16 réponses à ce sujet

[Faust1979]

I've been on and off the forums since 2003 after the release of Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic and I remember the hate on the forums for it. Every since that release every single game has had an up roar of some of the fans that will go on for a few months before people stop caring. Then get angry all over again when a new game comes out. The Mass Effect games are like an anology for these boards a never ending cycle.

[Stanley Woo]

People got angry when NWN came out and it wasn't BG.
People got angry when KotOR came out because it was a console game.
People got angry when Jade Empire came out because it was a different setting, and it was an action RPG.
People got angry when Mass Effect came out because it was a shooter.
People got angry when Dragon Age: Origins came out because it wasn't BG.
People got angry when DA2 came out because it wasn't DAO.
People got angry when ME2 came out because it wasn't ME1.
And now people are angry at ME3.

The cycle will continue as long as people feel they have an inalienable right to never be disappointed, or that their money entitles them to be rude or condescending to others, or that their opinions are the only, best, or right ones.

[Stanley Woo]

camirish1 wrote...

I think you should account for volume when making a claim like this. 
True, people will always moan about something, but I think in the case of ME3, the volume of angry fans about one particular part is unprecedented.

Of course it's unprecedented. Just as when you're growing, each time you grow an inch, your height is unprecedented. We got a ton more people in our community when ME3 was coming up to release. It was only natural that more people would participate in the forums after they got the game.

That doesn't excuse the rudeness, name-calling, insults, accusations and conspiracy theories, though.

And not everyone that is against the ending is rude or condescending.

True, which is why I'm still around and still participating in discussions.But everyone agreed to follow the same rules. Many people can follow those rules withotu any difficulty whatsoever. Some, however, can't.

[Stanley Woo]

Sorry, Eain, but when you throw around phrases like "I understand that you're just trying to exercise some damage control here" and "That's PR speak," I don't have a hope in hell in having a sincere conversation with you. If you're going to dismiss anything that doesn't absolutely agree with you and what you want to hear as "PR speak," you have effectively shut yourself off from listening to what I have to say.

[Stanley Woo]

AndroLeonidas wrote...

It also does not address the WHY it it is unprecedented Stanley. What does it matter that there are tons more fans in the forums now? WHY are they out and about now complaining about the same thing. Perhaps it is because Bioware failed horribly in that respect and those fans feel slighted given what they were led to believe pre-ME3 release. And the fact that continued PR releases and this "Extended Cut" DLC announcement along with the now famous "Artistic Integrity" quote all prove that Bioware is NOT listening to its fans.

oh, well mostly it's that we have gotten so many new fans and new community members that have discovered that BioWare regularly takes an active part in our community and listens to our fan base that they have come in to speak their peace. This is why people feel comfortable freaking out in here and saying what's on their mind. This is why "movements" are created here and why campaigns are started here.

This is also why there appears to be some kind of internal "gang war" here between the Retake movements and the anti-Retake movement, and also between different portions of the Retake movement. Because people are passionate about our games, because they see us as paying attention, some people feel that if they can just say things loudly enough, emphatically enough, or often enough, that we'll get it through our thick skulls that they aren't happy and we'll do anything and everything we can to appease them. Because they paid money, damn it, and they are entitled to satisfaction from the money-grubbing corporation who "lied" to them repeatedly and with malice aforethought just to alienate them!

Some folks still have no idea how and why businesses do what they do, or why BioWare and/or EA communicates the way it does, or how we can "listen" to their concerns and not be forced to fix them as the customer wishes all the time. Based on their posts, some people also have trouble believing that they are not our only customer, and that their concerns are the best, only, and right opinions of the game to have. Of course, many people think that and often have conflicting views, so it's difficult, if not impossible, to please everyone all the time.

It just seems like a great big slap in the face to be honest. You can not clarify major gaffs in a story with more cut scenes and cinematics. I'm sorry. The endings went against everything Bioware said they would be and no matter how you sugarcoat it... you can not change that fact.

