713 réponses à ce sujet

[JamesMoriarty123]

I have to agree. I've never seen this amount of press coverage or outright rage than what's happening regarding ME3.

Denying it is kinda silly, it's fairly obvious that this is THE biggest outcry regarding a game. I've been gaming for nigh on 20 years, and I've never seen anything like it.

Also, I'll fix something for you before I go :-

People got angry when DA2 came out because it was a terrible, broken game.
This isn't the place to list it's many, many flaws, suffice it to say, it was easily the worst game out of Bioware.

Modifié par JamesMoriarty123, 12 avril 2012 - 07:27 .

[DigitalAvatar]

Faust1979 wrote...
I've been on and off the forums since 2003 after the release of Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic and I remember the hate on the forums for it. Every since that release every single game has had an up roar of some of the fans that will go on for a few months before people stop caring. Then get angry all over again when a new game comes out. The Mass Effect games are like an anology for these boards a never ending cycle.

The fan-rage reaction happens in any franchise that fans are heavily invested in. For example, Doctor Who - almost every new actor who plays the Doctor gets booed before they start; but afterwards people recognise that although different, the new guys are really good (even jerk-ass Colin Baker grew on the audience!)
Same with BioWare games: Fans may start concerned that the new game lacks something, but quickly come to appreciate what the game does have and enjoy that.
But that doesn't apply with the reaction we're seeing at the moment. We don't see a great deal of complaining about the numerous areas in which Mass Effect 3 is weaker than its predecessors, we see focused objection to a very specific aspect of the game. And it's not something that fans are going to get used to and come to realise its better features, because the problem in this case is a fundamental failure of narrative and gameplay.

Modifié par DigitalAvatar, 12 avril 2012 - 07:37 .

[Rabid Rooster]

DigitalAvatar wrote...

Faust1979 wrote...
I've been on and off the forums since 2003 after the release of Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic and I remember the hate on the forums for it. Every since that release every single game has had an up roar of some of the fans that will go on for a few months before people stop caring. Then get angry all over again when a new game comes out. The Mass Effect games are like an anology for these boards a never ending cycle.

The fan-rage reaction happens in any franchise that fans are heavily invested in. For example, Doctor Who - almost every new actor who plays the Doctor gets booed before they start; but afterwards people recognise that although different, the new guys are really good.
Same with BioWare games: Fans may start concerned that the game lacks something, but quickly come to appreciate what the game does have and enjoy that.
But that doesn't apply with the reaction we're seeing at the moment. We don't see a great deal of complaining about the numerous areas in which Mass Effect 3 is weaker than its predecessors, we see focused objection to a very specific aspect of the game. And it's not something that fans are going to get used to and come to realise its redeeming features.

Well said.

[ShinsFortress]

Stanley Woo wrote...
Despite what some people might tell you, and please forgive the childish tone, but "you're not the boss of us." You do not have veto power, decision-making power, or direction power, over BioWare regardless of how much money you spent on our products or how many bioWare games you've played in your gaming life.

Not directly, no.  So I thus find Stanley's statement -in this case- overly simplistic.

AlanC9 wrote...
The difference between ME3 and, say, the NWN OC or DA2 is that you can do a DLC that will fix the game for a fair percentage of players with a problem. The other games would have needed a total restructuring.

I understand that.  In cases where literally nothing in the game can be changed, I would settle for a decent apology.  If I am in a tiny minority, I move on until I find something else I am happy with.  If, as is the case with ME3, I am not in a small group then I expect more.

There are other options.  A free expansion is one.  Trials of the Luremaster may be remembered by a few people on here.  It was an attempt to redress criticism of the Heart of Winter expansion for Icewind Dale.  I am a PC gamer, so I appreciate that not all things are/were possible on all platforms.

It is unlikely I will ever be happy with ME3 now.  I hold out some hope for a while, before I decide what's next.  I wanted a new/better endings sequence.  We now know that I will not get it.  I also do not expect Ray M to retract his statement and put out a less bullish defense, by way of apology.  Do you follow what appears to be Stanley and most of Bioware's stance that we are not owed an actual apology?  That's up to you.  I believe we are, due to the magnitude -in both absolute and relative terms- of the amount of unhappiness ME3's ending has caused.  I also admit that there are far worse and more important things in the world to be unhappy about, but we're not discussing those here!

Modifié par ShinsFortress, 12 avril 2012 - 08:45 .

