713 réponses à ce sujet

[MrTijger]

Sirson wrote...

I agree with almost everything Stanley has said in his posts. Are we that bored of a society that we need to form "movements" and "factions" regarding an ending to a video game? It seems pretty insane really.

Wholeheartedly agree and yes, apparently that is where society is now.

[Stanley Woo]

Batviper wrote...

But I disagree with one thing; customers are your bosses.Simple as that, because you may not answer to them but you get your pay from your bosses and your bosses get their money from us. Now it's true we can't tell you what to do or anything like that like your bosses in the company do, but in the end we make the decision if you earn money or not.There are a lot of companies out there that had to shut down because people didn't support their games and they ran out of money and saying such things to customers only angers them more.Even though I agree with most of the things you said here I find this one comment to be rude.

We shall have to agree to disagree, Batviper, but I appreciate the comment. It is a sentiment that many people around here share, but it is not one that I support.

[Gatt9]

Stanley Woo wrote...

AndroLeonidas wrote...

It also does not address the WHY it it is unprecedented Stanley. What does it matter that there are tons more fans in the forums now? WHY are they out and about now complaining about the same thing. Perhaps it is because Bioware failed horribly in that respect and those fans feel slighted given what they were led to believe pre-ME3 release. And the fact that continued PR releases and this "Extended Cut" DLC announcement along with the now famous "Artistic Integrity" quote all prove that Bioware is NOT listening to its fans.

oh, well mostly it's that we have gotten so many new fans and new community members that have discovered that BioWare regularly takes an active part in our community and listens to our fan base that they have come in to speak their peace. This is why people feel comfortable freaking out in here and saying what's on their mind. This is why "movements" are created here and why campaigns are started here.

This is also why there appears to be some kind of internal "gang war" here between the Retake movements and the anti-Retake movement, and also between different portions of the Retake movement. Because people are passionate about our games, because they see us as paying attention, some people feel that if they can just say things loudly enough, emphatically enough, or often enough, that we'll get it through our thick skulls that they aren't happy and we'll do anything and everything we can to appease them. Because they paid money, damn it, and they are entitled to satisfaction from the money-grubbing corporation who "lied" to them repeatedly and with malice aforethought just to alienate them!

Some folks still have no idea how and why businesses do what they do, or why BioWare and/or EA communicates the way it does, or how we can "listen" to their concerns and not be forced to fix them as the customer wishes all the time. Based on their posts, some people also have trouble believing that they are not our only customer, and that their concerns are the best, only, and right opinions of the game to have. Of course, many people think that and often have conflicting views, so it's difficult, if not impossible, to please everyone all the time.

It just seems like a great big slap in the face to be honest. You can not clarify major gaffs in a story with more cut scenes and cinematics. I'm sorry. The endings went against everything Bioware said they would be and no matter how you sugarcoat it... you can not change that fact.

And if that's what you believe, than that's your prerogative and I'm not going to try to convince you otherwise. If, on the other hand, you're willing to discuss things, we are available to do so. But we're not going to get very far in discussions if you're goign to beg us for information on the one hand, and distrust everything we say on the other. At some point, you either have to choose to believe us or don't. If you don't believe what we say, then there's no point in discussing things further. If you do believe us, then there's still opportunity to talk.

And if you're going to engage in a little bit of "give-and-take" discussion, you actually have to "give" a little, rather than digging in your heels and expecting us to do nothing but capitulate to all your demands. Despite what some people might tell you, and please forgive the childish tone, but "you're not the boss of us." You do not have veto power, decision-making power, or direction power, over BioWare regardless of how much money you spent on our products or how many bioWare games you've played in your gaming life. Sorry.

I hope that makes things a little clearer.

I don't believe people think that BiowareEA interacts with fans here,  there's largely been little evidence of that.  Generally the communication from Bioware is dismissive and condescending,  much like your tone here,  or outright strategic silence because BiowareEA doesn't want to admit their plan is anti-consumer.

Further,  the customers are largely the boss.  I'm aware that the prevailing attitude in the Industry,  and especailly at EA,  is anti-customer and the belief is that people will just come back no matter what.  The truth is,  they won't.  So while you are welcome to treat the customers the way they do,  you'll eventually have to deal with the fact that the customers are decision makers.  Which,  TBH,  you really should be contemplating right now considering the analyst report yesterday estimating only 1.5 million units sold out of the 3.8 million unit initial shipment. 

