275 réponses à ce sujet

[Realmzmaster]

the_one_54321 wrote...

esper wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
Wynne's spirit is there only to help her and keep her alive. Ander's spirit has a motive of its own.

Wanting to keep somebody alive is pretty much a motive of its own.

Wynne's spirit does not direct her to do anything or fulfill any purpose. She makes her own decisions. She's not an abomination. Anders is compelled to seek Justice's ends. He is an abominaion.

Alternate version;
Wynne is win and Anders is looney toons! 

Or it could be the other way around Justice is compelled to seek Anders ends. It is Anders anger that corrupted Justice. Justice was fine living in a dead man's body.

[BillsVengenace]

Characters need to be more like Aveline, a three dimensional characters with human and relatable hopes and desires, and problems and despairs and less like the rest.

[David Gaider]

Some characters will be sensible like Aveline or Wynne. Some will be filled with conflict (inner or outer) like Anders or Zevran. That's unlikely to change.

[BillsVengenace]

David Gaider wrote...

Some characters will be sensible like Aveline or Wynne. Some will be filled with conflict (inner or outer) like Anders or Zevran. That's unlikely to change.

The problem isn't that they are "filled with conflict", the problem is that they are one-dimensional and not-relatable. Anders would have probably worked as a character in DA2 if he was a three-dimensional character the player could understand and relate to.  In the end he just comes off as an anti-Templar nutbag who I was more than happy to stick a knife into.  

I don't think Zevran falls into his catagory.  I think he was a fair amount of depth, certainly more than his DA2 version, Isabela.  I think a perfect example of the difference between a three-dimensional character and a one-dimensional character.  Zevran is "randy" but that isn't just his character, he has far more facets than just that.  Whereas all Isabela talks about is sex, sex, sex.  

Also Zevran will backstab you IF he doesn't know you well enough.  He has a senes of honour.  Isabela will backstab you and cause the deaths of countless thousands no matter how well she knows you or how good friends you are.  Which definitely seems like a case of plot over-powering character.

[Teddie Sage]

OP, Dragon Age isn't your story. Only the writers shall decide what they want to write about it and how they will do it... Just saying.

[the_one_54321]

David Gaider wrote...
Some characters will be sensible like Aveline or Wynne. Some will be filled with conflict (inner or outer) like Anders or Zevran. That's unlikely to change.

Would you mind expanding a little, concerning your views on character sensibility versus conflict in the Dragon Age franchise as it now stands?
 :happy:

[slashthedragon]

BillsVengenace wrote...


The problem isn't that they are "filled with conflict", the problem is that they are one-dimensional and not-relatable. Anders would have probably worked as a character in DA2 if he was a three-dimensional character the player could understand and relate to.  In the end he just comes off as an anti-Templar nutbag who I was more than happy to stick a knife into.  

I don't think Zevran falls into his catagory.  I think he was a fair amount of depth, certainly more than his DA2 version, Isabela.  I think a perfect example of the difference between a three-dimensional character and a one-dimensional character.  Zevran is "randy" but that isn't just his character, he has far more facets than just that.  Whereas all Isabela talks about is sex, sex, sex.  

Also Zevran will backstab you IF he doesn't know you well enough.  He has a senes of honour.  Isabela will backstab you and cause the deaths of countless thousands no matter how well she knows you or how good friends you are.  Which definitely seems like a case of plot over-powering character.

Quoted for being an excellent post.

[Foxbat Killer]

BillsVengenace wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Some characters will be sensible like Aveline or Wynne. Some will be filled with conflict (inner or outer) like Anders or Zevran. That's unlikely to change.

The problem isn't that they are "filled with conflict", the problem is that they are one-dimensional and not-relatable. Anders would have probably worked as a character in DA2 if he was a three-dimensional character the player could understand and relate to.  In the end he just comes off as an anti-Templar nutbag who I was more than happy to stick a knife into.  

I don't think Zevran falls into his catagory.  I think he was a fair amount of depth, certainly more than his DA2 version, Isabela.  I think a perfect example of the difference between a three-dimensional character and a one-dimensional character.  Zevran is "randy" but that isn't just his character, he has far more facets than just that.  Whereas all Isabela talks about is sex, sex, sex.  

Also Zevran will backstab you IF he doesn't know you well enough.  He has a senes of honour.  Isabela will backstab you and cause the deaths of countless thousands no matter how well she knows you or how good friends you are.  Which definitely seems like a case of plot over-powering character.

Spot on.

[Johnny Jaded]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Wyne, well, Wyne was just made of win. She's nothing but wisdom and support the whole way through.

That's a matter of opinion. There are plenty, myself included, who felt Wynne was nothing but self-righteousness and platitudes.

the_one_54321 wrote...

