861 réponses à ce sujet

[Olueq]

Ekyri wrote...

Olueq wrote...


If the civilian fleet dosnt help then the heavy fleet is destroyed and the then the civilian fleet defenceless and then is also destroyed. This is stated in game. SO the civilian fleet didnt have a choice. By your logic, either they died fighting, or they died running.

Why would the heavy fleet attack if the civilian fleet refuses to join the attack, leading to them being severely outnumbered and having zero chances at winning? Out of spite?

Because gerrel knew that if he went, the civilian fleet would have no choice. BTW, this isnt an opinion. This is a fact. Listen to the dialogue on the dreadnaught sometime.

Modifié par Olueq, 10 avril 2012 - 12:14 .

[wantedman dan]

4stringwizard wrote...

DERP I MADE A FUNNEH

The "obvious and glaring defiecies" that you're making up in your head.  Yes, I know.   But the point is, you defend the Geth - who made many atrocious mistakes - but not defending the Quarians.  With faulty logic. 

No, the qualifiable deficiencies such as relying on CIVILIAN fleets for support in a WAR. You've yet to extrapolate as to how my logic is faulty; thus far, you've only given me rhetorical fodder.

[Ponei]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

Geth. Quarians are too much of a liability ( starting a war - which they cannot even win - with the geth weeks after the Reapers launch a full scale invasion, and it only gets worse from there)

Mabye the quarians did not calculate the repercussion of said war. At this point it's too difficult to choose between them for a number of reasons regarding both side's mistakes and while geth are purely driven by logic, quarians have the emotional side of it. Peace is the best option, happy ending.

[G Kevin]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

G Kevin wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

This boils down to a disturbing question in the end.

Do you judge a group on the merit of their actions or the function of their form?

Whether the OP and the rest of you know this or not, this argument has been going around for years on this forum. Geth or Quarian, Quarian or Geth. Who's right and who's wrong?

Every time, it boils down to a difference of opinion on the above question. Why would I pick a synthetic over an organic? The geth aren't sentient. The geth aren't deserving of protection. If your toaster/computer/phone/electrical-mechanical device gained sentience, you'd freak out.

All of these are old arguments.

Ultimately, the only thing that matters is where you stand on that question.

Answer honestly, if you were part of a single blind experiment in which the actions of two species were presented to you without context on the nature of those species, who would you side with? Species A, the geth, or Species B, the quarians? If all you knew about them was their actions toward each other, who would you side with?

Species A: Became aware, attacked in self defense, won their war, killed anyone who tried coming back, did not care for the rest of the galaxy.

Species B: Attacked their creation, some tried to protect them but military leaders disagreed, lost war, condemed by rest of galaxy, questioned their decisions.

Really hard to say based on actions because you would need to know which actions are considered. 

So far I tried to keep it unbiased but I can't tell. I pick Species B because they reflected on their decision even after they were condemned.

If you're going to include this:

"some tried to protect them but military leaders disagreed"

You have to mention that members of Species A tried to surrender to protect members of Species B. There was a give and take on both sides in this regard so if you include one you have to include the other. Otherwise it isn't objective. Other than that your wording for Species B is overly sympathetic. For instance:

"condemed by rest of galaxy"

The above does not fit the premise. We are looking solely at a races actions, not how it is treated by others. If we were, we'd mention that Species A is universally hated and feared for acting in self defense, which would color any participant's assessment of said species.

Like I said, its hard to choose. Logically both sides had their rights and wrongs. With just actions, there is not enough information to make a decision.

[Crashjr32123]

I just saved all of them, and legion ended up dying...


More resources that way, I didn't see what was fair or not, I needed more resources to end the war. In war you don't go around thinking about who deserves what you go around thnking about what you need. So naturally....yeah.

Modifié par Crashjr32123, 10 avril 2012 - 12:18 .

[Elite Midget]

fr33stylez wrote...

Elite Midget wrote...

4stringwizard wrote...

Elite Midget wrote...

Heretics served the Reapers, a minority. The rest stayed on their planet and fought the Reaper control. In ME3 they were forced to serve the Reapers due to Quarians threatening Genocide. The Quarians were at fault YET AGAIN.

