713 réponses à ce sujet

[kbct]

AlanC9 wrote...

kbct wrote...

"Nerdrage," as you call it, DID get cause the New Yorker to pay attention. Although it first had to make Ray state that BioWare would clarify the ending. Without the huge numbers of dissatified customers, none of this would have happened.

Did we read the same New Yorker article? The article I read was about how Retake was something unprecedented and even ominous, whereas ME3 itself was just a game where the ending fell a bit flat.

The sheer fact that they are reporting on the fallout from the end of a game is what makes it important. The article itself is irrelevant.

Think about it. When was last time CBS, Wall Street Journal, Der Spiegel, New York Daily News, CNN, BBC, Forbes, MSNBC and The New Yorker all wrote articles over the controversy surrounding a game?

It's unprecedented.

Modifié par kbct, 09 avril 2012 - 11:28 .

[Gnaeus.Silvanus]

Why is there fan rage whenever a new Bioware game comes out?

This is the by-product of Dragon Age 2, now every game Bioware releases most likely some fan or fans will hate it. But basically its an EA thing.

[Artemis_Entrari]

Sanunes wrote...


1) Yes.
2) Yes.
3) You are correct.

I personally believe if Dragon Age 2 was released in the current media circus it would be covered the same if not more then Mass Effect 3 because of how people were reacting to it.

Dr. Ray Muzyka released a statement after DA2?  I know that Laidlaw commented quite a lot about DA2, but I don't recall any of the head honchos basically releasing a "we're listening, we're going to hopefully fix what bothers you, so please don't rage too much" press release.

Modifié par Artemis_Entrari, 09 avril 2012 - 11:32 .

[kbct]

Artemis_Entrari wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Artemis_Entrari wrote...
How do you figure that?  Did the co-founder of BioWare have to issue a statement following DA2's release?  Did it's game producer have to issue a release?  Did numerous non-gaming publications pick up the story and run with it?

The backlash from ME3 far exceeds any of BioWare's previous games.  The only proof you need is the sheer publicity this received from all sorts of publications, gaming or otherwise.

But the attention is at least in part because there actually was a Retake movement. I won't speak for the gaming press since I generally don't follow it, but the thing the mainstream folks seem to find interesting is the idea that fans were demanding and might actually get changes to the game. Nerdrage itself wouldn't get the New Yorker to pay attention, for instance.

But that still doesn't refute what I said.  There was a retake movement because of the sheer number of folks who passionately hated the game's ending.  DA2 had fans who hated it, but not nearly the number or the passion to actually cause an uproar that would draw the attention of both BioWare and the gaming/non-gaming press.

I really don't see how folks can dispute this.  This is the first time BioWare has even come close to "caving".  If the uproar was as great or greater for previous games, why would they suddenly do so now if they haven't in the past?

Agreed. All measures point to this being the largest backlash in BioWare's history.

[Tovanus]

Gatt9 wrote...

Tovanus wrote...

Ethical wrote...

Imo DA2 hate wasn't as bad as ME3; the ME3 outrage seems to have more passion since there is a solution to it while for DA2 there was NO solution in sight short of scraping the whole thing and starting over from scratch.

I think there's a lot of truth to this. My impression of the hate for DA 2 was that it was mediocre in plot, and the gameplay was atrocious. But the problems existed for the game as a whole, and whatever faults the game had, it didn't "break" the franchise. It didn't make the plot of DA: O seem less epic or interesting. And DA 2 was never advertised as the exciting conclusion to the story of Dragon Age. It's the second in a series of games.

Mass Effect 3 though.... everyone feels like they just need to fix the last ten minutes. Something that can be done with new dialogue and cutscenes, and maybe just removing one scene altogther and pretending it never happened. (I'm looking at you Starchild).

You should all check out the new video by the Understated Nerd Rage guy. It's about the new announcement from Bioware. He makes some good points. The fans feel like there could have been a fix, and Bioware's lack of meaningful engagement was probably not helpful in PR terms. (I don't view a twitter feed with people who can't make decisions or the ocassional mod jumping in to a conversation as meaningful engagement, since they don't make the decisions, though I do like the people who do those jobs).