And then you have the other end of the spectrum with Mr. Stabby-stab murder happy elf.

You mean Zevran, the man who never asks you for help, shows up to help you deal with a guild member (assuming approval is high enough) and manages to take on pretty much the entire guild of Antivan Crows single-handedly? That "other end of the spectrum" seems to fit the bill perfectly for what you want. You just dislike his personality.

Deviija wrote...

Aveline. Aveline is definitely the most well-adjusted in the entire series. 

I'd argue Varric is. Aveline needed Hawke to play match-maker while Varric has no emotional instability or even insecurities - he'd deal with Bartrand by himself if the game let him. Also, chesthair!

BillsVengenace wrote...
Isabela will backstab you and cause the deaths of countless thousands no matter how well she knows you or
how good friends you are.  Which definitely seems like a case of plot over-powering character.

Right, because it's not possible for a person to be that self-centred.

Modifié par Johnny Jaded, 10 avril 2012 - 12:51 .

[the_one_54321]

Johnny Jaded wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
Wyne, well, Wyne was just made of win. She's nothing but wisdom and support the whole way through.

That's a matter of opinion. There are plenty, myself included, who felt Wynne was nothing but self-righteousness and platitudes.

And she can't be selfrightousness, platitudes and right about everything at the same time? 

Johnny Jaded wrote...
You mean Zevran, the man who never asks you for help, shows up to help you deal with a guild member (assuming approval is high enough) and manages to take on pretty much the entire guild of Antivan Crows single-handedly? That "other end of the spectrum" seems to fit the bill perfectly for what you want. You just dislike his personality.

Yes, it was just his personality. Being, not only comfortable, but happy with the idea of making a living off of expensive murder isn't a sign of mental instability.

Granted, this is fiction, so having the charismatic murder-happy villain type isn't at all out of place. But having a place doesn't make him not murder-happy.

BillsVengenace wrote...
The problem isn't that they are "filled with conflict", the problem is that they are one-dimensional and not-relatable.

My concern is far less an issue of them being relatable as it is them being reliable. As for them having a 3rd dimension, some of them very clearly do. In fact, after the one time I actually spent time in conversation with Zevran, I'd say that he has quite a broad 3rd dimension. I simply took issue with the fact that the extra dimension was thoroughly evil.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 10 avril 2012 - 01:14 .

[David Gaider]

BillsVengenace wrote...
The problem isn't that they are "filled with conflict", the problem is that they are one-dimensional and not-relatable.

If you say so. If the demand is "write it better", then so be it. Thanks for the tip.

[Withidread]

You all can keep your emotionally/mentally stable characters/companions.

I want a companion that makes Xzar from BG look well balanced.

[Deviija]

Johnny Jaded wrote...
I'd argue Varric is. Aveline needed Hawke to play match-maker while Varric has no emotional instability or even insecurities - he'd deal with Bartrand by himself if the game let him. Also, chesthair!

Varric and Aveline are very adjusted.  Either one is a good example of being well-adjusted.  I just find Aveline the most well-adjusted as a personal opinion.  Likewise, you do not have to help Aveline with her romantic pursuits.  You can turn her away when she asks for help and she's quite fine with it and you're still pals or rivals or whatever.  

I wouldn't call it 'emotional instability.'  She is a widow and unused to courting.  The same label of 'emotional instability' can be said for Varric wanting bloody lethal vengeance on his own brother, in that case.     

[the_one_54321]

Deviija wrote...
I wouldn't call it 'emotional instability.'

It's more like social instability. Which I have zero interest in exploring in an RPG. Heroism and romance, please.

(not that I think it makes the character bad, I'm just not interested in exploring such aspects of a charcter in a fantasy RPG)

Modifié par the_one_54321, 10 avril 2012 - 01:31 .

[Johnny Jaded]

the_one_54321 wrote...

charismatic murder-happy villain type
[...]
I simply took issue with the fact that [Zevran's] extra dimension was thoroughly evil.

Granted, it's been a while since I played Origins, but Zevran came across as merely flippant, rather than "murder-happy" or evil. Admittedly, though, my morals are incredibly loose.

Deviija wrote...

I wouldn't call it 'emotional instability.' 

I meant that generally  - as in relation to all the other characters - not Aveline specifically. She came across as insecure and socially awkward, more than instable.

Modifié par Johnny Jaded, 10 avril 2012 - 01:38 .

[the_one_54321]

Johnny Jaded wrote...
Granted, it's been a while since I played Origins, but Zevran came across as merely flippant, rather than "murder-happy" or evil. Admittedly, though, my morals are incredibly loose.

