713 réponses à ce sujet

[streetmark]

Stanley Woo wrote...

camirish1 wrote...

I think you should account for volume when making a claim like this. 
True, people will always moan about something, but I think in the case of ME3, the volume of angry fans about one particular part is unprecedented.

Of course it's unprecedented. Just as when you're growing, each time you grow an inch, your height is unprecedented. We got a ton more people in our community when ME3 was coming up to release. It was only natural that more people would participate in the forums after they got the game.

That doesn't excuse the rudeness, name-calling, insults, accusations and conspiracy theories, though.

I'm sorry Stanley but that is an extremely bad comparison. ME3's ending rage is not comparable to the 'growing pains of the other franchises. DA2 sucked but fans didn't raise 80k for the children, nor did the fans raise it after ME2 switched to ammo. But fans did raise it after IP murder.

And in regards to your comments about PR speak, you cannot fault people on the board for being extremely skeptical of anyone that has the BIOWARE logo near their name. Not after a month plus of duplicitous PR stunts, condescending announcements, the garbage of PAX's Q&A and finally saying nothing as the gaming 'journalists' insulted your fanbase. 

[Terror_K]

AndroLeonidas wrote...

Please direct me to where anyone has said that destroying the Relays, regardless of how, does not destroy the system it is in. This was established in Arrival and no one from Bioware has debunked this "canon"

Actually, to be fair, Patrick Weekes has:-

From social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/11154234/1

-Did the mass relays pull an Arrival and go supernova?

No, they didn't. (i'm paraphrasing here, please don't interpret this too hard) They overloaded, they didn't rupture. We really didn't mean to imply that the whole galaxy had been destroyed.

People interpreted the ending in ways we really didn't expect.

Modifié par Terror_K, 11 avril 2012 - 06:18 .

[AndroLeonidas]

streetmark wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

camirish1 wrote...

I think you should account for volume when making a claim like this. 
True, people will always moan about something, but I think in the case of ME3, the volume of angry fans about one particular part is unprecedented.

Of course it's unprecedented. Just as when you're growing, each time you grow an inch, your height is unprecedented. We got a ton more people in our community when ME3 was coming up to release. It was only natural that more people would participate in the forums after they got the game.

That doesn't excuse the rudeness, name-calling, insults, accusations and conspiracy theories, though.

I'm sorry Stanley but that is an extremely bad comparison. ME3's ending rage is not comparable to the 'growing pains of the other franchises. DA2 sucked but fans didn't raise 80k for the children, nor did the fans raise it after ME2 switched to ammo. But fans did raise it after IP murder.

And in regards to your comments about PR speak, you cannot fault people on the board for being extremely skeptical of anyone that has the BIOWARE logo near their name. Not after a month plus of duplicitous PR stunts, condescending announcements, the garbage of PAX's Q&A and finally saying nothing as the gaming 'journalists' insulted your fanbase. 

It also does not address the WHY it it is unprecedented Stanley. What does it matter that there are tons more fans in the forums now? WHY are they out and about now complaining about the same thing. Perhaps it is because Bioware failed horribly in that respect and those fans feel slighted given what they were led to believe pre-ME3 release. And the fact that continued PR releases and this "Extended Cut" DLC announcement along with the now famous "Artistic Integrity" quote all prove that Bioware is NOT listening to its fans.

It just seems like a great big slap in the face to be honest. You can not clarify major gaffs in a story with more cut scenes and cinematics. I'm sorry. The endings went against everything Bioware said they would be and no matter how you sugarcoat it... you can not change that fact.

[AndroLeonidas]

Terror_K wrote...

AndroLeonidas wrote...

Please direct me to where anyone has said that destroying the Relays, regardless of how, does not destroy the system it is in. This was established in Arrival and no one from Bioware has debunked this "canon"

Actually, to be fair, Patrick Weekes has:-

From social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/11154234/1

-Did the mass relays pull an Arrival and go supernova?

No, they didn't. (i'm paraphrasing here, please don't interpret this too hard) They overloaded, they didn't rupture. We really didn't mean to imply that the whole galaxy had been destroyed.

People interpreted the ending in ways we really didn't expect.

