713 réponses à ce sujet

[aries1001]

I've been a part of these boards since 1998 or 1999, I think. And I do remember the uproar on the forums that happened when Ray M. and Greg Z. mentioned that BG2 wouldn't be a free-roaming RPG like BG1 was. People got mad back then, and people got mad when NWN was released, because as first it was announced as a sort of MMO/MUltiplayer hybrid and not with a singleplayer campaign.

People got mad at DA: Origins because of the marketing campaign, not because it wasn't BG1 or BG2.
When people got to play DA: Origins, nearly all loved it. Heralded as the spiritual succession to BG1 and BG2, DA: O became well received both by critics and fans alike.

The short answer is this: people get mad because they care.

The longer answer is this: If people didn't care, people wouldn't get mad. And people get mad because they're emotionally involved and attached to Bioware and the games Bioware makes. If people were indifferent, they wouldn't speak up.

[Eain]

Stanley Woo wrote...
Of course it's unprecedented. Just as when you're growing, each time you grow an inch, your height is unprecedented. We got a ton more people in our community when ME3 was coming up to release. It was only natural that more people would participate in the forums after they got the game.

Stanley, I'm sorry, but this is just a wishful misrepresentation of the facts. I don't think I should point out why that is, I understand that you're just trying to exercise some damage control here.

Let's not try to put this whole thing down to "we got bigger in popularity, so naturally more people disagree with what we do." That's PR speak, and anyone with an ounce of common sense knows that the ratio of people who like the ending vs the ones who don't is disproportionally skewed. A simple growth in fan following cannot explain that, it can only explain absolute, not relative, numbers.

I think it would grace Bioware to just admit to an error in judgement when it comes to concluding the trilogy. I personally really do not understand why this all had to be such a big deal in the first place.

Modifié par Eain, 10 avril 2012 - 11:21 .

[TheKristoffski]

blacqout wrote...

I think that BioWare are trying to take their games in a new direction, and not all fans are willing to evolve with them. Much of the complaints against ME2 and DAII were about how "dumbed down" the RPG elements were.

Similar criticisms can be made about ME3, though obviously the ending is getting all the attention.

Personally i really like the striped back / simplified approach to traditional RPG elements.

Im with you on that one, although ever since Ive played Bioware games, the only thing I've ever cared about is character content, and story, gameplay and graphics for me are not essential and are not what excite me about playing games

[Stanley Woo]

Sorry, Eain, but when you throw around phrases like "I understand that you're just trying to exercise some damage control here" and "That's PR speak," I don't have a hope in hell in having a sincere conversation with you. If you're going to dismiss anything that doesn't absolutely agree with you and what you want to hear as "PR speak," you have effectively shut yourself off from listening to what I have to say.

[Faust1979]

mattahraw wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

People got angry when Jade Empire came out because it was a different setting, and it was an action RPG.

Those people are silly and Jade Empire is amazing.

Jade Empire is indeed and amazing game and a unique world I love it!

[Avolie]

Stanley Woo wrote...

People got angry when NWN came out and it wasn't BG.
People got angry when KotOR came out because it was a console game.
People got angry when Jade Empire came out because it was a different setting, and it was an action RPG.
People got angry when Mass Effect came out because it was a shooter.
People got angry when Dragon Age: Origins came out because it wasn't BG.
People got angry when DA2 came out because it wasn't DAO.
People got angry when ME2 came out because it wasn't ME1.
And now people are angry at ME3.

The cycle will continue as long as people feel they have an inalienable right to never be disappointed, or that their money entitles them to be rude or condescending to others, or that their opinions are the only, best, or right ones.

+

[fruton]

Stanley Woo wrote...
Of course it's unprecedented. Just as when you're growing, each time you grow an inch, your height is unprecedented. We got a ton more people in our community when ME3 was coming up to release. It was only natural that more people would participate in the forums after they got the game.

The thing is, in some cases it's justified.

In my opinion, most people dont care for forums unless theres a problem. Other than the ending issues (i'm yet to see it so can't comment) the next biggest problem I see is the face import problem.

