713 réponses à ce sujet

[Icesong]

I'm not trying to pick a fight or be contrary here. I literally have
this (or similar) conversation with parts of our community many times
after the release of every product.

Do you think it's possible then that this is skewing your perspective to why this time it isn't your standard nerdrage? 

[kbct]

Stanley Woo wrote...

kbct wrote...

Mr. Woo, how many units have been sold? What is your breakeven? How many returns? What does discounting do to your profit margin?

This one's easy.

Not disclosed.
None of your business.
None of your business.
Mathematically, reduces it, assuming initial cost of production remains constant.

Okay.

Did you like the ME3 ending yourself? Yes, I know it is a toxic question.

Modifié par kbct, 11 avril 2012 - 11:53 .

[AJRimmsey]

Drake_Hound wrote...

@ woo thank you for the interaction, but want to ask you honestly as gamer .
are you satisfied with this ending ?

If the answer is yes can you tell me why ?

I will accept the outcome either way , but am not asking mass effect 3 as a product , cause it is fabulous , it is the ending to a EPIC tale or SAGA , that had me in a RAGE. mode for 1 day.
We consumers have no rights cause most people forfeit there rights , but we gamers have different rights , cause we vote with our wallets unaffected by PR Marketing or Hype.
Especially as Bioware supporter that gone trough a long ordeal and always held Bioware in the highest esteem .

So Woo the question is more do you as a gamer like the ending ?

rubs crystal balls

answers yes = pr goon lying and paid to say it
answers no = gagged by bioware as he didnt join in the furor

[Stanley Woo]

MrTijger wrote...

Geez, Stanley, with that rap sheet how do you sleep at night!

Science?

Seriously, though, I understand why some people make the comments that they do. I've been in this business 11 years and seen the community side of things for almost that long. I have seen this community through every major release since 2002 and made my share of mistteps, misstatements and been called into a couple of Official Meetings™ regarding stuff I've said or arguments I've been a part of within and with this community.

I would hope that I am seen as somewhat of an authority figure here, and that none of my comments are intended to inflame, insult, belittle, or dismiss people's complaints. What I try to do is to get people to think about what and how they buy things, how they view and respond to marketing, and to encourage them to be more responsible with their consumerism. We developers are open to discussion, but we have to be somewhat on the same playing field in order for us to understand one another.

If we take our community for granted, we won't be able to make the kinds of games they're looking for. If the community takes us for granted, they're going to lose this valuable method of communicating directly with the very people making the games they want to play. I don't want either of those things to happen.

[Dridengx]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Mad-Max90 wrote...

Look bioware doesn't have to do anything to make people happy, and like all the other businesses that fail to please customers they will fall, it's that easy. There's always another team out there wanting to fill the hole that bioware digs itself. I'll agree with the fact that we are not your boss, but let's face it, if it wasn't for your fans you wouldn't still be here. The money you get comes from EA, but the money they get comes from us, so please remember it's not a good thing to back into a corner and bite the hand that feeds you.

Agreed, but I disagree that making content that people don't like is a "betrayal" or a "lie." We are not looking to please everyone all the time. I mean, okay, sure, that'd be awesome, but we realize that that is an impossible task, given the wide spectrum of gamers represented by our community. But if you want to play it that way, then BioWare has been "failing" due to "not listening to our fans" since 2003! We have "been responsible for the decline of RPGs," contributed to the "death of PC gaming," and "driving away our fans" since my first big project, Neverwinter Nights. Every project, I enter into a discussion much like this with a group of fans who are displeased with the game in one way or another, and every time, I submit similar arguments. And, every time, people say the same thing to me, which boils down to "if you fail to please me, you will fail." And that's the part I disagree with.

I'm not trying to pick a fight or be contrary here. I literally have this (or similar) conversation with parts of our community many times after the release of every product.

Good stuff, there was a thread about that very same thing. Talking about how everyone whines after every Bioware release. I also agreed with your previous statement about consumer rights.

[jds1bio]

Stanley Woo wrote...

It just seems like a great big slap in the face to be honest. You can not clarify major gaffs in a story with more cut scenes and cinematics. I'm sorry. The endings went against everything Bioware said they would be and no matter how you sugarcoat it... you can not change that fact.

And if that's what you believe, than that's your prerogative and I'm not going to try to convince you otherwise. If, on the other hand, you're willing to discuss things, we are available to do so. But we're not going to get very far in discussions if you're goign to beg us for information on the one hand, and distrust everything we say on the other. At some point, you either have to choose to believe us or don't. If you don't believe what we say, then there's no point in discussing things further. If you do believe us, then there's still opportunity to talk.