Thanks for that Terror. Never saw that.

That statement aside... how else were we suppose to interpret it?

[AlanC9]

AndroLeonidas wrote...
Please direct me to where anyone has said that destroying the Relays, regardless of how, does not destroy the system it is in. This was established in Arrival and no one from Bioware has debunked this "canon"

The relays supernova if you hit them with an asteroid, yep. What happens when you use a Crucible on them isn't established anywhere -- obviously not, because it's never happened in the entire history of the universe until Shepard uses the Crucible at the end of ME3.

Anyway, see this thread -- which , regrettably, is not a primary source. Money quote (and ninja'd by Terror_K):

We really didn't mean to imply that the whole galaxy had been destroyed. People interpreted the ending in ways we really didn't expect 

How long are the Live Ships suppose to sustain their population and the Turians when things were problematic for the Quarians at best. Sooner or later... the added burden of thousands of Turians will have a negative effect. 

This is silly. The quarian fleet -- which had been able to feed itself for centuries -- had a population of 17 million. There's no way that the turians in Sol system are more than a rounding error against that number.

As for everyone else... Earth is a burning hulk of a planet. How exactly is it suppose to sustain hundreds of thousands of survivors, not to mention hundreds of thousands of additional humans in their fleet as well as probably an equal number of Krogans who went to Earth.

The cities are burning, yep. Last time i checked the food doesn't come from there.

Anyway, the fleets are, again, a rounding error compared to the 11 billion inhabitants of the planet. If there is starvation, the fleets have nothing to do with it and neither do the endings; that was just the inevitable situation from the prologue on.

You can't refuse him... you have A, B or C. All the same no matter what. Just different colors. 

Sure, you can refuse. Just don't do any of those things. You never tried?

Modifié par AlanC9, 11 avril 2012 - 06:32 .

[Tazzmission]

op i only rage when fans go to extreme measures to make a point

i still am a fan of bioware through and through

[AndroLeonidas]

AlanC9 wrote...

AndroLeonidas wrote...
Please direct me to where anyone has said that destroying the Relays, regardless of how, does not destroy the system it is in. This was established in Arrival and no one from Bioware has debunked this "canon"

The relays supernova if you hit them with an asteroid, yep. What happens when you use a Crucible on them isn't established anywhere -- obviously not, because it's never happened in the entire history of the universe until Shepard uses the Crucible at the end of ME3.

Anyway, see this thread -- which , regrettably, is not a primary source. Money quote (and ninja'd by Terror_K):

We really didn't mean to imply that the whole galaxy had been destroyed. People interpreted the ending in ways we really didn't expect 

How long are the Live Ships suppose to sustain their population and the Turians when things were problematic for the Quarians at best. Sooner or later... the added burden of thousands of Turians will have a negative effect. 

This is silly. The quarian fleet -- which had been able to feed itself for centuries -- had a population of 17 million. There's no way that the turians in Sol system are more than a rounding error against that number.

As for everyone else... Earth is a burning hulk of a planet. How exactly is it suppose to sustain hundreds of thousands of survivors, not to mention hundreds of thousands of additional humans in their fleet as well as probably an equal number of Krogans who went to Earth.

The cities are burning, yep. Last time i checked the food doesn't come from there.

Anyway, the fleets are, again, a rounding error compared to the 11 billion inhabitants of the planet. If there is starvation, the fleets have nothing to do with it and neither do the endings; that was just the inevitable situation from the prologue on.

You can't refuse him... you have A, B or C. All the same no matter what. Just different colors. 

Sure, you can refuse. Just don't do any of those things. You never tried?

Yeah saw that from Patrick... however it is still a glaring mistake that was not prempted before people finished ME3... yet they knew about it.

Quarians... speaking from a strictly military standpoint... I'm quite sure the Quarian fleet that went to Earth did not include all of the Quarian Live ships, because all 17 million Quarians did not go. Most of the Quarian Fleet was civilian ships... or at least one third of it. And as stated by Tali in ME1... things were not all rosey in the Flotilla. They had to struggle with all kinds of problems, including food shortages if I'm not mistaken. I may be... but I think I heard her say that in one of the convos with her.

