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[Archyyy]

Before prelaunch DA2 I didnt really visit bsn that often but there was nowhere near the amount of backlash on DA:O or even ME2 than with DA2 and ME3. DA2's wasnt as widespread but a lot of people were very angry (for good reason, the game was crap). With ME3 the problem is more concentrated and easier to focus on. With DA2 the game was crap on almost all fronts. Despite some big flaws (like auto dialogue, almost non existant dialogue choices and some other things) the thing that really fails the game is the end. Otherwise the game was very decent.

The ever bigger backlash with recent titles (ME2, DA2 and ME3) is caused by the new direction bioware is taking. Bigger audience, dumbed down games, EA assuming control, consoles and action as focus and so on. The people who used to like bioware games for the things they concentrated on before complain with good reason. Bioware still makes the best characters and some of the best stories out there but their focus is shifting too much for people to not react.

[jtrook]

RocketManSR2 wrote...

lol Should I feel guilty that I enjoyed ME3? That's the feeling I get when I come here now. >.>

You shouldn't, even though I disagree about the endings, ME3 is still very enjoyable. 

[PiEman]

Stanley Woo wrote...

People got angry when NWN came out and it wasn't BG.
People got angry when KotOR came out because it was a console game.
People got angry when Jade Empire came out because it was a different setting, and it was an action RPG.
People got angry when Mass Effect came out because it was a shooter.
People got angry when Dragon Age: Origins came out because it wasn't BG.
People got angry when DA2 came out because it wasn't DAO.
People got angry when ME2 came out because it wasn't ME1.
And now people are angry at ME3.

The cycle will continue as long as people feel they have an inalienable right to never be disappointed, or that their money entitles them to be rude or condescending to others, or that their opinions are the only, best, or right ones.

Nobody donated to a  charity to show the amount of people who were angry about Mass Effect being a shooter.

Not to mention we grew to love those games over time. I still can't see why anybody likes the ME endings at all now, but I really, REALLY doubt most of the people who don't like them now will ever grow to appreciate them. Or the fact that their decisions were ignored. OR the fact that devs knowingly gave false information up to the last week before release, and made false promises in the five years before that...

But thank you, this post has really shown me the complete apathy Bioware employees have for their customers. Enjoy your money.

[DigitalAvatar]

Stanley Woo wrote...

People got angry when NWN came out and it wasn't BG.
People got angry when KotOR came out because it was a console game.
People got angry when Jade Empire came out because it was a different setting, and it was an action RPG.
People got angry when Mass Effect came out because it was a shooter.
People got angry when Dragon Age: Origins came out because it wasn't BG.
People got angry when DA2 came out because it wasn't DAO.
People got angry when ME2 came out because it wasn't ME1.
And now people are angry at ME3.

There's a very, very real difference here. Most people aren't complaining about the game (despite its flaws), most overall impressions are positive... until they get to the ending. That unspeakably godawful atrocity that has singlehandedly united tens of thousands of BioWare's most loyal supporters against it.

Honestly Stanley, if you did feel the ending was terrible and the backlash was warranted would you be free to admit it? I don't think so. Still, thanks for being on the forums and engaging with the community. A lot of the strife could have been avoided if Casey and Mac had done this instead of ducking behind the PR barricades.

[Il Divo]

Stanley Woo wrote...

X-People got angry when NWN came out and it wasn't BG.
People got angry when KotOR came out because it was a console game.
People got angry when Jade Empire came out because it was a different setting, and it was an action RPG.
X-People got angry when Mass Effect came out because it was a shooter.
People got angry when Dragon Age: Origins came out because it wasn't BG.
X-People got angry when DA2 came out because it wasn't DAO.
People got angry when ME2 came out because it wasn't ME1.
X-And now people are angry at ME3.

The cycle will continue as long as people feel they have an inalienable right to never be disappointed, or that their money entitles them to be rude or condescending to others, or that their opinions are the only, best, or right ones.