I would disagree on the difference in reaction to ME3 and DA2.

With DA2,  Gamers had months of foreknowledge that the game was a mess.  We knew ahead of time that the dialogue was simplified and heavily color-coded for people that hate reading,  we knew ahead of time that the combat system was hyper-action,  and that the game wasn't a sequel to DAO.  So when it was released,  and we found out about the teleporting waves,  bad writing,  and reused maps,  many of us had already decided not to buy it.  So we just felt our opinions were justified,  and tried to communicate to Bioware why we didn't like this direction (Which failed,  the DA2 team isn't interested in hearing gamer's concerns).

With ME3,  Bioware deceived us all the way up until release.  We didn't find out that the best ending isn't possible in SP,  or that our decisions didn't matter at all,  until we bought the game.  So we ended up alot more ticked off,  because we were tricked into buying something we may have passed on.  I would've cancelled my preorder if Bioware had told me MP was forced,  or that decisions didn't matter.

It was the deception that provided the difference.  If we'd been deceived for DA2,  that would've been the same firestorm.

That's a good point. I didn't consider the pre-publicity for DA 2's problems vs. the main problem of ME 3 only being really understood after release. (I still remember articles about achievements not requiring multiplayer in ME 3 - which was not something they stuck with, given the Defender achievement in the game). Though multiplayer didn't get me angry at all (I actually kind of enjoyed it), the deception anger is something I definitely understand.

I will say though that I think if DA 2 had ended with you talking to a spirit who told you that the darkspawn was his solution to the problem of humans, elves, and dwarves constantly killing each other - since darkspawn helped unite the races and stopped them from fighting - that the furor over DA 2 would probably have been larger, even if people were expecting the game to be crap. I really do think that a lot of the anger at ME 3 is partially based on feeling like it demeaned the entire journey of their character through the entire franchise, even in prior games that were good.

[Drake_Hound]

Why is it not so hard to get the rage this time ?
sure first playtrough same as me 2 lets play the canon game he it is ok .
ending who cares it isn't my shepard it is bioware shepard , ok ending not terrific not that bad what are the fans raving about , it isn't the best of endings , but I have no attachement to that bioware shepard .

game is fine , lets load my import , you know the one that gets all the girls , super cool tough soldier dude , wow terrific a lot of small changes and wonderfull extra dialogue lines.

come to the end , WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF ... lets reload can't be WTF......
oh so let me see , do not get attached to characters, do not get emotional do not buy or play the game, cause it is beter to watch somebody else game on youtube .

RAGEEEEE not justified ?

[NS Wizdum]

Drake_Hound wrote...

Why is it not so hard to get the rage this time ?
sure first playtrough same as me 2 lets play the canon game he it is ok .
ending who cares it isn't my shepard it is bioware shepard , ok ending not terrific not that bad what are the fans raving about , it isn't the best of endings , but I have no attachement to that bioware shepard .

game is fine , lets load my import , you know the one that gets all the girls , super cool tough soldier dude , wow terrific a lot of small changes and wonderfull extra dialogue lines.

come to the end , WTF WTF WTF WTF WTF ... lets reload can't be WTF......
oh so let me see , do not get attached to characters, do not get emotional do not buy or play the game, cause it is beter to watch somebody else game on youtube .

RAGEEEEE not justified ?

What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having read it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul. 

Modifié par NS Wizdum, 09 avril 2012 - 11:46 .

[-Skorpious-]

Believe me; DA2 was a drop in a pond compared to ME3's reception. ME3 has inspired non-gaming media to air/publish stories on ME3's ending, Forbes has been writing weekly articles regarding ME3, gaming giants such as IGN and Penny Arcade have openly attacked the ME fanbase (the latter pulling the plug on the Child's Play charity), and much, much more.

So yeah, ME3 easily tops DA2.

