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Why is there fan rage whenever a new Bioware game comes out?


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#701
Naivor

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KotorEffect3 wrote...

spacehamsterZH wrote...

Mere weeks before ME3 came out, if this board was any indication, ME2 was the worst game of all time and had effectively ruined the Mass Effect franchise.

Now ME1 and 2 are both brilliant, and ME3 is the retarded stepchild. And so it goes.



That is because nostaliga elitists like to hate on newer stuff while they praise older stuff.  5 years from now when bioware releases some new game these very forums will praise ME 3 while they diss whatever new game just came out.


The generation gap is partly to blame for it, along with nostalgia. When you're younger, everything seems awesome and blissfully sparkly, and you expect the next game to be even more so while retaining the old game. Then the New Game 2 is found to be an action game, misguidedly advertised as an RPG, and the old players of the series/developer go on a rampage about dropping standards, while new players, the group it was supposed to be marketed to, goes berserk with joy.

#702
Gigamantis

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Kuari999 wrote...

Gigamantis wrote...

There was a long sequence in the crucible where they were likely forced to retreat where you couldn't see or know.  They didn't want to retreat but they did.  Sorry if characters changing with their situations scares and confuses you, but it's pretty common in writing and reality to portray people like that.  You're just being pissy and irrational.  You clearly know nothing about writing. 


No, it doesn't scare and confuse me.  Going blatantly against a character's established personality without explaining it is a plot hole even if there's a reasonable explanation.  That's what a plot hole is.  Situations change, but a good writer makes you experience it, not simply BAM!, wait, wtf are they doing?  Is this going to be explained?  There's a reason people like you are in the minority here.  This right here?  What you're doing?  Is why.  A rational person doesn't assume someone's personal issues are the reason they think a certain way.

It's not against his established personality.  There's nothing established anywhere in this game that proves Shepard will argue even when it's pointless and harmful to do so.  Nothing was different about Shepards character, there.  Shepard doesn't throw tantrums when he's minutes away from death and he KNOWS they won't help.  I'd say that's perfectly reasonable for Shepards character.

A plot hole doesn't exist if IN YOUR OPINION Shepard would've handled the situation differently.  You have no idea what a plot-hole is if you think your ignorant pre-conceptions define them.  

#703
Baroo5

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I greatly respect Stanley Woo for dealing with the community here. If i were in his spot, I would of gone crazy. On the side note I found the ending to be pretty darn good.

#704
Gigamantis

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DigitalAvatar wrote...

Gigamantis wrote...

You're just reaching because you're angry.  You don't know what bad writing is and how to identify it.

1) If they thought you were dead there's no reason they wouldn't try to regroup and come up with something else. [Speculation]
2) Abandoning temporarily to regroup when it seems it was obviously a failure isn't impossible. [Speculation]
3) Speculation, and stupid at that.  You were picked up in hostile earth territory by the Normandy in the beginning. [Speculation]
4) Same thing was happening on earth, the Normandy escaped.  It's quite a ship. [Speculation]
5) Why not? If the team looked like they needed extraction why wouldn't that take priority?  Joker was just a diversion anyways. [Speculation]
6) Mission seemed a failure.  Regroup and try again or die somewhere peaceful. [Speculation]
7) Again, stupid speculation [Speculation]
8) Regrouping, ascertain other options.  Lost hope with Shepard seemingly dead.  Pick one. [Speculation]
9) They were trapped in an exploding relay.  Big boom hurt Normandy.  Duh. [Speculation, but I'll give you this one.]
10) If they were near a collapsing relay, probably. [Speculation]
11) Mainly just the relays and anything caught in their destruction. [Speculation]
12) You're not supposed to know.
13) It obviously made it but took enough damage to be forced to crash land.
14) Maybe they all die.  You're not supposed to know what happens to them.  That's the point.
15) See 14
16) The planet they landed on may be habitable or they may be screwed.  Again, you're not supposed to know.


You're right: This is all just speculation from any of us. All I have is speculation, all you have is speculation, because all the game gives us a bunch of unexplained plotholes. Yes, they ARE plot holes, they do not logically follow the narrative and all any of us have are endless attempts to try and make sense of things.
This is precisely WHY the ending is a complete failure.