I put an X next to all the Bioware games I myself didn't enjoy. Hell, I thought BG1 was one of their weaker titles too.
My point in saying this is that in every case you listed where disappointment ensued (DA2, NwN, ME1), I simply said "whatever" and went about my business. Sure, I might have gotten involved in forum discussion and mentioned my disappointment, but I've never found myself interested enough to want to cause change.
 
A bad game I can handle. A bad game most can handle. On the other hand, a dismally bad ending to what was possibly the most ambitious project in gaming is something else. I could hate Neverwinter Nights and still love BG2, hate DA2 and still play DA:O, etc, etc. ME is different, however. Here, we have a trilogy which was largely excellent until the last five minutes, which serves to conclude all the plot threads, at which point it all comes crashing down.

Kind of like if Lord of the Rings ended with aliens appearing out of nowhere and murdering the cast before Frodo could destroy the One Ring. Sure, the journey was great, filled with emotion, and there was alot of fun, but the journey was still undertaken with a destination in mind. And in this case, the destination is terrible.

Modifié par Il Divo, 11 avril 2012 - 03:38 .

[Damien Shepherd]

I don't think he's going to answer guys, for whatever reason Mr Woo seems to be angry or something today and is trivializing a movement that while obviously hurt and angry has been for the most part civilized and is grouping us together in his statement with the very few who act less so.

Now there's been some good posts calling him out on it and just like the other statements/promises other Bioware employee's have made he's nowhere to be seen to defend/retract or apologize for them and we all know how good Bioware is at doing that lately.

But I hope both Bioware and Mr Woo prove me wrong, and if not hey don't worry about it this thread will be buried soon enough and time heals all wounds including the one Bioware's games used to make in mine and many others wallet.

[Terror_K]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Of course it's unprecedented. Just as when you're growing, each time you grow an inch, your height is unprecedented. We got a ton more people in our community when ME3 was coming up to release. It was only natural that more people would participate in the forums after they got the game.

That doesn't excuse the rudeness, name-calling, insults, accusations and conspiracy theories, though.

And what excuses the lies and deception from the other side?

Y'know... stuff like "your choices will really matter" and "the endings will reflect your choices and not just be A, B, or C" and "ME3 will be the most diverse of the trilogy because we can go nuts with the final part with nowhere to go" and "you're not just trying to find some Reaper Off-button", etc.

Modifié par Terror_K, 11 avril 2012 - 03:46 .

[jtrook]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Sorry, Eain, but when you throw around phrases like "I understand that you're just trying to exercise some damage control here" and "That's PR speak," I don't have a hope in hell in having a sincere conversation with you. If you're going to dismiss anything that doesn't absolutely agree with you and what you want to hear as "PR speak," you have effectively shut yourself off from listening to what I have to say.

I understand your frustation at our more vocal and less civil member. Yet with that said, there is a lot of people who are not fans of the ending. While your argument about the growth of popularity of Bioware has some contribution there is still the fact it is SOO wide spread. Also I understand that some of us can be hard to handle and down right infuriating but you need ignore those that just unfairly attack BW but making a statement such as "I don't have a hope in hell in having a sincere conversation with you", even aimed at someone else, gives the feeling that you will just will shut down on us, even those that maintain civility ( I hope that is a word).

[Kanner]

Magnitude matters. And this isn't going away.

[InvincibleHero]

I think BW fans have the highest expectations and are prone to nitpicking small parts of games. Evereything cannot be perfect if it was every dev would follow the magic formula and make hit games everyone will love.

They expect to get more of their demands met because BW has actually bent over backwards for them. This attitude of more entitlment will have a negatvie backlash eventually when BW gets fed up with it. Most devs give the fans very little and stifle dissent rather quickly. BW lets people vent and have their say unless they get really out of hand.

How many of you railing on the endings have made threads praising the parts you did like? No that would be selling out your rage cheaply I guess. You can only dwell on the small part you disliked and can;t let go. You can't admit the product was worthwhile or even that BW can't fix it with a free DLC but magically they could if they made a paid one giving you a new ending you wanted. Funny how that works.

Even with the flaws that were present in each of the games I played I prefer the BW brand to all else. All games have flaws and are short of perfection. Their stable of games stands with any company's slate. They are dedicated professionals making entertainment for other people. Many have lost sight of this.