I'm sorry,  but in the end,  you want to sell us a product.  The attitude you project isn't very conducive to that,  especially after everything that's gone on with ME3.  You have a large number of upset customers,  being confrontational is just going to push some number away from purchasing future BiowareEA games,  an event you really can't afford at this point.

I'd also caution you against putting the word lies in quotes,  as if there's no merit.  The BBB just called your ad campaign fradulent.  BiowareEA is on thin ice at this point,  that may very well be the first time the BBB has ever weighed in on a game's ad campaign versus the product delivered,  and you're likely now at risk of legal action.  Additionally,  I'm sure partners like the NFL and FIFA are watching.  Antagonizing the situation is not a good plan. 

Fans are upset,  they're upset with good cause,  and these types of posts are not going to help BiowareEA.

[Batviper]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Batviper wrote...

But I disagree with one thing; customers are your bosses.Simple as that, because you may not answer to them but you get your pay from your bosses and your bosses get their money from us. Now it's true we can't tell you what to do or anything like that like your bosses in the company do, but in the end we make the decision if you earn money or not.There are a lot of companies out there that had to shut down because people didn't support their games and they ran out of money and saying such things to customers only angers them more.Even though I agree with most of the things you said here I find this one comment to be rude.

We shall have to agree to disagree, Batviper, but I appreciate the comment. It is a sentiment that many people around here share, but it is not one that I support.

Of course Stanley.Note that I am not saying that you should do everything customers say, I actually respect you for taking a stand and not caving in with most matters unlike other companies out there (even though I have to mention the RPG aspects here again) .But I am afraid customers are cruel and it's not always possible to do this.I know it firsthand, sometimes you just have to do what they say even though you hate it.It's bad I know.

Modifié par Batviper, 11 avril 2012 - 11:20 .

[Batviper]

Gatt9 said...

Further,  the customers are largely the boss.  I'm aware that the
prevailing attitude in the Industry,  and especailly at EA,  is
anti-customer and the belief is that people will just come back no
matter what.  The truth is,  they won't.  So while you are welcome to
treat the customers the way they do,  you'll eventually have to deal
with the fact that the customers are decision makers.  Which,  TBH,  you
really should be contemplating right now considering the analyst report
yesterday estimating only 1.5 million units sold out of the 3.8 million
unit initial shipment. 

I'm sorry,  but in the end,  you want to sell us a product.

Exactly my point.Even though I kinda understand where Stanley's coming from, ultimately we make the decisions.The way they've been dumbing down RPG aspects in their games is proof enough that the customers are giving directions, that equals to being a boss to me to be honest.

[MentalKase]

As an industrial control package designer I know that the customer isn't always right. Sometimes their expectations aren't realistic. Sometimes it is impossible to do what they want. Sometimes the parts they want to use would never do what they want. But it is my job as the designer to make it clear that what they want isn't possible. Of course that means you might lose the job but it's better than getting sued.

But if I say you will have these options in the final product and then I release that product and it didn't contain those options that I did promise, then I understand the anger of the customer. And if I want to keep that customer I would add in those options that were promised at my expense or reach some comprimise as to fair compensation. I wouldn't nessassarily get rid of what I have already done but I would add the options that I did promise.

Modifié par MentalKase, 11 avril 2012 - 11:29 .

[kbct]

Stanley Woo wrote...

AndroLeonidas wrote...

It also does not address the WHY it it is unprecedented Stanley.

oh, well mostly it's that we have gotten so many new fans and new community members that have discovered that BioWare regularly takes an active part in our community and listens to our fan base that they have come in to speak their peace.

Sigh. It's not unprecedented because there are more fans and BioWare has a reputation for listening to their fanbase.

It's because the ME3 ending ruined the epic Mass Effect story. Everything stems from that one basic problem.

Modifié par kbct, 11 avril 2012 - 11:33 .

[MegaSovereign]

Just because it's disliked by a large faction, that doesn't mean the ending is broken.

I support Consumer Rights when it comes to issues like game playability and bugs---those are issues that can and should be fixed. All other grievances with the story and such are subjective. The free Extended Cut DLC alone is unnecessary fanfare.

