713 réponses à ce sujet

[Kuari999]

Gigamantis wrote...
First, there's definitely a ton of cross-over between forum communities for games.  Second, niche games like Dark Souls have small communities and less complaining, but it's definitely there.  I'm also not saying that forums are all complainers, but that's definitely what forums attract in disproportionate numbers.  This is especially true with high-profile games.   

Some communities are worse than others and some games have bigger issues than others, but the slant on forums is always the same persistant negativity.  People are just far more likely to seek out a place to express themselves when they're angry.

Also, sales are the only real gauge of opinion, barring external circumstances that would drastically alter them.  Mass Effect 3 sold very well day 1 despite the ending leaking and the "fans" pre-emptively attacking the game on review sites.  The game has seen continued success and is the fastest selling game in Bioware's history.  If it were the majority of their MILLIONS of customers it would be hurting a lot more than it is. 

1.5 million shipped is considered niche?  That's a pretty sizeable number for a game and it sold quite a great deal of those copies.

Seriously though, you've completely lost it if you think release sales indicate opinion at all beyond the feeling on marketing and the company's reputation.  Even then its shaky.  Sales don't work that way.  Anyone with even a high school education in business can tell you how a bad product can sell like crazy.  The only thing the release sales tell us was that people loved the previous Mass Effect games and told their friends about them as well as marketing having a positive effect.  Anything involving opinion comes AFTER initial sales.

[kbct]

Kuari999 wrote...

EHondaMashButton wrote...

Gigamantis wrote...

Sales are a far more accurate gauge than any poll you see on a forum. 

How are sales more accurate?  You don't reach the ending or form an opinion until you've already paid your money and its already been counted as a sale.    The first 2 weeks is marketing and preorders, the rest of it is reviews and word of mouth from friends & the internet.

Exactly...  shareholders and execs only care about sales because that's how they get their money, but shortsightedness by believing its the only thing(or even the main thing) that matters is risking the death of the business.  Reputation gains sales.  Betraying that reputation doesn't break initial sales, it risks future sales.

Yup, sales is a lagging indicator. An investor is always looking at discounted future earnings.

Besides, we're not gonna even see actual sales figures. The sales figures we see are estimates from VGChartz who have been known to wildy revise their estimates. And we won't know how many units have been sold, how many they need to sell to breakeven, how many units have been returned, or how the discounting will affect the profit margin.

The biggest problem is assuming ME3 needs to sell the same amount of units as ME2 to breakeven and start making a profit. I highly doubt that is the case here.

Modifié par kbct, 12 avril 2012 - 09:33 .

[kbct]

Gigamantis wrote...

kbct wrote...

Gigamantis wrote...

Forums have always been the primary outlet of people who are angry or disatisfied while the vast majority of players never bother to comment or even visit.

Then why did over 80% of the people like ME2 if everyone here is angry or dissatisfied?

Give me the date and context of the poll and I'll tell you. 

The poll was started a week after the release of ME2:

http://social.biowar...093/polls/1659/

Let's hear the spin. Why did they like it?

Modifié par kbct, 12 avril 2012 - 09:39 .

[Woodstock-TC]

Stanley Woo wrote...

kbct wrote...

Atakuma wrote...

VGchartz estimates 3.4 mullion units sold, of course you aren't going to mention that because it doesn't enforce your argument.

Mr. Woo, how many units have been sold? What is your breakeven? How many returns? What does discounting do to your profit margin?

This one's easy.

Not disclosed.
None of your business.
None of your business.
Mathematically, reduces it, assuming initial cost of production remains constant.

maybe its best to remain on your playground though. 

http://investor.ea.com/ 
numbers coming with the Q4 update.

best,
wood

Modifié par Woodstock-TC, 12 avril 2012 - 10:48 .

[Gigamantis]

kbct wrote...

Gigamantis wrote...

kbct wrote...

Gigamantis wrote...