[Cyne]

The amount of fan outrage is directly proportional to the how emotionally invested fans are in the story as a result of previous games in the franchise, and the level of quality they've come to expect from bioware. In an indirect way, it says a lot about what bioware is capable of, and if and when their priorities have apparently shifted.

Modifié par Cyne, 09 avril 2012 - 11:48 .

[Abraham_uk]

Eain wrote...

RocketManSR2 wrote...

lol Should I feel guilty that I enjoyed ME3? That's the feeling I get when I come here now. >.>

No, we all enjoyed ME3.

But your faculties of reason will be questioned for liking an ending so full of plotholes. I still can't get around the fact that there are people here (however small a minority they may be) who don't see those.

It wasn't a great ending. But it hasn't ruined my life. It was just a bad ending.

Seriously it's almost as if you're singing this tune all the time.




I'll give the fans credit for the amount of money raised. Heck there was that much needed epilogue as FREE DLC as a result. Not all bad.

This ending will still "hurt you all the time" though.

Modifié par Abraham_uk, 09 avril 2012 - 11:51 .

[Drake_Hound]

@ NZ wisdum can't stand realisme and truth , then ask others to give opnion ?
but put a ad honiem to hide the truth ?

blind devotion carries so far , it is beter to watch the game on youtube then play this game with attachement , so nice try no wonder you don't understand .
cause you mind is stuck in a loop of your own imagination .
I sincerly hope you that angry birds and other simple click your time are invented for people like you , since in your mind they are not angry birds , they are eh round balls ..
and you are not waisting time clicking on screen cause of New type of disorder , and then have the need to tell everybody it is a wonderfull disorder .

[Korusus]

I will say that the ME3 ending has generated a lot more focused energy, whereas DA2 generated a lot of productive debate both between fellow fans, but also between BioWare and the fans. I haven't seen that with Mass Effect, frankly I've never seen it with Mass Effect.

I for one **** out of love. I know BioWare has some very talented people working for them, and I know for a fact that they can produce a definitively better game than DA2 by just trying even a little bit. DA2 does not keep to BioWare's own high standards, blame that on EA or whoever it doesn't really matter. Love the game or hate the game it deserved all the flak thrown at it.

To me the ME3 ending is a completely different kind of problem, so much that the two aren't comparable. DA2's problems were quantifiable and related to quality, ME3's ending is not so cut and dry as that.

[NS Wizdum]

Drake_Hound wrote...

@ NZ wisdum can't stand realisme and truth , then ask others to give opnion ?
but put a ad honiem to hide the truth ?

blind devotion carries so far , it is beter to watch the game on youtube then play this game with attachement , so nice try no wonder you don't understand .
cause you mind is stuck in a loop of your own imagination .
I sincerly hope you that angry birds and other simple click your time are invented for people like you , since in your mind they are not angry birds , they are eh round balls ..
and you are not waisting time clicking on screen cause of New type of disorder , and then have the need to tell everybody it is a wonderfull disorder .

I think i'm on the same side as you, I just can't understand what you are saying. From your first post, it appeared that you were just rambling. From this reply, it seems that English is not your native language, my apologies.

It is hard to tell the difference between Americans and people who's native language is not English sometimes.

The reason Bioware is able to see this level of response, is due to their past accomplishments. They create amazing games. I don't even like RPGs, but after purchasing ME1 on Steam for $5 (because for $5, why not add it to my rainy day list?) I was hooked on the game, the characters, and the story. It hurts to see an ending that is not fitting of the rest of the story.

Modifié par NS Wizdum, 10 avril 2012 - 12:02 .

[Tovanus]

NS Wizdum wrote...

Drake_Hound wrote...

@ NZ wisdum can't stand realisme and truth , then ask others to give opnion ?
but put a ad honiem to hide the truth ?

blind devotion carries so far , it is beter to watch the game on youtube then play this game with attachement , so nice try no wonder you don't understand .
cause you mind is stuck in a loop of your own imagination .
I sincerly hope you that angry birds and other simple click your time are invented for people like you , since in your mind they are not angry birds , they are eh round balls ..
and you are not waisting time clicking on screen cause of New type of disorder , and then have the need to tell everybody it is a wonderfull disorder .