I'm going based on the Take Earth Back trailer... where you see the little girl in the big wheat field or corn field or whatever... and then when we see Shepard and Ashly... it is a burned out waste. Why do you assume the destruction wa slimited ot the cities. As for your 11 billion people... according to the sniper in the tower... 7 million dead the first day... almost the same the second. I am assuming again that the number of dead did not drastically drop per day and we know it has been at least six weeks from beginning to end of game if not more so your 11 billion number doesn't wash.

Just don't do what he says? Excuse me if I sound dense... do you mean just stop playing the game at that point? That would be th eonly way not to have to choose A, B or C. I think. Unless you know of another way.

[Fasty1]

Terror_K you talk too much, its a game for christ sake. Sorry you spent 5 years of your life on something that gets you no where in life.

[AndroLeonidas]

Fasty1 wrote...

Terror_K you talk too much, its a game for christ sake. Sorry you spent 5 years of your life on something that gets you no where in life.

That is not called for.

[jbrand2002uk]

Having played Mass Effect 3 on a friends PC all i can say is the ending is bad beyond words effectively making playing 1 and 2 pointless to sum up in the words of Joe cartoons donkey bong long

Devoid of any moral compass, the plot had all kinds of holes in it, absolutely zero standout performances, I'm giving this one 2 Thumbs down and a fart

[BlacJAC74]

AndroLeonidas wrote...

Fasty1 wrote...

Terror_K you talk too much, its a game for christ sake. Sorry you spent 5 years of your life on something that gets you no where in life.

That is not called for.

Where does a game get you in life?

[FDrage]

BlackJ and Fasty1 ... here have a cookie

if you are part of the wider gaming industry with its multi billion business it brings you a great deal somewhere in life ... specifically if you are an Artist.

[Terror_K]

Fasty1 wrote...

Terror_K you talk too much, its a game for christ sake. Sorry you spent 5 years of your life on something that gets you no where in life.

It's not supposed to get me anywhere in life: it's a game, it's supposed to be fun and entertaining. Games are supposed to make you forget about the frustrations and pressures of everyday life, such as work, taxes, personal issues, etc.

Supposed to.

And that's the problem in the end. It's supposed to be fun, but isn't. It's frustrating and annoying, because of all the lies I was told, the inconsistency of the series and the half-assed job of the final part. A game should never frustrate you for years and make you feel like you've wasted your life.

It's basically like getting a job where you're told by the boss at the start, "you're definitely going to go places and become rich within 5 years in this job" and then find out 6-7 years later that you're essentially in the same place as you were when you started and the boss just lied to you about promotions and pay rises the entire time, while constantly teasing you and assuring you that they were in the cards. Then your contract is over, and you get kicked to the curb without so much as a thank you.

I have never, never felt like a game or game series has wasted my life as much as I have with the Mass Effect series after ME3 came along. In fact, I've never felt like a game or game series had wasted my time at all until after ME3 came along. 13+ playthroughs through ME1, all designed to be different to varying degrees due to promises of choices mattering over a trilogy, and almost half of those taken into ME2, sometimes multiple times in both games. All for nothing because in the end it just doesn't matter in the end.

Oh sure... we can't directly bash developers or publishers on these forums because it's against the forum rules because it's insulting, but it's perfectly all right for BioWare to insult those who have been with the series since the start with Mass Effect 3. The whole thing is nothing but an insult to anybody who listened to their BS about choices and consequences, about this being the culmination of all that and about them going nuts with the final part. Instead all we got is a linear, choice-free experience with its priorities totally messed up and/or misdirected, all topped off with reducing all our choices to nothing but a shallow, impersonal counter to feed a finale that had no real bearing on our prior choices and is just an arbitrary A, B, or C choice.

Games are supposed to relieve stress, not cause it.

Modifié par Terror_K, 11 avril 2012 - 02:05 .

[Mclouvins]

Arcian wrote...

BioWare is giving away free DLC, which is very respectable, but that would never have happened if the endings had been well-received, and just shows BioWare realizes they have done something wrong with the game's endings - so why can't the devs just be open about it and admit that something went wrong and explain why it did. Any explanation is good, really - we just want BioWare to communicate with us beyond "Oh the response makes us sad but look at these 10/10 reviews".