Forums have always been the primary outlet of people who are angry or disatisfied while the vast majority of players never bother to comment or even visit.

Then why did over 80% of the people like ME2 if everyone here is angry or dissatisfied?

Give me the date and context of the poll and I'll tell you. 

The poll was started a week after the release of ME2:

http://social.biowar...093/polls/1659/

Let's hear the spin. Why did they like it?

The people who voted on the poll probably liked the game.

What I've been saying is that if there's an issue all the people who are angry will go out of their way to participate in polls and forums while the rest won't bother.  Why do you think in these forum 99% of the focus is on the ending while
other aspects of the game are all but completely undiscussed?  How much conversation is there on the positive aspects of the game? 

ME2's trigger issue wasn't whether people liked the game; most admit ME3 is a good game as well.  Create the right poll about ME2 after release and it would be easy to draw out the complainers. 

[Gigamantis]

Kuari999 wrote...

Gigamantis wrote...
First, there's definitely a ton of cross-over between forum communities for games.  Second, niche games like Dark Souls have small communities and less complaining, but it's definitely there.  I'm also not saying that forums are all complainers, but that's definitely what forums attract in disproportionate numbers.  This is especially true with high-profile games.   

Some communities are worse than others and some games have bigger issues than others, but the slant on forums is always the same persistant negativity.  People are just far more likely to seek out a place to express themselves when they're angry.

Also, sales are the only real gauge of opinion, barring external circumstances that would drastically alter them.  Mass Effect 3 sold very well day 1 despite the ending leaking and the "fans" pre-emptively attacking the game on review sites.  The game has seen continued success and is the fastest selling game in Bioware's history.  If it were the majority of their MILLIONS of customers it would be hurting a lot more than it is. 

1.5 million shipped is considered niche?  That's a pretty sizeable number for a game and it sold quite a great deal of those copies.

Seriously though, you've completely lost it if you think release sales indicate opinion at all beyond the feeling on marketing and the company's reputation.  Even then its shaky.  Sales don't work that way.  Anyone with even a high school education in business can tell you how a bad product can sell like crazy.  The only thing the release sales tell us was that people loved the previous Mass Effect games and told their friends about them as well as marketing having a positive effect.  Anything involving opinion comes AFTER initial sales.

ME3's ending was leaked well before it hit store shelves, and that could've easily broken week 1 sales if it was really a majority of their, again, MILLIONS of customers who purchased the game.  Beyond that before ME3 we had DA2 as the previous "biggest betrayal in gaming history," so Bioware wasn't just riding a wave of good will. 

Also, a bad product can absolutely sell like crazy because many bad products become popular.  I'm not saying high sales prove that ME3 was an amazing game, I'm saying they indicate that it may not have been the majority that couldn't stomach the ending. 

I'm not pretending I know, though, and with nothing but forum polls behind your opinions you shouldn't be pretending either.  Week 1 sales after the leaked ending hit the public is far more substantial than horribly conducted, completely unserviceable polls.  

[Overule]

I've noticed the mods have no problem letting meta-complaints about their detractors run rampant. Not exactly surprising...

[RoninTX]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Science?

Seriously, though, I understand why some people make the comments that they do. I've been in this business 11 years and seen the community side of things for almost that long. I have seen this community through every major release since 2002 and made my share of mistteps, misstatements and been called into a couple of Official Meetings™ regarding stuff I've said or arguments I've been a part of within and with this community.

I would hope that I am seen as somewhat of an authority figure here, and that none of my comments are intended to inflame, insult, belittle, or dismiss people's complaints. What I try to do is to get people to think about what and how they buy things, how they view and respond to marketing, and to encourage them to be more responsible with their consumerism. We developers are open to discussion, but we have to be somewhat on the same playing field in order for us to understand one another.

If we take our community for granted, we won't be able to make the kinds of games they're looking for. If the community takes us for granted, they're going to lose this valuable method of communicating directly with the very people making the games they want to play. I don't want either of those things to happen.