[Terror_K]

Stanley... you say that you've dealt with criticism in the wake of every BioWare game you've dealt with since you've been part of it. That's fine, that's all very well and good... but how many of those previous cases were complaints where people had issues with the games themselves because they didn't like the style or gameplay, and how many were cases where the complaints were dissatisfaction due to outright lies on BioWare's part about the game?

And you question as to how you can discuss things with us when we don't trust what you say, but I'd like to ask exactly what it is about BioWare these days that we should trust. Are we honestly supposed to believe that this is a "boy who cried 'wolf'" situation here where after all the spin, deception and outright lies on BioWare's part, we're suddenly supposed to take it all in good faith and believe you guys? Especially when so often it seems you guys seem to utterly miss the point and claim your listening, only to illustrate that you aren't?

Trust is an earned thing, Stanley... not just something you get. Perhaps when you guys start saying things and they largely turn out to be true without exception we might start believing you again, but lately... it's just been too much. Almost NONE of the major claims about ME3 were true. It wasn't even just PR speak, it was just outright lies with no truth to it at all.

[philippe willaume]

Hello

Well this fanrage is really more based on the quality of the execution than the feeling about the artistic direction of ending.

I have worked in software support for 20 years, product don’t always works as well as the marketing brochures says and yes In a way it is easier to deal with as when working to a software vendor you can always says that yes it a bug and I will raise a bug ticket with engineering and here is the work-around.

So first thanks to talking part in the conversation, I know exactly how tricky the exercise is. The fanrage is not like a duke nukem forever or even like the DA:2 and whilst I totally agree that there always be a certain amount of flack for a sequel being different of its predecessor, I am not certain there was any significant amount of fanrage for skyrim, KoA, Battlefield 3 and the witcher II.

There are several aspects of the ending that are badly exposed and ME3 up to the ending was really good at exposition and contextualisation. So it is king of a double whammy and it makes the ending looks sloppy and under-par compared to the rest of the game.

If we compare the end of Miranda story arc (or any companion story arc that is getting resolved during the game) to the ending of the game, it is clear that there is massive difference in presentation.
The net result is that there are really 2 ways that can end but because of the presentation and contextualisation it feels more like 5-6 different endings.
It takes in account the previous decisions and put them in context in the resolution of the current situation and we have closure of the story arc. In other word it fells fully fleshed out.

Sure there is an element of subjectivity in the perception of the endings but equally we need to recognise that the subjectivity is feed or even born from the lack of exposition and contextualisation of the ending.

For example the LI are not always mentioned in the flash back.
How we dealt with TIM or the geth has bearing on the different endings so for the play through to make sense each ending need to contextualise the result according to the play though.
This not the same as saying that the choices must affect the actual outcome, this is of the resort of artistic direction, but since BW changed the paradigm of the story, it falls on BW to tell us of what we have done so far fits with that new paradigm.

I understand the need to drive the story in the direction you want however in ME3 this is done at the cost of the integrity of the main protagonist as a character. If we transpose the interaction with the Star-child in ME:3 to the ME2 it is as if Sheppard go back to the Normandy because harbinger told him/her that he can’t be defeated.

It is easy to see that comment as “your are not happy with how it ends” but that would be simply wrong.
I don’t really care about a way to change how it ends but I care if my character put up the same fight he has put up during the whole series.


It will do me but at the stage we are on, I am not sure that a simple exposition and contextualisation will be enough.


Philippe

[kbct]

AndroLeonidas wrote...

I have two published Sci-fi novels and four completed books in a series of eight that are Sci-fi/fantasy original fiction, none of which are less than a thousand pages each. I do have some knowledge of a fan base and the need to communicate with them. I communicate with my fans almost on a daily basis answering questions in regards to the universe I created and such, so I would be very willing to discuss things if you or Bioware were able to provide information.

...

I don't believe it is so much what we think we deserve... it is more what Bioware led us to believe over the course of three games that our Shepard deserves.

Bitter sweet is one thing... just plain bitter is another animnal all together.

Damn, you wrote four books each over one thousand pages long? Impressive.

Mr. Woo, so many experts from so many fields say the same thing about the ending. It's bad. We're not kids from our parents' basement either. There are plenty of successful professionals here.

It would be nice for you, Mr. Woo, to admit that while the backlash over the ME3 is not greater that all other games COMBINED, it is greater than anything we've ever seen. It would also be nice for you admit the ending was objectively bad. Personally, I give the ending an F+. The + is because I like BioWare.

[LohnPondai]

Ive seen gamers dissapointed about a game, but never saw anything this bad. In my social circle (friends, local gaming stores, etc) theres a general consensus that the ending was atrocious and undeserved. I dont think it can compare to any game release i can recall.