They weren't forced.  THEY CHOSE.  They had other options.  They just didn't use them. 

/Logic

No, they were forced. The Quarians were threatening to wipe them out and Legion was captured and forced to feed information to push the Geth to join the Reapers. Had the Geth not obeyed the Quarians would have wiped them out.

They were not forced. They had a choice. If you believe turning to the Reapers when you're in a diffcult position is the right thing to do, then you're against everything Shepard stood for.

It's like saying I'm forced to set off a bomb in my school in order to escape a bunch of bullies.

You're not understanding anything. Let me try and speak in a manner that you will understand.

The Geth either joined the Reapers or get wiped out by the Reapers on one front and the Quarians on another. Than the Reapers wipe out the Quarians. They didn't want to die and didn't want to kill their creators. When they do kill their creators it was in self-defense yet again. The Quarians are just repeating their same dark history all over again.

[4stringwizard]

wantedman dan wrote...

4stringwizard wrote...

DERP I MADE A FUNNEH

The "obvious and glaring defiecies" that you're making up in your head.  Yes, I know.   But the point is, you defend the Geth - who made many atrocious mistakes - but not defending the Quarians.  With faulty logic. 

No, the qualifiable deficiencies such as relying on CIVILIAN fleets for support in a WAR. You've yet to extrapolate as to how my logic is faulty; thus far, you've only given me rhetorical fodder.

Ah yes, post editing.  The favorite tactic of lesser minds.  

Oh yes, that was a defiency, and it was terrible.  Nor would I have done it myself.  But the Quarians had the upper hand and would have won.  They didn't only because the Geth WILLINGLY sided with the Reapers.  

[Mr. C]

Olueq wrote...

Because gerrel knew that if he went, the civilian fleet would have no choice. BTW, this isnt an opinion. This is a fact. Listen to the dialogue on the dreadnaught sometime.

Agreed. I was impressed by Koris this time (and his sacrifice). Gerral was a mad dog.

[Chaoswind]

A few points.

Some said Geth where open to diplomacy but never attempted to do it themselves.

That statement is wrong, the Geth tried many times to negociate with the Quarians and all attempts ended with the Quarians attacking them anyway, if you are at war and offer peace 100 times and 100 times you are refused and attacked then why bother?

The Geth tried for peace is the past and the Quarians never gave them the indication that peace was possible, so the ball was on the Quarian side of the court.

I would never allow neither the Geth nor the Quarians to kill eachother, not if I can help it.

Also another thing some people got wrong is the timeline.

1895 is the start of the MW
1896 is the fall of Haestrom
1905 is the end of the war.
1905-1919 was the timeline in with Nazara made contact with the Geth (yes he made contact with them shortly after the morning war)
1920 the true Geth began to construct the super structure that would hold all of them (using the concept of the Reaper nation nazara spoke).

The Geth began to attack anyone that got close to the veil some decades after the War and the game points out that the only Geth around the veil where the heretics.

Another thing is that legion is sorry because the Geth ran to the reapers when they where about to lose the war, and he says they did it because they where stupid because most of them where destroyed and didn't know bether.

The organic equivalent of this would be to get Drugged/hyper drunk and wake up in a cheap hospital bed with one less liver.

Modifié par Chaoswind, 10 avril 2012 - 12:23 .

[wantedman dan]

Olueq wrote...

Whats you point? That was still  A LOT of geth that sided with them...  And no, they sided twice. The whole reason the quarians didnt just win was because they sided with the reapers. Lets also not forget the reaper virus and overlord. The geth have proven so many times that they are a liability. and wait, you say we shouldnt blame them for what a portion of them did? Sounds familiar, no?

lolno, again

The Geth did not side with the Reapers twice. The Heretics did. Your point is as inherently steretypical as the "Americans guilty for Iraq" example you gave pages ago.

I've advocated all along that no race or species or population should be held guilty for the sins of a few. The difference here being that EVERYONE was involved, whether male, female, children; everyone was involved in this conflict. I'm not denying the Geth made a mistake by allying with the Reapers.

However, making mistakes--and learning from them as the Geth did--is what makes a being truly... alive.

Your example fails.

Again.