Stanley I can understand what you mean that neither of us should take eachother for granted, but I would like to say to have a discussion both sides first need to have a "standpoint" and then talk about it.
It is then on both sides responsibility to convince eachother to understand their standpoint. From you posts it feels like you are demanding/asking us to see it from Bioware's standpoint without explaining or convincing us.

Also as consumer I know my responsibility, but how can I know if I dislike or like ME3 without playing it? And not a single company in the netherlands will give me a FULL refund on a product which is opened, but defective in my opinion.

Bioware made quite a few official statements about how the game would be and those statements have not become true. When you say A but do B then you are "lying" from my standpoint.

This is a direct quote from Casey Hudson:
" It’s not even in any way like the traditional game endings, where you can say how many endings 
there are or whether you got ending A, B, or C.....The endings have a lot more sophistication and variety in them.”" 

Now I am quite curious why you think this statement is not a lie compared to the current ending of ME3.

[Gigamantis]

And not a single company in the netherlands will give me a FULL refund on a product which is opened, but defective in my opinion.

You want a refund because the product is defective "in your opinion"? You can't be serious ...

This kind of nonsense is why a company would be dismissive of you and your "standpoint" on the issue. You don't want to have a discussion, you just want to be passive aggressive and still be tolerated because you're a customer. There's no basis for false advertising so the FIRST thing you have to do is abandon that nonsense if you want to have a rapport with Bioware.

Ah yes, "all of that ^" we have dismissed that claim. Simple.

I have no idea what you're trying to say here.

Modifié par Gigamantis, 12 avril 2012 - 11:38 .

[Kuari999]

Gigamantis wrote...

ME3's ending was leaked well before it hit store shelves, and that could've easily broken week 1 sales if it was really a majority of their, again, MILLIONS of customers who purchased the game.  Beyond that before ME3 we had DA2 as the previous "biggest betrayal in gaming history," so Bioware wasn't just riding a wave of good will. 

Also, a bad product can absolutely sell like crazy because many bad products become popular.  I'm not saying high sales prove that ME3 was an amazing game, I'm saying they indicate that it may not have been the majority that couldn't stomach the ending. 

I'm not pretending I know, though, and with nothing but forum polls behind your opinions you shouldn't be pretending either.  Week 1 sales after the leaked ending hit the public is far more substantial than horribly conducted, completely unserviceable polls.  

Except most people took the leak as a load of garbage.  The ending hitting is what triggered things full swing.  Frankly, the polls show a lot more than sales could, its the other factors that really make it hit home.  If you want to ignore those, that's your call.  Organization like this doesn't go anywhere though without A LOT of backing.  Far more people keep silent about their complaints then come forward.  I will admit, its not 100% certain that a majority hate the ending, but going by all the information I have, its hard to see it being otherwise.  There's the polls, there's the facebook membership for Retake, there's the day to day conversations irl I have, it goes on

[woodbyte]

Gigamantis wrote...
(...)

Ah yes, "all of that ^" we have dismissed that claim. Simple.

I have no idea what you're trying to say here.

It's an oooold ME meme, I'm surprised you don't recognize it.
Wait.. PS3 is it? No that makes perfect sense.

Modifié par woodbyte, 12 avril 2012 - 11:48 .

[RoninTX]

Gigamantis wrote...

And not a single company in the netherlands will give me a FULL refund on a product which is opened, but defective in my opinion.

You want a refund because the product is defective "in your opinion"? You can't be serious ...

This kind of nonsense is why a company would be dismissive of you and your "standpoint" on the issue. You don't want to have a discussion, you just want to be passive aggressive and still be tolerated because you're a customer. There's no basis for false advertising so the FIRST thing you have to do is abandon that nonsense if you want to have a rapport with Bioware.

true enough, I will rephrase it.

The product does not do what the maker said it would do and thus I view it as "defective", while the product does "run" I lack "parts" and "functions" which the maker of the product said would be there.

