713 réponses à ce sujet

[Tovanus]

Ethical wrote...

Imo DA2 hate wasn't as bad as ME3; the ME3 outrage seems to have more passion since there is a solution to it while for DA2 there was NO solution in sight short of scraping the whole thing and starting over from scratch.

I think there's a lot of truth to this. My impression of the hate for DA 2 was that it was mediocre in plot, and the gameplay was atrocious. But the problems existed for the game as a whole, and whatever faults the game had, it didn't "break" the franchise. It didn't make the plot of DA: O seem less epic or interesting. And DA 2 was never advertised as the exciting conclusion to the story of Dragon Age. It's the second in a series of games.

Mass Effect 3 though.... everyone feels like they just need to fix the last ten minutes. Something that can be done with new dialogue and cutscenes, and maybe just removing one scene altogther and pretending it never happened. (I'm looking at you Starchild).

You should all check out the new video by the Understated Nerd Rage guy. It's about the new announcement from Bioware. He makes some good points. The fans feel like there could have been a fix, and Bioware's lack of meaningful engagement was probably not helpful in PR terms. (I don't view a twitter feed with people who can't make decisions or the ocassional mod jumping in to a conversation as meaningful engagement, since they don't make the decisions, though I do like the people who do those jobs).

[Dridengx]

Faust1979 wrote...

I've been on and off the forums since 2003 after the release of Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic and I remember the hate on the forums for it. Every since that release every single game has had an up roar of some of the fans that will go on for a few months before people stop caring. Then get angry all over again when a new game comes out. The Mass Effect games are like an anology for these boards a never ending cycle.

Exactly. every single game got hate.

NWN hate for being too actiony and like diablo, and bad campaign
kotor got hate which you mentioned
Jade empire even got hate now suddenly everyone wants a sequel
DA got hate for lack of being BG
DA2 got hate for graphics and everything else including NOT being like DA
ME got hate for being xbox exclusive, then hate for coming to PC, then hate for everything else
TOR got hate for stuff as well including the story
ME3 well for everything but the music

of course ME3 is the worst because everyone knows Scifi geeks are the most local and whiny. Look at Star Trek, Serenity, Star Wars, Green lantern, Star Gate, etc etc

Modifié par Dridengx, 09 avril 2012 - 10:18 .

[Dridengx]

Nightwriter wrote...

Every game yields criticism.

Can't recall us ever raising $80,000 in an effort to change an ending, though.

well, no one said the fans were getting any better

[Documental]

I can't actually tell if it's just because more laid-back or whatever but I just can't get angry at something like this, I just don't see the point.

I've enjoyed BioWare games since KotOR and I've enjoyed all of them without fail, I mean Mass Effect 3 is the best game I've played from BioWare, sure the ending wasn't great but I didn't find it rage-worthy, it was just mediocre, it wasn't something to get angry or upset about.

Personally I wasn't here when people raged about Dragon Age 2 and I only got the game a couple of weeks ago but I don't get why people are hating on it either, sure it isn't as good as any of the Mass Effect games but it's still a great game.

I don't know, I just find everyone getting angry or upset or making threats all pointless, I just don't see the point in getting worked up over it.

[Nightwriter]

Dridengx wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Every game yields criticism.

Can't recall us ever raising $80,000 in an effort to change an ending, though.

well, no one said the fans were getting any better

I think donating to charity is a step in the right direction, myself.

[Sanunes]

Artemis_Entrari wrote...

Faust1979 wrote...

killnoob wrote...

i did not see any large scale backlash with DAO....even the poo storm of DA2 wasn't as big as this

I thought the DA2 backlash was worse actually

How do you figure that?  Did the co-founder of BioWare have to issue a statement following DA2's release?  Did it's game producer have to issue a release?  Did numerous non-gaming publications pick up the story and run with it?

The backlash from ME3 far exceeds any of BioWare's previous games.  The only proof you need is the sheer publicity this received from all sorts of publications, gaming or otherwise.

1) Yes.
2) Yes.
3) You are correct.

I personally believe if Dragon Age 2 was released in the current media circus it would be covered the same if not more then Mass Effect 3 because of how people were reacting to it.

[LegendaryBlade]

MortalEngines wrote...

LegendaryBlade wrote...

DA2 rage came from Bioware spitting in the face of Dragonage fans and telling them, screw you guys we want a newer, BIGGER audience.

ME3 rage is from the most poorly written ending to a plot ever witnessed by mankind.

From being in the middle of both, ME3 rage is definitely worse. It's lasted longer, and it's a lot more one sided. It wasn't 91% of people who were upset with DA2 after all.

And the rage on KOTOR? Later seen as one of Bioware's better games. And the inital rage on Mass Effect and DA:O? You might not of been there, but I certainly remember it. People on BSN always find a couple of (most of the time legitmate) issues and blow them up as 'game-breaking' or 'series destoryer' when they're really not. 

