861 réponses à ce sujet

[4stringwizard]

My apologies beforehand for the long post...

It feels like most people, if forced to choose, decided to wipe out the Quarians rather than the Geth during the Rannoch.  Which is fine and dandy by me cause it's your choice, but it's not as if it's done cause it's paragon/renegade.  The main reason given by most people seems to be:

1.  The Quarians are genocidal maniacs and had it coming.
2.  The Geth are just innocent victims in all this.  

Really?  Although I'm not very surprised since Bioware tried their darnest to paint the Geth as helpless victims in ME3, I still don't understand the amount of bias towards the Geth in this case.  First off,

1.  The Quarians weren't "genocidal maniacs".  They tried to reclaim their home world.  For crying out loud people, wouldn't you have done the same thing?  Beside, not all Quarians supported the war or the first "Morning War."  And they were attacing machines.  I repeat, MACHINES.  Whether the Geth were alive/sentient at the end is moot, but the game makes it clear that the Geth didn't achieve sentience until after they got the Reaper upgrades.  Even if they were alive/sentient, the Quarians wouldn't have known this.  For all they knew at the time, the Geth were just machines still.  Speaking of Reapers...

2.  The Geth weren't "innocent" in all this.  They sided with the Reapers not once, but TWICE over the course of the trilogy.  Yeah, the first ones to side were the "heretics", but even still, they were once true Geth.  if they could turn, why couldn't the true Geth?  At best, this shows the Geth to be untrustworthy.  As far as ME3, even if the Geth were desparate, they sided with the Reapers knowing full well what their intentions were.  Nobody is even bothered by this?  Again, this shows the Geth to be untrustworthy.  What would have stopped them from waging war against organics later to better themselves?

3.  Another pro-Geth argument I've heard is that the Geth were peaceful and let the Quarians live during the first war, when they had to chance to pursue them or wipe them out.  Well, Legion himself says the ONLY reason the Geth didn't wipe out the Quarians was because they weren't smart enough to make that decision at the time.  Even during the game, Legion basically admits to Shepard that the Geth aren't any better than organics.  (This occurs after Shepard finds out that Legion had his something from him.)  The Geth wouldn't have been more useful.  The Quarians had the largest fleet in the galaxy and the Geth were weakened if they had been destroyed rather than re-written.  

So again, I don't understand the sheer amount of bias toward the Geth in this case.  If you ask me, they were no better allies than the Quarians (maybe worse given the circumstances).  Thoughts?  

[4stringwizard]

(bump for great justice)

[Huskeonkel]

I was never a proponent of the Geth. I would pick the Quarians over the Geth at any time for many reasons, the biggest one being that the Quarians are a fascinating and well-designed species with compelling history.

[The Angry One]

The Geth always had sentience. Are you now arguing that Legion wasn't sentient?
The difference with the upgrade is all Geth no longer need other Geth to be intelligent.

As for the Reapers. The Quarians committed GENOCIDE on them when they destroyed their construct. So many Geth programs were destroyed that they collectively became dumber.
They panicked and sought the Reapers' help out of desperation, and the Reapers promptly betrayed and hacked them.

The reason the Geth never wiped out the Quarians is because they couldn't comprehend the idea of wiping out their creators. They were not killbots, they simply couldn't accept that outcome and let them go.

[RoboticWater]

Wrong right out of the gate with "They tried to reclaim their home world."
The Quarians didn't try to reclaim anything form the geth until they were ejected from rannoch. This war was brought on only after the quarians launched a preemptive strike on completely peaceful robots that only wanted to be "a real boy."

As for point two, you think that religious battles weren't fought between the quarians? It also doesn't help that the reapers can indoctrinate anything. Or in the geth's case reprogram.

As for point three, we would have destroyed the quarians if we were in their situation. As established by ME2-3, the geth were only acting out of self-preservation. Killing the thing that is killing you is a logical and justified response.

Modifié par BlahDog, 09 avril 2012 - 10:16 .

[Mr. C]

It's one of the biggest hypocrisies on the BSN .

"I can't wait to wipe out the Quarians, that'll show em!" - Pro_Geth opinion pre-ME3
"I won't pick the Destroy option because I don't want to commit genocide to defeat the Reapers!" - Pro_Geth opinion now

Double-standard there, friends?