And if you're going to engage in a little bit of "give-and-take" discussion, you actually have to "give" a little, rather than digging in your heels and expecting us to do nothing but capitulate to all your demands. Despite what some people might tell you, and please forgive the childish tone, but "you're not the boss of us." You do not have veto power, decision-making power, or direction power, over BioWare regardless of how much money you spent on our products or how many bioWare games you've played in your gaming life. Sorry.

I hope that makes things a little clearer.

Stanley, you are quite right in saying the customer/fan is not the boss.

But to say that someone has to choose to believe you in order for a discussion to take place is not entirely fair.  Plenty of discussions can still occur even if a customer or business views the other in a suspicious light.   And often under these circumstances issues can be settled, viewpoints can be clarified, customers can be satisfied, and suspicions can be dispensed with.  It happened, eventually, with some of the Dragon Age 2 discussions.

Having said this, I've read (and been involved with) several civil and successful community discussions with BioWare, so all should know that they can and do occur.  So although it is being expressed rather strongly, and at times rather poorly, people are upset because they still don't believe what their senses are telling them about the ME3 endings vs. their expectations set up from pre-release interviews with gaming journalists. 

So I get that give-and-take is necessary.  But I have yet to see one discussion on
BSN where BioWare has directly engaged with fans on issues regarding those pre-release interviews, the source of some of the disapproval.  Perhaps I have missed them, but if there are certain discussions that simply CANNOT occur for whatever reason, or cannot happen YET, please let us know. 

[Drake_Hound]

@jimmy am not asking you cause your opnion is moot , other then what is the next big hype or project , which you gain a benefit .

am asking Woo who has a wierd taste in different aspect most of which he cannot explain on the forums .

That is the issue , bioware as a company have a lot of people with different taste .
But foremost they are a big bunch of gamers , not the modern kind of gamers , but the old kind of gamers .. they do not have to answer and I think they will not answer .

but it is time the debate that among themself as company which started off in canada and won the reward for it , as a company who took broken down company like blackisle and supported them .

[Il Divo]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Batviper wrote...

But I disagree with one thing; customers are your bosses.Simple as that, because you may not answer to them but you get your pay from your bosses and your bosses get their money from us. Now it's true we can't tell you what to do or anything like that like your bosses in the company do, but in the end we make the decision if you earn money or not.There are a lot of companies out there that had to shut down because people didn't support their games and they ran out of money and saying such things to customers only angers them more.Even though I agree with most of the things you said here I find this one comment to be rude.

We shall have to agree to disagree, Batviper, but I appreciate the comment. It is a sentiment that many people around here share, but it is not one that I support.

That depends on how much detail we want to go on the subject. Individually, a fan's voice is pretty meaningless. We whine on here all the time, often overexaggerate issues ad infinitum, and it usually amounts to nothing but screaming. But functionally, in your desire to attain sales, you rely on fans. A novelist needs pen, paper, and ideas to produce his work. At the end of the day, how much resources are necessary to generate ME3 level projects?

If Bioware projects 3.5 million sales for ME3 and (coincedentally) 3.5 million ME3 fans were to refuse to buy the game unless Bioware listened to them, you're in a bit of a situation. Can Bioware continue making Bioware games without generating a profit? If the answer is no, the customers are functionally-speaking the boss at the end of the day. And that's customers-plural which is the problem we run into. Customers exercise that function only by speaking with one voice and as long as we are incapable of speaking with that voice (which is pretty much all the time) you will never see us fill that function.

Modifié par Il Divo, 12 avril 2012 - 12:05 .

[Mad-Max90]

@Mr. Woo, don't get me wrong I've been playing bioware games over half my life, and I've loved them all...mostly so I hope you don't fall as a company(RIP, origins and westwood) merely stating that if you do, there are other companies who would love to get your fanbase, well most of them. I realize it's impossible to please everybody all the time, but it's not hard to please most the people most the time, and ME3 has some seriously great parts to it, but that ending, if the team can clarify *that* ending kudos to them, because clearing that up would be a tremendous task for any grat author. I personally am reserving anymore judgement on bioware until the extended cut is released, at this point it's all I can do as a fan. I hope the dlc does do a great job of clearing things up...I'd like to be able to shoot the catalyst kid but hey, you can't please everyone.

[addiction21]

Drake_Hound wrote...

That is the issue , bioware as a company have a lot of people with different taste .
But foremost they are a big bunch of gamers , not the modern kind of gamers , but the old kind of gamers .. they do not have to answer and I think they will not answer .

but it is time the debate that among themself as company which started off in canada and won the reward for it , as a company who took broken down company like blackisle and supported them .

They are gamers. There are just gamers. Nothing more then gamers. I have been "gaming" since the 80's and I am just a gamer.

Stop with the lines in the sand. Stop breaking gamers into little groups so you can heap your disdain on them.