[Lucy Glitter]

InvincibleHero wrote...

I think BW fans have the highest expectations and are prone to nitpicking small parts of games. Evereything cannot be perfect if it was every dev would follow the magic formula and make hit games everyone will love.

They expect to get more of their demands met because BW has actually bent over backwards for them. This attitude of more entitlment will have a negatvie backlash eventually when BW gets fed up with it. Most devs give the fans very little and stifle dissent rather quickly. BW lets people vent and have their say unless they get really out of hand.

How many of you railing on the endings have made threads praising the parts you did like? No that would be selling out your rage cheaply I guess. You can only dwell on the small part you disliked and can;t let go. You can't admit the product was worthwhile or even that BW can't fix it with a free DLC but magically they could if they made a paid one giving you a new ending you wanted. Funny how that works.

Even with the flaws that were present in each of the games I played I prefer the BW brand to all else. All games have flaws and are short of perfection. Their stable of games stands with any company's slate. They are dedicated professionals making entertainment for other people. Many have lost sight of this.

Thank you.

[mauro2222]

InvincibleHero wrote...

I think BW fans have the highest expectations and are prone to nitpicking small parts of games.

You lost me there.

[NickelToe]

InvincibleHero wrote...

I think BW fans have the highest expectations and are prone to nitpicking small parts of games. Evereything cannot be perfect if it was every dev would follow the magic formula and make hit games everyone will love.

They expect to get more of their demands met because BW has actually bent over backwards for them. This attitude of more entitlment will have a negatvie backlash eventually when BW gets fed up with it. Most devs give the fans very little and stifle dissent rather quickly. BW lets people vent and have their say unless they get really out of hand.

How many of you railing on the endings have made threads praising the parts you did like? No that would be selling out your rage cheaply I guess. You can only dwell on the small part you disliked and can;t let go. You can't admit the product was worthwhile or even that BW can't fix it with a free DLC but magically they could if they made a paid one giving you a new ending you wanted. Funny how that works.

Even with the flaws that were present in each of the games I played I prefer the BW brand to all else. All games have flaws and are short of perfection. Their stable of games stands with any company's slate. They are dedicated professionals making entertainment for other people. Many have lost sight of this.

I like games that have replay value.  Multiplayer is not replay value for me especially when it does not even matter if you maxed it to a 100% then went through the ending.  The ending kills the replay value since there is really nothing new to see from one ending to another.

ME2 had lots of options with varying crew members dieing and Shepherd could too so playing through doing different things meant for lots of replays.

ME3 is play once, facepalm them hit youtube up for the other 2 colors which are almost identical.  Forget that they added in new concepts and characters at 5 minutes before credits and 1 minute before, but simply there is one ending with 3 different colors.  Not worth replaying.  The idea was to get people playing Multiplayer and not be "price aware" as they fork out money after each match to buy Spectre packs faster than they can earn them.

So the plotholes and flaws aside, the game loses a lot when there is nothing different between playthroughs. 

[Terror_K]

InvincibleHero wrote...

Even with the flaws that were present in each of the games I played I prefer the BW brand to all else. All games have flaws and are short of perfection. Their stable of games stands with any company's slate. They are dedicated professionals making entertainment for other people. Many have lost sight of this.

I at least agree with the thing you said in bold: they making entertainment for other people. Yep... to much concern for growing the brand and spreading their fanbase, not enough for those who got them where they were.

Take the face import issue alone. That should not only have never happened in the first place and needed a patch, but we've also found out that certain Shepard facial feature options are just plain absent from the third game entirely, meaning some people will NEVER be able to recreate their Shepards in ME3 unless they completely overhaul the CC entirely, and the chance of them doing that seems pretty unlikely.

Then there's the endings, which despite all claims of not just being A, B and C quite frankly are just that. The fact that none of our choices really mattered and were cosmetic at best, and mostly just resulted in being used to fill stupid number in the final game so you can get it not quite high enough to get the best ending without multiplayer.

[InvincibleHero]

mauro2222 wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...

I think BW fans have the highest expectations and are prone to nitpicking small parts of games.