I for one do not accept that my crew would have left. Garrus and Tali, my Shepard's best mate and love interest respectively, were right next to me on Earth during the final run. Shepard was lying in the open. Neither of them would have left him there.
I do not accept that the Normandy could have swept in and picked them up - if it was that easy then Shepard's team would have been dropped right outside the conduit. Or the Normandy would've at least dropped them on Earth directly instead of risking the shuttle.
These things do not make sense, regardless of how many speculative justifications you or I can come up with. The plot fails to convey any of it.
And yeah, call it personal preference, but I don't get a lot of satisfaction from an ending which involves my best friends and love interest starving and dying on a random planet somewhere.

If that's your thing, great.

What you can and can't accept doesn't define good writing; that's what you people aren't getting.  Every action every character took was reasonable and none of it constitutes a plot-hole.  These things do make sense, they're just IMPLIED rather than shown.  Getting confused just shows you have absolutely no ability to piece together what they did show you.  Good writing doesn't necessitate they explain everything to you like you're 5 years old.  A lot of stories skip scenes and drop implications that are supposed to connect the dots for you, and the ME3 ending is as simple to follow as anything I've ever seen. 

#705
Naivor

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Terror_K wrote...

The ending(s) aren't ME3's only flaws, they're just one of the biggest, most detracting and the ones everybody is going on about.

For one thing, there's the character face import, which has gone beyond a fiasco. Given the promises from BioWare and intent of the trilogy, the fact that it was broken at launch was unforgivable as it is, but to make matters worse we've since been given a patch that claims to fix the issue but just outright doesn't, and not only that, people have discovered that some Shepard faces are literally impossible to create or recreate in ME3 because the facial options are simply not there. That is beyond ludicrous and to state how mind-boggingly bad that is can't be put into words. You've got a series based entirely around carrying a completely customisable character through a trilogy, and not only do you guys not have this working at launch, but whoever designed the CC cut out options entirely? Seriously?! The term "WTF?!!" does not even come close to covering how poorly planned, programmed and designed this major fubar is. So right out of the box, before the player is even into the game, if they're importing in the manner the series was designed for, they're already screwed over. It's the equivalent of trying to build a world class soccer team to take on the best in the world, but not even picking a goalie and leaving it completely undefended for the entire game. That's how bad the planning was here and how outright stupid whoever was in charge of the CC design was. What's the point of wasting time making a brand new default Femshep and adding more hair options if a quarter of the options from the previous titles aren't even there.

And that's before we even get into the gameplay. ME3 nailed the shooter mechanics and combat, I'll give it that, but at the cost of pretty much everything that made the original games what they were. I'd even go so far to say it was the core gameplay that suffered and was greatly reduced in ME3, which is NOT the combat, but the roleplaying, dialogue and choices.

For starters, only two dialogue options 90% of the time, even with "Full Decisions" on. Why "Full decisions" is so damn simplified and watered down compared to just the default way things were in ME1 and ME2 that "Full Decisions" is supposed to represent is beyond me. The third neutral option barely makes a showing at all, not to mention that the amount of Charm/Indimidate options in the entire game equates to such a pitiful amount I could probably count them on both hands and not run out of finers. As I've said before, there were more Charm/Intimidate opportunities on Noveria in ME1 alone than in ALL of ME3.

Then there's the autodialogue, with Shepard running his/her mouth off without me, the player, doing a damn thing. This happens far too often, so much so I wonder why there's any dialogue choices at all. I'm never going to touch "Action Mode" but I get the strong feeling that given how much Shepard yammers on without me picking a damn thing and the amount of times I'm just given two options that are either not that different or simply "Jesus or Hitler" that I'd barely be missing out on anything. Why you guys wasted your time programming the different game styles (Narrative, RPG, Action, etc.) is beyond me given how little effort seemed to be put into the dialogue itself.