KOTOR, DA:O, and ME2 had no where near the amount of drama that we have now. It always blew over quickly, and the arguments were a lot less one sided. It barely even compares.

[Han Shot First]

People who are angry about something tend to be more vocal than people who aren't. So with the release of any new game, the people who didn't care for it are always going to have the 'loudest' voices.

That being said, there are some differences however between previous Bioware releases and the release of Mass Effect 3. With the release of Mass Effect 1, Dragon Age: Origins or Dragon Age, there was never any real doubt that the 'nattering nabobs of negativity' where anything more than a vocal minority. The tone of the discussion was generally positive, as was the user reviews around the net.

This time is a bit different in that it is most of the fanbase that dislikes the endings, rather than a vocal minority. In that regard the fallout surrounding the endings has more in common with the fan backlash over Dragon Age 2 than it does with negative posts directed at ME1 and ME2, or DA:O.

[Ryven]

I lurked on these forums for quite a while. I've never raged until the ending of ME3, in fact there were a few times way back when where I defended Bioware on these forums. I didn't get really active until the ME3 ending debacle. I just felt they have always been great and could have done better. Especially when ending a trilogy that I've invested close to 400 hours in.

[awwnuts07]

kbct wrote...

PaddlePop wrote...

kbct wrote...

As measured by what? Polls? Worldwide media coverage? Number of negative user reviews?

DA2 user backlash was definitely worse on the forums than ME3's, however, ME3's recieving more coverage. Also, this time the users are more organised. I imagine if DA3 fails, this place will erupt into fullscale war. Bioware won't survive it.  

We need to measure it in some form. Otherwise, it is just opinion.

We could look at the polls. Largest ME3 poll has 71,000 votes. Largest DA2 poll has 2,000 votes.

We could look at the volume of negative user reviews on Amazon.

We could look at global media coverage. ME3 had articles in CNN, BBC, Forbes, New Yorker, MSNBC, etc.

Here's the reason from my point of view: DA2 pissed off hardcore fans. ME3 pissed off hardcore AND non-hardcore fans. 

Take me for example. I thought DA2 was very flawed, but still a likeable game. However, I didn't care enough to post any complaints on the BW forums. I didn't even know there was a backlash until someone mentioned it in this thread. 

ME3 on the other hand, motivated people who don't normally post in forums to come in to BSN and tell the ME3 team their ending sucked. 

That's why you see a huge discrepecy in numbers. I highly doubt the consistent BSN posters  alone could have raised 80k for a charity. 

[Gatt9]

Tovanus wrote...

Ethical wrote...

Imo DA2 hate wasn't as bad as ME3; the ME3 outrage seems to have more passion since there is a solution to it while for DA2 there was NO solution in sight short of scraping the whole thing and starting over from scratch.

I think there's a lot of truth to this. My impression of the hate for DA 2 was that it was mediocre in plot, and the gameplay was atrocious. But the problems existed for the game as a whole, and whatever faults the game had, it didn't "break" the franchise. It didn't make the plot of DA: O seem less epic or interesting. And DA 2 was never advertised as the exciting conclusion to the story of Dragon Age. It's the second in a series of games.

Mass Effect 3 though.... everyone feels like they just need to fix the last ten minutes. Something that can be done with new dialogue and cutscenes, and maybe just removing one scene altogther and pretending it never happened. (I'm looking at you Starchild).

You should all check out the new video by the Understated Nerd Rage guy. It's about the new announcement from Bioware. He makes some good points. The fans feel like there could have been a fix, and Bioware's lack of meaningful engagement was probably not helpful in PR terms. (I don't view a twitter feed with people who can't make decisions or the ocassional mod jumping in to a conversation as meaningful engagement, since they don't make the decisions, though I do like the people who do those jobs).

I would disagree on the difference in reaction to ME3 and DA2.

With DA2,  Gamers had months of foreknowledge that the game was a mess.  We knew ahead of time that the dialogue was simplified and heavily color-coded for people that hate reading,  we knew ahead of time that the combat system was hyper-action,  and that the game wasn't a sequel to DAO.  So when it was released,  and we found out about the teleporting waves,  bad writing,  and reused maps,  many of us had already decided not to buy it.  So we just felt our opinions were justified,  and tried to communicate to Bioware why we didn't like this direction (Which failed,  the DA2 team isn't interested in hearing gamer's concerns).

With ME3,  Bioware deceived us all the way up until release.  We didn't find out that the best ending isn't possible in SP,  or that our decisions didn't matter at all,  until we bought the game.  So we ended up alot more ticked off,  because we were tricked into buying something we may have passed on.  I would've cancelled my preorder if Bioware had told me MP was forced,  or that decisions didn't matter.

It was the deception that provided the difference.  If we'd been deceived for DA2,  that would've been the same firestorm.