Does it really matter with just about everyone and everything arranged against the endings and the changes being made. It's at the point where if this whole thing was a basketball game it would be like playing at home with the whole crowd and all of the announcers rooting for you but getting upset because some kid in the tenth row won't stop chewing gum.

They're taking action which is the more important thing. The only reason that people want them to actually make a statement is for self-validation or to go start flame wars. It was the same thing initially with the ending would have been so much better with Drew crowd where they wound up emailing him expecting him to basically throw people he worked with in in front of a bus fo the sake of the "fans". Even there the only thing that would have done would have been validating people's belieft that the current staff ruined the game and of course being used as a way to attack the team on the internet.

[Terror_K]

To be honest, what would be the point of a promise and additional communication from BioWare right now. They lied to us about our choices mattering, about there not just being a "Reaper off-button" MacGuffin, about ME3 being really diverse because its the last part, about the endings reflecting our choices and not just being an A, B and C choice, etc.

Why would we suddenly just trust them now... after all that?

On top of that, they say, "we're listening" but given that we're not even getting new endings at all, but just more explanation on the endings we already have, they're clearly not really listening at all. We want better endings, not just to have the existing crap ones drawn out and explained more, with perhaps a bit of Spackle on some of the major plot holes. That's the equivalent of instead of just saying, "and the children were saved by, oh... let's say... Moe" we go into the details of how Moe saved the children. Drawing it out doesn't make it better... if anything, it makes it worse.

[crazyrabbits]

Stanley Woo wrote...

The cycle will continue as long as people feel they have an inalienable right to never be disappointed, or that their money entitles them to be rude or condescending to others, or that their opinions are the only, best, or right ones.

This is a bit of a disingenous post, sir. Not to mention it feels like you're trying to trivialize the RME movement. I could be wrong.

There's always backlash from people who want more of the "same old". That should be expected. I never saw nearly as much of the same uprising as with the last two games produced from your company, sir.

Stanley Woo wrote...

People got angry when DA2 came out because it wasn't DAO.

It's more like they got angry due to a litany of problems, not the least of which was a short ending that seemed to be a thinly-veiled advertisement to buy more DLC to continue the story. Then there were the copy-and-pasted environments, the complaints about how almost all the DA:O elements were jettisoned in favor of a new group of characters with little of the same qualities, the fact that it was criticized as a barely-marginal hack-and-slash that paled in comparison to many other games, etc, etc.

I bought the game, and I enjoyed it, but I was part of the minority.

Stanley Woo wrote...

People got angry when ME2 came out because it wasn't ME1.

This is true, but it had more to do with the changing of the weapon systems and the pre-release hysteria about making more "Gears of War" than anything else. The post-release feedback had nowhere near the level of venom, and I distinctly remember there was a lot of good discussion going on at the time (which is part of the reason why I joined the BSN in the first place).

Stanley Woo wrote...

And now people are angry at ME3.

That's trivializing it. If the game (and your company) wasn't being dragged through the mud in business publications, gaming blogs, major news organizations and your hardcore fanbase, would you still just pass it off as people being "angry"?

I've never seen the level of backlash leveled at this game. Part of it was the ending, but part of it was the way your company handled the situation. We're at a time in our age where people won't be jerked around by PR speak and doubletalk - the whole SOPA/PIPA backlash should be enough to prove this point. It took weeks of bad press and a splintering of the hardcore fanbase for TPTB to finally come out and say anything close to a statement resembling actual dialogue.

As a result, it's alienated a lot of people, myself included. I haven't bought the game because of it.

[Torrible]

Terror_K wrote...

Fasty1 wrote...

Terror_K you talk too much, its a game for christ sake. Sorry you spent 5 years of your life on something that gets you no where in life.

It's not supposed to get me anywhere in life: it's a game, it's supposed to be fun and entertaining. Games are supposed to make you forget about the frustrations and pressures of everyday life, such as work, taxes, personal issues, etc.

Supposed to.