Then there's the fact that 80% of the time you talk with your crew, they're Zaeed and Kasumi all over again. Here's a test for you Stanley (or any other BioWare employee who may be reading) to see how much BioWare supposedly "listens" to its fans: while Zaeed and Kasumi were generally enjoyed by fans as DLC companions for ME2, what was the most commonly griped about aspect about them? Here's a clue... it's something you did to the entire Mass Effect 3 crew whenever you talk with them more often than not! I go to talk with my L.I. after a long absense for the first time, and do I get a proper cutscene with a dialogue wheel and choices? No... I just get her standing there saying something I have no control over as I click on her, pressing her like a button. I finally get Ashley back after her accident and onto the Normandy again, and does she have anything to say and do I get a dialogue wheel and a cinematic scene? No, I just get, "Hey, Shepard" and that's it. With the rare exceptions here and there, my crew have become less like squadmates, friends and companions and more like talking plush toys I can go around and squeeze or yank the pull string on every so often. I enjoyed that they moved around a little more, there was inter-party banter and we got the odd moment on The Citadel with them, but it wasn't worth it to get "Tickle Me Garrus" and "Speak and Say Liara."

On top of it all, the ship ended up becoming boring in the end, as you had to run all around it every visit from top to bottom and back again, just to make sure you'd found everything. The Citadel had the same issue. For example, if you speak to everybody else aboard the Normandy before coming across drunk Tali at the bar and you have to go back and revisit them all just to see if it unlocks some drunk Tali banter, because it won't happen if you don't see her first. And then you slog all the way back just to find that all that happens is James say, "hey" again. *sigh*

The Citadel and the Normandy were highlights in the other games, but the execution of them in ME3 made them into a chore I was sick of dealing with. Not to mention all the samey fetch-quests that took up 90% of the sidequests (with the rest pretty much just cheap rehashes of MP maps as you just kill guys). It was the most tedious and hamfisted, lazy-ass pieces of DA2 all over again, as you hunted down every race's lost artifacts from random scans and brought them back. What's this? An interesting quest to the elcor homeworld to rescue some elcor? Wow! That actually sounds like... oh wait, it's just another fetch-quest where you click on the planet and it's all done for you. Oh, and half of them are just found sitting in the Spectre terminal. All in all, ME3 sidequests were the worst of the trilogy.

Not that the main quests were much better. The writing was fairly solid, they had some great epic and emotional moments and the level-design was definitely better than ME2's. But damn... were they linear as all hell. Not only were there barely any choices during them so they ended up almost all playing out the same, but the entire structure was linear throughout the entire game. No freedom for the player to go where they want when they want... it has to be Mars, Palaven's Moon, Sur'Kesh, etc. in that order without fail in every playthrough. As much as some people may moan about the BioWare pattern of, "Tutorial Place, Forced Secondary Place and then 3 to 5 Locations You Can Do In Any Order" at least that pattern gave the player some freedom. That's non-existent in ME3. Yes... players said they wan't a more focused story than ME2's was, but that doesn't mean completely on the rails from A to B to C to D, etc. ME1, KotOR and DAO all proved you can have a focused story that unfolds without forcing the players where to go. BioWare said this was supposed to be the most diverse of the trilogy and give players the most freedom since it was the last part, but were' restricted far more than in ME1 or ME2 in ME3.

Which leads to another promise that was broken: our choices mattering. They just outright didn't. ME2 was already guilty of BioWare's lazy way of dealing with variations: either trivialise it, sweep it under the rug or offer a weak substitution. ME3 suffered this even worse, and it was, again, supposed to be the part where all our choices were shown to matter and had real diversity. Save the Rachni Queen or kill her? Doesn't matter, same result. How about those people who lived or died in ME1 and ME2? Doesn't matter, somebody will just step in and take their place and dialogue on the exact same mission. This goes for the likes of The Council, Wrex, Mordin, Grunt, etc. It doesn't matter what you did in ME1 or ME2, it's still exactly the same game with the same missions done in the same order and the same outcome and same ending. Even the Virmire Survivor was cut out of half the game so the devs didn't have to put any effort into their return it seems. No wonder the endings didn't reflect our choices, because they never matter in any of the rest of the game either, so why should they at the end. All they countered towards was a stupid, arbitrary number called "Galactic Readiness" that has no real bearing on anything and is just a counter to indicate whether once the end comes you're "Kind of Screwed," "Really Screwed" or "Totally Screwed." Again, this was the final part where BioWare said they could "go nuts" and that our choices would be really diverse. Another lie.

