275 réponses à ce sujet

[Maria Caliban]

the_one_54321 wrote...

PurebredCorn wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...
Broadly speaking, though: I really do not understand this desire to have companions without problems... It was more interesting to find out about them through their struggles than interrogating them at camp.

I bolded that last part because I agree.

Again I'll say, why can't you have a companion that doesn't push all his problems onto your shoulders, but you still find out about them by sharing in struggles?

That sounds like Varric and Aveline.

Aveline asks you for help with her love life after several years of having your back, and only asks for help again when the qunari are about to attack the city. Varric is the one that helps you at the beginning of the game, and only asks for help once when he wants to confront his brother.

I assume both of them have more problems in their life that they don't bother to share with you.

[Mmw04014]

Sylvanpyxie wrote...

I want my companions complicated, conflicted, and unreliable.

This is fine, characters with issues can be excellent, as long as they evolve beyond them. After all, there's a big difference between a character that has issues and a character that is *defined* by their issues.

Valen Shadowbreath, from Hordes of the Underdark, is a prime example of a character that has issues. He's suffered in his past, and continues to suffer when he's traveling with you, but he doesn't let his suffering define who he is. He doesn't dwell on everything that has happened to him, and everything that might happen to him, he's let himself become his own person.

Fenris or Anders, on the other hand, are defined by their issues. Everything they say or do is related to them, they let themselves get eaten alive by their problems and refuse to evolve beyond that.

A character defined by their issues, is not a character. It's merely a walking drama vendor.

This is really everything I would have said.

[the_one_54321]

Maria Caliban wrote...
Aveline asks you for help with her love life

Please never include this kind of storyline in a game again. Not even close to being appropriate subject matter for "dark fantasy," or a fantasy RPG in general.

I know, I know, it's just my opinion.

Maria Caliban wrote..
only asks for help again when the qunari are about to attack the city.

That is cool. Why can't we have more of that, and less of "I'm a crazy possessed mage, but I think I'm in control."

Maria Caliban wrote..
Varric is the one that helps you at the beginning of the game, and only asks for help once when he wants to confront his brother.

Starting to seem like I actually have no issue at all with Varric as a character.

Except that dwarves should have beards. Or else don't bother with calling them dwarves. Yet another hill I'm willing to die on. (as many of those hills as there seems to be, I guess I shouldn't be hoping for a very long life expectancy...)

[Maria Caliban]

You'll be shocked to know that I loved hooking Aveline up with Guardsman Sideburns.

[Arthur Cousland]

Dwarves not having beards isn't as bad as the dwaves in the elder scrolls games who are actually tall elves. They deserve to be extinct there.

[The Elder King]

the_one_54321 wrote...


Starting to seem like I actually have no issue at all with Varric as a character.

Except that dwarves should have beards. Or else don't bother with calling them dwarves. Yet another hill I'm willing to die on. (as many of those hills as there seems to be, I guess I shouldn't be hoping for a very long life expectancy...)

His beard decided to migrate on his chest:whistle:
Joking aside, in general I'd agree with you, I think dwarves should have beards. But considering the fact that from DAO there were a lot of dwarves without a beard (and you can even make a dwarf PC without a beard, though it'll most likely be ugly as hell), I'm in peace with that.
And right now I can't imagine Varricc with a beard. It'd be....strange.

Arthur Cousland wrote...

Dwarves not having beards isn't
as bad as the dwaves in the elder scrolls games who are actually tall
elves. They deserve to be extinct there.

Plus, this. I really can't undestand what was in the mind of the person who wrote/decided this.

Modifié par hhh89, 10 avril 2012 - 05:39 .

[LolaLei]

hhh89 wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...


Starting to seem like I actually have no issue at all with Varric as a character.

Except that dwarves should have beards. Or else don't bother with calling them dwarves. Yet another hill I'm willing to die on. (as many of those hills as there seems to be, I guess I shouldn't be hoping for a very long life expectancy...)

His beard decided to migrate on his chest:whistle:
Joking aside, in general I'd agree with you, I think dwarves should have beards. But considering the fact that from DAO there were a lot of dwarves without a beard (and you can even make a dwarf PC without a beard, though it'll most likely be ugly as hell), I'm in peace with that.
And right now I can't imagine Varricc with a beard. It'd be....strange.