So yeah it is not defective, but it is not what I was led to believe bioware to buy.

Modifié par RoninTX, 12 avril 2012 - 11:50 .

[Gigamantis]

Kuari999 wrote...

Gigamantis wrote...

ME3's ending was leaked well before it hit store shelves, and that could've easily broken week 1 sales if it was really a majority of their, again, MILLIONS of customers who purchased the game.  Beyond that before ME3 we had DA2 as the previous "biggest betrayal in gaming history," so Bioware wasn't just riding a wave of good will. 

Also, a bad product can absolutely sell like crazy because many bad products become popular.  I'm not saying high sales prove that ME3 was an amazing game, I'm saying they indicate that it may not have been the majority that couldn't stomach the ending. 

I'm not pretending I know, though, and with nothing but forum polls behind your opinions you shouldn't be pretending either.  Week 1 sales after the leaked ending hit the public is far more substantial than horribly conducted, completely unserviceable polls.  

Except most people took the leak as a load of garbage.  The ending hitting is what triggered things full swing.  Frankly, the polls show a lot more than sales could, its the other factors that really make it hit home.  If you want to ignore those, that's your call.  Organization like this doesn't go anywhere though without A LOT of backing.  Far more people keep silent about their complaints then come forward.  I will admit, its not 100% certain that a majority hate the ending, but going by all the information I have, its hard to see it being otherwise.  There's the polls, there's the facebook membership for Retake, there's the day to day conversations irl I have, it goes on

Metacritic was trashed within hours of release based on the leak.  The polls only show more if we can assume they're objective and untainted, and we can't even come close to doing that.  The problem is you assume you have valid information but you don't.  You have nothing because there's nothing to substantiate the information you have.  While information about sales is inconclusive it's at least semi-verified and from an official source. 

The only verifiable opinions you have to work with are likely in the hundreds.  They're people you've talked to and people who have written things expressing their opinions.  The information you have to work with is painfully inadequate to claim the majority with.

Modifié par Gigamantis, 13 avril 2012 - 12:01 .

[Gigamantis]

RoninTX wrote...

Gigamantis wrote...

And not a single company in the netherlands will give me a FULL refund on a product which is opened, but defective in my opinion.

You want a refund because the product is defective "in your opinion"? You can't be serious ...

This kind of nonsense is why a company would be dismissive of you and your "standpoint" on the issue. You don't want to have a discussion, you just want to be passive aggressive and still be tolerated because you're a customer. There's no basis for false advertising so the FIRST thing you have to do is abandon that nonsense if you want to have a rapport with Bioware.

true enough, I will rephrase it.

The product does not do what the maker said it would do and thus I view it as "defective", while the product does "run" I lack "parts" and "functions" which the maker of the product said would be there.

So yeah it is not defective, but it is not what I was led to believe bioware to buy.

It's fair to accuse Bioware of overstating the variety in the ending, but that's about it.  It was misleading, as hype often is, and if that kind of exaggeration is something that might cost Bioware your patronage I'm sure they would be interested to know that. 

Don't make grandiose legal accusations about fraud and false advertising, because it makes you look like a sensationalist who is trying to vent or wants bad attention.  Be intelligent and people will respect you enough to listen to you. 

[Kuari999]

Gigamantis wrote...

Metacritic was trashed within hours of release based on the leak.  The polls only show more if we can assume they're objective and untainted, and we can't even come close to doing that.  The problem is you assume you have valid information but you don't.  You have nothing because there's nothing to substantiate the information you have.  While information about sales is inconclusive it's at least semi-verified and from an official source. 

The only verifiable opinions you have to work with are likely in the hundreds.  They're people you've talked to and people who have written things expressing their opinions.  The information you have to work with is painfully inadequate to claim the majority with.

