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[Cultist]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Really?

Jaheira and Khalid - fighter and druid, pretty normal half-elves
Minsc - normal human ranger...slightly crazy
Nalia - normal human, ex noble
Anomen - normal human fighter/cleric
Keldorn - normal human, paladin
Xan - depressing elf
Mazzy - halfling figher
Jan Jansen - demented gnome inventor
Etc...

Pretty normal races, normal classes, with normal powers.
if there was anything colorfull about them it was their personalities - they didn't have any other gimmicks (like being a magical experiment or somesuch)

And what about others? Drow in human lands, tiefling, fairy elf, lycantrope, Sarevok. And if you look at Planescape: Torment, then every companion is unique and strange and loved by fans for that.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Cultist wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Really?

Jaheira and Khalid - fighter and druid, pretty normal half-elves
Minsc - normal human ranger...slightly crazy
Nalia - normal human, ex noble
Anomen - normal human fighter/cleric
Keldorn - normal human, paladin
Xan - depressing elf
Mazzy - halfling figher
Jan Jansen - demented gnome inventor
Etc...

Pretty normal races, normal classes, with normal powers.
if there was anything colorfull about them it was their personalities - they didn't have any other gimmicks (like being a magical experiment or somesuch)

And what about others? Drow in human lands, tiefling, fairy elf, lycantrope, Sarevok. And if you look at Planescape: Torment, then every companion is unique and strange and loved by fans for that.

Drow are just dark-skinned elves. A bit rarer sight on the surface, but nothing "unique". Viconia was also a normal cleric.
Thiefling? Who was that? If you mean Haer-Dalis, he's an elf.
Fairy elf? You mean Aeire? She was the most unique character out there and she was still just an elf. Nothing really special about her. She was a normal cleric with normal powers and looks.
Lycanthrope? You mean Cernd? He's a normal human. A druid with shapeshifter specialization. He's not a lycanthrope.

And Planescape is a different game. And one I never finished. Was too strange for me.

[Cultist]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Drow are just dark-skinned elves. A bit rarer sight on the surface, but nothing "unique". Viconia was also a normal cleric.
Thiefling? Who was that? If you mean Haer-Dalis, he's an elf.
Fairy elf? You mean Aeire? She was the most unique character out there and she was still just an elf. Nothing really special about her. She was a normal cleric with normal powers and looks.
Lycanthrope? You mean Cernd? He's a normal human. A druid with shapeshifter specialization. He's not a lycanthrope.

And Planescape is a different game. And one I never finished. Was too strange for me.

Yeah, and Shale is just a dwarf in Golem form, nothing unique, and Justice is just a simple spirit, dragged into material world.
The fact that you never finished Planescape pretty much sums it up that we can't understand each other - we have different approaches and understanding of how game should be made. So I suppose we must agree to disagree.

[Lotion Soronarr]

There's no "just". The difference in examples are huge.

BG characters are unique, but unique in a very different way. They were defined by their character, and not by their special class/powers. They didn't have any actually - neither Aerie or Cernd or whomever posssesed any ability/power or class that the player couldn't also have.

Shale and Justice are something so rare, that no one has seen any in hunders of years. Fenris is a special magical experiment.

There is no comparison betwwen them.


Also, there is no "should be made".
There is "oversatured way of making thing", and it would be nice to get a break from it".

[Cultist]

It worked perfectly with Torment. No reason why it shouldn't in DA3. And I think that a few of companions should be unique, not all of them.

[JohnCena94]

I remeber way back in Jade Empire a girl, I can't recall names it has been a very long time, was posessed by two demons, one good and one bad. You could help the evil one win. To me it was odd, but if they handled it better it wouldn't be a terrible idea. One other thing, it seems as though we may be forced to support the chantry ,so I don't think it will happen in this game.

[thats1evildude]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

So if you're not a special snowflake you're interchangalbe?

Gald you think that your firends and family are all uninteresting clones of eachother.

I don't have to embark on big fantasy adventures or fight monsters with my friends and family. My brother's accounting skills are useful at tax time but less useful at disarming traps, and while my buddies can annihilate a bag of weed pretty quickly, I wouldn't choose them to fight a horde of darkspawn.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 02 septembre 2012 - 02:36 .