I don't like EA as a company but all this legal crap regarding the endings is silly.

[Sirson]

Arcian wrote...

MrTijger wrote...

Sirson wrote...

I agree with almost everything Stanley has said in his posts. Are we that bored of a society that we need to form "movements" and "factions" regarding an ending to a video game? It seems pretty insane really.

Wholeheartedly agree and yes, apparently that is where society is now.

CONSUMER RIGHTS.

You may be corporate doormats who'll let the companies do whatever they want with your money, but don't expect the rest of us to just sit and watch while those snakes step on our rights as consumers and bleed our wallets dry.

Dramatic much?

[Mad-Max90]

Look bioware doesn't have to do anything to make people happy, and like all the other businesses that fail to please customers they will fall, it's that easy. There's always another team out there wanting to fill the hole that bioware digs itself. I'll agree with the fact that we are not your boss, but let's face it, if it wasn't for your fans you wouldn't still be here. The money you get comes from EA, but the money they get comes from us, so please remember it's not a good thing to back into a corner and bite the hand that feeds you.

[Stanley Woo]

Arcian wrote...

CONSUMER RIGHTS.

You may be corporate doormats who'll let the companies do whatever they want with your money, but don't expect the rest of us to just sit and watch while those snakes step on our rights as consumers and bleed our wallets dry.

None of your rights have been stepped on. The ability to choose whether to purchase or not purchase our products have always been and will always be ultimately up to you. You, as the consumer, have the awesome power, as well as the responsibility to determine for yourself what to buy. No one is taking that away from you.

However, at the same time, no one is guaranteeing you will like, agree with, or be satisfied by the products you buy. I can talk about how awesome ME3 is untilt he cows come home, but the ultimate decision to buy the game is yours and yours alone. no amount of marketing, cajoling, or dance routines by me absolves you of that privilege or responsibility.

Forming an opinion of that product is also your privilege and your responsiblity. Disliking, disagreeing with, or being disappointed by the product is not a violation of your consumer rights, nor is it a personal affront, nor is it a systematic attack on your wallet. That is always the risk you take when you buy something--the risk of not liking it or the risk of it being bad. If you never want to be disappointed, I would recommend not buying things, especially media products or entertainment products. I myself have paid to see movies I didn't like, paid for books I didn't like, and bought games I didn't like. that is the risk I take when I buy things, and as a responsible consumer, I accept that not everything will be to my liking. I also learn from the purchase and try to not buy things I know I won't like. Doesn't always work, but I am very well aware of my responsibilities as a consumer.

Also, I tend to like things that make my friends shake their heads.

[Batviper]

Arcian wrote...

batviper wrote...

Of course Stanley.Note that I am not saying that you should do everything customers say, I actually respect you for taking a stand and not caving in with most matters unlike other companies out there (even though I have to mention the RPG aspects here again) .But I am afraid customers are cruel and it's not always possible to do this.I know it firsthand, sometimes you just have to do what they say even though you hate it.It's bad I know.

>Customers are cruel
They're what's keeping your business alive, genius. If they make demands, you had better listen. It's no different than your boss asking you to do your damn job - after all, that's what he's paying you for.

I share the same thoughts with you mate but note that they don't have to do every single thing we want, they have rights too.Nor does an employee has to do everything his boss tells him too, he has rights.But as customers, we pay money to their products so we deserve to be satisfied with the product we bought.If we are not satisfied we simply don't pay them again and they lose money, when this happens they make changes to their next game to appeal to us.

So in the end we do change their direction which means even though we don't really control every little detail of their product we do control it's general direction.

Modifié par Batviper, 11 avril 2012 - 11:39 .

[Atakuma]

Gatt9 wrote...
Which,  TBH,  you really should be contemplating right now considering the analyst report yesterday estimating only 1.5 million units sold out of the 3.8 million unit initial shipment. 

VGchartz estimates 3.4 mullion units sold, of course you aren't going to mention that because it doesn't enforce your argument.

I'd also caution you against putting the word lies in quotes,  as if there's no merit.  The BBB just called your ad campaign fradulent.  BiowareEA is on thin ice at this point,  that may very well be the first time the BBB has ever weighed in on a game's ad campaign versus the product delivered,  and you're likely now at risk of legal action.  Additionally,  I'm sure partners like the NFL and FIFA are watching.  Antagonizing the situation is not a good plan.

