275 réponses à ce sujet

[CuriousArtemis]

the_one_54321 wrote...

But these people are the ones I'm relying on. They're supposed to be better than "most people." If they can't handle a very difficult, taxing situation, then why do I have them on my team? 

Because they're your (Hawke's) friends!  Friendship and family are a HUGE part of DA2 storytelling.  Fenris even has a quest called "Alone" (the implication being that he is not as alone as he thinks he is, despite losing his familial connections; he still has his friends, especially Hawke).

This can be a problem if you, the player, genuinely don't like the characters, or if you role-play your Hawke so that s/he does not like some or all of the companions, but the writers can't take such things into account.  I tend to think they created incredibly likeable characters.

As to them being "better than most people" -- do you mean in skill or moral fortitude?  I think they are all "good" people at heart, but temptation happens to the best of us.  As for skill, they are all fairly average in skill, I should think, with Fenris and Anders being the possible exceptions.  Anders is an older mage and has Justice to boost his powers, whereas Fenris' fighting is boosted by the lyrium in his blood/skin.  Merrill is a young mage, albeit well-trained, and Isabela is a good fighter, but nothing to suggest she's super-duper-awesome lol Aveline is also a great fighter, but nothing more.

Modifié par motomotogirl, 09 avril 2012 - 06:59 .

[upsettingshorts]

Xewaka wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
So pretty much every mage in existence is a serious liability?

YES.
That's why the Circles and the Templars had to exist.

...are people seriously only getting this now?

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 09 avril 2012 - 07:09 .

[the_one_54321]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Xewaka wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
So pretty much every mage in existence is a serious liability?

YES.
That's why the Circles and the Templars had to exist.

...are people seriously only getting this now?

No, I've pretty much always been in favor of taking a steel boot to mage skulls. It's just that they are also people, and it would be preferable to find a peaceful solution. If a peaceful, safe, solution is possible.

In Ander's case, I would not have stabbed him in the heart the way he seems to have been.... I would have beaten him to death with a blunt object a la The Godfather.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 09 avril 2012 - 07:12 .

[upsettingshorts]

the_one_54321 wrote...


Next time, I'm invoking the right of annulment. Mages are a catastrophe waiting to happen.

But see, that's why Meredith is off her rocker.

She started making mages who had passed their Harrowing tranquil, and intended to do the same to the rest because of her paranoia.

There's a reason the Harrowing exists, a reason mages who either fail it or aren't deemed capable are put to death or tranquiled.  Because demons are super dangerous.

[the_one_54321]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

Next time, I'm invoking the right of annulment. Mages are a catastrophe waiting to happen.

But see, that's why Meredith is off her rocker.

She started making mages who had passed their Harrowing tranquil, and intended to do the same to the rest because of her paranoia.

There's a reason the Harrowing exists, a reason mages who either fail it or aren't deemed capable are put to death or tranquiled.  Because demons are super dangerous.

In Origins, invoking the Right of Annulment happens after the tower has already been assaulted by demons. But yeah, in either case, the system of Circles and hunting appostates seems to be the absolute best solution available, for keeping the general populace safe.

[Deviija]

Aveline. Aveline is definitely the most well-adjusted in the entire series. I'd like to see more of her ilk, especially for women characters. More than being 'A Lady Character Done Right,' she's a 'Character Done Right' in general. Now, I'm not saying I want to see a party of Guardswomen, or all women be lady warriors, or everyone without problems and baggage of their own that they may wrestle with and talk about with Hawke or ask for help sometimes. I'm speaking about characters in general, men or women. Aveline, her plots, her position, her self-reliance (over herself, her profession and agency), etc. all under the umbrella of a mature, level-headed character is a great outline.

Not everyone can or should be one specific type of character, yet there are plenty of ways to do characterization, flaws, personal quests (that should be optional for the PC to take and have various outcomes if she doesn't do them), faults, and drama without going too far over the top into the Valley of the Extremely Unstable.

I liked the cast of DA2 in general, but Anders, Isabela, Merrill are pretty unable and extreme. The rest vary, but don't come close to the threshold that those three cross, imo. I think having so many extreme people, with their extreme plotpoints, in your party not only polarizes it but can color the perception of the entire cast. The rest of the cast is pretty mundane with lower-key plots by comparison.

[the_one_54321]

Deviija wrote...
Aveline. Aveline is definitely the most well-adjusted in the entire series. I'd like to see more of her ilk, especially for women characters. More than being 'A Lady Character Done Right,' she's a 'Character Done Right' in general. Now, I'm not saying I want to see a party of Guardswomen, or all women be lady warriors, or everyone without problems and baggage of their own that they may wrestle with and talk about with Hawke or ask for help sometimes. I'm speaking about characters in general, men or women. Aveline, her plots, her position, her self-reliance (over herself, her profession and agency), etc. all under the umbrella of a mature, level-headed character is a great outline.