[G Kevin]

Aramina wrote...

G Kevin wrote...

Aramina wrote...

4stringwizard wrote...

Elite Midget wrote...

4stringwizard wrote...

I forgot to add one more point: the Geth DO end up committing genocide if you side with them over the Quarians. So it seems the Geth are just as capable of the Quarians of committing atrocities.

Again, at best, both sides are equally peaceful/barbaric.

I suppose I should also give my stance too: if forced to choose, I definitely would have chosen the Quarians.

It was self-defence and the Geth were in the moment of being upgraded and breaking free from Reaper control. THey had no control on their actions, they acted  out of instict to perserve themselves. This is made adamantly clear in the Peace option where the Geth ignore the Quarian fleet when the Quarians pull back.

The Quarians on the other hand attack if you pick one or the other. The Geth aren't at fault even when their hand was forced because when the Quarians pull back no race is wiped out.

And the Geth respond by wiping out the Quarians if Shepard sides with the Geth....

Surprised if you haven't found the flaw in your own logic yet.  Oh, and it IS the Geth's fault.  They sided with the Reapers.  They could have tried to be diplomatic with the Quarians and said they wanted peace.  They could have tried to communicate before making the decisions.  Heck, they could have even fought the Reapers.  But they didn't.  They took the easy way out, in a sense. 

If you bring Legion with you in Tali's ME2 loyalty mission, he flat out says the Geth are willing to make peace....and most of the Quarians don't believe him. If someone is trying to wipe out your enite species, how many times are you supposed to sue for peace before it's "morally acceptible" to fight back?

Trying to say Geth are peaceful when they were killing Quarians on another ship is hardly convincing.

Geth that were being experimented on to find their weaknesses so more Geth could be wiped out. As far as I know, most people think defending yourself from experimentation and death isn't a crime. And Legion still helps you take the ship back if you bring him.

 We experiment on ourselves to find out weaknesses and strength. The Geth were not being tortured when they were experimented on. They woke up and started killing every non-synthetic being in their vicinity.

Why didn't Legion just tell the Geth to stop attacking? Why did the Geth attack Legion?

[fr33stylez]

Elite Midget wrote...

fr33stylez wrote...

Elite Midget wrote...

4stringwizard wrote...

Elite Midget wrote...

Heretics served the Reapers, a minority. The rest stayed on their planet and fought the Reaper control. In ME3 they were forced to serve the Reapers due to Quarians threatening Genocide. The Quarians were at fault YET AGAIN.

They weren't forced.  THEY CHOSE.  They had other options.  They just didn't use them. 

/Logic

No, they were forced. The Quarians were threatening to wipe them out and Legion was captured and forced to feed information to push the Geth to join the Reapers. Had the Geth not obeyed the Quarians would have wiped them out.

They were not forced. They had a choice. If you believe turning to the Reapers when you're in a diffcult position is the right thing to do, then you're against everything Shepard stood for.

It's like saying I'm forced to set off a bomb in my school in order to escape a bunch of bullies.

You're not understanding anything. Let me try and speak in a manner that you will understand.

The Geth either joined the Reapers or get wiped out by the Reapers on one front and the Quarians on another. Than the Reapers wipe out the Quarians. They didn't want to die and didn't want to kill their creators. When they do kill their creators it was in self-defense yet again. The Quarians are just repeating their same dark history all over again.

Let me rephrase my analogy for you:

If you were being chased by bullies looking to kill you, and the only solution presented to you was to detonate a bomb which would kill the bullies ALONG with 50 innocent people, would you do it? Does the end justify the means?

Because it is obvious the consequence of siding with the Reapers is to indeed do the Reaper's bidding (continue of the cycle by harvesting/extinction). The Reapers goals are clear to the GEth at this point in ME3.

[Peer of the Empire]

Personally I don't like the quarian emotionality, thieving and vagrancy

[wantedman dan]

4stringwizard wrote...

Ah yes, post editing.  The favorite tactic of lesser minds.  

Oh yes, that was a defiency, and it was terrible.  Nor would I have done it myself.  But the Quarians had the upper hand and would have won.  They didn't only because the Geth WILLINGLY sided with the Reapers.  