And that's the problem in the end. It's supposed to be fun, but isn't. It's frustrating and annoying, because of all the lies I was told, the inconsistency of the series and the half-assed job of the final part. A game should never frustrate you for years and make you feel like you've wasted your life.

It's basically like getting a job where you're told by the boss at the start, "you're definitely going to go places and become rich within 5 years in this job" and then find out 6-7 years later that you're essentially in the same place as you were when you started and the boss just lied to you about promotions and pay rises the entire time, while constantly teasing you and assuring you that they were in the cards. Then your contract is over, and you get kicked to the curb without so much as a thank you.

I have never, never felt like a game or game series has wasted my life as much as I have with the Mass Effect series after ME3 came along. In fact, I've never felt like a game or game series had wasted my time at all until after ME3 came along. 13+ playthroughs through ME1, all designed to be different to varying degrees due to promises of choices mattering over a trilogy, and almost half of those taken into ME2, sometimes multiple times in both games. All for nothing because in the end it just doesn't matter in the end.

Oh sure... we can't directly bash developers or publishers on these forums because it's against the forum rules because it's insulting, but it's perfectly all right for BioWare to insult those who have been with the series since the start with Mass Effect 3. The whole thing is nothing but an insult to anybody who listened to their BS about choices and consequences, about this being the culmination of all that and about them going nuts with the final part. Instead all we got is a linear, choice-free experience with its priorities totally messed up and/or misdirected, all topped off with reducing all our choices to nothing but a shallow, impersonal counter to feed a finale that had no real bearing on our prior choices and is just an arbitrary A, B, or C choice.

Games are supposed to relieve stress, not cause it.

The game didn't cause stress for you. You did it to yourself with your unhealthy expectations of what a game should provide. No one who plays a game to relieve stress compares it to jobs, promotions or getting fired. Maybe you should consider games that offer no possibility of upsetting you and stick to them.

Modifié par Torrible, 11 avril 2012 - 02:58 .

[Cainne Chapel]

Well Stanley IS right to an extent. Whenever there IS change people will complain.

A lot wont, but a lot will because something, ANYTHING, isn't to their expectations or liking. Not a whole lot one can do about that.

As for the ending. I'm surprised myself that they didn't see SOME backlash coming with an ending that offered next to NO closure for friends and allies and came somewhat out of left field.

The crucible and whatever I can deal with, but its a bit silly that they didn't expect anyone to be upset about not knowing what would happen to the crew and allies we spent 3 games getting to know.

Thats what really gets me. Granted it seems i'm in the minority of the minority of the vocal crowd in that the ending itself doesn't bother me, I just want proper closure.

If we can get it in DA:O and even DA2, Why not ME3? Especially if this is the last game I'm going to see the crew and allies in this state?

[Cainne Chapel]

Torrible wrote...

Terror_K wrote...

Fasty1 wrote...

Terror_K you talk too much, its a game for christ sake. Sorry you spent 5 years of your life on something that gets you no where in life.

It's not supposed to get me anywhere in life: it's a game, it's supposed to be fun and entertaining. Games are supposed to make you forget about the frustrations and pressures of everyday life, such as work, taxes, personal issues, etc.

Supposed to.

And that's the problem in the end. It's supposed to be fun, but isn't. It's frustrating and annoying, because of all the lies I was told, the inconsistency of the series and the half-assed job of the final part. A game should never frustrate you for years and make you feel like you've wasted your life.

It's basically like getting a job where you're told by the boss at the start, "you're definitely going to go places and become rich within 5 years in this job" and then find out 6-7 years later that you're essentially in the same place as you were when you started and the boss just lied to you about promotions and pay rises the entire time, while constantly teasing you and assuring you that they were in the cards. Then your contract is over, and you get kicked to the curb without so much as a thank you.

I have never, never felt like a game or game series has wasted my life as much as I have with the Mass Effect series after ME3 came along. In fact, I've never felt like a game or game series had wasted my time at all until after ME3 came along. 13+ playthroughs through ME1, all designed to be different to varying degrees due to promises of choices mattering over a trilogy, and almost half of those taken into ME2, sometimes multiple times in both games. All for nothing because in the end it just doesn't matter in the end.