[Cultist]

JohnCena94 wrote...
I remeber way back in Jade Empire a girl, I can't recall names it has been a very long time, was posessed by two demons, one good and one bad. You could help the evil one win. To me it was odd, but if they handled it better it wouldn't be a terrible idea. One other thing, it seems as though we may be forced to support the chantry ,so I don't think it will happen in this game.

Technically, Justice turned demon and became Vengerance. So we already have precedent. The difference is timespan, as in case we'll be having option to turn spirit into demon, we have to do it during our game, and Justice may be slowy transforming into demon.

[Lasien]

Cultist wrote...

JohnCena94 wrote...
I remeber way back in Jade Empire a girl, I can't recall names it has been a very long time, was posessed by two demons, one good and one bad. You could help the evil one win. To me it was odd, but if they handled it better it wouldn't be a terrible idea. One other thing, it seems as though we may be forced to support the chantry ,so I don't think it will happen in this game.

Technically, Justice turned demon and became Vengerance. So we already have precedent. The difference is timespan, as in case we'll be having option to turn spirit into demon, we have to do it during our game, and Justice may be slowy transforming into demon.

Actually, technically, he isn't a demon. He's still good, but a more extreme version of justice.

From Webster's Dictionary

Justice: the quality of being just, impartial, or fair

Vengeance: punishment inflicted in retaliation for an injury or offense

He is still technically being just by blowing up the chantry, his justice is just no longer mitigated by mercy - thanks to Anders.

I say he is still being just because technically, everyone in kirkwall - including hawke - is guilty of letting many, many horrible things slide without ever saying a word. Therefore, if a judge was being completely just (and without mercy) they would all suffer for it the same amount.

Modifié par Lasien, 03 septembre 2012 - 07:06 .

[Cultist]

Lasien wrote...
He is still technically being just by blowing up the chantry, his justice is just no longer mitigated by mercy - thanks to Anders.

I say he is still being just because technically, everyone in kirkwall - including hawke - is guilty of letting many, many horrible things slide without ever saying a word. Therefore, if a judge was being completely just (and without mercy) they would all suffer for it the same amount.

Just like Robo-Santa from Futurama. Demon or Spirit is a loose term, after all. Demons simply better defined.

[Lasien]

 You could have a manifest demon that works in a sort of reverse-wynne way.
As I understood it, wynne was not melded with the spirit, the spirit was still in the fade, and was sustaining her. (I might be wrong)
If that is true, you could have a devout andrastian mage who desired to either get rid of his or her powers (a la the praying mage from DAO) , or who had poor control over strong powers and desired to control them (a la a certain half- lf mage in DA2). Interject Desire demon here, and have the desire demon get trapped outside of the fade while trying to prey on the mage because of an accident caused by a mis-fired spell from said mage or the PC' interference.

That would link the two of them so that the demon couldn't possess because the mage has great will, and the mage couldn't use magic without the demon around (similar to what happens with anders' friend when justice is around). They would count as one party member, and would "merge" temporarily while fighting - with the demon turning into an aura perhaps.

Then with conversation, have two separate characters, and two separate sliders - which affect whether the demon stays a demon or transforms (with appropriate physical changes) into a spirit of love. This could also affect the characters interactions - rivalry from mage makes them hate demon, friendship with demon (or certain responses) changes demon to spirit. This could also affect whether the two ever merge permanantly.

You could also have the recruitment mission determine the mages and demons respective genders.  The mage would be determined by whethe the PC says they heard a male or female call for help, and the demon could have no form until the player refers to them by gender. i.e. - "show yourself temptress!" or Where are you, you vile beast"

[Lasien]

Cultist wrote...

Lasien wrote...
He is still technically being just by blowing up the chantry, his justice is just no longer mitigated by mercy - thanks to Anders.

I say he is still being just because technically, everyone in kirkwall - including hawke - is guilty of letting many, many horrible things slide without ever saying a word. Therefore, if a judge was being completely just (and without mercy) they would all suffer for it the same amount.