What is the difference between someone who started with pong and loved DAO then someone who started with Doom and still loves DAO? How about someone who loves Wing Commander and loves DAO? What do you call someone you played the Ultima series from the start and loads up CoD a few times a week? Zelda to the WItcher? Halo to and they find ME1 the better game?

Stop tearing what you love apart because everyone is not like you.

[kbct]

Stanley Woo wrote...

I would hope that I am seen as somewhat of an authority figure here, and that none of my comments are intended to inflame, insult, belittle, or dismiss people's complaints.

You should change your avatar back to the happy volus. No more Renegade Woo.

[Drake_Hound]

@addiction do you really want a answer for that ?
well here is the answer you call those people statistics .
Predictable statistics , since they are not bound by loyalty .

those are called casual gamers , which modern day publishers get there income from

[Sith Reaper]

kbct wrote...

I've been on and off these forums since BG2 and have never seen anything close to this.

ME2 had similar backlash, believe it or not.

[kbct]

Sith Reaper wrote...

kbct wrote...

I've been on and off these forums since BG2 and have never seen anything close to this.

ME2 had similar backlash, believe it or not.

Ya gotta go back and read the thread. There is lots of evidence to the contrary.

Modifié par kbct, 12 avril 2012 - 12:15 .

[TreguardD]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Science?

[Snip!]

Mr. Woo is back!

Mr. Woo; would you will be willing to dialogue with me on the artistic merits of Mass Effect 3?

www.youtube.com/watch

This is a link to "Tastefully stated Nerd Rage: Mass Effect 3"

I would like you to watch it, come back to this thread and give us your comments.

Please don't ONLY respond to the people who are raging. You have those who *want* to believe that you will do it right.

[Blastback]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Mad-Max90 wrote...

Look bioware doesn't have to do anything to make people happy, and like all the other businesses that fail to please customers they will fall, it's that easy. There's always another team out there wanting to fill the hole that bioware digs itself. I'll agree with the fact that we are not your boss, but let's face it, if it wasn't for your fans you wouldn't still be here. The money you get comes from EA, but the money they get comes from us, so please remember it's not a good thing to back into a corner and bite the hand that feeds you.

Agreed, but I disagree that making content that people don't like is a "betrayal" or a "lie." We are not looking to please everyone all the time. I mean, okay, sure, that'd be awesome, but we realize that that is an impossible task, given the wide spectrum of gamers represented by our community. But if you want to play it that way, then BioWare has been "failing" due to "not listening to our fans" since 2003! We have "been responsible for the decline of RPGs," contributed to the "death of PC gaming," and "driving away our fans" since my first big project, Neverwinter Nights. Every project, I enter into a discussion much like this with a group of fans who are displeased with the game in one way or another, and every time, I submit similar arguments. And, every time, people say the same thing to me, which boils down to "if you fail to please me, you will fail." And that's the part I disagree with.

I'm not trying to pick a fight or be contrary here. I literally have this (or similar) conversation with parts of our community many times after the release of every product.

Well, for what it's worth, in this case at least, the lie and betrayal lines aren't becasue we were unhappy with the ending as much as we feel the ending isn't what Bioware told us it would be.  And the fact that a large number of players are finding that they have to play multiplayer to raise their whatcha macallit score to the highest level when Bioware specificly said that wouldn't be the case. 

[-Skorpious-]

Sith Reaper wrote...

kbct wrote...

I've been on and off these forums since BG2 and have never seen anything close to this.

ME2 had similar backlash, believe it or not.

Similar perhaps, but still no where near the amount of backlash ME3 is currently receiving.

I was active on the boards during ME2's release and only a few, die-hard individuals ever mentioned anything along the lines off swearing off Bioware forever or boycotting the company. Plus, the "hate" threads for ME2 were kept in check by a healthy amount of positive discussion, and just about disappeared completely in a period of about a month.

ME3 has been on store shelves longer than a month and the tone of negativity is still strong. 

[Biff the Understudy]

Stanley Woo wrote...

MrTijger wrote...

Geez, Stanley, with that rap sheet how do you sleep at night!

Science?

Seriously, though, I understand why some people make the comments that they do. I've been in this business 11 years and seen the community side of things for almost that long. I have seen this community through every major release since 2002 and made my share of mistteps, misstatements and been called into a couple of Official Meetings™ regarding stuff I've said or arguments I've been a part of within and with this community.

I would hope that I am seen as somewhat of an authority figure here, and that none of my comments are intended to inflame, insult, belittle, or dismiss people's complaints. What I try to do is to get people to think about what and how they buy things, how they view and respond to marketing, and to encourage them to be more responsible with their consumerism. We developers are open to discussion, but we have to be somewhat on the same playing field in order for us to understand one another.