Oh sure... we can't directly bash developers or publishers on these forums because it's against the forum rules because it's insulting, but it's perfectly all right for BioWare to insult those who have been with the series since the start with Mass Effect 3. The whole thing is nothing but an insult to anybody who listened to their BS about choices and consequences, about this being the culmination of all that and about them going nuts with the final part. Instead all we got is a linear, choice-free experience with its priorities totally messed up and/or misdirected, all topped off with reducing all our choices to nothing but a shallow, impersonal counter to feed a finale that had no real bearing on our prior choices and is just an arbitrary A, B, or C choice.

Games are supposed to relieve stress, not cause it.

The game didn't cause stress for you. You did it to yourself with your unhealthy expectations of what a game should provide. No one who plays a game to relieve stress compares it to jobs, promotions or getting fired. Maybe you should consider games that have no possiblities of upsetting you and stick to them.

I gotta agree with Torrible here TK,  I've NEVER in my life had a game CAUSE stress for me.

IF it does, I put it down and move on.

I've been here since BEFORE ME1 and I can honestly say I have an unhealthy obsession with playing all 3 and even I am not stressed by the game.

If I did get stressed by it, you can best believe I'd put it down, reevaluate my obsessive compunctions and move on to a new object to obsess over 

[Rixxencaxx]

Stanley Woo wrote...

People got angry when NWN came out and it wasn't BG.
People got angry when KotOR came out because it was a console game.
People got angry when Jade Empire came out because it was a different setting, and it was an action RPG.
People got angry when Mass Effect came out because it was a shooter.
People got angry when Dragon Age: Origins came out because it wasn't BG.
People got angry when DA2 came out because it wasn't DAO.
People got angry when ME2 came out because it wasn't ME1.
And now people are angry at ME3.

The cycle will continue as long as people feel they have an inalienable right to never be disappointed, or that their money entitles them to be rude or condescending to others, or that their opinions are the only, best, or right ones.

Am i wrong if i say that BG and Dao are your most successful games by number of units sold?

[da mighty rEAper]

Stanley Woo wrote...

People got angry when NWN came out and it wasn't BG.
People got angry when KotOR came out because it was a console game.
People got angry when Jade Empire came out because it was a different setting, and it was an action RPG.
People got angry when Mass Effect came out because it was a shooter.
People got angry when Dragon Age: Origins came out because it wasn't BG.
People got angry when DA2 came out because it wasn't DAO.
People got angry when ME2 came out because it wasn't ME1.
And now people are angry at ME3.

The cycle will continue as long as people feel they have an inalienable right to never be disappointed, or that their money entitles them to be rude or condescending to others, or that their opinions are the only, best, or right ones.

lol, thats a joke right?

[Terror_K]

Change isn't always bad, it's how it's done. The problem with the likes of ME2&3 and DA2 isn't so much change, but the nature of it. Consistency is the main thing at fault here. Change between different games isn't so much a bad thing, because you don't need to be consistent in that regard.

NWN isn't the same as Baldur's Gate, but it isn't supposed to be. Nor is DAO. There's no need for consistency between these games because they are separate games. If a person expects it, it's their own fault when it doesn't happen. Sure, these game share common factors, but they are not identical, and changes are expected in this regard.

ME2&3 and DA2 are different because fans expect a certain degree of consistency with their direct predecessors, because they ARE direct sequels to other existing games and not separate titles that just happen to be made by the same developer. When fans complain about the latter games not being true to the original games in this case it has a lot more merit, because games that are part of the same series should essentially be the same and not change up the formula all the time. They don't need to be identical, but there should at least be a consistency between these titles, and when you're playing later entries they should essentially feel like the original(s).

[vania z]

Stanley Woo wrote...

The cycle will continue as long as people feel they have an inalienable right to never be disappointed, or that their money entitles them to be rude or condescending to others, or that their opinions are the only, best, or right ones.

No, people just feel entitled to have what they were promised. And Biowasre has not delivered everything it promised. 
My customers also do not like it when I promise something and for some reason can't do it in time. And I completely understand them and try not to make same mistake in future with promising something I can't do, comes with experience.