Just like Robo-Santa from Futurama. Demon or Spirit is a loose term, after all. Demons simply better defined.

Not really, vengeance is simply removing emotion from the verdict.

Revenge would be a demon - that would mean killing anyone who irritated you.

[Cultist]

vengerance tried to kill innocent mage-girl. She had nothing to do with templars, just a bystander before rage-filled Anders-Vengerance. Vengerance could be blind as well as directed.
And we'll have to deal with "temptess" only, as yet we've seen only one female form of Desire Demons. but this could be solved with possession. If, for example, you'll have two mages and decide to make a pact with demon and choose ither female or male body for Demon to possess.

Modifié par Cultist, 03 septembre 2012 - 08:03 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Cultist wrote...

It worked perfectly with Torment. No reason why it shouldn't in DA3. And I think that a few of companions should be unique, not all of them.

Every person is unique. But that kind of uniqueness is too deep for you. You seem to prefer shallow "uniqueness". The type that is extreeme and visual.

[Lasien]

Cultist wrote...

vengerance tried to kill innocent mage-girl. She had nothing to do with templars, just a bystander before rage-filled Anders-Vengerance. Vengerance could be blind as well as directed.
And we'll have to deal with "temptess" only, as yet we've seen only one female form of Desire Demons. but this could be solved with possession. If, for example, you'll have two mages and decide to make a pact with demon and choose ither female or male body for Demon to possess.

Just a side note: demons and spirits don't have a set form - just what they choose to appear as. Thats in the codex. The only reason we don't see male desire demons is because it wouldn't be feasible to have an extra in-game model and new voice acting just for a few encounters.

Going back to my idea, if you wanted to make the demon's gender changeable, then the game designers would just have to have 1 voice actor record two characters.

Also, the problem with your idea for bodies is that the type of possesiong Anders/Justice had required both parties to agree.

[Lotion Soronarr]

thats1evildude wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

So if you're not a special snowflake you're interchangalbe?

Gald you think that your firends and family are all uninteresting clones of eachother.

I don't have to embark on big fantasy adventures or fight monsters with my friends and family. My brother's accounting skills are useful at tax time but less useful at disarming traps, and while my buddies can annihilate a bag of weed pretty quickly, I wouldn't choose them to fight a horde of darkspawn.

Thank you for compeltely missing the point...

And apparently viewing your friends and families as only a collection of skills and ntohing more.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 03 septembre 2012 - 08:23 .

[Lasien]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Cultist wrote...

It worked perfectly with Torment. No reason why it shouldn't in DA3. And I think that a few of companions should be unique, not all of them.

Every person is unique. But that kind of uniqueness is too deep for you. You seem to prefer shallow "uniqueness". The type that is extreeme and visual.

Thank You! Although the problem with that is you would have to have a lot of extra content in order to get to know a normal person  - And the public won't stand for it! They want blood! 

[Cultist]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Every person is unique. But that kind of uniqueness is too deep for you. You seem to prefer shallow "uniqueness". The type that is extreeme and visual.

How making characters unique prevents them to be unique in personality? That was the point of Planescape, every companion was very deep and thoroughly written yet retained their unique looks and differences.

Lasien wrote...
Going back to my idea, if you wanted
to make the demon's gender changeable, then the game designers would
just have to have 1 voice actor record two characters.
Also, the problem with your idea for bodies is that the type of possesiong Anders/Justice had required both parties to agree.

As for me, I prefer to have Desire Demon possess a female body, as demons have their "standart" looks in both games so I'm assuming Desire Demon will look just the same. And because I despise faceless versalite interchangeable all-bisexual, all-accepting companion templates we've seen in Dragon age 2. And Kitty just possessed the body, without accepting or anything, I guess only Spirits require both parties to agree.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Cultist wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Every person is unique. But that kind of uniqueness is too deep for you. You seem to prefer shallow "uniqueness". The type that is extreeme and visual.

How making characters unique prevents them to be unique in personality? That was the point of Planescape, every companion was very deep and thoroughly written yet retained their unique looks and differences.

Meh.
Uniqness of race/state/powers is shallow as it more often then not overshadows the personality traits.
Also, being that super-special race/entity is often the focal point of hte entire character in the first place.