And then there's the endings. 'Nuff said there. It's all been covered more than enough times.

The point is, ME3 has major issues even without the endings, and it seems largely because the focus has shifted away from what really mattered and when to other things that were less important. Kinect Support, Multiplayer, Different Game modes, etc. and even the combat all seemed to be far more crucial than the factor that to me (and thus I'm sure many other Mass Effect fans) was supposed to be the most crucial, key and core of the series: the dialogue, the roleplaying, the choices and satisfying consequences that should come from those things.

And yes, I was calling for more statistical RPG elements, such as power evolutions and diversity, weapon modification and more customisation as a whole. But that was because despite my concerns about the direction ME3 was going, I didn't really think for one second that the dialogue, choices and other roleplaying elements were going to take as much of a hit and be watered down as much as they were. I suspected after ME2 that the choices and consequences weren't going to be as fulfulling as I'd hoped and we were promised, but I still expected a far better job than this. I didn't expect things like the Rachni Queen choice to be so utterly pointless as they turned out to be. But I certainly didn't expect as much autodialogue as we got, the ME2 DLC Squaddie treatment we got for the whole crew and the complete lack of dialogue choices, not to mention so few Charm/Intimidate opportunities.

ME3 took all the things I loved most about the other two games and watered them down, and as much as I complained about ME2's lack of hardcore, statistical RPG mechanics, it at least didn't skimp on the roleplaying and dialogue choices. ME3 just felt so half-assed and dumbed down in this regard. And that's why I think it's the worst of the trilogy, even if it did nail the combat, have better designed levels, bring back modding, diversify skills more, get rid of Mission Complete screens, arbitrary XP gains and other annoying aspects of ME2.


Are you me? Thats seriously just about everything I didnt like about the game and what I did like.

#706
Gigamantis

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So why if Joker was retreating with the squad, did he fly away from Earth? what logical explanation could you possibly give that Joker would flee the battle and be a coward? it still doesn't make sense.

All we know is that Joker was leaving the battle and passing through a relay when the relays went. If you honestly believe the battle is lost regrouping and weighing your options is the smartest thing you can do. Shepard and the entire Normandy fled earth at the beginning of the game instead of sticking around to fight.   Not a plot-hole.

Modifié par Gigamantis, 13 avril 2012 - 03:50 .


#707
Drake_Hound

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Gigamantis wrote...

So why if Joker was retreating with the squad, did he fly away from Earth? what logical explanation could you possibly give that Joker would flee the battle and be a coward? it still doesn't make sense.

All we know is that Joker was leaving the battle and passing through a relay when the relays went. If you honestly believe the battle is lost regrouping and weighing your options is the smartest thing you can do. Shepard and the entire Normandy fled earth at the beginning of the game instead of sticking around to fight.   Not a plot-hole.


That is hardly likely unless Shepard Tell Joker to get out , even then he would rebel .
Sorry this is what suddenly breaks the immersion , you take a excisting character trough 3 games.
You suddenly turn it around 180 degrees , by going in again what the character believes or does .

That is why it doesn´t fit in the explanation , even if the explanation is logical .
It doesn´t have context with previous statement of the character .
That is what is wrong with ending , we all know in global lines what kind of characters the companions are .
Those Global Lines are bolded , Thane is dying we all accept that , we hope for a miracle but we realise he is dying .
But now he is dead , he suddenly jumps out of his grave joins in the last battle , and writer writes he got cure trough a miracle .

Hurray for the Thane Fans , but does it 100% break immersion for the rest ?

#708
Gigamantis

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Naivor wrote...

Gigamantis wrote...
The catalyst was only introduced in the final game and didn't need to be hinted at previously to work in this context.  What your argument here boils down to is "I don't like surprises!"  That's not literary critique, that's just personal taste.  There are a lot of ways to introduce a plot-twist; not just the "everyone can see it coming" method. 