I think i'm on the same side as you, I just can't understand what you are saying. From your first post, it appeared that you were just rambling. From this reply, it seems that English is not your native language, my apologies.

It is hard to tell the difference between Americans and people who's native language is not English sometimes.

The reason Bioware is able to see this level of response, is due to their past accomplishments. They create amazing games. I don't even like RPGs, but after purchasing ME1 on Steam for $5 (because for $5, why not add it to my rainy day list?) I was hooked on the game, the characters, and the story. It hurts to see an ending that is not fitting of the rest of the story.

I think most of us feel the same way about the ending. I have to admit, when you said that about him, I did think it was slightly rude, but I knew it wasn't as rude as it appeared, because I recognized that you were using an opportunity to slip in what is probably the funniest quote from Billy Madison. It's hard not to appreciate that.

[Wynteryth]

One of the biggest reasons that it seems like ME3 is getting more "rage" than DA:2 is because the fans are more integrated with the media, now, than they were just 2 years ago.. This is because the use of YouTube, Twitter, and Facebook has exploded in the last 2 years.

Another reason was that there was so much HYPE behind ME3. It's the first game that I can remember that started taking pre-orders more than a year in advance of the release date. I can remember games that were 2-3 months, but a FULL YEAR! So, BioWare really only has themselves to blame for this fiasco. They hyped up the game and they failed to follow through. Not to mention they collected a bunch of interest on millions of pre-orders that they had for 6 months to a year ahead of the game's release.

Others have mentioned how BioWare outright lied to everyone with their interviews. They basically built up the expectations and failed to bring those expectations to the fans with the final product. Not to mention that the person running their PR has done a horrible job in trying to mitigate the situation. As someone mentioned in this thread, the PR statements have been like gasoline on a fire. They've done nothing but make the situation worse.

After the DA:2 debacle, I said that I hoped that BioWare learned from it and didn't make the same mistake with ME3. Well, for the most part, they did. 95% of the game was good. The last 10 minutes, though, ruined the story because it was in direct conflict with many of the facts the games had established previously.

I can honestly say that I won't be pre-ordering DA:3 or any of the follow-up ME games that might be released. Unless something major changes, I just don't see BioWare's level of commitment being there for the fans so my commitment won't be there for them. Oh, and the "extended cut DLC" isn't my idea of something major. That's my idea of slapping a band-aid on a hole in a dam and thinking that everything is ok..

[mupp3tz]

People will always complain about a game no matter how "good" it is; however, there's not many games that come to mind that have as much negative reaction as Mass Effect 3's ending has had.  Obviously, you can't please everyone... but you also shouldn't ****** off a large amount of your fanbase, either.  There's a difference.

Modifié par M U P P 3 T Z, 10 avril 2012 - 12:26 .

[kenshun666]

PaddlePop wrote...

spacehamsterZH wrote...

Mere weeks before ME3 came out, if this board was any indication, ME2 was the worst game of all time and had effectively ruined the Mass Effect franchise.

Now ME1 and 2 are both brilliant, and ME3 is the retarded stepchild. And so it goes.

If you compare it to ME3, ME2 is definitely the better game, but it still pales in comparison to the first. That just means, Bioware is throwing darts at a wall,  while blindfolded. The point you thought you're making is not nearly as clever as you might believe.. lol.
:innocent:

     i disagree whereas me3 did have some flaws it was better than two and two was better than one but overall it still made an amazing game series and i think all the ending needs is slightly more dialogue and explanations

[Il Divo]

Artemis_Entrari wrote...

But that still doesn't refute what I said.  There was a retake movement because of the sheer number of folks who passionately hated the game's ending.  DA2 had fans who hated it, but not nearly the number or the passion to actually cause an uproar that would draw the attention of both BioWare and the gaming/non-gaming press.