That said... I do think in a certain way we have to thank Bioware for making such a good game that we really care about what the hell happened. I mean... after experiencing the end i can swear i was a bit sad and moody for a few days. Listening to the game's wonderful OST like End Once for All, or Lost Without You made me feel bad... You see... I dont think ive ever felt that way about a game.

[masterthehero]

Dear Mr. Woo,

Kudos for holding your ground, if there's one thing I learned about these communities is that as the years go on, they become more and more extreme in their thoughts as to what's important and what's not. It's a little bit scary actually, that some "fans" start equating the ending of a video game, with terrorism or genocide.

They've taken hyperbole to the extreme and claim that EA games is the worst company in the world and that Bioware's ending was worse than 9/11. At this point, I question whether it's still possible to discuss rationally with these types of people, who do exist. I mean, EA taking worst company, when Bank of America forecloses on people and considers charging fees to use your debit cards? I don't think they understand that R/L is more important than a videogame.

It makes me concerned that the anonymity of the internet, fans are becoming overly passionate, and therefore overly deranged and self entitled. (Not expecting you to comment on this sentence, this is just my own opinion.)

The ending for me personally, it didn't bother me as much as I thought it would. I was expecting something horrific when I finally got to the end, instead it was just something that was 'meh, it's all right.' I guess I was more enamored with the journey of my Shepard than I was with the end of the game, so I really didn't understand all the fuss that came from the endings. Then to see the retake movement formed and reporting to the BBB, things have just gotten way out of control.

Especially when there are games with far worse endings, (Kane & Lynch 2 anyone?) I'm surprised the fans didn't protest and ask the ending changed for that game.

[garf]

Faust1979 wrote...

I've been on and off the forums since 2003 after the release of Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic and I remember the hate on the forums for it. Every since that release every single game has had an up roar of some of the fans that will go on for a few months before people stop caring. Then get angry all over again when a new game comes out. The Mass Effect games are like an anology for these boards a never ending cycle.

I've never bothered to post to any forums though have raved in person to friends about how great bioware game are so far. Whatever demographic you think you're seeing. I'm not part of it. My 'rage' (your word) is something new to this game.

[Gigamantis]

The biggest companies with the best selling games will always have the most haters. This is basically Bioware's welcome to the big times. The more "fan" hate you receive the better you're doing. Not surprisingly ME3 is the biggest hit Bioware has ever had and it generated the most hate. 

Modifié par Gigamantis, 12 avril 2012 - 03:41 .

[Forsythia]

People are obviously raging because they care a lot about these games and expect that typical BioWare AAA status with every release. (with exceptions of course)

I think it's interesting to see Stanley's comments in this thread. I don't agree with everything, but it's great to see him shedding some light on BioWare's side of things. Thanks, Stanley.

I also want to say I really do see BioWare listening to the fans, I mean, almost every little thing that annoyed me in ME2 has been removed or altered in ME3. Or the inclusion of the Tali and Garrus romance in ME2. Or the homosexual relationship options in ME3. The jokes about something like the disappearance of omnigel in ME2 (LotSB) or Garrus' calibrations in ME3. It shows the developers listen and see what the fans are talking about. Open your eyes, people. I don't like the ending (hence the sig), but saying BioWare does not listen to the fans is absolutely not true.

Modifié par Forsythia, 12 avril 2012 - 03:45 .

[Tirigon]

Stanley Woo wrote...

People got angry when NWN came out and it wasn't BG.
People got angry when KotOR came out because it was a console game.
People got angry when Jade Empire came out because it was a different setting, and it was an action RPG.
People got angry when Mass Effect came out because it was a shooter.
People got angry when Dragon Age: Origins came out because it wasn't BG.
People got angry when DA2 came out because it wasn't DAO.
People got angry when ME2 came out because it wasn't ME1.
And now people are angry at ME3.

The cycle will continue as long as people feel they have an inalienable right to never be disappointed, or that their money entitles them to be rude or condescending to others, or that their opinions are the only, best, or right ones.

That is not only a cynical but also not an accurate view of what happens.

But, assuming that this is not merely your personal but BioWare's official opinion on the matter, it would explain a lot.

[Gigamantis]

Tirigon wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

People got angry when NWN came out and it wasn't BG.
People got angry when KotOR came out because it was a console game.
People got angry when Jade Empire came out because it was a different setting, and it was an action RPG.
People got angry when Mass Effect came out because it was a shooter.
People got angry when Dragon Age: Origins came out because it wasn't BG.
People got angry when DA2 came out because it wasn't DAO.
People got angry when ME2 came out because it wasn't ME1.
And now people are angry at ME3.