You're expecting an unrealistic margin of error though.  Worst case scenario?  Eliminate half the votes...  that's still an ugly situation and being VERY generous, because in all seriousness, the only place you're going to get the attention of gamers with a gaming poll is on a gaming website and since its a poll about BioWare, there is literally nowhere online where you're going to get a more accurate representation.  Do people come here to complain, well sure, but they also come to talk.

As for metacritic...  that site is a constant target of 4chan.  All someone has to do is post "attack here" pretty much and you get a flood of hell.  If you filter out the 0s and 1s and such, generally you get closer to a reasonable score to some extent.

[Homebound]

Stanley Woo wrote...
-snip-
People got angry when DA2 came out because it wasn't DAO.
People got angry when ME2 came out because it wasn't ME1.

you should think on that some more.

[Gigamantis]

Kuari999 wrote...

Gigamantis wrote...

Metacritic was trashed within hours of release based on the leak.  The polls only show more if we can assume they're objective and untainted, and we can't even come close to doing that.  The problem is you assume you have valid information but you don't.  You have nothing because there's nothing to substantiate the information you have.  While information about sales is inconclusive it's at least semi-verified and from an official source. 

The only verifiable opinions you have to work with are likely in the hundreds.  They're people you've talked to and people who have written things expressing their opinions.  The information you have to work with is painfully inadequate to claim the majority with.

You're expecting an unrealistic margin of error though.  Worst case scenario?  Eliminate half the votes...  that's still an ugly situation and being VERY generous, because in all seriousness, the only place you're going to get the attention of gamers with a gaming poll is on a gaming website and since its a poll about BioWare, there is literally nowhere online where you're going to get a more accurate representation.  Do people come here to complain, well sure, but they also come to talk.

As for metacritic...  that site is a constant target of 4chan.  All someone has to do is post "attack here" pretty much and you get a flood of hell.  If you filter out the 0s and 1s and such, generally you get closer to a reasonable score to some extent.

Whether metacritic was 4chan or not that was the epicenter of the backlash and it started before the game was even released.  To believe this massive amount of trolls just disappeared after that, and these current floods on websites are all new, fair-minded people, is absurd.  I'm not claiming they're the minority but I am saying that a determined, coordinated minority can easily out-vote the majority on the internet.  That's why there is nowhere online you're going to get an accurate representation.

As for forums themselves, when there is something to complain about forums are way more active and the content of discussion is majority complaints.  Some people are just there to talk but they get overrun fast by hordes of complainers when there's a looming complaint.  That's how forums are. 

Modifié par Gigamantis, 13 avril 2012 - 01:11 .

[Sarcastic]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Or I disagree with it. The internet heightens emotion and exaggerates quite a lot. I do agree that the situation has prompted BioWare to respond, but "more rage... than with any other game in the history [of] video games COMBINED"? Disagree.

I think that through the long running interactive story that the ME series is, people were more attached and emotionally vested in the outcome. Regardless of whether or not individual gamers "owned" their Shepard or their story is irrelevent. The actions that brought players close to their Shepard is the same as someone becomes close and invested with anything. They spent time with it in emotionally engaging sessions spanning multiple years. So Bioware can pat themselves on the back, they created an emotionally engaging story though a video game that has a % of the fan base raging.

[Kuari999]

Gigamantis wrote...

Whether metacritic was 4chan or not that was the epicenter of the backlash and it started before the game was even released.  To believe this massive amount of trolls just disappeared after that, and these current floods on websites are all new, fair-minded people, is absurd.  I'm not claiming they're the minority but I am saying that a determined, coordinated minority can easily out-vote the majority on the internet.  That's why there is nowhere online you're going to get an accurate representation.

As for forums themselves, when there is something to complain about forums are way more active and the content of discussion is majority complaints.  Some people are just there to talk but they get overrun fast by hordes of complainers when there's a looming complaint.  That's how forums are. 

