275 réponses à ce sujet

[nightcobra]

Upsettingshorts wrote...


Give me an example how something like having both would play out?

maybe due to the nostalgia factor but i've greatly enjoyed the character of selan in lufia2: rise of the sinistrals.

http://lufia.wikia.com/wiki/Selan 

[the_one_54321]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
I think the idea is that given the right circumstances no one is loyal when it comes to demons and their corrupting influence.

Which has serious consequences when you think about the mainplot about mages and their being demonfodder...

Sets a very dangerous precedent.

Upsettingshorts wrote...
Give me an example how something like having both would play out?

Oghren, for example, draws you into a plot, sets you in motion on a very long quest, but does not require you to settle his own issues for him. Though, at the end, you are the one that makes all those choices, he has his own opinion on the matter through the whole thing.

[upsettingshorts]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...
I think the idea is that given the right circumstances no one is loyal when it comes to demons and their corrupting influence.

Which has serious consequences when you think about the mainplot about mages and their being demonfodder...

Sets a very dangerous precedent.

Seems like it's supposed to?

the_one_54321 wrote... 

Oghren, for example, draws you into a plot, sets you in motion on a very long quest, but does not require you to settle his own issues for him. Though, at the end, you are the one that makes all those choices, he has his own opinion on the matter through the whole thing.

Eh.  I wouldn't like Oghren-during-the-Deep-Roads to become the standard through which I learn about characters' problems.  

Give me the DA2 approach any day over that.

[Land55]

One of the point of Bioware games is to make your companions into heroes or at least something greater.....they start off as thieves, pirates, drunks, whiny cleric/fighters, but then following you into the depths of hell or starting a war they become heroes or at least something closer to a caring person.....

Modifié par Land55, 09 avril 2012 - 06:00 .

[the_one_54321]

motomotogirl wrote...
I propose that Isabela also fits.  She is nice, she is emotionally stable, she is mature.  She is not necessarily "normal" because otherwise she wouldn't have to contend with prejudice (such as Aveline calling her a w-h-o-r-e, or heck players calling her the same.)  But otherwise, she's her own woman!

She sells you for a boat.

motomotogirl wrote...
Merrill is also pretty normal; she has a passion: her people's history.  But she's not emotionally unstable.

What did Hawke say? You knew what to be careful for but then you did it anyway? So, as long as you're worried about it, it's ok?

Upsettingshorts wrote...
Eh.  I wouldn't like Oghren-during-the-Deep-Roads to become the standard through which I learn about characters' problems.  

Give me the DA2 approach any day over that.

Well, Oghren is an amusing but otherwise not so gripping character in general. You could have someone that is not an expanded source of toilet jokes provide the same kind of story exploration.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 09 avril 2012 - 06:01 .

[CuriousArtemis]

Giltspur wrote...

If I have a criticism, it's that the "flawed" characters of Fenris and Anders were too one-dimensional.  I mean, they weren't, but they can seem that way.  Anders is both a healer and an extremist, for example.  And Fenris can be insightful in his world weariness--though it's easily missed if you don't travel with him much.  

I like how you put that  I agree.  Fenris is incredibly mature, and he does have a heart, but you hav to really pay attention to notice this.  And Anders is a 100% good-souled guy; he just ... happens to be corrupted by a demon lol

[Land55]

the_one_54321 wrote...

motomotogirl wrote...
I propose that Isabela also fits.  She is nice, she is emotionally stable, she is mature.  She is not necessarily "normal" because otherwise she wouldn't have to contend with prejudice (such as Aveline calling her a w-h-o-r-e, or heck players calling her the same.)  But otherwise, she's her own woman!

She sells you for a boat.

motomotogirl wrote...
Merrill is also pretty normal; she has a passion: her people's history.  But she's not emotionally unstable.

What did Hawke say? You knew what to be careful for but then you did it anyway? So, as long as you're worried about it, it's ok?

Magic does some crazy stuff to people......oh btw......it was demon magic.... Whats about Varric.....His only problem is his brother, and that gets taken care of.

[Land55]

Land55 wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

motomotogirl wrote...
I propose that Isabela also fits.  She is nice, she is emotionally stable, she is mature.  She is not necessarily "normal" because otherwise she wouldn't have to contend with prejudice (such as Aveline calling her a w-h-o-r-e, or heck players calling her the same.)  But otherwise, she's her own woman!

She sells you for a boat.

motomotogirl wrote...
Merrill is also pretty normal; she has a passion: her people's history.  But she's not emotionally unstable.

What did Hawke say? You knew what to be careful for but then you did it anyway? So, as long as you're worried about it, it's ok?

Magic does some crazy stuff to people......oh btw......it was demon magic.... What about Varric.....His only problem is his brother, and that gets taken care of.

[the_one_54321]

Land55 wrote...
Magic does some crazy stuff to people......oh btw......it was demon magic.... Whats about Varric.....His only problem is his brother, and that gets taken care of.

As I mentioned to Upsettingshorts, I need these people to be reliable even in difficult situations.

[CuriousArtemis]

[quote]the_one_54321 wrote...
She sells you for a boat.
[/quote] 

All your companions will betray you, hon, not just Isabela.  The writers were likely trying to show the corrupting powers of a demon (Marethari makes a remark afterward that many people are not strong enough to resistance or something along those lines, blah blah blah).  Isabela's scene was just kind fo stupid and poorly written.  Fenris' was also stupid.  I think the demon promised to make him a magister or something.  Geez, really?