I must say the way this has been dealt with has been far less than stellar and theres a 332 page thread on this topic which was made by a Bioware rep and supposed to be updated regularly. He's posted in it twice in over a month, both times without any real information. It appears this particular person has a cavalier attitude to the consumer when you look at his comments in other threads and his twitter feed. Particularly when any other threads made on the subject usually get locked and pointed to that same thread.

This is when fan rage is entirely justified and I hope you guys take note, because alot of people are really upset over this, including me. Mainly just over the way it's been handled.

Modifié par fruton, 10 avril 2012 - 11:37 .

[LPPrince]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Sorry, Eain, but when you throw around phrases like "I understand that you're just trying to exercise some damage control here" and "That's PR speak," I don't have a hope in hell in having a sincere conversation with you. If you're going to dismiss anything that doesn't absolutely agree with you and what you want to hear as "PR speak," you have effectively shut yourself off from listening to what I have to say.

I'm not gonna lie Stan- you're coming off as a little harsh/abrasive in this thread.

Might want to tell people you love them or something.

[phat0817]

I never posted on forums until now. Even after I finished Da2 and found the ending there to my disliking as well. This seems pretty crazy for me3 and people are saying da2 was worse? Man this just doesn't bold well for Bioware

[Eain]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Sorry, Eain, but when you throw around phrases like "I understand that you're just trying to exercise some damage control here" and "That's PR speak," I don't have a hope in hell in having a sincere conversation with you. If you're going to dismiss anything that doesn't absolutely agree with you and what you want to hear as "PR speak," you have effectively shut yourself off from listening to what I have to say.

Alright, honesty then. Not me as a customer, or even a fan, but a person.

I don't get Bioware's response, at all. And that means the way that almost anyone with a Bioware tag answers to anything. Now there's either two reasons I don't get it:

1) I'm not a very smart person, and I fail to understand a lot about basic communication.
2) There's a decision on the Bioware side to treat certain matters in a certain way.

I'm not new to the internet. I've been an active forumgoer for at least fifteen years, and I've seen multitudes of angry fans come and go at a multitude of different forums. Every company deals with an angry fanbase in the same way; they try to marginalise the situation. Blizzard does it, Epic does, Bioware does it.

When you're trying to put this whole rage over the ending down to the fact that Bioware's following has simply grown, and that there are thus more angry people, you're purposefuly confusing absolute growth with relative growth. I know that the people who work at Bioware aren't silly, and neither are the community managers running this forum. Everyone knows that the outrage over the trilogy's conclusion has nothing to do with simple growth in following. In the words of Mordin in ME2: "please, accounted for all possibilities, not an amateur."

Bioware are not amateurs and you guys know very well why what's happening is happening. Why else are so many devs and writers currently going back on things that Walters and Hudson said about the game before launch? Why else is Bioware giving us an extended cut while also making some changes as to what the endings seem to imply?

So when you're here on the forum marginalising the fan response I'm not gonna put that down on malice on your part, or malice on bioware's part, or stupidity, or anything of the sort. I don't underestimate you. It's just a chosen line, coordinated to some degree between community managers and probably the dev team, a way of trying to present a different point of view while keeping the conversation civil. The problem is, however, that this kind of alternate viewpoint for its own sake can make the company seem impenetrable and hard to reach, as if our most logical reasons for objecting to the way the game ended just aren't registering. Cue more anger from already annoyed fans.

If not, and I am absolutely wrong, I'm very interested in how any of this can be explained away by just fan growth. Because I can't see it, and neither can a lot of other people.

Absolutely no malice or ill will intended by anything said in this post. I understand you're angry (or at least, you seem to be a bit snappy ), and that's fine. Gods know that Bioware's gotten a lot of ****ty treatment lately. I'm a hard guy to upset. The only thing that bothered me is the ending really, haha. If there's anything that bothers you about this response, let me know.

Modifié par Eain, 10 avril 2012 - 11:52 .

[Kenshen]

Stanley Woo wrote...People got angry when KotOR came out because it was a console game...

I know my memory isn't that good anymore but I don't remember this one.  Was KotoR first released on the concole before PC?  Or is it that is was also released onto the concole systems?