Also, there's nothing in Shepard's past that would indicate he would argue when it's ABSOLUTELY POINTLESS to do so.  Add the fact that he's probably minutes away from bleeding to death, and he's pretty much accepted the crucible was the galaxies only way out, and you have a reasonable decision to act rather than converse. 


The fact that the Catalyst was introduced at the end of the last game was whats wrong with it. The whole story was really one huge deus ex machina, starting from the finding of the Crucibles blueprints just after the reapers attacked and people needed some superweapon to defeat them.

Surprises work, if made properly. This time it wasnt really about the surprise, but about how the surprise wasnt even hinted at before Thessia, and that was almost at the end of the main game already. Then players got some sort of super AI, which isn't explained in any way. Plot-twists in general should be built, not just thrown out there, independent. It just leaves people hanging and strips the personal connection right out.
Imagine Dragon Age: Origins ending with the same sort of thing. Suddenly a man comes out of nowhere and tells you the Old Gods were his idea all along, and you were fighting him all that time! Gasp, what a tweest! The Maker was the Reapers!

And as for your last point, there is a reason why Shepard should argue.
Because Shepard is largely made by the player. You choose his personality and actions, not the game. Thats the core part of an RPG. My Bram Shepard would have gladly sacrificed the rest of the fleets if that would give him a chance to talk the undoubtedly intelligent AI into hope. That chance was still there, seeing as an AI like EDI could be reasoned with. There was no reason to just accept what the little bastard said. Bleeding to death or no, Shepard was still concious and apparently fully sensible, the way he kept on yammering and asking logical questions.

I didn't play Dues Ex but similarities aside the crucible's introduction at the beginning and eventual revelation worked.  A lot of you didn't like the character because of what he forced Shepard to do, but that's not grounds to claim he was poorly implemented.  The revelation of the crucible was a surprise, no one saw it coming, and that's not a bad thing.  Surprises don't have to be hinted atmany times throughout a story; assuming that makes absolutely no sense. 

Also, Shepard is only partly made by the character.  You may have your own feelings about what Shepard would do in every situation but you're ultimately limited to the scope of what Shepards actual creators want him to do.  In a Role Playing Game you're PLAYING a ROLE, not creating one.  In ME you've always had options but they've always been limited.  Arguing in THAT situation wasn't what the Shepard that BIOWARE CREATED wanted to do.  

#709
Gigamantis

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Drake_Hound wrote...

Gigamantis wrote...

So why if Joker was retreating with the squad, did he fly away from Earth? what logical explanation could you possibly give that Joker would flee the battle and be a coward? it still doesn't make sense.

All we know is that Joker was leaving the battle and passing through a relay when the relays went. If you honestly believe the battle is lost regrouping and weighing your options is the smartest thing you can do. Shepard and the entire Normandy fled earth at the beginning of the game instead of sticking around to fight.   Not a plot-hole.


That is hardly likely unless Shepard Tell Joker to get out , even then he would rebel .
Sorry this is what suddenly breaks the immersion , you take a excisting character trough 3 games.
You suddenly turn it around 180 degrees , by going in again what the character believes or does .

That is why it doesn´t fit in the explanation , even if the explanation is logical .
It doesn´t have context with previous statement of the character .
That is what is wrong with ending , we all know in global lines what kind of characters the companions are .
Those Global Lines are bolded , Thane is dying we all accept that , we hope for a miracle but we realise he is dying .
But now he is dead , he suddenly jumps out of his grave joins in the last battle , and writer writes he got cure trough a miracle .

Hurray for the Thane Fans , but does it 100% break immersion for the rest ?

Joker always just did what Shepard told him.  We have very little insight on what Joker would do if left to his own devices.  Like I already said, they fled the battle at the beginning on Earth so what's so unbelievable about it now?  Joker made a split second decision to save who he could and try to get them to safety.  Not unreasonable and not immersion breaking.  If you're all disallusioned about Joker because of it maybe you thought he was someone he wasn't. 

#710
Drake_Hound

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Gigamantis wrote...

Drake_Hound wrote...

Gigamantis wrote...