[quote] 
Merrill is also pretty normal; she has a passion: her people's history.  But she's not emotionally unstable.[/quote]
What did Hawke say? You knew what to be careful for but then you did it anyway? So, as long as you're worried about it, it's ok?
[/quote]

Not sure what you mean here?

But I won't defend them furhter.  If you don't see this about them, then you just don't see it.

[Land55]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Land55 wrote...
Magic does some crazy stuff to people......oh btw......it was demon magic.... Whats about Varric.....His only problem is his brother, and that gets taken care of.

As I mentioned to Upsettingshorts, I need these people to be reliable even in difficult situations.

Thats impossible though. So far there have only been two people who can completely resist a demons magic as far as I know. The Warden and Hawke.

[the_one_54321]

motomotogirl wrote...
All your companions will betray you, hon, not just Isabela.  The writers were likely trying to show the corrupting powers of a demon (Marethari makes a remark afterward that many people are not strong enough to resistance or something along those lines, blah blah blah).

Yes, I know. Upsettingshorts already talked about this.

But these people are the ones I'm relying on. They're supposed to be better than "most people." If they can't handle a very difficult, taxing situation, then why do I have them on my team? 

Land55 wrote...
Thats impossible though. So far there have only been two people who can completely resist a demons magic as far as I know. The Warden and Hawke.

Sounds like  good argument for just killing all mages.

However, I'm pretty sure The Harrowing directly pits all Circle mages against a demon.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 09 avril 2012 - 06:06 .

[upsettingshorts]

Land55 wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

Land55 wrote...
Magic does some crazy stuff to people......oh btw......it was demon magic.... Whats about Varric.....His only problem is his brother, and that gets taken care of.

As I mentioned to Upsettingshorts, I need these people to be reliable even in difficult situations.

Thats impossible though. So far there have only been two people who can completely resist a demons magic as far as I know. The Warden and Hawke.

Yup.

the_one_54321 wrote...

Yes, I know. Upsettingshorts already talked about this. 

But these people are the ones I'm relying on. They're supposed to be better than "most people." If they can't handle a very difficult, taxing situation, then why do I have them on my team? 

Welcome to dark fantasy.

You don't get to have standards that high for companions in a universe where demons have impressive powers of corruption, period.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 09 avril 2012 - 06:07 .

[Land55]

the_one_54321 wrote...

motomotogirl wrote...
All your companions will betray you, hon, not just Isabela.  The writers were likely trying to show the corrupting powers of a demon (Marethari makes a remark afterward that many people are not strong enough to resistance or something along those lines, blah blah blah).

Yes, I know. Upsettingshorts already talked about this.

But these people are the ones I'm relying on. They're supposed to be better than "most people." If they can't handle a very difficult, taxing situation, then why do I have them on my team? 

Land55 wrote...
Thats impossible though. So far there have only been two people who can completely resist a demons magic as far as I know. The Warden and Hawke.

Sounds like  good argument for just killing all mages.

However, I'm pretty sure The Harrowing directly pits all Circle mages against a demon.

The Hoarrowing is different......fighting a real demon out in the open fade or even in the human world is much much much different. Not to mention there is different levels of demon some more powerful then others. And yes.....I saved the mages not killed them, in both games. And the thing is the companions are people! They have desires that differ sometimes from the PC. Sounds like you want some Geth under your command with no problems or faults.

[the_one_54321]

Land55 wrote...
The Hoarrowing is different......fighting a real demon out in the open fade or even in the human world is much much much different.

How do you figure this? A Pride demon is captured and pitted against the Wardin as his test.

[the_one_54321]

Filament wrote...
So I take it in D&D you'd only ever trust Clerics and Monks, or any other high will character who never fails a save against Charm or Dominate.

This isn't D&D.

Btw, I had through from Origins that demons tempted you, not bewitched you. The desire demon very distinctly described agreements. The sloth demon assaulted you with illusions, not choices.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 09 avril 2012 - 06:23 .

[the_one_54321]

Ok, point, although it's a bit confusing when compared to past examples.

Even so, everyone of the NPCs fails? None of them are able to resist? Is this really setting up the story that only truly exceptionally strong people can resist demons? So pretty much every mage in existence is a serious liability?

[The Elder King]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Ok, point, although it's a bit confusing when compared to past examples.

Even so, everyone of the NPCs fails? None of them are able to resist? Is this really setting up the story that only truly exceptionally strong people can resist demons? So pretty much every mage in existence is a serious liability?

More or less. While it was a bit different, in DAO only Sten and Morrigan (which was trained by an abomination herself) were able to recognize the situation, other than the Warden, every other companion was trapped.
We don't know what Anders would've done in the situation (Justice/Vengeance took control, and it's obvious that he can't be tempted by demons). Maybe he'd been capable of resisiting temptation.

Modifié par hhh89, 09 avril 2012 - 06:33 .

[the_one_54321]

Next time, I'm invoking the right of annulment. Mages are a catastrophe waiting to happen.

[the_one_54321]

Btw, Hawke is an idiot to bring non-mages into the fade to begin with. Well, mage-Hawke is. Non-mage-Hawke is maybe just guilty of hubris.

Anyway, amended; only Merril would get summarily ditched from the party. The rest, I'd just get really pissed off at.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 09 avril 2012 - 06:38 .

[Iosev]

One or two emotionally and intellectually stable characters in a cast is fine, any more than that and I think the cast would be too boring. I personally enjoyed the variety of characters in DA2 and ME2.

[Xewaka]

the_one_54321 wrote...
So pretty much every mage in existence is a serious liability?

YES.
That's why the Circles and the Templars had to exist.

Modifié par Xewaka, 09 avril 2012 - 06:48 .