Stanley Woo wrote...People got angry when Jade Empire came out because it was a different setting, and it was an action RPG..

This one i do seem to recall but for me this is one of the many reasons I loved JE.   Then again couldn't one debate that all games, least the ones listed in your post could be considered action RPGs?  For me I think this is the very reason why BW games have been so addicting for me as they have a great balance between action/fighting and RP.

[animadpig]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Sorry, Eain, but when you throw around phrases like "I understand that you're just trying to exercise some damage control here" and "That's PR speak," I don't have a hope in hell in having a sincere conversation with you. If you're going to dismiss anything that doesn't absolutely agree with you and what you want to hear as "PR speak," you have effectively shut yourself off from listening to what I have to say.

Well, what you want to tell us? Or, you are willing to answer us some question regard about the multiple endings of ME3 promised before the game released. I have a lot of questions and suggestions about the game. However,we only have two vague statement from Mr. Hudson and Dr. Muzyka, and one official rejection about the multiple endings.

So, what you want to tell us? I am listening and will reply because I am not some company pretend listening but ignoring actually.

[TreguardD]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Sorry, Eain, but when you throw around phrases like "I understand that you're just trying to exercise some damage control here" and "That's PR speak," I don't have a hope in hell in having a sincere conversation with you. If you're going to dismiss anything that doesn't absolutely agree with you and what you want to hear as "PR speak," you have effectively shut yourself off from listening to what I have to say.

I'm more than happy to play that game. Mr. Allan Schumacher engaged us with it in this thread: social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/11163788/19#11265598 not long ago.

If you've not watched it before, I ask you to watch this: (Mass Effect 3's Ending by: Tastfully Understated Nerdrage (Spoilers)). The rest of us in this thread: we've seen it before.

It's a bit long winded at times, but it's not insulting.

I would pay (probably in cupcakes) to hear your reaction.

-John

[aries1001]

As for the release of DA2 last year, I can clearly remember the posts made by forumites and others - ehm - not forumites. And in at least once instance I've discovered and reported a death thread aimed at Bioware DA2 member to a dev. Also, people made threads about this or this dev. should be fired at a daily basis or on hourly basis, it seemed. I've only seen 1 or maybe 2 calls for people on the ME3 should be fired. (not by me, though).

However, the DA2 team (including Stanley Woo and David Gaider) were quick to point out that the game was indeed a bit rushed, and Mike Laidlaw was quick to admit that he made the decision to re-use areas. It is not like Bioware hasn't re-used areas before. I've just finished playing NWN, the first. And many times, the same modules were used, just with another door opened than in a different module. I didn't mind the re-used modules in DA2 as much as the wave combat. Also, people seemed to dislike a lot of different things in DA2 than they do in ME3.

Most (about 65-75% it seems) have been disappointed by the endings, they thought they had done something wrong or played the game wrongly. And when even the CoD players think this, Biioware have real problems, since it is the CoD players - and the shooting fans - that will make it so that Bioware games make a profit and will give EA/Bioware a return of their investments quicker than the return of their investment else would be. To me, it is very rarely that gamers and fans agree on anything - on this subject, however, on the endings most gamers and fans, as said above, were both bewildered and confused. And as such the whole discussion began.

To me, however, the statements made by Ray M. and Casey H. didn't help calm the waters. People have experienced this enough times now, so they can see through the statements that don't ring true or look behind the lines and find out what's really being said. The thing that has helped restore a sort of peace and helped calm the waters have mainly been two things that has happened over the Ester weekend:
Allan Schumacher's posts on his take on ME3, and the un-official fan interview done with Patrick Weekes at PAX East during the Easter weekend as well.

There's jiddisch word that goes into the statement that you 'need to be a mensch'. This means something like that people need to trust other people and to talk other people like they're not trying to trick or cheat them or something like that. To me, just talking like real people to the fans can go a long way - just to sit down with the fans and talk to us is sometimes - and definetely in this time - the best pr, a game company, e.g. Bioware, can get.

Just to be clear:
I generally like all statements made by Bioware devs. And I strongly approve of Woo's post last year when he helped calm the waters saying something like (if you read between the lines) that the game DA2 was rushed.