So why if Joker was retreating with the squad, did he fly away from Earth? what logical explanation could you possibly give that Joker would flee the battle and be a coward? it still doesn't make sense.

All we know is that Joker was leaving the battle and passing through a relay when the relays went. If you honestly believe the battle is lost regrouping and weighing your options is the smartest thing you can do. Shepard and the entire Normandy fled earth at the beginning of the game instead of sticking around to fight.   Not a plot-hole.


That is hardly likely unless Shepard Tell Joker to get out , even then he would rebel .
Sorry this is what suddenly breaks the immersion , you take a excisting character trough 3 games.
You suddenly turn it around 180 degrees , by going in again what the character believes or does .

That is why it doesn´t fit in the explanation , even if the explanation is logical .
It doesn´t have context with previous statement of the character .
That is what is wrong with ending , we all know in global lines what kind of characters the companions are .
Those Global Lines are bolded , Thane is dying we all accept that , we hope for a miracle but we realise he is dying .
But now he is dead , he suddenly jumps out of his grave joins in the last battle , and writer writes he got cure trough a miracle .

Hurray for the Thane Fans , but does it 100% break immersion for the rest ?

Joker always just did what Shepard told him.  We have very little insight on what Joker would do if left to his own devices.  Like I already said, they fled the battle at the beginning on Earth so what's so unbelievable about it now?  Joker made a split second decision to save who he could and try to get them to safety.  Not unreasonable and not immersion breaking.  If you're all disallusioned about Joker because of it maybe you thought he was someone he wasn't. 


When they Left earth is cause they had a GOAL gather alliance to fight the reaper .
The goal was it is going to be the last battle , so you turn the whole story around just to make it fit the logic of the ending .

So basically you going to make your own ending , while breaking up everything that mass disillusioned fans believe in ?
This is the thing about the ending cause your speculation is also a bit rubbishe lets go trough logic .

Sure lets say you are right and battle of earth is lost ... what are we multiplaying for ?
So to script the ending that make sense in this vision of yours , we have to ad how many minutes of cinematics ?
To connect the dots together for it , to make it even remotely plausible ?
Discarding that people are disillusioned , discarding everything of the franchise .. even stepping on Multiplayer goals or effort .

Wait one second isn´t it cheaper to rewrite the ending ?

#711
Kuari999

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Gigamantis wrote...

It's
not against his established personality.  There's nothing established
anywhere in this game that proves Shepard will argue even when it's
pointless and harmful to do so.  Nothing was different about Shepards
character, there.  Shepard doesn't throw tantrums when he's minutes away
from death and he KNOWS they won't help.  I'd say that's perfectly
reasonable for Shepards character.

A plot hole doesn't exist if
IN YOUR OPINION Shepard would've handled the situation differently.  You
have no idea what a plot-hole is if you think your ignorant
pre-conceptions define them.  


Lets see...  he's willing to punch a reporter..  shoot up an entire security force rather than relinquish his weapon to legitimate authority, and I could go on.  Even if maturity was what was called into question, there are examples of being pretty childish.  HOWEVER, you assume that it was pointless.  You can't assume that without trying something at ANY point.  So yes, its a plot hole, too bad for you.

Gigamantis wrote...

So why if Joker was retreating with the squad, did he fly away from Earth? what logical explanation could you possibly give that Joker would flee the battle and be a coward? it still doesn't make sense.

All we know is that Joker was leaving the battle and passing through a relay when the relays went. If you honestly believe the battle is lost regrouping and weighing your options is the smartest thing you can do. Shepard and the entire Normandy fled earth at the beginning of the game instead of sticking around to fight.   Not a plot-hole.


Its a plot hole until its explained.  That's the definition of a plot hole.  The exact definition of a plot hole.  Ask your writing teacher.  The beginning escape was at least explained.

Gigamantis wrote...

Joker always just did what Shepard
told him.  We have very little insight on what Joker would do if left to
his own devices.  Like I already said, they fled the battle at the
beginning on Earth so what's so unbelievable about it now?  Joker made a
split second decision to save who he could and try to get them to
safety.  Not unreasonable and not immersion breaking.  If you're all
disallusioned about Joker because of it maybe you thought he was someone
he wasn't. 