The cycle will continue as long as people feel they have an inalienable right to never be disappointed, or that their money entitles them to be rude or condescending to others, or that their opinions are the only, best, or right ones.

That is not only a cynical but also not an accurate view of what happens.

But, assuming that this is not merely your personal but BioWare's official opinion on the matter, it would explain a lot.

How is it not accurate?  I've personally watched that exact cycle he described happen for every one of those releases.  People complaining isn't some new phenomenon we're experiencing for the first time here.  This was only bigger because ME3 was a bigger release.  More sales ultimately equals more people complaining. 

Modifié par Gigamantis, 12 avril 2012 - 04:00 .

[Tirigon]

Gigamantis wrote...

How is it not accurate?  I've personally watched that exact cycle he described happen for every one of those releases.  People complaining isn't some new phenomenon we're experiencing for the first time here.  This was only bigger because ME3 was a bigger release.  More sales ultimately equals more people complaining. 

Well I joined only with DAO so I cant judge what happened before, but I can say that there was very little criticism for it, and those for DA2 and ME2 were not simple "It's not DAO / ME1" but very valid concerns, and if BioWare would have listened to them ME3 would not have turned out like it did.

[Drake_Hound]

@masterhero that would have been my statement a week days ago ...
But since I imported my savegame and something that meant something to me .
I reach the ending a 2nd time , while the journey was more then satisfying the changes with the save very noticable .

It does not explain the sudden lost of control at the end , where everything was made irrelevant.
No matter what you did in the game , the only thing missing was my ability to just murder random people , and still it wouldn't have made a impact on the ending .

the worst of all was the inability to even harm the cataclyst , but being forced to choose 3 choices that didn't make sense .
Basically you can say you like the ending can you explain what you like about it , especially since the journey was more then worthwhile .

[hoorayforicecream]

Gigamantis wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

People got angry when NWN came out and it wasn't BG.
People got angry when KotOR came out because it was a console game.
People got angry when Jade Empire came out because it was a different setting, and it was an action RPG.
People got angry when Mass Effect came out because it was a shooter.
People got angry when Dragon Age: Origins came out because it wasn't BG.
People got angry when DA2 came out because it wasn't DAO.
People got angry when ME2 came out because it wasn't ME1.
And now people are angry at ME3.

The cycle will continue as long as people feel they have an inalienable right to never be disappointed, or that their money entitles them to be rude or condescending to others, or that their opinions are the only, best, or right ones.

That is not only a cynical but also not an accurate view of what happens.

But, assuming that this is not merely your personal but BioWare's official opinion on the matter, it would explain a lot.

How is it not accurate?  I've personally watched that exact cycle he described happen for every one of those releases.  People complaining isn't some new phenomenon we're experiencing for the first time here.  This was only bigger because ME3 was a bigger release.  More sales ultimately equals more people complaining. 

I wouldn't say that's the *only* reason that the ME3 complaints are bigger, but it is certainly one of the reasons. Mass Effect's fanbase has grown with each game, and that means more invested fans that come to the forums.

[hoorayforicecream]

Tirigon wrote...

Well I joined only with DAO so I cant judge what happened before, but I can say that there was very little criticism for it, and those for DA2 and ME2 were not simple "It's not DAO / ME1" but very valid concerns, and if BioWare would have listened to them ME3 would not have turned out like it did.

There was *massive* complaining about DAO for months, both pre and post release.

[Nicodemus]

masterthehero wrote...

 At this point, I question whether it's still possible to discuss rationally with these types of people, who do exist. I mean, EA taking worst company, when Bank of America forecloses on people and considers charging fees to use your debit cards? I don't think they understand that R/L is more important than a videogame.

And therein lies the crux of the matter. There are a lot of people who are playing games as a release from the bad things that are going on in RL. It is their moment of escape from the burdens of what is a very bad time for a lot of people. What they don't need is a game that is supposed to be fun and supposedly a satisfying conclusion to all the time spent getting to the end, being ruined by the quite abrupt and confusing ending. 

It is perfectly ok for people to like the endings but it is also well within the rights of others to call Bioware out on what seems to be a continuing trend of rushing games to meet the demands of EA. Some of the actions that people are taking are extreme, while others are quite understated and very clever. However if they wish to protest then it is well within their rights to do so.