You obviously don't know 4chan...  nor how any of this really works.  Frankly, the same excuses get used constantly when someone is pressed against a wall online that it gets a bit tiring.  Being careful about what you trust has turned into trust nothing.  Frankly if you think forums are always like this, you go to some pretty messed up forums, or you blind yourself to everything other than the complaints, and in that situation, its impossible to convince anyone of anything.  I'm done trying to be reasonable with you.  Pretend all you want that this is meaningless banter.  With any luck, if the Extended Cut ends up being terrible, BioWare's next game will show the the result of this kind of thing.  If its decent, then well, they'll probably come out ok.  Guess I should have expected I couldn't change your mind if you didn't think something like the Normandy escape was a plothole, not to mention a character betrayal on the scale of Sherlock Holmes' death in The Final Problem.  Really wish you'd look into that controversy.  Maybe you'd start seeing the parallels.

[DigitalAvatar]

Gigamantis wrote...
There are no quality issues.  The ending was well written and well produced.  Some people thought there should be more options and more shouts to the decisions you made throughout the game.  That's fine, and many publications even brought that up in their reviews, but that's a taste issue. 

I haven't heard one plot-hole that didn't have an obvious explanation, but I guess that will boild down to opinion as well.  The false advertising claim is just hilarious.  10 potential endings are not ABC.  Besides the main 4 the endings weren't all that varied, and I can see people being disappointed by that, but false advertising?  Don't be absurd.

...how much is EA paying you? Seriously, how much?
If you're not on the payroll I am baffled as to how you cannot see the problem with pulling a new, unheralded character out of the project director and/or lead writer's ass, completely changing the direction of the plot in the last five minutes,  not allowing Shepard to challenge flawed logical assertions, forcing the player to accept one of three flavours of seriously uncreative space magic, introducing numerous unexplained plot holes, and ending with no closure on the results of your choice or the fate of your companions.
Well written and well produced? Are you mad?

And please don't try to justify Hudson's ABC statement with technicalities. Red, Blue, Green. A, B, and bloody C.

Modifié par DigitalAvatar, 13 avril 2012 - 01:42 .

[Gigamantis]

Kuari999 wrote...

Gigamantis wrote...

Whether metacritic was 4chan or not that was the epicenter of the backlash and it started before the game was even released.  To believe this massive amount of trolls just disappeared after that, and these current floods on websites are all new, fair-minded people, is absurd.  I'm not claiming they're the minority but I am saying that a determined, coordinated minority can easily out-vote the majority on the internet.  That's why there is nowhere online you're going to get an accurate representation.

As for forums themselves, when there is something to complain about forums are way more active and the content of discussion is majority complaints.  Some people are just there to talk but they get overrun fast by hordes of complainers when there's a looming complaint.  That's how forums are. 

You obviously don't know 4chan...  nor how any of this really works.  Frankly, the same excuses get used constantly when someone is pressed against a wall online that it gets a bit tiring.  Being careful about what you trust has turned into trust nothing.  Frankly if you think forums are always like this, you go to some pretty messed up forums, or you blind yourself to everything other than the complaints, and in that situation, its impossible to convince anyone of anything.  I'm done trying to be reasonable with you.  Pretend all you want that this is meaningless banter.  With any luck, if the Extended Cut ends up being terrible, BioWare's next game will show the the result of this kind of thing.  If its decent, then well, they'll probably come out ok.  Guess I should have expected I couldn't change your mind if you didn't think something like the Normandy escape was a plothole, not to mention a character betrayal on the scale of Sherlock Holmes' death in The Final Problem.  Really wish you'd look into that controversy.  Maybe you'd start seeing the parallels.

Ugh, you don't even know it was 4chan and I know members who claim it wasn't.  The forums I frequent are ones for all Blizzard games (WoW, SC2, DiabloIII) Skyrim and ME3 and both DA games.  Every time there's bad news it's ALL the forums are about for months.  You're purposely blinding yourself to it because you want this ME3 incident to be special, probably because you're so deeply invested in it.  

Now DA2 was supposedly terrible (the whole game, not just the ending) and that wasn't reflected in ME3's sales.  What makes you think it's going to be different if they don't fix the ending?  Deny it if you want, but this isn't the first time a lot of people complained about a game online.  