He was willing to die rather than go down with the Normandy.
Picking up Shepard from the Collector's base?  He went out the airlock, giving covering fire when it was established that would mess up his bones.
There are likely other examples as well, but the fact of the matter is, it doesn't MATTER if there's POSSIBLY a reasonable explanation.  The fact of the matter is an explanation is important in this situation to know for certain why he made the decision.  Because of that, its a plot hole.  You can NOT defend it, it is NOT an opinion here.  They didn't explain it, its a plot hole

Let me repeat:

THEY didn't explain it, so its a plot hole
YOU explaining it doesn't make it not a plot hole
YOU are not in control of the characters so any explanation you give is speculation.

IT...  IS...  A PLOT HOLE.

You don't have to just take it from me, but ask any writing teacher for the definition of a plot hole.  THEY WILL SAY THE EXACT SAME THING!

#712
Gigamantis

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Drake_Hound wrote...

Gigamantis wrote...

Drake_Hound wrote...

Gigamantis wrote...

So why if Joker was retreating with the squad, did he fly away from Earth? what logical explanation could you possibly give that Joker would flee the battle and be a coward? it still doesn't make sense.

All we know is that Joker was leaving the battle and passing through a relay when the relays went. If you honestly believe the battle is lost regrouping and weighing your options is the smartest thing you can do. Shepard and the entire Normandy fled earth at the beginning of the game instead of sticking around to fight.   Not a plot-hole.


That is hardly likely unless Shepard Tell Joker to get out , even then he would rebel .
Sorry this is what suddenly breaks the immersion , you take a excisting character trough 3 games.
You suddenly turn it around 180 degrees , by going in again what the character believes or does .

That is why it doesn´t fit in the explanation , even if the explanation is logical .
It doesn´t have context with previous statement of the character .
That is what is wrong with ending , we all know in global lines what kind of characters the companions are .
Those Global Lines are bolded , Thane is dying we all accept that , we hope for a miracle but we realise he is dying .
But now he is dead , he suddenly jumps out of his grave joins in the last battle , and writer writes he got cure trough a miracle .

Hurray for the Thane Fans , but does it 100% break immersion for the rest ?

Joker always just did what Shepard told him.  We have very little insight on what Joker would do if left to his own devices.  Like I already said, they fled the battle at the beginning on Earth so what's so unbelievable about it now?  Joker made a split second decision to save who he could and try to get them to safety.  Not unreasonable and not immersion breaking.  If you're all disallusioned about Joker because of it maybe you thought he was someone he wasn't. 


When they Left earth is cause they had a GOAL gather alliance to fight the reaper .
The goal was it is going to be the last battle , so you turn the whole story around just to make it fit the logic of the ending .

So basically you going to make your own ending , while breaking up everything that mass disillusioned fans believe in ?
This is the thing about the ending cause your speculation is also a bit rubbishe lets go trough logic .

Sure lets say you are right and battle of earth is lost ... what are we multiplaying for ?
So to script the ending that make sense in this vision of yours , we have to ad how many minutes of cinematics ?
To connect the dots together for it , to make it even remotely plausible ?
Discarding that people are disillusioned , discarding everything of the franchise .. even stepping on Multiplayer goals or effort .

Wait one second isn´t it cheaper to rewrite the ending ?

I could barely make sense out of anything you said here, but I'll still try to respond. 

The goal at the beginning was to retreat and find another way once it was clear that earth was lost.  Joker probably had the same cut-and-run state of mind when he thought he saw Shepard die or disappear.  It's established in the characters of the entire Normandy crew that retreating and regrouping is an option.  The squad was DONE.  Picking up the survivors, licking wounds and assessing their options was a smart option Joker took.  It's implied enough to where Bioware doesn't need to tie it together, but for the people too slow to follow it they probably will with this new DLC.

It's completely plausible and you being disillusioned by Joker's actions couldn't possibly matter less.  Not all characters in games have to be role-models for you. 

#713
string3r

string3r
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Lots of rage in this thread.

#714
Stanley Woo

Stanley Woo
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And I think this thread has run its course. Thanks, everyone.

End of line.