, normal, emotionally stable and mature person in the group (The Jacob). The rest can be major ****-ups.

I second this.
Aveline was a well adjusted, capable, character that I absolutely loved but having every team member be that way would get a little dull for me. If they had replaced Merrill or Isabela with characters less selfish or crazy... I can't even finish the thought it upsets me so much.

I thought Varric was the well-adjusted one. Oh well.

[upsettingshorts]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...
By showing that even your loyal companions can be corrupted, it demonstrates the power of demons in the universe.

That's a fair point, but these aren't supposed to be your average street walkers. I can't have people with me that I can't trust when the going gets tough.

I think the idea is that given the right circumstances no one is loyal when it comes to demons and their corrupting influence.

Which has serious consequences when you think about the mainplot about mages and their being demonfodder...

the_one_54321 wrote...

I don't know that this really applies. Why can't you have both? Strength and capability, and access to a story development that generates loyalty.

Give me an example how something like having both would play out?

Xewaka wrote...

I thought Varric was the well-adjusted one. Oh well.

Varric and Aveline were.  So too is your sibling, well, relatively speaking.

The romance options weren't, basically. 

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 09 avril 2012 - 05:49 .

[Arthur Cousland]

Fenris and Anders did feel a bit one-dimensional. Almost every comment from them was about mages or templars, and they didn't have much else to talk about.  It was if anytime I would see them approach, I could predict the upcoming conversation in advance.

Aveline and Varric were companions who I thought that I could have an actual conversation with, and while overly-sexual, I liked Isabela's adventure-seeker side.

Modifié par Arthur Cousland, 09 avril 2012 - 05:55 .

[Xewaka]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Xewaka wrote...
I thought Varric was the well-adjusted one. Oh well.

Varric and Aveline were.  So too is your sibling, well, relatively speaking.
The romance options weren't, basically.

Hawke should've listened to poppa Malcom when he told him: "Don't stick it in the crazy."

Modifié par Xewaka, 09 avril 2012 - 05:52 .

[CuriousArtemis]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I loved the companions in ME 2 and DA II. Warts and all.

There should be one nice, normal, emotionally stable and mature person in the group (The Jacob). The rest can be major ****-ups.

Totally agree; well, I've never played ME2 xD But loved everyone in DA2.

The nice, normal, emotionally stable and mature person: Aveline qualifies, so does Varric; I propose that Isabela also fits.  She is nice, she is emotionally stable, she is mature.  She is not necessarily "normal" because otherwise she wouldn't have to contend with prejudice (such as Aveline calling her a w-h-o-r-e, or heck players calling her the same.)  But otherwise, she's her own woman!

Merrill is also pretty normal; she has a passion: her people's history.  But she's not emotionally unstable.

Only Fenris and Anders don't qualify.  But I still love them both <3