You lost me there.

The ending is a small part of the game about .6666% based on ten minutes out of 25 hours.

[mauro2222]

InvincibleHero wrote...

The ending is a small part of the game about .6666% based on ten minutes out of 25 hours.

The ending... E N D I N G

Such a small part...

Modifié par mauro2222, 11 avril 2012 - 04:26 .

[InvincibleHero]

Terror_K wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...

Even with the flaws that were present in each of the games I played I prefer the BW brand to all else. All games have flaws and are short of perfection. Their stable of games stands with any company's slate. They are dedicated professionals making entertainment for other people. Many have lost sight of this.

I at least agree with the thing you said in bold: they making entertainment for other people. Yep... to much concern for growing the brand and spreading their fanbase, not enough for those who got them where they were.

Take the face import issue alone. That should not only have never happened in the first place and needed a patch, but we've also found out that certain Shepard facial feature options are just plain absent from the third game entirely, meaning some people will NEVER be able to recreate their Shepards in ME3 unless they completely overhaul the CC entirely, and the chance of them doing that seems pretty unlikely.

Then there's the endings, which despite all claims of not just being A, B and C quite frankly are just that. The fact that none of our choices really mattered and were cosmetic at best, and mostly just resulted in being used to fill stupid number in the final game so you can get it not quite high enough to get the best ending without multiplayer.

See I don't get that at all. I expect there to be changes game to game or they will be stagnant. I can understand if you do not like the changes but to expect them to make them one certain way is self-defeating. I keep a broad mind and buy games I feel will satsify me. IF you feel BW no longer does then why belabor the obvious? They are not going to cater to just one fan. they have to do what they feel will be the best use of their resources.

I agree the face import bug is serious and needs fixing.

The ending is probably tight to make people buy DLC and play multi. It is no worse than tight credits in ME2. DLC got you lots more credits and upgrades making the game easier. Is that better? IMO no just appicable to me.

[InvincibleHero]

mauro2222 wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...

The ending is a small part of the game about .6666% based on ten minutes out of 25 hours.

The ending... E N D I N G

Such a small part...

Put in proper perspective yes. It does not invalidate the enjoyment up till then despite many protestations otherwise on these baodrs. You cannot retoractively remove the joy from your life so people are just doing one upmanship for virtual backslaps from like minded individuals.

[Terror_K]

Also, to draw attention to this from Stanley:

Stanley Woo wrote...

People got angry when NWN came out and it wasn't BG.
People got angry when KotOR came out because it was a console game.
People got angry when Jade Empire came out because it was a different setting, and it was an action RPG.
People got angry when Mass Effect came out because it was a shooter.
People got angry when Dragon Age: Origins came out because it wasn't BG.
People got angry when DA2 came out because it wasn't DAO.
People got angry when ME2 came out because it wasn't ME1.
And now people are angry at ME3.

Personally, the only games I've got angry about on that list are the last three. Funnily enough, not what Stanley says about why people got angry about them: "because they weren't they're direct predecessor" essentially.

I really enjoyed NWN, KotOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect and DAO, despite the reasons Stanley lists. With ME2, DA2 and ME3 one of the major flaws is that they aren't enough like the game that preceded them directly and are supposed to be part of the same IP and series. This is the problem, IMO: that BioWare just can't seem to do sequels anymore without messing with the formula too much.

NWN wasn't BG, but it wasn't supposed to be. KotOR was a console game, but was designed that way. Jade Empire was supposed to have a different setting and be an action RPG. ME1 was supposed to be... well, not a shooter per se, but an Action RPG with TPS combat mechanics. DAO wasn't supposed to be BG.

Mass Effect 2 is supposed to be a follow-up to Mass Effect 1 though. DA2 is supposed to be a follow-up to DAO. ME3 is supposed to be a follow-up to both prior Mass Effect titles. But BioWare just changed the formula too much in these cases. At first I was kind of annoyed that Obsidian did KotoR 2 and NWN 2 instead of BioWare, but to be honest... I'm kind of glad they did now, despite the bugs and other small flaws. Their sequels at least felt like proper follow-ups to the original formula. ME2&3 and DA2 also feel like the changes were made more for the sake of expanding the audience and for profit rather than because said changes were actually better for the style of the gameplay.