[xxskyshadowxx]

GuyIncognito wrote...

Anareth wrote...
Agreed. DA2 was decent, the plot wasn't nearly as good or as epic as the previous game, but then again that's what bioware was going for. Why, I have no idea but there it is.

Blastback wrote...
I'd say part of it has to do with a number of fans who want more games in the vein of Baldur's Gate and KotOR feeling ignored and abandoned.

I've tried breaking down why this opinion exists and what I believe is that it has to do with the Player / The Warden relationship in DA:O vs. a sort of Player / The Narrator relationship in DA2.

Implications from The Stargazer sequence would allude to the fact that a player did not pick up the fact that a player's playthroughs in ME trilogy was really just one long legend folk-lore that The Stargazer was telling this kid 10,000 years in the future, a story of "The Shepard."

I've looked at a handful of threads, and I keep seeing a commonality in how phrases are used. Specifically with the one where people state "My Shepard would do this / wouldn't do this." "This is not the ending that I wanted for My Shepard"

You go back to how BW phrases ME3, "This is the end of Shepard's Story." and not "This is the end of your Shepard's story."

-------------------------------------------

At the end of Fallout 1 where you finally make it back to Vault 13, you accomplished all of those wonderful things that resulted in the end, only to be exiled from the Vault by the Overseer because you've seen too much of the world and it would disrupt the society of the Vault if everyone knew what was outside. Would you have shot him before walking into the wastes? I sure as hell did. The ending sucks for The Wanderer, but you project yourself onto the character.

You'd have to blame Mike Gamble and company for the players thinking it was about "their" Shepard, since that's specifically what those representatives of Bioware said:

"“There are many different endings. We wouldn’t do it any other way. How
could you go through all three campaigns playing as your Shepard and
then be forced into a bespoke ending that everyone gets? But I can’t
say any more than that…”

“Every decision you've made will impact how things go. The player's also the
architect of what happens."

“Experience the beginning, middle, and end of an emotional story unlike any
other, where the decisions you make completely shape your experience
and outcome.”

"And, to be honest, you [the fans] are crafting your Mass Effect story as
much as we are anyway.”

So was it the end of Shepard's story truly, or the end of your/my Shepard's story? Bioware needs to learn to stop talking out of both ends....then the backlash upon release of their games would be less.

[AlanC9]

Artemis_Entrari wrote...
How do you figure that?  Did the co-founder of BioWare have to issue a statement following DA2's release?  Did it's game producer have to issue a release?  Did numerous non-gaming publications pick up the story and run with it?

The backlash from ME3 far exceeds any of BioWare's previous games.  The only proof you need is the sheer publicity this received from all sorts of publications, gaming or otherwise.

But the attention is at least in part because there actually was a Retake movement. I won't speak for the gaming press since I generally don't follow it, but the thing the mainstream folks seem to find interesting is the idea that fans were demanding and might actually get changes to the game. Nerdrage itself wouldn't get the New Yorker to pay attention, for instance.

[GuyIncognito]

xxskyshadowxx wrote...
So was it the end of Shepard's story truly, or the end of your/my Shepard's story? Bioware needs to learn to stop talking out of both ends....then the backlash upon release of their games would be less.

Conflicting information is always going to throw the proverbial monkey wrench into things with the statements where its been said otherwise.

[MICHELLE7]

MortalEngines wrote...

slyguy200 wrote...

I doubt any past up-roar has matched this.

More games, more fans, more uproar.

more expectations...I think people expected more for the finale game in the series especially since there were so many tweets promising things that didn't pan out.

The only uproar over ME2 that I can remember was over the reduced role of ME1 squadmates...that they would not be on the squad...they limited the discussion to one thread and as I recall it got quite nasty.

I missed a lot of the DA2 uproar...I actually enjoyed the game in spite of its shortcomings (bugs were terrible among other things) and was too busy playing to realize what was going on. Played quite a few times. By the time I got back to the forums a lot of the stuff was over...I was even a little confused as to why some people were so mad. But I think once again it comes back to expectations...everyone has high expectations for BW games and when they miss it people get upset.

[GuyIncognito]

slyguy200 wrote...
I doubt anyone would have cared much if not for the statements being so very clearly wrong about the facts.

I do believe sir that you are absolutely correct.

[Timmeh7]

BioWare were once an almost unparalleled ARPG developer. Being entirely objective (based on seemingly majority opinion) DA2 was rather weak, ME3 had serious ending issues. It's not that they turn out *bad* games, even DA2 wasn't bad, but they simply don't live up to the standard of older BioWare games. Expectations from their older material are so high that it's a disappointment when they aren't met.

In reality of course, BioWare used to churn out 90% games like nothing, now they churn out 70%ers. Nothing wrong with 70%ers, some studios would be thrilled to manage it, but it's really unmet fan expectations that drive the disappointment.