And if that's what you believe, than that's your prerogative and I'm not going to try to convince you otherwise. If, on the other hand, you're willing to discuss things, we are available to do so. But we're not going to get very far in discussions if you're goign to beg us for information on the one hand, and distrust everything we say on the other. At some point, you either have to choose to believe us or don't. If you don't believe what we say, then there's no point in discussing things further. If you do believe us, then there's still opportunity to talk.

And if you're going to engage in a little bit of "give-and-take" discussion, you actually have to "give" a little, rather than digging in your heels and expecting us to do nothing but capitulate to all your demands. Despite what some people might tell you, and please forgive the childish tone, but "you're not the boss of us." You do not have veto power, decision-making power, or direction power, over BioWare regardless of how much money you spent on our products or how many bioWare games you've played in your gaming life. Sorry.

I hope that makes things a little clearer.

[Stanley Woo]

Batviper wrote...

But I disagree with one thing; customers are your bosses.Simple as that, because you may not answer to them but you get your pay from your bosses and your bosses get their money from us. Now it's true we can't tell you what to do or anything like that like your bosses in the company do, but in the end we make the decision if you earn money or not.There are a lot of companies out there that had to shut down because people didn't support their games and they ran out of money and saying such things to customers only angers them more.Even though I agree with most of the things you said here I find this one comment to be rude.

We shall have to agree to disagree, Batviper, but I appreciate the comment. It is a sentiment that many people around here share, but it is not one that I support.

[Stanley Woo]

Arcian wrote...

CONSUMER RIGHTS.

You may be corporate doormats who'll let the companies do whatever they want with your money, but don't expect the rest of us to just sit and watch while those snakes step on our rights as consumers and bleed our wallets dry.

None of your rights have been stepped on. The ability to choose whether to purchase or not purchase our products have always been and will always be ultimately up to you. You, as the consumer, have the awesome power, as well as the responsibility to determine for yourself what to buy. No one is taking that away from you.

However, at the same time, no one is guaranteeing you will like, agree with, or be satisfied by the products you buy. I can talk about how awesome ME3 is untilt he cows come home, but the ultimate decision to buy the game is yours and yours alone. no amount of marketing, cajoling, or dance routines by me absolves you of that privilege or responsibility.

Forming an opinion of that product is also your privilege and your responsiblity. Disliking, disagreeing with, or being disappointed by the product is not a violation of your consumer rights, nor is it a personal affront, nor is it a systematic attack on your wallet. That is always the risk you take when you buy something--the risk of not liking it or the risk of it being bad. If you never want to be disappointed, I would recommend not buying things, especially media products or entertainment products. I myself have paid to see movies I didn't like, paid for books I didn't like, and bought games I didn't like. that is the risk I take when I buy things, and as a responsible consumer, I accept that not everything will be to my liking. I also learn from the purchase and try to not buy things I know I won't like. Doesn't always work, but I am very well aware of my responsibilities as a consumer.

Also, I tend to like things that make my friends shake their heads.

[Stanley Woo]

Mad-Max90 wrote...

Look bioware doesn't have to do anything to make people happy, and like all the other businesses that fail to please customers they will fall, it's that easy. There's always another team out there wanting to fill the hole that bioware digs itself. I'll agree with the fact that we are not your boss, but let's face it, if it wasn't for your fans you wouldn't still be here. The money you get comes from EA, but the money they get comes from us, so please remember it's not a good thing to back into a corner and bite the hand that feeds you.

Agreed, but I disagree that making content that people don't like is a "betrayal" or a "lie." We are not looking to please everyone all the time. I mean, okay, sure, that'd be awesome, but we realize that that is an impossible task, given the wide spectrum of gamers represented by our community. But if you want to play it that way, then BioWare has been "failing" due to "not listening to our fans" since 2003! We have "been responsible for the decline of RPGs," contributed to the "death of PC gaming," and "driving away our fans" since my first big project, Neverwinter Nights. Every project, I enter into a discussion much like this with a group of fans who are displeased with the game in one way or another, and every time, I submit similar arguments. And, every time, people say the same thing to me, which boils down to "if you fail to please me, you will fail." And that's the part I disagree with.