Arthur Cousland wrote...

Dwarves not having beards isn't
as bad as the dwaves in the elder scrolls games who are actually tall
elves. They deserve to be extinct there.

Plus, this. I really can't undestand what was in the mind of the person who wrote/decided this.

Is it wrong that I actually found Varric charming as hell? If he had been a romance option, I would have totally gone there!

[The Elder King]

LolaLei wrote...



Is it wrong that I actually found Varric charming as hell? If he had been a romance option, I would have totally gone there!

Not at all, I really liked Varric. I was already in peace with having beardless dwarves before DA2. As I said, it'd be strange now having a bearded Varric (assuming the beard is one of the long ones).

Modifié par hhh89, 10 avril 2012 - 05:45 .

[upsettingshorts]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...
Aveline asks you for help with her love life

Please never include this kind of storyline in a game again. Not even close to being appropriate subject matter for "dark fantasy," or a fantasy RPG in general.

I know, I know, it's just my opinion.

Nah that's just factually wrong.

Donnic and Aveline's quest was great levity in a game where it seemed as if no-one deserved happiness as the escalating crazy got out of hand and the world burned down.

the_one_54321 wrote... 

Starting to seem like I actually have no issue at all with Varric as a character.

Except that dwarves should have beards. Or else don't bother with calling them dwarves. 

That's racist.

[the_one_54321]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
Donnic and Aveline's quest was great levity in a game where it seemed as if no-one deserved happiness as the escalating crazy got out of hand and the world burned down.

Put all the crazy in one building and then burn it to the ground. This whole Kirkwall approach is starting to make sense.

Upsettingshorts wrote...
That's racist.

Then I'm racist! Give dwarves their beards back.

[Maria Caliban]

You also may be shocked to know that I liked the Elder Scrolls dwemer, and consider them my favorite implementation of the dwarven race.

Also, I love their Babylonian style beads. I'd be pro-face hair if dudes could manage this.

[upsettingshorts]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...
Donnic and Aveline's quest was great levity in a game where it seemed as if no-one deserved happiness as the escalating crazy got out of hand and the world burned down.

Put all the crazy in one building and then burn it to the ground. This whole Kirkwall approach is starting to make sense.

It sounds like you're only interested in playing one incredibly narrow kind of story in your RPGs.  

And I can't imagine that being fun.  

the_one_54321 wrote... 

Upsettingshorts wrote...
That's racist.

Then I'm racist! Give dwarves their beards back.

The dwarves have beards.  Varric mentions why he doesn't have one.  He's an outsider and doesn't give a crap about "dwarf culture."  So by demanding he wear a beard, you're denying his individuality to satisfy your own expectations.

That's pretty much the definition of being a jerk.  

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 10 avril 2012 - 05:49 .

[Arthur Cousland]

Varric did have some scruff at least.

I'm sure many would have "gone there", if Varric was a romance option. Many of my male Hawkes would have romanced Aveline if possible, and at least one may have gone lesbian just to get a piece of Varric and his chest hair.

My only real "issue" with the Dwemer, is that dwarf is another term for a short person.  There's nothing short about Bethesda's dwarves.  It also seems strange how dwarves and elves are usually rival races, and yet the dwemer are elves.

Modifié par Arthur Cousland, 10 avril 2012 - 05:55 .

[the_one_54321]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
It sounds like you're only interested in playing one incredibly narrow kind of story in your RPGs.  

And I can't imagine that being fun.

Whilst I appreciate the instances of humor that often come in BioWare games, I feel they kind of overdo it. In an Epic, the humor should be brief and interspaced. Only a short reprieve from the important tasks at hand. Beyond that, there's all manner of style options available in story writing. Humor is an issue only of atmosphere.

Perhaps Aveline's love life fits into that description. It doesn't sound like it to me.

More specificaly, I play lots of other styles of games, and enjoy lots of other styles of stories in other media. I'm talking specifically to BioWare's production of RPGs here. The context is not variable.

Upsettingshorts wrote...
That's pretty much the definition of being a jerk.

Allow me to appologize to that fictional character for being a jerk.