[kbct]

AlanC9 wrote...

Artemis_Entrari wrote...
How do you figure that?  Did the co-founder of BioWare have to issue a statement following DA2's release?  Did it's game producer have to issue a release?  Did numerous non-gaming publications pick up the story and run with it?

The backlash from ME3 far exceeds any of BioWare's previous games.  The only proof you need is the sheer publicity this received from all sorts of publications, gaming or otherwise.

But the attention is at least in part because there actually was a Retake movement. I won't speak for the gaming press since I generally don't follow it, but the thing the mainstream folks seem to find interesting is the idea that fans were demanding and might actually get changes to the game. Nerdrage itself wouldn't get the New Yorker to pay attention, for instance.

"Nerdrage," as you call it, DID get cause the New Yorker to pay attention. Although it first had to make Ray state that BioWare would clarify the ending. Without the huge numbers of dissatified customers, none of this would have happened.

It wasn't just the New Yorker either. Off the top of my head I can think of CBS, Wall Street Journal, Der Spiegel, New York Daily News, CNN, BBC, Forbes, and MSNBC. All wrote articles on the ending fiasco.

The scope of mainstream media involvement is unprecedented. It's just one of the reasons why I say I've never seen anything like this before.

[AlanC9]

Dridengx wrote...

Exactly. every single game got hate.

NWN hate for being too actiony and like diablo, and bad campaign
kotor got hate which you mentioned
Jade empire even got hate now suddenly everyone wants a sequel
DA got hate for lack of being BG
DA2 got hate for graphics and everything else including NOT being like DA
ME got hate for being xbox exclusive, then hate for coming to PC, then hate for everything else
TOR got hate for stuff as well including the story
ME3 well for everything but the music

of course ME3 is the worst because everyone knows Scifi geeks are the most local and whiny. Look at Star Trek, Serenity, Star Wars, Green lantern, Star Gate, etc etc

Good list.

Don't forget BG2 and ME2, which both got hate for removing exploration. ME2 also got hate for not having a central story -- BG2 had the same story structure but for some reason wasn't hated for it.

[AlanC9]

kbct wrote...

"Nerdrage," as you call it, DID get cause the New Yorker to pay attention. Although it first had to make Ray state that BioWare would clarify the ending. Without the huge numbers of dissatified customers, none of this would have happened.

Did we read the same New Yorker article? The article I read was about how Retake was something unprecedented and even ominous, whereas ME3 itself was just a game where the ending fell a bit flat.

Modifié par AlanC9, 09 avril 2012 - 11:20 .

[Fadook]

Sanunes wrote...

Artemis_Entrari wrote...

Faust1979 wrote...

killnoob wrote...

i did not see any large scale backlash with DAO....even the poo storm of DA2 wasn't as big as this

I thought the DA2 backlash was worse actually

How do you figure that?  Did the co-founder of BioWare have to issue a statement following DA2's release?  Did it's game producer have to issue a release?  Did numerous non-gaming publications pick up the story and run with it?

The backlash from ME3 far exceeds any of BioWare's previous games.  The only proof you need is the sheer publicity this received from all sorts of publications, gaming or otherwise.

1) Yes.
2) Yes.
3) You are correct.

I personally believe if Dragon Age 2 was released in the current media circus it would be covered the same if not more then Mass Effect 3 because of how people were reacting to it.

I don't think so because the Mass Effect franchise is much bigger than Dragon Age. The ME games are a lot more popular and will naturally attract much more attention. The high profile of the series is a big part of the reason the backlash about the endings has been so strong and so widely reported. 

[Artemis_Entrari]

AlanC9 wrote...

Artemis_Entrari wrote...
How do you figure that?  Did the co-founder of BioWare have to issue a statement following DA2's release?  Did it's game producer have to issue a release?  Did numerous non-gaming publications pick up the story and run with it?

The backlash from ME3 far exceeds any of BioWare's previous games.  The only proof you need is the sheer publicity this received from all sorts of publications, gaming or otherwise.

But the attention is at least in part because there actually was a Retake movement. I won't speak for the gaming press since I generally don't follow it, but the thing the mainstream folks seem to find interesting is the idea that fans were demanding and might actually get changes to the game. Nerdrage itself wouldn't get the New Yorker to pay attention, for instance.

But that still doesn't refute what I said.  There was a retake movement because of the sheer number of folks who passionately hated the game's ending.  DA2 had fans who hated it, but not nearly the number or the passion to actually cause an uproar that would draw the attention of both BioWare and the gaming/non-gaming press.

I really don't see how folks can dispute this.  This is the first time BioWare has even come close to "caving".  If the uproar was as great or greater for previous games, why would they suddenly do so now if they haven't in the past?

Modifié par Artemis_Entrari, 09 avril 2012 - 11:22 .