[KingDan97]

Indubitably.

[CELL55]

Stanley Woo wrote...

People got angry when NWN came out and it wasn't BG.
People got angry when KotOR came out because it was a console game.
People got angry when Jade Empire came out because it was a different setting, and it was an action RPG.
People got angry when Mass Effect came out because it was a shooter.
People got angry when Dragon Age: Origins came out because it wasn't BG.
People got angry when DA2 came out because it wasn't DAO.
People got angry when ME2 came out because it wasn't ME1.
And now people are angry at ME3.

The cycle will continue as long as people feel they have an inalienable right to never be disappointed, or that their money entitles them to be rude or condescending to others, or that their opinions are the only, best, or right ones.

THE CYCLE HAS HAPPENED MORE TIME THAN YOU CAN FATHOM 

Lol, but I think it's not just that MORE fans are complaining about the game (which of course can be explained by an increase in gamers and purchases over past games), but that the percentage of fans that are complaining is higher, which is of course the real point. When somewhere around 90% of fans come to the official site and vote that they didn't like the ending, I think it's oversimplifying things to say "And now people are angry at ME3". 

[kbct]

Stanley Woo wrote...

camirish1 wrote...

I think you should account for volume when making a claim like this. 
True, people will always moan about something, but I think in the case of ME3, the volume of angry fans about one particular part is unprecedented.

Of course it's unprecedented. Just as when you're growing, each time you grow an inch, your height is unprecedented. We got a ton more people in our community when ME3 was coming up to release. It was only natural that more people would participate in the forums after they got the game.

It's not unprecedented because the game sold more copies, Mr. Woo.

[Sherbet Lemon]

 Well--

Developers are only human.  They have feelings and take their work personally.  I want to write novels and sell them for a living.  I'm also incredibly attached to my characters, and the things that I create.  I feel a sort of protectiveness about them that I simply can't help.  Criticism is never easy.  It's hard and necessary, for sure, but some of the criticism I've seen on this forum has been mean and hateful.  People calling the developers lazy, saying they have no integrity, saying that they don't care about their legacy, I imagine those words hurt quite a bit.  

Look,  I'll be honest,  I'm not particularly fond of the endings and I think there was some things that were definitely problematic and not as effective as I'm sure the developers intended, but I know the people who worked on this game worked their arses off.  The process was probably pretty stressful and very emotional.  Dedicating yourselve to a single IP for five years shows a lot of heart and a lot of passion.

My point is that while this game and experience is personal to the players, it's also personal to the developers. Accusatory PR policies aside (some justified and some not), talking to the bulk of an angry venemous fanbase would be very difficult, especially if that fanbase is too frustrated to trust you.

[bluewolv1970]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Sorry, Eain, but when you throw around phrases like "I understand that you're just trying to exercise some damage control here" and "That's PR speak," I don't have a hope in hell in having a sincere conversation with you. If you're going to dismiss anything that doesn't absolutely agree with you and what you want to hear as "PR speak," you have effectively shut yourself off from listening to what I have to say.

what irony

[kbct]

Eain wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Sorry, Eain, but when you throw around phrases like "I understand that you're just trying to exercise some damage control here" and "That's PR speak," I don't have a hope in hell in having a sincere conversation with you. If you're going to dismiss anything that doesn't absolutely agree with you and what you want to hear as "PR speak," you have effectively shut yourself off from listening to what I have to say.

Alright, honesty then. Not me as a customer, or even a fan, but a person.

I don't get Bioware's response, at all. And that means the way that almost anyone with a Bioware tag answers to anything. Now there's either two reasons I don't get it:

1) I'm not a very smart person, and I fail to understand a lot about basic communication.
2) There's a decision on the Bioware side to treat certain matters in a certain way.

I'm not new to the internet. I've been an active forumgoer for at least fifteen years, and I've seen multitudes of angry fans come and go at a multitude of different forums. Every company deals with an angry fanbase in the same way; they try to marginalise the situation. Blizzard does it, Epic does, Bioware does it.