Not everyone can or should be one specific type of character, yet there are plenty of ways to do characterization, flaws, personal quests (that should be optional for the PC to take and have various outcomes if she doesn't do them), faults, and drama without going too far over the top into the Valley of the Extremely Unstable.

I liked the cast of DA2 in general, but Anders, Isabela, Merrill are pretty unable and extreme. The rest vary, but don't come close to the threshold that those three cross, imo. I think having so many extreme people, with their extreme plotpoints, in your party not only polarizes it but can color the perception of the entire cast. The rest of the cast is pretty mundane with lower-key plots by comparison.

I want to upvote this post.

[The Elder King]

Deviija wrote...


I liked the cast of DA2 in general, but Anders, Isabela, Merrill are pretty unable and extreme. The rest vary, but don't come close to the threshold that those three cross, imo. I think having so many extreme people, with their extreme plotpoints, in your party not only polarizes it but can color the perception of the entire cast. The rest of the cast is pretty mundane with lower-key plots by comparison.

Fenris is pretty extreme  about magic himself too, though out of the four, is the only one who have some justification. After what he suffered in the past, it's normal to have that reaction to magic.
Though I have to say, I didn't have problem with Fenris, Isabela and Merrill. I have some problem with Anders, but it's more my fault on sticking in the friendship path. From what I saw about the rivarly path, he seems more reasonable.

Modifié par hhh89, 09 avril 2012 - 07:51 .

[Realmzmaster]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...
By showing that even your loyal companions can be corrupted, it demonstrates the power of demons in the universe.

That's a fair point, but these aren't supposed to be your average street walkers. I can't have people with me that I can't trust when the going gets tough.

Upsettingshorts wrote...
Broadly speaking, though:  I really do not understand this desire to have companions without problems, who follow the Big Protagonist without question, or without his/her having earned it.

I don't know that this really applies. Why can't you have both? Strength and capability, and access to a story development that generates loyalty.

The same thing happens in DAO within the Fade sequence in each individual nightmare. Alistair falls victim to the demons influence in regards to his family. He even states not to tell anyone else he was deceived so easily. Wynne gets lost in her guilt and the warden has to snap her out of it. All of the companions in DAO fail the same way except Morrigan, Sten and Dog. Morrigan because she knows she is in the Fade and the demon is a poor representation of her mother at first. Sten knows he is in the Fade (and in a dream) but he is with his brothers that he lost and happy. The warden reminds him of his committment. Dog is just taking a nap. The Fade has no real effect on Dog.
So seeing the companions in DA2 fall is not unusual. It shows the power that demons have in terms of deception and influence. They prey on your desires. Desires that were there long before meeting Hawke.

All of Bioware games have had obsessive and normal companions. For example in BG you had companions like  Khalid, Minsc, Dynaheir and Xzar. So having abnormal companions is othing new.

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 09 avril 2012 - 08:40 .

[the_one_54321]

In the Origins fade sequence, convincing the companions to fight off the effects is simple enough. In DAII, it's impossible.

Actually, that's an excellent example, thank you. The non-mage NPCs in DA:O are able to fight off the effects of the demon with only a little prodding. Apparently the NPCs in DAII are not strong enough to also manage that.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 09 avril 2012 - 08:31 .

[The Elder King]

the_one_54321 wrote...

In the Origins fade sequence, convincing the companions to fight off the effects is simple enough. In DAII, it's impossible.

Actually, that's an excellent example, thank you. The non-mage NPCs in DA:O are able to fight off the effects of the demon with only a little prodding. Apparently the NPCs in DAII are not strong enough to also manage that.

The demon, and the situation, is different, though. I don't remember well in DA2, but isn't the demon a Pride Demon? Even if the Sloth Demon in DAO controlled a part of the Fade, so it should be a powerful one, I think that the Pride Demon may be stronger (in the Codex the Pride Demons are the strongest of the fives type, but for example, the Sloth demon in DAO controlled some Lust Demons, who should be stronger in theory than a Sloth demon).
We don't know how our DAO companions may have reacted to the offer of the Pride Demon, and we don't know how our DA2 companions may have reacted in the Sloth's Demon dreams.

Modifié par hhh89, 09 avril 2012 - 08:49 .

[Realmzmaster]

the_one_54321 wrote...

In the Origins fade sequence, convincing the companions to fight off the effects is simple enough. In DAII, it's impossible.

Actually, that's an excellent example, thank you. The non-mage NPCs in DA:O are able to fight off the effects of the demon with only a little prodding. Apparently the NPCs in DAII are not strong enough to also manage that.