No they did not, someone who works there wrote an article about it. No official statement has been made and the person who wrote it is not a lawyer, so it means about as much as a opinion piece on IGN.

[AJRimmsey]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Arcian wrote...

CONSUMER RIGHTS.

You may be corporate doormats who'll let the companies do whatever they want with your money, but don't expect the rest of us to just sit and watch while those snakes step on our rights as consumers and bleed our wallets dry.

None of your rights have been stepped on. The ability to choose whether to purchase or not purchase our products have always been and will always be ultimately up to you. You, as the consumer, have the awesome power, as well as the responsibility to determine for yourself what to buy. No one is taking that away from you.

However, at the same time, no one is guaranteeing you will like, agree with, or be satisfied by the products you buy. I can talk about how awesome ME3 is untilt he cows come home, but the ultimate decision to buy the game is yours and yours alone. no amount of marketing, cajoling, or dance routines by me absolves you of that privilege or responsibility.

Forming an opinion of that product is also your privilege and your responsiblity. Disliking, disagreeing with, or being disappointed by the product is not a violation of your consumer rights, nor is it a personal affront, nor is it a systematic attack on your wallet. That is always the risk you take when you buy something--the risk of not liking it or the risk of it being bad. If you never want to be disappointed, I would recommend not buying things, especially media products or entertainment products. I myself have paid to see movies I didn't like, paid for books I didn't like, and bought games I didn't like. that is the risk I take when I buy things, and as a responsible consumer, I accept that not everything will be to my liking. I also learn from the purchase and try to not buy things I know I won't like. Doesn't always work, but I am very well aware of my responsibilities as a consumer.

Also, I tend to like things that make my friends shake their heads.

out of all that extreme logic and common sense,you just know the one thing thats going to be picked at is what exactly makes your friends shake thier heads.

i think its hamsters in bikinins

[kbct]

Atakuma wrote...

VGchartz estimates 3.4 mullion units sold, of course you aren't going to mention that because it doesn't enforce your argument.

Mr. Woo, how many units have been sold? What is your breakeven? How many returns? What does discounting do to your profit margin?

[Stanley Woo]

Mad-Max90 wrote...

Look bioware doesn't have to do anything to make people happy, and like all the other businesses that fail to please customers they will fall, it's that easy. There's always another team out there wanting to fill the hole that bioware digs itself. I'll agree with the fact that we are not your boss, but let's face it, if it wasn't for your fans you wouldn't still be here. The money you get comes from EA, but the money they get comes from us, so please remember it's not a good thing to back into a corner and bite the hand that feeds you.

Agreed, but I disagree that making content that people don't like is a "betrayal" or a "lie." We are not looking to please everyone all the time. I mean, okay, sure, that'd be awesome, but we realize that that is an impossible task, given the wide spectrum of gamers represented by our community. But if you want to play it that way, then BioWare has been "failing" due to "not listening to our fans" since 2003! We have "been responsible for the decline of RPGs," contributed to the "death of PC gaming," and "driving away our fans" since my first big project, Neverwinter Nights. Every project, I enter into a discussion much like this with a group of fans who are displeased with the game in one way or another, and every time, I submit similar arguments. And, every time, people say the same thing to me, which boils down to "if you fail to please me, you will fail." And that's the part I disagree with.

I'm not trying to pick a fight or be contrary here. I literally have this (or similar) conversation with parts of our community many times after the release of every product.

[MrTijger]

kbct wrote...

Atakuma wrote...

VGchartz estimates 3.4 mullion units sold, of course you aren't going to mention that because it doesn't enforce your argument.

Mr. Woo, how many units have been sold? What is your breakeven? How many returns? What does discounting do to your profit margin?

Why is that relevant to the topic and why would you ask a question you know he cannot and should not answer?

[Stanley Woo]

kbct wrote...

Atakuma wrote...

VGchartz estimates 3.4 mullion units sold, of course you aren't going to mention that because it doesn't enforce your argument.

Mr. Woo, how many units have been sold? What is your breakeven? How many returns? What does discounting do to your profit margin?

This one's easy.

Not disclosed.
None of your business.
None of your business.
Mathematically, reduces it, assuming initial cost of production remains constant.