I remember, after exploring his dialog options, that he waxed philisophic about the joys of living well off of paid assassination. It was  his expression of intending to go right back into that line of work, perhaps even taking advantage of the local power vacum left by fighting off the crows, that left me with zero interest in allowing him to stay alive or ever join the party again.

sjpelkessjpeler wrote...
You're so harsh...................
Let the girls (and boys) who are into a little feeling here and there have their fun too.

I actually love the emotional stuff. I just don't want it in the style of high school drama hour.

I also prefer for the villain types to remain at the pointy end of the sword.

Personal preferences, I know. But that's kinda the whole point of this thread.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 10 avril 2012 - 01:50 .

[Maria Caliban]

While I have issues with DA II's story, I have never considered the companions 2-demensional.

[Lucy Glitter]

“She lacks the indefinable charm of weakness.” - Oscar Wilde
Emotionally stable characters are boring. Conflict brings stories. Emotionally stable, to me, is not real. No one is every really emotionally stable for important moments in life. These stories are in times of conflict, and conflict never brings stability. Epilogues of these stories are where stability lies. 

...

Cheesus Crackers I am really sick. I don't think anything I just said made much sense. Nevertheless, it's my opinion on the subject of companions supposedly not being good enough... or whatever the original argument is. The characters in BW games are the reason I keep coming back to these gorram games. They're too good.

[the_one_54321]

Lucy_Glitter wrote...
Emotionally stable characters are boring.

As a rule? 

Lucy_Glitter wrote...
These stories are in times of conflict, and conflict never brings stability. Epilogues of these stories are where stability lies.

I don't disagree, but the instability you describe is of circumstance, not of character.


I do not believe it holds that reliable = uninteresting. A couple of the posts above seem to find Varic, ostensibly a fan favorite, to be a very mentally stable character.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 10 avril 2012 - 02:07 .

[upsettingshorts]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Lucy_Glitter wrote...
Emotionally stable characters are boring.

As a rule?

In order:

Yes.
Didn't play Final Fantasy.
Good lord yes.

the_one_54321 wrote...

Deviija wrote...
I wouldn't call it 'emotional instability.'

It's more like social instability. Which I have zero interest in exploring in an RPG. Heroism and romance, please. 

(not that I think it makes the character bad, I'm just not interested in exploring such aspects of a charcter in a fantasy RPG)

But I am.

Limiting storytelling to HEROISM and ROMANCE seems... well, stupid. 

I'd love for there to be more characters like Anders who do Anders-things in cRPGs, for example.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 10 avril 2012 - 02:15 .

[the_one_54321]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
Yes.
Didn't play Final Fantasy.
Good lord yes.

Paul and Aragorn are not emotionally unstable!

Perhaps you thought I was refering to the movie version?  The books provide a dramatically different take on them. And I'd still say that except for a couple of specific instances, Aragorn in the movies holds rather true to that.

Upsettingshorts wrote...
Limiting storytelling to HEROISM and ROMANCE seems... well, stupid.

Themes, not story telling limits. This would be like in direct opposition to saying part of the story can be that you help Aveline sort out her love life.

Anders' storyline fits in with the heroism and romance theme. He just happens to also be utterly unreliable as a companion. Which works for his story, but is a problem when you combine it with the 3 or so other unreliable characters.

.......................................................

One should not equate emotional stability with emotional emptiness. They are not one and the same.

Paul Atreides approaches his goals with a single mindedness that is generated by his emotional connection to his father and his former life. That doesn't make him unstable. Quite the contrary, he has a good sense of what he's doing and why.

Aragorn, as shown in the books, has deep emotional connections to the goals laid out before him, but never once falters or despairs. In the movies, some emotional weakness themes were added to create more connection to the character on the silver screen.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 10 avril 2012 - 02:28 .

[upsettingshorts]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...
Yes.
Didn't play Final Fantasy.
Good lord yes.

Paul and Aragorn are not emotionally unstable!

Perhaps you thought I was refering to the movie version?  The books provide a dramatically different take on them. And I'd still say that except for a couple of specific instances, Aragorn in the movies holds rather true to that.

I wasn't disputing that they were emotionally stable.

I was saying they were boring.  I never for a second found Aragorn remotely compelling as a character, for example.  

the_one_54321 wrote...

Aragorn, as shown in the books, has deep emotional connections to the goals laid out before him, but never once falters or despairs. In the movies, some emotional weakness themes were added to create more connection to the character on the silver screen. 

Exactly.  Profoundly boring.

Of course, "emotionally unstable" is not a pre-requisite for interesting.  I just think your examples - the ones I'm familiar enough with to have an opinion anyway - are poor ones.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 10 avril 2012 - 02:30 .