The problem I have is that Alistair, Wynne and Morrigan fall in the first place. Wynne has a spirit of the Fade in her. You would think it would protect her like Justice does Anders in the Fade. Alistair and Morrigan you think would have the mental fortitude to resist. It shows the power that demons possess even the best succumb and can be tempted if you find the right temptation

[the_one_54321]

Morrigan doesn't fall for it. She just gets pissed off. The fact that Wynne falls for it surprises Wynne as much as anyone else.

[esper]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Morrigan doesn't fall for it. She just gets pissed off. The fact that Wynne falls for it surprises Wynne as much as anyone else.

All your companions fall for it in da:o because they are not capable of getting out of their personal dream like the Warden and Neil (I think that was his name) is.It doesn't matter that Sten and Morrigan are aware that it is a dream when they do not have the willpower to break free of it. They are still trapped and had the warden not come, their bodies would have wasted away. 

[The Elder King]

Realmzmaster wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

In the Origins fade sequence, convincing the companions to fight off the effects is simple enough. In DAII, it's impossible.

Actually, that's an excellent example, thank you. The non-mage NPCs in DA:O are able to fight off the effects of the demon with only a little prodding. Apparently the NPCs in DAII are not strong enough to also manage that.

The problem I have is that Alistair, Wynne and Morrigan fall in the first place. Wynne has a spirit of the Fade in her. You would think it would protect her like Justice does Anders in the Fade. Alistair and Morrigan you think would have the mental fortitude to resist. It shows the power that demons possess even the best succumb and can be tempted if you find the right temptation

The situation of Wynne and Anders are different, Wynne's spirit is merely helping her staying alive, but they aren't united together, as Anders and Justice, or an abomination.

Modifié par hhh89, 09 avril 2012 - 08:52 .

[Cat Fancy]

I guess I prefer it when most of the companions are a little messed up, although I never really thought of it that way. I'm definitely guilty of turning on characters if they're too chill. I don't even like Varric. Terrible, I know. I did like Aveline a lot, though, primarily because of her relationship with Isabela.

I don't really like how all of the characters were susceptible to demonic corruption in DAII, but that's mostly because I'm not as interested as the writers are in exploring a world where fascism makes (like, slightly) more sense than it does in the real one. I'm fine just attributing the companions' susceptibility to (unnecessarily) poor preparation, though, as we've seen plenty of people fend off possession.

[Maria Caliban]

sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

Another quote from Hawke: Hawke this, Hawke that. Why does everything fall to me?

That was diplomatic Hawke. She also said, "Let's make Kirkwall a better place for everyone!"

Which tells you neatly why everything fell to her.

[The Elder King]

esper wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

Morrigan doesn't fall for it. She just gets pissed off. The fact that Wynne falls for it surprises Wynne as much as anyone else.

All your companions fall for it in da:o because they are not capable of getting out of their personal dream like the Warden and Neil (I think that was his name) is.It doesn't matter that Sten and Morrigan are aware that it is a dream when they do not have the willpower to break free of it. They are still trapped and had the warden not come, their bodies would have wasted away. 

That didn't make sense though. I could understand Sten, becuase he wanted to stay in the Fade, because he missed his companions, but Morrigan recognized that it was an illusion, and she didn't want to stay here, like the Warden in his/her dream. The demons should've acted in the same way as it acted in the Warden's case.

Modifié par hhh89, 09 avril 2012 - 08:59 .

[Realmzmaster]

hhh89 wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

In the Origins fade sequence, convincing the companions to fight off the effects is simple enough. In DAII, it's impossible.

Actually, that's an excellent example, thank you. The non-mage NPCs in DA:O are able to fight off the effects of the demon with only a little prodding. Apparently the NPCs in DAII are not strong enough to also manage that.

The problem I have is that Alistair, Wynne and Morrigan fall in the first place. Wynne has a spirit of the Fade in her. You would think it would protect her like Justice does Anders in the Fade. Alistair and Morrigan you think would have the mental fortitude to resist. It shows the power that demons possess even the best succumb and can be tempted if you find the right temptation

The situation of Wynne and Anders are different, Wynne's spirit is merely helping her staying alive, but they aren't united together, as Anders and Justice, or an abomination.

The spirit is trapped in Wynne's body unable to free itself. It would be in its best interest to make sure that the body it was tied to did not fail and waste away. The spirit and Wynne are one just like Anders and Justice.

[the_one_54321]

esper wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
Morrigan doesn't fall for it. She just gets pissed off. The fact that Wynne falls for it surprises Wynne as much as anyone else.

All your companions fall for it in da:o because they are not capable of getting out of their personal dream like the Warden and Neil (I think that was his name) is.It doesn't matter that Sten and Morrigan are aware that it is a dream when they do not have the willpower to break free of it. They are still trapped and had the warden not come, their bodies would have wasted away. 