I really don't see how folks can dispute this.  This is the first time BioWare has even come close to "caving".  If the uproar was as great or greater for previous games, why would they suddenly do so now if they haven't in the past?

There is some level of truth to this. The typical level of outrage has never gotten Bioware to respond so soon after release before. And I think a large part of it is the level of investment in ME3 vs. DA2. DA2 was an independent story from the original. Yes, alot of people thought it sucked, but it had little to no relevance to the story arch in Origins. ME3  itself was the conclusion to a story arc began five years earlier, which players have been waiting to see the finale to. The outrage of ME3, at least the organized outrage, puts anything against DA2 to shame.   

[Gatt9]

Tovanus wrote...

Gatt9 wrote...

Tovanus wrote...

Ethical wrote...

Imo DA2 hate wasn't as bad as ME3; the ME3 outrage seems to have more passion since there is a solution to it while for DA2 there was NO solution in sight short of scraping the whole thing and starting over from scratch.

I think there's a lot of truth to this. My impression of the hate for DA 2 was that it was mediocre in plot, and the gameplay was atrocious. But the problems existed for the game as a whole, and whatever faults the game had, it didn't "break" the franchise. It didn't make the plot of DA: O seem less epic or interesting. And DA 2 was never advertised as the exciting conclusion to the story of Dragon Age. It's the second in a series of games.

Mass Effect 3 though.... everyone feels like they just need to fix the last ten minutes. Something that can be done with new dialogue and cutscenes, and maybe just removing one scene altogther and pretending it never happened. (I'm looking at you Starchild).

You should all check out the new video by the Understated Nerd Rage guy. It's about the new announcement from Bioware. He makes some good points. The fans feel like there could have been a fix, and Bioware's lack of meaningful engagement was probably not helpful in PR terms. (I don't view a twitter feed with people who can't make decisions or the ocassional mod jumping in to a conversation as meaningful engagement, since they don't make the decisions, though I do like the people who do those jobs).

I would disagree on the difference in reaction to ME3 and DA2.

With DA2,  Gamers had months of foreknowledge that the game was a mess.  We knew ahead of time that the dialogue was simplified and heavily color-coded for people that hate reading,  we knew ahead of time that the combat system was hyper-action,  and that the game wasn't a sequel to DAO.  So when it was released,  and we found out about the teleporting waves,  bad writing,  and reused maps,  many of us had already decided not to buy it.  So we just felt our opinions were justified,  and tried to communicate to Bioware why we didn't like this direction (Which failed,  the DA2 team isn't interested in hearing gamer's concerns).

With ME3,  Bioware deceived us all the way up until release.  We didn't find out that the best ending isn't possible in SP,  or that our decisions didn't matter at all,  until we bought the game.  So we ended up alot more ticked off,  because we were tricked into buying something we may have passed on.  I would've cancelled my preorder if Bioware had told me MP was forced,  or that decisions didn't matter.

It was the deception that provided the difference.  If we'd been deceived for DA2,  that would've been the same firestorm.

That's a good point. I didn't consider the pre-publicity for DA 2's problems vs. the main problem of ME 3 only being really understood after release. (I still remember articles about achievements not requiring multiplayer in ME 3 - which was not something they stuck with, given the Defender achievement in the game). Though multiplayer didn't get me angry at all (I actually kind of enjoyed it), the deception anger is something I definitely understand.

I will say though that I think if DA 2 had ended with you talking to a spirit who told you that the darkspawn was his solution to the problem of humans, elves, and dwarves constantly killing each other - since darkspawn helped unite the races and stopped them from fighting - that the furor over DA 2 would probably have been larger, even if people were expecting the game to be crap. I really do think that a lot of the anger at ME 3 is partially based on feeling like it demeaned the entire journey of their character through the entire franchise, even in prior games that were good.

I agree with your points,  I think we should combine our two explanations into a synthesis of expanations,  thus solving all of the conflict on this topic.  Do you want to walk into the green beam or should I?