[MrTijger]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Mad-Max90 wrote...

Look bioware doesn't have to do anything to make people happy, and like all the other businesses that fail to please customers they will fall, it's that easy. There's always another team out there wanting to fill the hole that bioware digs itself. I'll agree with the fact that we are not your boss, but let's face it, if it wasn't for your fans you wouldn't still be here. The money you get comes from EA, but the money they get comes from us, so please remember it's not a good thing to back into a corner and bite the hand that feeds you.

Agreed, but I disagree that making content that people don't like is a "betrayal" or a "lie." We are not looking to please everyone all the time. I mean, okay, sure, that'd be awesome, but we realize that that is an impossible task, given the wide spectrum of gamers represented by our community. But if you want to play it that way, then BioWare has been "failing" due to "not listening to our fans" since 2003! We have "been responsible for the decline of RPGs," contributed to the "death of PC gaming," and "driving away our fans" since my first big project, Neverwinter Nights. Every project, I enter into a discussion much like this with a group of fans who are displeased with the game in one way or another, and every time, I submit similar arguments. And, every time, people say the same thing to me, which boils down to "if you fail to please me, you will fail." And that's the part I disagree with.

I'm not trying to pick a fight or be contrary here. I literally have this (or similar) conversation with parts of our community many times after the release of every product.

Geez, Stanley, with that rap sheet how do you sleep at night!

[Drake_Hound]

@ woo thank you for the interaction, but want to ask you honestly as gamer .
are you satisfied with this ending ?

If the answer is yes can you tell me why ?

I will accept the outcome either way , but am not asking mass effect 3 as a product , cause it is fabulous , it is the ending to a EPIC tale or SAGA , that had me in a RAGE. mode for 1 day.
We consumers have no rights cause most people forfeit there rights , but we gamers have different rights , cause we vote with our wallets unaffected by PR Marketing or Hype.
Especially as Bioware supporter that gone trough a long ordeal and always held Bioware in the highest esteem .

So Woo the question is more do you as a gamer like the ending ?

[MaldororAzrael]

[/quote]
oh, well mostly it's that we have gotten so many new fans and new community members that have discovered that BioWare regularly takes an active part in our community and listens to our fan base that they have come in to speak their peace. This is why people feel comfortable freaking out in here and saying what's on their mind. This is why "movements" are created here and why campaigns are started here.
[/quote] 

I'm not sure if I understood it correctly, but it appears that you generalise "movements" such as RME as groups of people "freaking out" on the forums Stanley. I hope that this isn't the case - I agree, of course, that many people took the discussions way too far, to the point where nothing constructive was being added, but I think that this generalisation is unfair. As you also pointed out, people are passionate about Bioware games and I think it is safe to assume that the old fan base is the most passionate and outspoken group. As such, it seems incorrect to assume that the new fans are significantly responsible for the recent "trends" on the forum.

[/quote] This is also why there appears to be some kind of internal "gang war" here between the Retake movements and the anti-Retake movement, and also between different portions of the Retake movement. Because people are passionate about our games, because they see us as paying attention, some people feel that if they can just say things loudly enough, emphatically enough, or often enough, that we'll get it through our thick skulls that they aren't happy and we'll do anything and everything we can to appease them. Because they paid money, damn it, and they are entitled to satisfaction from the money-grubbing corporation who "lied" to them repeatedly and with malice aforethought just to alienate them!
[/quote] 

I understand the sarcasm here, but I feel disappointed to hear sarcastic remarks from you about people who asked for the changes  "emphatically enough"  , which was in fact often backed with constructive criticism, examples and suggestions. Saying that, I of course realise that Bioware decided to adress many of these concerns with the Extended Cut, but if your seemingly dismissive views of our concerns about endings are common at Bioware, it raises concerns about how seriously the company approach to the Extended Cut really is. 

[/quote] Some folks still have no idea how and why businesses do what they do, or why BioWare and/or EA communicates the way it does, or how we can "listen" to their concerns and not be forced to fix them as the customer wishes all the time. Based on their posts, some people also have trouble believing that they are not our only customer, and that their concerns are the best, only, and right opinions of the game to have. Of course, many people think that and often have conflicting views, so it's difficult, if not impossible, to please everyone all the time.
[/quote] 

I agree that many people have expectations much higher than what can actually be done and it's never possible to please everybody, but despite different views among RME supporters, it appears that a massive number of fans/customers - dare I say "the majority"? - has exactly the same concerns and suggestions, so I think the problem of "the only customer" does not apply here.