[Korubrus]

InvincibleHero wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...

I think BW fans have the highest expectations and are prone to nitpicking small parts of games.

You lost me there.

The ending is a small part of the game about .6666% based on ten minutes out of 25 hours.

Volume is it only a small part. But it is the most important part. 
Its the part which is supposed to show us what our choices did to the world of Mass Effect. How we changed and effected the world.

The ending showed us the rest of the game and many hours invested and money invested was absolutely irrelevant. I could have killed everyone except me and a couple of other people in ME2 - and the endings would be no different.
I'd pick ending A (Control) B (Synthesis) or C (Destroy) and watch the generic ending with one of three colours. Yay, since 2007 everything is leading to this moment... Then you get a generic "One size fits all" ending which goes against the whole franchise.

The ending was a lazy 'One size fits all" job. Its something I would expect from someone so over their job that they just dont care anymore.
It wouldn't be impossible to consider 3 completely different endings, and different ways to get to that ending.
Let alone 2 endings that alter atleast more than the colour of lights.

Modifié par Korubrus, 11 avril 2012 - 04:38 .

[InvincibleHero]

NickelToe wrote...

I like games that have replay value.  Multiplayer is not replay value for me especially when it does not even matter if you maxed it to a 100% then went through the ending.  The ending kills the replay value since there is really nothing new to see from one ending to another.

ME2 had lots of options with varying crew members dieing and Shepherd could too so playing through doing different things meant for lots of replays.

ME3 is play once, facepalm them hit youtube up for the other 2 colors which are almost identical.  Forget that they added in new concepts and characters at 5 minutes before credits and 1 minute before, but simply there is one ending with 3 different colors.  Not worth replaying.  The idea was to get people playing Multiplayer and not be "price aware" as they fork out money after each match to buy Spectre packs faster than they can earn them.

So the plotholes and flaws aside, the game loses a lot when there is nothing different between playthroughs. 

Sorry you feel no replay value. I love the MP despite not playing much MP games previously. I will take each of my six Shepard through to find out how each class plays and different crew combinations and each of the chocies play out. I think mostly will be red though. Green will be checked out ,but retconned out of existence by me. 

I could not bring myself to kill them due to ineptitude. I did play once without upgrades to see the death scenes then reloaded after.

[mauro2222]

InvincibleHero wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...

The ending is a small part of the game about .6666% based on ten minutes out of 25 hours.

The ending... E N D I N G

Such a small part...

Put in proper perspective yes. It does not invalidate the enjoyment up till then despite many protestations otherwise on these baodrs. You cannot retoractively remove the joy from your life so people are just doing one upmanship for virtual backslaps from like minded individuals.

That's your opinion and in fact "proper perspective" it's very subjective.
The ending made ME1 and well, actually ME3 as a whole made ME2 pointless... not my point. It ruined replayability for me, and that's my opinion. The ending it's the most important part of the story, the game is about choices and the ending doesn't reflect one.

[XTR3M3]

I laugh when I see "people complained about DAO"...that was a good game with a GOOD ending. the people that complained about DOA were the "small vocal minority" people accuse the ME3 ending haters. I LOVED the KOTOR stuff with the exception of KOTOR2 ending sucked...see a pattern?...and the fact that KOTOR seemed to be at least a trilogy and EAware never finished it.

DA2 blew and people were disappointed because EAware deviated from what was good in DAO....see another pattern? There was no where near the uproar that screwing with the formula of the Mass Effect universe and using a plastic screw as the final piece of the ROLEX quality experience that was ME.

Trying to compare the ME3 screwed up ending to DAO or KOTOR problems is just ridiculous. that is like comparing a firecracker to an H-bomb.

It has been well documented how an ending can invalidate an entire series. we have seen this across multiple mediums from books to TV series like LOST.

Modifié par XTR3M3, 11 avril 2012 - 04:37 .

[mauro2222]

XTR3M3 wrote...

Snip

Love your sig!