[Deviija]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...
Aveline asks you for help with her love life

Please never include this kind of storyline in a game again. Not even close to being appropriate subject matter for "dark fantasy," or a fantasy RPG in general.

I know, I know, it's just my opinion.

Like I mentioned in a previous post, you can tell Aveline (and Varric) that you won't help them and they will be fine with your decision.  They will then go solve their own problems.  Maybe not to the same ends as it would have gone if you were involved and influenced things, but at least they deal with their own lives even if you don't want to.  

As for dwarves?  There are beards.  Just not *every* dwarf has them.  It is varied.  I like it.  Stubble and clean-shaven dwarves can be pretty attractive, as Varric shows.  The thing about dwarves and beards is that it somehow comes along with 'must be ugly.'  Dude Dwarves don't need to be ugly, just as Lady Dwarves do not need beards themselves or to be ugly.  So I'm happy with how they are in DA.  Dudes could use some prettying up still, imo, but eh.  

[the_one_54321]

Deviija wrote...
Like I mentioned in a previous post, you can tell Aveline that you won't help.

Yeah, but the fact that you can say no doesn't mean that it's not there. It's a matter of personal preference and of atmosphere. I personally prefer that the atmosphere not include this kind of story line. Keep it appropriate to the genre. "I need help with this guy that likes me" is not what I see as appropriate to this kind of a story.

ME2 did a better job of getting you involved with the character's personal problems in that they weren't social drama like this was. Although there, the problem was that none of them could handle their problems without putting them on Shepard's shoulders and having him fix things for them.

Deviija wrote...
As for dwarves?  There are beards.  Just not *every* dwarf has them.  It is varied.  I like it.  Stubble and clean-shaven dwarves can be pretty attractive, as Varric shows.  The thing about dwarves and beards is that it somehow comes along with 'must be ugly.'  Dude Dwarves don't need to be ugly, just as Lady Dwarves do not need beards themselves or to be ugly.  So I'm happy with how they are in DA.  Dudes could use some prettying up still, imo, but eh.

I'm a traditionalist with these kinds of stories. I'm willing to accept that Varric shaves his beard off, but it's the just the general issue of beardless dwarves in Thedas overall. I don't think they should have been presented that way, starting back in DA:O.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 10 avril 2012 - 06:09 .

[upsettingshorts]

 

the_one_54321 wrote...

More specificaly, I play lots of other styles of games, and enjoy lots of other styles of stories in other media. I'm talking specifically to BioWare's production of RPGs here. The context is not variable. 

 

 So let's see if I'm keeping proper track of what you expect out of BioWare RPGs so far, in this thread alone:

• No/less humor
• "Epic"
• "Heroism"
• "Romance"
• Companions who are well adjusted
• Companions who are perfectly loyal
• Companions who are exceptional people
• Companions who handle their problems on their own
• No companions with problems large enough to define them
• No ambiguous "villain types" in the party
• No extreme companions
• No atmosphere-breaking romance between non-PCs
• Excellence of companions measured by how correct they are about things
• Companions who don't ask for help but you still share in their struggles (???)
• Dwarves must have beards

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 10 avril 2012 - 06:13 .

[the_one_54321]

[quote]Upsettingshorts wrote...
Less humor[/quote]
Yes.

[quote]Upsettingshorts wrote...
Epic[/quote]
Yes.

[quote]Upsettingshorts wrote...
Heroism[/quote]
Yes.

[quote]Upsettingshorts wrote...
Romance[/quote]
Yes.

[quote]Upsettingshorts wrote...
Companions who are well adjusted[/quote]
Yes. A higher proportion than we have seen so far, anyway.

[quote]Upsettingshorts wrote...
Companions who are perfectly loyal[/quote]
No, that point was in regard to the fact that every single one of them turns on you in the fade in DAII.

[quote]Upsettingshorts wrote...
Companions who are exceptional people[/quote]
My understanding was that they already were supposed to be.

[quote]Upsettingshorts wrote...
Companions who handle their problems on their own[/quote]
Again, higher proportion than what we’ve seen so far.

[quote]Upsettingshorts wrote...
No ambiguous “villain types” in the party.[/quote]
So long as I’m allowed to kill them instead of accept them, it’s fine. Like with Zevran.