[/quote]
Despite what some people might tell you, and please forgive the childish tone, but "you're not the boss of us." You do not have veto power, decision-making power, or direction power, over BioWare regardless of how much money you spent on our products or how many bioWare games you've played in your gaming life. Sorry.
[/quote] 

That's a very interesting view Stanley. Bioware made the point of seeing their games as art many times - many of the most beloved artists: writers, musicians, actors often state that their fans are their driving force and make it possible for them to produce and profit from their work by buying the tickets, books, comics - you name it. While we certainly don't have any of the powers you mentioned, we do have our expectations. A significant number of fans who purchased ME3 was disappointed with the delivered endings and I have too much respect for Bioware 
to believe that the company was unaware of what the expectations were and what would please the majority of the fans.

In the end, sales are the most important feedback any artist producing commercial art might receive. Providing this very type of feedback to Bioware's latest release is what "Hold The Wallet" movement is about. I hope that this time our voice will be taken seriously.

To conclude, I appreciate that you took the time to respond to this thread and I apologise in advance if the format of this post is confusing - I'm not very familiar with using the quotes. Thank you.

[Batviper]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Mad-Max90 wrote...

Look bioware doesn't have to do anything to make people happy, and like all the other businesses that fail to please customers they will fall, it's that easy. There's always another team out there wanting to fill the hole that bioware digs itself. I'll agree with the fact that we are not your boss, but let's face it, if it wasn't for your fans you wouldn't still be here. The money you get comes from EA, but the money they get comes from us, so please remember it's not a good thing to back into a corner and bite the hand that feeds you.

Agreed, but I disagree that making content that people don't like is a "betrayal" or a "lie." We are not looking to please everyone all the time. I mean, okay, sure, that'd be awesome, but we realize that that is an impossible task, given the wide spectrum of gamers represented by our community. But if you want to play it that way, then BioWare has been "failing" due to "not listening to our fans" since 2003! We have "been responsible for the decline of RPGs," contributed to the "death of PC gaming," and "driving away our fans" since my first big project, Neverwinter Nights. Every project, I enter into a discussion much like this with a group of fans who are displeased with the game in one way or another, and every time, I submit similar arguments. And, every time, people say the same thing to me, which boils down to "if you fail to please me, you will fail." And that's the part I disagree with.

I'm not trying to pick a fight or be contrary here. I literally have this (or similar) conversation with parts of our community many times after the release of every product.

To be honest I bought all your games apart from Jade Empire ever since I played Kotor.Apart from Dragon Age 2 I loved it all, I knew ME was action-RPG so I wasn't disappointed.But ME2 did disappoint me, as lots of aspects of the first game was simply removed rather than making them better.Same with ME3.I love all ME games but I am sorry, I really can't call ME3 an action-RPG after getting used to the dialogue wheel of the first two games.You simply removed a feature I loved to reach more customers.At least you made levelling more detailed though .

But let me tell you; in my opinion you guys never made a game like Kotor again.Kotor was the first BioWare game I played and such a game never came out of BioWare ever again, now that's the kind of RPG I like.I can even live with the combat system as long as the other aspects are there even though I prefer to have full control of combat.But I noticed that means losing other RPG aspects I came to love.You made me addicted to such features and now you are taking them away from me  .

[Hyrist]

That may be true, but there's always valid feedback within each and every protest, and the latest two has had more solid ground to debate the issues than any of the previous 'complaints' you cite, Stanley.

This isn't so much an issue that the matters are unprecedented because they 'grow' it's unprecedented because they have far firmer of a ground to stand on, argumentatively, which could be considered a failure to produce on promises on BioWares part (as a BBB rep agrees.)

Pardon the generalizations, but you seem to have a very strong leaning of 'Boy who cried Wolf' syndrome in this circumstance, even though the predator is grinning at you.

This time it's so much of a "You Fail to Please Me, you Fail." as a "You really broke your promise here." That's more of the reason why the protest volume is larger, not just the fact that the community is growing.