In DAII, Hawke is right there trying to convince them not to fall for it.

Also, there's no way to say that Sten and Morrigan would not have broken out of the dream. It's just scripted so that you arrive while they are being irrate at the demon.

[Maria Caliban]

motomotogirl wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
She sells you for a boat.

 

All your companions will betray you, hon, not just Isabela.  The writers were likely trying to show the corrupting powers of a demon (Marethari makes a remark afterward that many people are not strong enough to resistance or something along those lines, blah blah blah).  Isabela's scene was just kind fo stupid and poorly written.  Fenris' was also stupid.  I think the demon promised to make him a magister or something.  Geez, really?

Later on, she'll let a slaver who tried to have her killed go for a boat. I'd say the scene with the demon was spot on.

[The Elder King]

Realmzmaster wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

In the Origins fade sequence, convincing the companions to fight off the effects is simple enough. In DAII, it's impossible.

Actually, that's an excellent example, thank you. The non-mage NPCs in DA:O are able to fight off the effects of the demon with only a little prodding. Apparently the NPCs in DAII are not strong enough to also manage that.

The problem I have is that Alistair, Wynne and Morrigan fall in the first place. Wynne has a spirit of the Fade in her. You would think it would protect her like Justice does Anders in the Fade. Alistair and Morrigan you think would have the mental fortitude to resist. It shows the power that demons possess even the best succumb and can be tempted if you find the right temptation

The situation of Wynne and Anders are different, Wynne's spirit is merely helping her staying alive, but they aren't united together, as Anders and Justice, or an abomination.

The spirit is trapped in Wynne's body unable to free itself. It would be in its best interest to make sure that the body it was tied to did not fail and waste away. The spirit and Wynne are one just like Anders and Justice.

He may be trapped in Wynne's body, but they aren't fused togheter. If she dies, it'll probably go back in the Fade, while Justice will probably die.  You should consider that Anders-Justice's situation is close, to a demonic possession, while Wynne's situation with her spirit is what Justice had planned for Anders, if Ander's anger haven't corrupted Justice.

[Realmzmaster]

the_one_54321 wrote...

esper wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
Morrigan doesn't fall for it. She just gets pissed off. The fact that Wynne falls for it surprises Wynne as much as anyone else.

All your companions fall for it in da:o because they are not capable of getting out of their personal dream like the Warden and Neil (I think that was his name) is.It doesn't matter that Sten and Morrigan are aware that it is a dream when they do not have the willpower to break free of it. They are still trapped and had the warden not come, their bodies would have wasted away. 

In DAII, Hawke is right there trying to convince them not to fall for it.

Also, there's no way to say that Sten and Morrigan would not have broken out of the dream. It's just scripted so that you arrive while they are being irrate at the demon.

Morrigan is irate but seems to be unable to break out alone since she tells the warden to kill it and it is more annoying than her mother. Sten accepts his fate and his haapy with it. He doesn't want to leave. He knows he is in a dream.

[esper]

hhh89 wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

In the Origins fade sequence, convincing the companions to fight off the effects is simple enough. In DAII, it's impossible.

Actually, that's an excellent example, thank you. The non-mage NPCs in DA:O are able to fight off the effects of the demon with only a little prodding. Apparently the NPCs in DAII are not strong enough to also manage that.

The problem I have is that Alistair, Wynne and Morrigan fall in the first place. Wynne has a spirit of the Fade in her. You would think it would protect her like Justice does Anders in the Fade. Alistair and Morrigan you think would have the mental fortitude to resist. It shows the power that demons possess even the best succumb and can be tempted if you find the right temptation

The situation of Wynne and Anders are different, Wynne's spirit is merely helping her staying alive, but they aren't united together, as Anders and Justice, or an abomination.

The spirit is trapped in Wynne's body unable to free itself. It would be in its best interest to make sure that the body it was tied to did not fail and waste away. The spirit and Wynne are one just like Anders and Justice.

He may be trapped in Wynne's body, but they aren't fused togheter. If she dies, it'll probably go back in the Fade, while Justice will probably die.  You should consider that Anders-Justice's situation is close, to a demonic possession, while Wynne's situation with her spirit is what Justice had planned for Anders, if Ander's anger haven't corrupted Justice.

The spirit is very much there in Wynne. It got trapped in her body trying to ressurrect her. Wynne is essential death had the spirit not possessed her. She says as much in Origion. (Sorry, but I am taken). It just seemed that since the Faith spirit didn't plan for it, it didn't get much say over her brain, living Wynne in complete control.
(As far as I understand it even gets transferred out in Asunder and into another body, but that fact is non-canon anyway. As wynne might not have made it that far.)