[quote]Upsettingshorts wrote...
No extreme companions[/quote]
A lower proportion than we have seen recently. Kirkwall was loaded up with crazy.

[quote]Upsettingshorts wrote...
No atmosphere breaking romance between non-PCs[/quote]
Pretty much.

[quote]Upsettingshorts wrote...
Excellence of companions measured by how correct they are about things[/quote]
I never said that. That’s an issue of them being sensible, not excellent.

[quote]Upsettingshorts wrote...
Companions don’t ask for help but you still share in their struggles[/quote]
There’s no rule that says “struggles” need to be related to a companion’s personal problems.

[quote]Upsettingshorts wrote...
Dwarves must have beards[/quote]
It’s too late for Dragon Age, in this regard. I just complain about it.

[Johnny Jaded]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I'd be pro-face hair if dudes could manage this.

I give you...ZZ Top:

[the_one_54321]

I heard that one of them used a fake beard. I was heartbroken.

[MarauderESP]

David Gaider wrote...

Takamori The Templar wrote...
Dear Mr. Gaider, I mean no offense to your person, but can you or your writer team craft a character with that complexity?

I wrote Irenicus, but beyond that I really can't answer your subjective question in a way that will satisfy you. Fans have a variety of reactions to followers-- some brand them "whiners" when they utter the first complaint, some love the drama, some adore them and some hate them passionately... really I'm happy with the followers being anything that isn't simply unremarkable.

As for your estimation of a complex character, you're welcome to hold whatever bar you wish. Whether we reach it is not really something I'm worried about, so long as our characters do what we need them to do.

wow that is(becouse im still playing BGII) a really good villian, can u repeat the formidable task that u did with that character (i mean something on those lines)?

P.D: english is not my main language sorry for the mistakes!!

[LolaLei]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

 

the_one_54321 wrote...

More specificaly, I play lots of other styles of games, and enjoy lots of other styles of stories in other media. I'm talking specifically to BioWare's production of RPGs here. The context is not variable. 

 

 So let's see if I'm keeping proper track of what you expect out of BioWare RPGs so far, in this thread alone:

• No/less humor
• "Epic"
• "Heroism"
• "Romance"
• Companions who are well adjusted
• Companions who are perfectly loyal
• Companions who are exceptional people
• Companions who handle their problems on their own
• No companions with problems large enough to define them
• No ambiguous "villain types" in the party
• No extreme companions
• No atmosphere-breaking romance between non-PCs
• Excellence of companions measured by how correct they are about things
• Companions who don't ask for help but you still share in their struggles (???)
• Dwarves must have beards

... Sounds dull.

[the_one_54321]

LolaLei wrote...
... Sounds dull.

Why does everyone assume that conflict needs to be driven by character flaws on the party side? 
Conflict can come from any number of situational or circumstantial events. Not to mention that emotional conflict is likewise subject to stylization, presentation, and circumstance. There are so many potential variables, one could never count them all. The implication that these preferences are an extreme limitation is somewhat misleading.

Also, I didn't even agree with his assessment on all of them.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 10 avril 2012 - 09:12 .

[LolaLei]

the_one_54321 wrote...

LolaLei wrote...
... Sounds dull.

Why does everyone assume that conflict needs to be driven by character flaws on the party side? 
Conflict can come from any number of situational or circumstantial events. Not to mention that emotional conflict is likewise subject to stylization, presentation, and circumstance. There are so many potential variables, one could never count them all. The implication that these preferences are an extreme limitation is somewhat misleading.

Also, I didn't even agree with his assessment on all of them.

It doesn't need to be character conflict as such, just an interesting back story. I wouldn't want a group of companions that were all completely at peace with life though, it would become a bit... samey. That being said I don't want a whole group of drama queens because that would also become samey.

I want a vast array of varying personalities that my character can take the time to get to know. When it boils down to it I grow attached to these games because of the characters. To use a good example i'll refer to the ME3 endings: I wasn't playing to save the galaxy, I was playing to save the characters in it, my team mates and crew and all the quirky little NPC's we met along the way. In order for me to care about these characters I need to feel something for them.

Modifié par LolaLei, 10 avril 2012 - 09:29 .