Sorry,  I couldn't resist,  but I do think that if we combine both of our rationales,  we probably have an explanation that covers the majority.

[kbct]

Gatt9 wrote...

I agree with your points,  I think we should combine our two explanations into a synthesis of expanations,  thus solving all of the conflict on this topic.  Do you want to walk into the green beam or should I?

You make good points as well. It was a confluence of events that created this perfect sh!tstorm of discontent.

[Gatt9]

Korusus wrote...

I will say that the ME3 ending has generated a lot more focused energy, whereas DA2 generated a lot of productive debate both between fellow fans, but also between BioWare and the fans. I haven't seen that with Mass Effect, frankly I've never seen it with Mass Effect.

I for one **** out of love. I know BioWare has some very talented people working for them, and I know for a fact that they can produce a definitively better game than DA2 by just trying even a little bit. DA2 does not keep to BioWare's own high standards, blame that on EA or whoever it doesn't really matter. Love the game or hate the game it deserved all the flak thrown at it.

To me the ME3 ending is a completely different kind of problem, so much that the two aren't comparable. DA2's problems were quantifiable and related to quality, ME3's ending is not so cut and dry as that.

Productive debate?  I would have to strongly disagree.  First the DA2 team blamed 4chan for the reception,  and then in the interviews they insisted the problem wasn't their game,  it was that the gamer's "Just didn't get it",  and implied that the problem was that gamers were clinging to "Old types of games" that are somehow now bad.  Nevermind that we're talking an "Old type of game" from the year prior that sold quite well. 

They even tossed more gas on the fire with musings on replacing even the little bits of dialogue with icons,  and buttons to skip combat. 

The Bioware response was anything but productive.  It was antagonistic IMO,  and blamed everyone but the people who created DA2 for it's problems.

I have never heard someone say that ME2 ruined the trilogy, they were either trolling or cynical freaks. However ME1 was better in my consideration. ME3 needs work on the ending and more.

This is probably true.  I'm an ardent opponent of ME2,  and even I didn't say ME2 ruined the trilogy,  just that it wasn't a 9/10 game.  TBH,  I'd probably rate ME2 higher than ME3,  I didn't think it was possible to create a plot-hole bigger than the resurrection...Guess I underestimated Bioware's ability to create plot-holes.

[Kenshen]

AzaggThoth wrote...

aryon69 wrote...

First of all many of us have been supporting BW and their games for a long time now and do hold them to a higher standard, which probably isn't fair but looking back at the other games they have made the quality and excellence is there.

On the other hand there will always be people that are not happy with something and it doesn't matter what game or who made it. Usually that group is a rather small but vocal group. Looking past all the hate the ending threads there are still threads about this or that that someone didn't like so that hasn't changed. However the main focus of the hate/rage atm is targeted at the ending and for good reason but that is my opinion.

I do think something positive can be taken from all the hate that is currently out there and that is most people wouldn't get this bent about a video game if they really didn't care about it or the series to start with. Sure some only care about the cost of the game but I want to think most are like me that are so disappointed about so many things it is hard to put into words.

On the higher standards bit, it does not help BioWares case that they helped to set those standards so high in the first place then failed to deliver what they said they would. This is turning into as much a rage against poor customer service and the lowering of standards as it is against the endings on their own.

Oh I agree with you and meant to add that part into my post but got distracted here at work.

[Tovanus]

Gatt9 wrote...

I agree with your points,  I think we should combine our two explanations into a synthesis of expanations,  thus solving all of the conflict on this topic.  Do you want to walk into the green beam or should I?

Sorry,  I couldn't resist,  but I do think that if we combine both of our rationales,  we probably have an explanation that covers the majority.

Thanks! I felt pretty good about the darkspawn analogy. Synthesis sounds pretty good. Though maybe that's just because I've not been able to find those handles that let me unleash the blue beam of control over the forums. And I've not been able to find the tube to shoot that unleashes the red beam to destroy differing opinions on the forums.