It's a cheap and easy way to make a "interesting and unique" character, as it relies on the player wanting to know more about the super-special race/entity rahter than the personal itself.

[Kidd]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

There's no "just". The difference in examples are huge.

BG characters are unique, but unique in a very different way. They were defined by their character, and not by their special class/powers. They didn't have any actually - neither Aerie or Cernd or whomever posssesed any ability/power or class that the player couldn't also have.

As much as you and I tend to disagree, this seems to be a perspective we share =)

(we both need to go have a second jab at Torment btw, it's supposedly absolutely excellent once you recover from the shock that the first person you talk to is a flying... skull... on fire...?)

Cultist wrote...

As for me, I prefer to have Desire Demon possess a female body, as demons have their "standart" looks in both games so I'm assuming Desire Demon will look just the same. And because I despise faceless versalite interchangeable all-bisexual, all-accepting companion templates we've seen in Dragon age 2.

So because you think anything but monosexuality is a lack of a character trait, and you yourself find yourself being a heterosexual male, you want the NPC to be an almost-nude female catering to you and your biases specifically? Got it.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Meh.
Uniqness of race/state/powers is shallow as it more often then not overshadows the personality traits.
Also, being that super-special race/entity is often the focal point of hte entire character in the first place.

It's a cheap and easy way to make a "interesting and unique" character, as it relies on the player wanting to know more about the super-special race/entity rahter than the personal itself.

I agree with you.

Personality is more important than race/state/powers or appearance. That is why games like DAO, New Vegas, KOTOR II, NWN 2 has better characters than DA2 (:seks-fest of jesters).

[Cultist]

KiddDaBeauty wrote...
So because you think anything but monosexuality is a lack of a character trait, and you yourself find yourself being a heterosexual male, you want the NPC to be an almost-nude female catering to you and your biases specifically? Got it.

Nope. As I said before, ideally, Demon's true form should be shown only in extreme conditions or conversations, or not shown at all. I'm against all-bisexual paries, where everyone is interchangeable as LI for both male and female PC.

[Rawgrim]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Cultist wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Really?

Jaheira and Khalid - fighter and druid, pretty normal half-elves
Minsc - normal human ranger...slightly crazy
Nalia - normal human, ex noble
Anomen - normal human fighter/cleric
Keldorn - normal human, paladin
Xan - depressing elf
Mazzy - halfling figher
Jan Jansen - demented gnome inventor
Etc...

Pretty normal races, normal classes, with normal powers.
if there was anything colorfull about them it was their personalities - they didn't have any other gimmicks (like being a magical experiment or somesuch)

And what about others? Drow in human lands, tiefling, fairy elf, lycantrope, Sarevok. And if you look at Planescape: Torment, then every companion is unique and strange and loved by fans for that.

Drow are just dark-skinned elves. A bit rarer sight on the surface, but nothing "unique". Viconia was also a normal cleric.
Thiefling? Who was that? If you mean Haer-Dalis, he's an elf.
Fairy elf? You mean Aeire? She was the most unique character out there and she was still just an elf. Nothing really special about her. She was a normal cleric with normal powers and looks.
Lycanthrope? You mean Cernd? He's a normal human. A druid with shapeshifter specialization. He's not a lycanthrope.

And Planescape is a different game. And one I never finished. Was too strange for me.

Haer`Dalis is a tiefling, not an elf. Sure looks like an elf, though.

[Lotion Soronarr]

KiddDaBeauty wrote...
(we both need to go have a second jab at Torment btw, it's supposedly absolutely excellent once you recover from the shock that the first person you talk to is a flying... skull... on fire...?)

It's the setting and doom and gloom that turn me off.
I just don't find the abyssal planes interesting. A shame really, as it is a good game.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Rawgrim wrote...
Haer`Dalis is a tiefling, not an elf. Sure looks like an elf, though.

Hmmm....you may be right. It's been a while since my last playtrough, and I only brought him with me once.. A LOONG time ago.

But that is kinda the point. His race was never important. It wasn't focal to his personality.
That's not what conversations with him were about.