Modifié par Mr. C, 09 avril 2012 - 10:25 .

[fr33stylez]

While I found the Quarians (except Tali and a few others) very annoying, justifying the Geth turning to the Reapers out of 'desperation' is ridiculous.

How many people would be fine if the Krogan turned to the Reapers for help to fight the Salarians? Hell, isn't this what Wrex essentially proposed on Vimire in ME1?

Legion of all people knew the Reapers capabilities. How could he possibly agree? It's like Shepard agreeing with Saren/Synthesis.

As the OP said, the Geth already converted to the Heretics before. And in ME3, they showed that if backed in a corner, they would sign with the most evil entity in the universe. Not really trustworthy to me.

Modifié par fr33stylez, 09 avril 2012 - 10:36 .

[Hogge87]

You're wrong in numerous places.
The Quarians started the destruction of the Geth after a few started asking "what is my purpose" and "am I alive". Typical evidence that they are aware. And to top it all off, isn't the distinction of VI vs AI that VI's only are able to do tasks they were designed for, while AI are capable of doing whatever they want? Hence AWARE?

That the Geth are "just machines" is a philosophical question which the developers may or may not have wanted to raise awareness of. I'm quite certain that we during our lifetime will have to make a definitive decision in this regard.

The Geth defended themselves so effectively that they chased the Quarians off their own homeworld. The Quarians have then, rather than attempting diplomatic solutions, time and again attempted to take back Rannoch with military force.

The situation could be compared to the story of Spartacus, only with the change that Spartacus' slave army not only survived, but chased the Romans out of Rome.

[Mr. C]

@fr33- Precisely why I let Gerral wipe them out. I grew tired of their fickle loyalties. "It was the Heretics that sided with the Reapers, we're innocent!" - Legion, ME2

"LOL jk" - Majority Geth, ME3

Modifié par Mr. C, 09 avril 2012 - 10:42 .

[The Night Mammoth]

Mr. C wrote...

It's one of the biggest hypocrisies on the BSN .

"I can't wait to wipe out the Quarians, that'll show em!" - Pro_Geth opinion pre-ME3
"I won't pick the Destroy option because I don't want to commit genocide to defeat the Reapers!" - Pro_Geth opinion now

Double-standard there, friends?

I've never seen that opinion expressed. 

[I am KROGAN]

Hogge87 wrote...


The Geth defended themselves so effectively that they chased the Quarians off their own homeworld. The Quarians have then, rather than attempting diplomatic solutions, time and again attempted to take back Rannoch with military force.

This, this, THIS.

Maybe if the Quarian Admirals had.. lets say... attempted Diplomacy with the Geth, instead of just taking the stance "**** those guys, they took our planet, even though we attacked first and they reacted in self-defence" they could have lived together, maybe not in perfect harmony but, at the very least tolerant of one another.

I'd have a little more sympathy for the Quarians if their first reaction upon realizing the Geth were developing sentience wasn't "Screw that, we need robot slaves, lets [try to] kill them all."

[Nobrandminda]

 First of all, I doubt that "most people" chose the geth over the quarians on Rannoch, but I think people just legitimately like Legion and the geth.

I think the other reason why you see a lot of geth support on the forums is because of the Catalyst's "created will always rebel against the created" bit.  There is nothing like telling someone they can't have something to make them want it more, and the catalyst says in no uncertain terms that we can't have Geth allies.  Even if you were neutral towards geth before that line, odds are your first reaction was "Bull**** I can't."

[AngryFrozenWater]

The Angry One wrote...

The Geth always had sentience. Are you now arguing that Legion wasn't sentient?
The difference with the upgrade is all Geth no longer need other Geth to be intelligent.

As for the Reapers. The Quarians committed GENOCIDE on them when they destroyed their construct. So many Geth programs were destroyed that they collectively became dumber.
They panicked and sought the Reapers' help out of desperation, and the Reapers promptly betrayed and hacked them.

The reason the Geth never wiped out the Quarians is because they couldn't comprehend the idea of wiping out their creators. They were not killbots, they simply couldn't accept that outcome and let them go.