A lot of this hooha may well have been avoided if Bioware had actually communicated with it's fans. It still seems to be in a bunker mentality with regards to being open. Patrick Weekes has come away with more kudos than the rest of the Bioware team currently because he actually spoke to people in a measured and informative manner in a fan interview. All it would have taken for most of the fan frustrtation to be calmed down was something similar being said a lot earlier, rather than all the PR double speak and twitter teasing.

[Kargsure]

There will always be people that will dislike a game - no matter what it is or how good it is or isn't, as the saying goes "you can't please all the people all the time".

However that being said, the vast majority of the fans that dislike the ending, are not saying we dislike ME3 - in fact many (if not most) of us are saying the exact opposite - I personally loved ME3 - sure it wasn't perfect, but it far exceeded any expectations I had before it's release...that is right up until the ending...that one tiny part of the whole is what I take exception to, and if it wasn't the ending sequence (which should be the pinacle of the series imo), but rather occurred earlier in the game, the backlash probably wouldn't have been quite so bad, but an epic tale deserves an epic ending (and yes the hero dying can still be epic), in this case it feel far short of what Bioware has shown us they are capable of producing.

As for the issue of continued discussion with the fans being difficult because we currently don't trust Bioware or it's employees at present, the only answer is exactly that continued discussion with the fans. If you (meaning Bioware not Mr. Woo as an individual), keep coming back and giv3 us clear, honest statements which are verifiable by us, then our trust will return. It was in fact the complete opposite (the raft of statements made which were later proved to be at best misleading and at worst completely untrue) that caused the loss of trust in the first place.

At our core, we are fans who have seen the great things that Bioware is capable of, and more than anything we want to see those things again in the future - but until we do, we're no longer willing to blindly trust that the vision that Bioware has is right for us. Fixing what many of us perceive to be fundamental flaws in the ending would go a long way to restoring our faith in you as a company. If "bittersweet" is the way you choose to go, that's your perogative, and I'm personally fine with that (I was even expecting it from Mass Effect 3 to be honest), just be sure you do it in a way that makes sense within the context of the Universe you have created and the characters we have created within the framework of that Universe.

Modifié par Kargsure, 12 avril 2012 - 04:20 .

[Thoth_Amon]

People got mad at DA2 because it was horrible. Full price for such a shoddy, incomplete product is essentially stealing money from people.

[Destr1er]

The game was very good, and excecuted well. The fan backlash stems from the ending which was very bad compared to the rest of the game.
You have to remember that people had 5 years of their lives invested into this series, and ending in such a weak and broken manner was pretty anti-climactic.

[Kuari999]

Gigamantis wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

People got angry when NWN came out and it wasn't BG.
People got angry when KotOR came out because it was a console game.
People got angry when Jade Empire came out because it was a different setting, and it was an action RPG.
People got angry when Mass Effect came out because it was a shooter.
People got angry when Dragon Age: Origins came out because it wasn't BG.
People got angry when DA2 came out because it wasn't DAO.
People got angry when ME2 came out because it wasn't ME1.
And now people are angry at ME3.

The cycle will continue as long as people feel they have an inalienable right to never be disappointed, or that their money entitles them to be rude or condescending to others, or that their opinions are the only, best, or right ones.

That is not only a cynical but also not an accurate view of what happens.

But, assuming that this is not merely your personal but BioWare's official opinion on the matter, it would explain a lot.

How is it not accurate?  I've personally watched that exact cycle he described happen for every one of those releases.  People complaining isn't some new phenomenon we're experiencing for the first time here.  This was only bigger because ME3 was a bigger release.  More sales ultimately equals more people complaining. 

It ignores the big picture, and I sure as hell didn't see the coverage this is getting.  I'm going to be blunt...  most major reviewers do NOT play the full game before giving their report.  There's also a lot of major reviewers that avoid going against those they get revenue from.  You can tell a good reviewer by the ones that look at the good AND the bad, even in the games they find amazing, because there are ALWAYS going to be some flaws.  The ones that I've seen that do that have more commonly agreed that this is a bit screwed up.  There are exceptions honestly, but you don't normally find this kind of consistancy.

The sheer fact of the matter is, when you look at every little detail of this situation, its NOT the isolated opinion of the minority, and its NOT a common matter.  I guarantee that almost every survey on this subject will turn out in a similar way.  In fact, I'd love to see some college students put out surveys to the gamers in their college.  Come on, I know some of you guys should have some sort of class that requires putting out surveys.  If you need an idea, there it is, have fun

[Thoth_Amon]

Destr1er wrote...

The game was very good, and excecuted well. The fan backlash stems from the ending which was very bad compared to the rest of the game.

Scanning fetch quests and re-using mp maps for single player missions is not executing well.