When you're trying to put this whole rage over the ending down to the fact that Bioware's following has simply grown, and that there are thus more angry people, you're purposefuly confusing absolute growth with relative growth. I know that the people who work at Bioware aren't silly, and neither are the community managers running this forum. Everyone knows that the outrage over the trilogy's conclusion has nothing to do with simple growth in following. In the words of Mordin in ME2: "please, accounted for all possibilities, not an amateur."

Bioware are not amateurs and you guys know very well why what's happening is happening. Why else are so many devs and writers currently going back on things that Walters and Hudson said about the game before launch? Why else is Bioware giving us an extended cut while also making some changes as to what the endings seem to imply?

So when you're here on the forum marginalising the fan response I'm not gonna put that down on malice on your part, or malice on bioware's part, or stupidity, or anything of the sort. I don't underestimate you. It's just a chosen line, coordinated to some degree between community managers and probably the dev team, a way of trying to present a different point of view while keeping the conversation civil. The problem is, however, that this kind of alternate viewpoint for its own sake can make the company seem impenetrable and hard to reach, as if our most logical reasons for objecting to the way the game ended just aren't registering. Cue more anger from already annoyed fans.

If not, and I am absolutely wrong, I'm very interested in how any of this can be explained away by just fan growth. Because I can't see it, and neither can a lot of other people.

Absolutely no malice or ill will intended by anything said in this post. I understand you're angry (or at least, you seem to be a bit snappy ), and that's fine. Gods know that Bioware's gotten a lot of ****ty treatment lately. I'm a hard guy to upset. The only thing that bothered me is the ending really, haha. If there's anything that bothers you about this response, let me know.

Good post. Organic growth doesn't account for the scale of this backlash.

Modifié par kbct, 11 avril 2012 - 12:33 .

[cabbagered]

Stanley Woo wrote...

The cycle will continue as long as people feel they have an inalienable right to never be disappointed, or that their money entitles them to be rude or condescending to others, or that their opinions are the only, best, or right ones.

You could have viewed them as costumers providing valuable feedback, but whatever floats (or ultimately sinks) your boat.

[Zmidponk]

Stanley Woo wrote...

People got angry when NWN came out and it wasn't BG.
People got angry when KotOR came out because it was a console game.
People got angry when Jade Empire came out because it was a different setting, and it was an action RPG.
People got angry when Mass Effect came out because it was a shooter.
People got angry when Dragon Age: Origins came out because it wasn't BG.
People got angry when DA2 came out because it wasn't DAO.
People got angry when ME2 came out because it wasn't ME1.
And now people are angry at ME3.

The main difference, even if I simply take your word for it that this is accurate, is that previous games received some flak by being compared to other games.  Here, one hell of a lot of flak is directed solely at the ending of the game.  The general consensus seems to be that the ending is sloppy, poorly thought out, full of plot holes and, basically, a very crap ending to an otherwise good game and good series (leaving bugs and things like that aside, for the moment).  And, by the way, I'm saying that based purely on what's being written about the ending here on the forums and elsewhere, as I haven't seen the ending yet, so I don't know from personal experience whether it's good, bad or indifferent.  This would generate some ire on its own, but, by all accounts, the ending also seems to fly directly in the face of certain things that were said in interviews, including some fairly recent interviews, so the fanrage you would be getting anyway has been multiplied by that fact.

The cycle will continue as long as people feel they have an inalienable right to never be disappointed, or that their money entitles them to be rude or condescending to others

There is a difference between being rude or condescending and letting a company know that the product that they've made and you've bought has got a problem.  Many of the people complaining are doing the latter, so, quite frankly, blowing all of them off as being 'rude or condescending' because SOME are, is rude and condescending itself.

or that their opinions are the only, best, or right ones.

If one person gives you a particular opinion, it's entirely possible he's just being an ****.  If you have complaint after complaint after complaint, all highlighting more or less the same problem, if you refuse to listen to that, it's not them who's being the ****.

[Sangheili_1337]

I feel dissapointed that some members of Bioware still doesn't understand why the community is so angry about Mass Effect 3. There is a serious disconnect there.

[TreguardD]

You've had about an hour, Mr. Woo. Would you like to engage us in dialogue? Did you watch the video?

I promise that most of us do not bite.