I'm not trying to pick a fight or be contrary here. I literally have this (or similar) conversation with parts of our community many times after the release of every product.

[Stanley Woo]

kbct wrote...

Atakuma wrote...

VGchartz estimates 3.4 mullion units sold, of course you aren't going to mention that because it doesn't enforce your argument.

Mr. Woo, how many units have been sold? What is your breakeven? How many returns? What does discounting do to your profit margin?

This one's easy.

Not disclosed.
None of your business.
None of your business.
Mathematically, reduces it, assuming initial cost of production remains constant.

[Stanley Woo]

MrTijger wrote...

Geez, Stanley, with that rap sheet how do you sleep at night!

Science?

Seriously, though, I understand why some people make the comments that they do. I've been in this business 11 years and seen the community side of things for almost that long. I have seen this community through every major release since 2002 and made my share of mistteps, misstatements and been called into a couple of Official Meetings™ regarding stuff I've said or arguments I've been a part of within and with this community.

I would hope that I am seen as somewhat of an authority figure here, and that none of my comments are intended to inflame, insult, belittle, or dismiss people's complaints. What I try to do is to get people to think about what and how they buy things, how they view and respond to marketing, and to encourage them to be more responsible with their consumerism. We developers are open to discussion, but we have to be somewhat on the same playing field in order for us to understand one another.

If we take our community for granted, we won't be able to make the kinds of games they're looking for. If the community takes us for granted, they're going to lose this valuable method of communicating directly with the very people making the games they want to play. I don't want either of those things to happen.

[Stanley Woo]

Icesong wrote...

I'm not trying to pick a fight or be contrary here. I literally have
this (or similar) conversation with parts of our community many times
after the release of every product.

Do you think it's possible then that this is skewing your perspective to why this time it isn't your standard nerdrage? 

Most anything is possible.

[Stanley Woo]

PrussianBlue wrote...

After I saw what Woo wrote here. Really? I mean like, really? This is my goodbye from Bioware. Just wow at that.

With conviction (or capriciousness) like that, how can we hope to have productive discussion, or even argue in good faith?

[Stanley Woo]

addiction21 wrote...

"casual" is nothing but one more of those arbirtary groups people like to use to throw mud at.

By most definitions of the term, I too would be considered a "casual gamer."

[Stanley Woo]

1490 wrote...

Stanley, I'm sure you've been asked this many times already, but I'm just curious: have you seen the ME3 ending, and if so, what is your take on it?

Intentionally not involving myself in such discussion. I don't want my comments taken as any kind of "official" or "more important opinion" over anyone else's. those who agreed with me woulduse my name and status as a validation of their cause, while those who disagreed might see my opinion as an attack on or dismissal of their cause. not playing that game, sorry.

[Stanley Woo]

kbct wrote...

That's an indication this ending controversy is big. I haven't heard any BioWare employee comment on the ending. Or have I? Well, maybe Weekes and it wasn't good.

Or, you know, it'd start new accusations of "PR speak" and us "having to hype the endings because we "know" they're bad." Better to let folks form their own opinions, I think.

[Stanley Woo]

slyguy200 wrote...

PadawanMage71 wrote...

I think there is more rage with the endings with this last game, than with any other game in the history video games COMBINED.

I don't think that Mr. Woo realises that, although he may just be ignorant of it.

Or I disagree with it. The internet heightens emotion and exaggerates quite a lot. I do agree that the situation has prompted BioWare to respond, but "more rage... than with any other game in the history [of] video games COMBINED"? Disagree.

[Stanley Woo]

And I think this thread has run its course. Thanks, everyone.

End of line.