If we take our community for granted, we won't be able to make the kinds of games they're looking for. If the community takes us for granted, they're going to lose this valuable method of communicating directly with the very people making the games they want to play. I don't want either of those things to happen.

I think a major problem with the current furure is one of scale. Bioware has a lot more fans than the old days, so even a small percentage of people being unpleasant or making ludicrous threats about suing and whatnot can translate to a great many individual posts that I imagine cant be terribly pleasant to read. Pretty natuaraly reading 101 different iterations of 'this is why you suck' is probably more than a bit irritating, and hardly encourages the kind of open communication the community is desperate for. Which of course prompts more people to be unpleasant, and throw around accusations of stonewalling and lies, and on and on ad infinitium.

Personally I didn't much like the ending because it seemed a bit choppy, but the rest of the game was pure gold, and I'm very pleased Bioware are clearing up that issue via free dlc. Perhaps that's insufficient for some people, but I suspect doing anything more drastic would be massively impractical and annoy people who like the ending. Folks just need to learn to compromise and meet the devs on the middle.

[1490]

I will agree with Mr. Woo: I've been on the forums since ME 1 first came out, and there has been tons of hate since then. Everyone was jumping on the ME 1 forums to complain about how the game "wasn't a true RPG" or was "ruining the RPG genre." People complained that ME 2 was a "dumbed-down shooter," even though there was more and deeper role-playing in the game. And here we are with ME 3. Yes, I have my issues with the ending like many people here, but new people on here need to realize:

A: Bioware DOES listen to fans. Lots of MY requests that were shared by other forumites made it into ME 1 and 2.
B: Games take time to make. People are DEMANDING fixes and answers,yet the game has been out a little over a month. How long does it take you to create something this complex? Unless you work for a gaming company, I would be happy with the already-prompt (a few months) timeline you have received for fixes.

[Aetius5]

Stanley Woo wrote...

MrTijger wrote...

Geez, Stanley, with that rap sheet how do you sleep at night!

Science?

Seriously, though, I understand why some people make the comments that they do. I've been in this business 11 years and seen the community side of things for almost that long. I have seen this community through every major release since 2002 and made my share of mistteps, misstatements and been called into a couple of Official Meetings™ regarding stuff I've said or arguments I've been a part of within and with this community.

I would hope that I am seen as somewhat of an authority figure here, and that none of my comments are intended to inflame, insult, belittle, or dismiss people's complaints. What I try to do is to get people to think about what and how they buy things, how they view and respond to marketing, and to encourage them to be more responsible with their consumerism. We developers are open to discussion, but we have to be somewhat on the same playing field in order for us to understand one another.

If we take our community for granted, we won't be able to make the kinds of games they're looking for. If the community takes us for granted, they're going to lose this valuable method of communicating directly with the very people making the games they want to play. I don't want either of those things to happen.

Of course Death's Hand, errr Stanley Woo is an authority figure. Appreciate the discussion even if we disagree. While I would like to see the endings changed to a degree it's BW/EA's prerogative to do so and while us fans can ask for it, there's not much else we can do. Fact is guys, at the end of the day, if you really disagree with the direction that BW/EA is going, don't buy their products. People, we don't always have to preorder or buy new right away. I have bought many a BW game brand new off the shelf and many out the bargain bin and enjoyed some more than others.

[PrussianBlue]

After I saw what Woo wrote here. Really? I mean like, really? This is my goodbye from Bioware. Just wow at that.

[crazyrabbits]

kbct wrote...

Sith Reaper wrote...

kbct wrote...

I've been on and off these forums since BG2 and have never seen anything close to this.

ME2 had similar backlash, believe it or not.

Ya gotta go back and read the thread. There is lots of evidence to the contrary.

Yeah, it was practically paradise compared to the situation here.

But I respect Mr. Woo's comments.

[Stanley Woo]

Icesong wrote...

I'm not trying to pick a fight or be contrary here. I literally have
this (or similar) conversation with parts of our community many times
after the release of every product.

Do you think it's possible then that this is skewing your perspective to why this time it isn't your standard nerdrage? 

Most anything is possible.

[Biff the Understudy]

Aetius5 wrote...

Of course Death's Hand, errr Stanley Woo is an authority figure. 

An Important distinction. You'd never catch Stanley Woo getting spirit-bound by some uppity monk.

[addiction21]

Drake_Hound wrote...

@addiction do you really want a answer for that ?
well here is the answer you call those people statistics .
Predictable statistics , since they are not bound by loyalty .

those are called casual gamers , which modern day publishers get there income from

Everybody is a statistic.

No they are called gamers. Gamers never signed some contract that they will only ever purchase a single type of game. That they would only be loyal to one type of game or company.

"casual" is nothing but one more of those arbirtary groups people like to use to throw mud at.