Yes. The geth became self-aware and capable of creative and independent thought. As Tali explained in ME1 geth become more intelligent and their thinking will be more optimal when operating in groups. As Legion explains the difference between the geth's way of thinking and that of organics is perspective: The geth do not think as individuals, but they think as a group.

About 3 centuries ago some geth gained that concious. However, there were treaties in which it was forbidden to create AI. The quarians violated those. Instead of dreaming up a rational solution they panicked in fear of losing support from the Council. The quarians ordered that all geth to be shut down. As a response the geth were trying to contact the quarians in an attempt to find a peaceful solution. The geth never got a response, other than violence. The geth had no other option open than defending themselves from their creators. It was not the geth that rose against their creators, it was the quarians that tried to exterminate them all. This was known as the Morning War.

When its was clear that geth won the war, the geth let the quarians escape when the quarians fled from Rannoch and the geth retreated for 3 centuries. They went silent and did not try to attack any organics. Was this the geth's way to show mercy? Legion later said that they had insufficient data to determine whether to exterminate the quarians or not.

The geth were contacted by Sovereign (who called himself Nazara). However, most of the geth did not partake in the collaboration. The ones that did were known as heretics. Those heretics are the violent ones we usually encountered in ME1 and later on.

In ME3 the quarians once again started a war against the geth. This time they wanted to claim their homeworld. Tali knew that the geth were willing to negotiate a peaceful solution. Legion told her so back in ME2. But no. Again, genocide was the quarian's solution. Because the thinking is linked to operating as a group, decimating the geth caused their intelligence to drop below acceptable levels. As a solution to that the geth had reaper technology that allowed the remaining geth to think as individuals. But to use that their software needed to be "updated". That was what Legions request to upload the data was about.

So, no. I don't think striking back to two genocide attempts can be considered evil. The geth just defended themselves.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 09 avril 2012 - 10:59 .

[Hogge87]

fr33stylez wrote...

While I found the Quarians (except Tali and a few others) very annoying, justifying the Geth turning to the Reapers out of 'desperation' is ridiculous.

How many people would be fine if the Krogan turned to the Reapers for help to fight the Salarians? Hell, isn't this what Wrex essentially proposed on Vimire in ME1?

During WWII, Finland was allied with Germany. Not because they sympathised with the Germans, but because they were all alone when the Soviet Union attacked (apart from Sweden which secretly sent 10 000 volounteers and a few really old planes). Do you think that what they did was wrong?

[BatmanPWNS]

Actually, in your squad, everyone is more happy if you kill the Geth.

[Mr. C]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Mr. C wrote...

It's one of the biggest hypocrisies on the BSN .

"I can't wait to wipe out the Quarians, that'll show em!" - Pro_Geth opinion pre-ME3
"I won't pick the Destroy option because I don't want to commit genocide to defeat the Reapers!" - Pro_Geth opinion now

Double-standard there, friends?

I've never seen that opinion expressed. 

It mostly crops up in those 'Which color is best? " threads.

[goose2989]

Mr. C wrote...

It's one of the biggest hypocrisies on the BSN .

"I can't wait to wipe out the Quarians, that'll show em!" - Pro_Geth opinion pre-ME3
"I won't pick the Destroy option because I don't want to commit genocide to defeat the Reapers!" - Pro_Geth opinion now

Double-standard there, friends?

Also, stating that the Geth chose to side with the Reapers in self-defense goes against a little thing that our favorite Commander stated....


"I won't let fear compromise who I am"

[Saul Iscariot]

The Geth randomly attacked any vessels that entered their system.
The Geth Collective endorsed the actions of the Heretics by not being able to come to the conclusion to destroy them.
The Geth supposedly were prepared to sacrifice themselves to save Quarians yet they had no problem going to war to defend themselves.
They are the worst pacifist group since the Viet Kong.

[ZombieChad]

I though both sides were bastards tbh. I chose to save the Quarian's though as indoctrination takes longer than hacking.

[The Night Mammoth]

fr33stylez wrote...

While I found the Quarians (except Tali and a few others) very annoying, justifying the Geth turning to the Reapers out of 'desperation' is ridiculous.