Finally, the Normandy escape wasn't a plothole, it was just implied rather than being shown.  Also, there was no character betrayal.  Shepard was stuck, had no other options, and instead of holding his breath and stomping his feet like a toddler elected to make a choice and save what he could of the galaxy.  You're really upset over absolutely nothing. 

[Gigamantis]

DigitalAvatar wrote...

Gigamantis wrote...
There are no quality issues.  The ending was well written and well produced.  Some people thought there should be more options and more shouts to the decisions you made throughout the game.  That's fine, and many publications even brought that up in their reviews, but that's a taste issue. 

I haven't heard one plot-hole that didn't have an obvious explanation, but I guess that will boild down to opinion as well.  The false advertising claim is just hilarious.  10 potential endings are not ABC.  Besides the main 4 the endings weren't all that varied, and I can see people being disappointed by that, but false advertising?  Don't be absurd.

...how much is EA paying you? Seriously, how much?
If you're not on the payroll I am baffled as to how you cannot see the problem with pulling a new, unheralded character out of the project director and/or lead writer's ass, completely changing the direction of the plot in the last five minutes,  not allowing Shepard to challenge flawed logical assertions, forcing the player to accept one of three flavours of seriously uncreative space magic, introducing numerous unexplained plot holes, and ending with no closure on the results of your choice or the fate of your companions.
Well written and well produced? Are you mad?

There's nothing problematic about introducing a new character if his existance doesn't contradict anything established in the lore, and IT DOESN'T.  His introduction is called a plot-twist, and, whether YOU FELT the catalysts logical assertions were right or wrong, Shepard had no choice but to accept his situation and make a choice. 

Saying the true Shepard would've stomped his feet and held his breath until the catalyst gave him his way is childish and asinine. 

[Kuari999]

Gigamantis wrote...

Ugh, you don't even know it was 4chan and I know members who claim it wasn't.  The forums I frequent are ones for all Blizzard games (WoW, SC2, DiabloIII) Skyrim and ME3 and both DA games.  Every time there's bad news it's ALL the forums are about for months.  You're purposely blinding yourself to it because you want this ME3 incident to be special, probably because you're so deeply invested in it.  

Now DA2 was supposedly terrible (the whole game, not just the ending) and that wasn't reflected in ME3's sales.  What makes you think it's going to be different if they don't fix the ending?  Deny it if you want, but this isn't the first time a lot of people complained about a game online.  

Finally, the Normandy escape wasn't a plothole, it was just implied rather than being shown.  Also, there was no character betrayal.  Shepard was stuck, had no other options, and instead of holding his breath and stomping his feet like a toddler elected to make a choice and save what he could of the galaxy.  You're really upset over absolutely nothing. 

Oh really?  Implied huh?  What was implied about the scene?  Also, no, I'm not blinding myself to anything.  I've accepted having unpopular opinions in the past, in fact, I'm damned used to it, I'm basing this off of facts.  You?  You just assume that all the facts are tainted.  You can't DO that without any sort of proof with any sort of legitimacy.  Also frankly I've been to all those forums.  Even during the worst incidents in Warcraft, finding other topics that didn't get bogged down was damned easy.  Not so here.  I'm not buying into that bull****.  Don't expect me to buy into your crap when you're spreading garbage like that that is flat out false.  That's the most insulting thing about this crap.  The way of the internet: If everyone is against you, try to attack their evidence rather than provide some of your own!  Its become the clearest indicator of a side not having a reasonable argument, get something else.  You don't like the evidence, come up with counter evidence.  Prove that what you state is even viable or just drop it.

And before you try to say that I have nothing, no, I have damned plenty, there's damned plenty all around, but instead of making counter points, you attack the evidence with baseless bull****.  Get some damned counterpoints.

Modifié par Kuari999, 13 avril 2012 - 01:49 .