How many people would be fine if the Krogan turned to the Reapers for help to fight the Salarians? Hell, isn't this what Wrex essentially proposed on Vimire in ME1?

I wouldn't be fine, but I could see their reasons, as I saw and understood why the Geth did what they did. 

Is it justified? In part, it was out of self preservation. 

Remeber though, that the reason you attack the Dreadnought and then the base on Rannoch is to free the Geth, and Legion helps you. 

Legion of all people knew the Reapers capabilities. How could he possibly agree? It's like Shepard agreeing with Saren/Synthesis.

He thought survival for a time was better than immediate death. 

Actually, I'm not even sure Legion agreed. 

As the OP said, the Geth already converted to the Heretics before. And in ME3, they showed that if backed in a corner, they would sign with the most evil entity in the universe. Not really trustworthy to me.

A very small number of Geth helped the Reapers. The majority took no part. When posed with the possibility of extinction, they chose survival whatever the cost. 

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 09 avril 2012 - 10:56 .

[Mr. C]

goose2989 wrote...

Mr. C wrote...

It's one of the biggest hypocrisies on the BSN .

"I can't wait to wipe out the Quarians, that'll show em!" - Pro_Geth opinion pre-ME3
"I won't pick the Destroy option because I don't want to commit genocide to defeat the Reapers!" - Pro_Geth opinion now

Double-standard there, friends?

Also, stating that the Geth chose to side with the Reapers in self-defense goes against a little thing that our favorite Commander stated....


"I won't let fear compromise who I am"

Also true.

[4stringwizard]

BlahDog wrote...

Wrong right out of the gate with "They tried to reclaim their home world."
The Quarians didn't try to reclaim anything form the geth until they were ejected from rannoch. This war was brought on only after the quarians launched a preemptive strike on completely peaceful robots that only wanted to be "a real boy."

As for point two, you think that religious battles weren't fought between the quarians? It also doesn't help that the reapers can indoctrinate anything. Or in the geth's case reprogram.

As for point three, we would have destroyed the quarians if we were in their situation. As established by ME2-3, the geth were only acting out of self-preservation. Killing the thing that is killing you is a logical and justified response.

Yes.  The Quarians tried to reclaim Rannoch in ME3.  That's what I meant.  

As far as the last point, it doesn't excuse allying with the Reapers out of desperation.  The Geth knew what the Reapers want.  They didn't have to ally with the Reapers.  But they did it anyway, knowing the Reapers were out to exterminate all major organic races.  This would have affected other races besides just the Quarians.  The ends DO NOT justify the means in this case.  

I'm not saying the Quarians were innocent.  But neither were the Geth.  If anything, both sides made their share of mistakes.  As far as diplomacy goes, Legion claimed they were open to it, but the Geth NEVER actually attempted diplomacy with the Quarians.  So it's not surprising the Quarians didn't try it eitehr.  

[GuardianAngel470]

Mr. C wrote...

It's one of the biggest hypocrisies on the BSN .

"I can't wait to wipe out the Quarians, that'll show em!" - Pro_Geth opinion pre-ME3
"I won't pick the Destroy option because I don't want to commit genocide to defeat the Reapers!" - Pro_Geth opinion now

Double-standard there, friends?

Or a second option:

"If I have to choose, I choose the Geth because of X, Y, and Z."

Or a THIRD option:

"Shut your stupid mouth Han'Gerrel and stand down!"

Or a fourth option:

"Eh, legion's cooler than Tali, I pick him. What's that falling out of the sky all of a sudden?"

[Brosome]

Genocide is wrong. It is an atrocity. I will always choose peace, no matter what. I won't even import any saves where I know i ****ed things up.

But, if I was ever forced to choose only one side, it would be the quarians.

I will never choose robots over innocent children.

A lot of people like to simply forget that children exist in the ME universe, even after Bioware made it clear otherwise in the very first level.

[4stringwizard]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

A very small number of Geth helped the Reapers. The majority took no part. When posed with the possibility of extinction, they chose survival whatever the cost. 

I'm not sure that's true.  I think ALL the Geth except Legion did.  Could be wrong though.  

Even still, self-preservation at the cost of ALL major organic races (save a few) does not justify siding with the Reapers in this case.