I thought it was a cute little quip giving accurate description to your obvious ploy at humor at my expense. You'll notice I changed nothing of your prior statement, working only in addition. But I suppose ignorance is bliss, no?

Thanks for ceding the argument.

[Olueq]

wantedman dan wrote...

Olueq wrote...

Whats you point? That was still  A LOT of geth that sided with them...  And no, they sided twice. The whole reason the quarians didnt just win was because they sided with the reapers. Lets also not forget the reaper virus and overlord. The geth have proven so many times that they are a liability. and wait, you say we shouldnt blame them for what a portion of them did? Sounds familiar, no?

lolno, again

The Geth did not side with the Reapers twice. The Heretics did. Your point is as inherently steretypical as the "Americans guilty for Iraq" example you gave pages ago.

I've advocated all along that no race or species or population should be held guilty for the sins of a few. The difference here being that EVERYONE was involved, whether male, female, children; everyone was involved in this conflict. I'm not denying the Geth made a mistake by allying with the Reapers.

However, making mistakes--and learning from them as the Geth did--is what makes a being truly... alive.

Your example fails.

Again.

The heretics ARE geth, they just have different views.. again, like the quarians. And I will say this one last time because you refuse to comprehend what Im saying. The quarians were FORCED to fight because they rely on eachother. You are still blaming all of them for the actions of a few (one actually, as gerrel was the only reason they stayed). The geth are NO different. Some of them joined the reapers (oh btw, ALL of them joined the second time, not just some).

[Pathero]

Look we all know what is going to happen if we get peace with the Quarians and the Geth:

SCENE: A Prime is playing with some toy dinosaurs; A Tyrannosaurus Geth and a Taliceratops.
Prime: "I curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal."

Modifié par Pathero, 10 avril 2012 - 12:21 .

[4stringwizard]

Elite Midget wrote...

fr33stylez wrote...

Elite Midget wrote...

4stringwizard wrote...

Elite Midget wrote...

Heretics served the Reapers, a minority. The rest stayed on their planet and fought the Reaper control. In ME3 they were forced to serve the Reapers due to Quarians threatening Genocide. The Quarians were at fault YET AGAIN.

They weren't forced.  THEY CHOSE.  They had other options.  They just didn't use them. 

/Logic

No, they were forced. The Quarians were threatening to wipe them out and Legion was captured and forced to feed information to push the Geth to join the Reapers. Had the Geth not obeyed the Quarians would have wiped them out.

They were not forced. They had a choice. If you believe turning to the Reapers when you're in a diffcult position is the right thing to do, then you're against everything Shepard stood for.

It's like saying I'm forced to set off a bomb in my school in order to escape a bunch of bullies.

You're not understanding anything. Let me try and speak in a manner that you will understand.

The Geth either joined the Reapers or get wiped out by the Reapers on one front and the Quarians on another. Than the Reapers wipe out the Quarians. They didn't want to die and didn't want to kill their creators. When they do kill their creators it was in self-defense yet again. The Quarians are just repeating their same dark history all over again.

They didn't have to side with the Reapers.  They could have fought them.  Heck, they could have even fled when the Quarians came.  But no, they chose to side with an evil entity.  Even if they couldn't have fled, it doesn't justify their actions. 

An analogy: say Russia was attacking the U.S (or whatever country you may belong to) and bent on destroying it.  Then out of the blue, an alien race descends on earth - and they're bent on wiping out humans everywhere.  However, they offer your country weapon technology that gives you a chance to fight off Russia IF you side with them.  Would you have sided with the aliens, knowing what their goal was?  

If your answer was yes, then I question your sense as a human. 

Modifié par 4stringwizard, 10 avril 2012 - 12:21 .

[Esker02]

Ponei wrote...

AlexMBrennan wrote...

Geth. Quarians are too much of a liability ( starting a war - which they cannot even win - with the geth weeks after the Reapers launch a full scale invasion, and it only gets worse from there)

Mabye the quarians did not calculate the repercussion of said war. At this point it's too difficult to choose between them for a number of reasons regarding both side's mistakes and while geth are purely driven by logic, quarians have the emotional side of it. Peace is the best option, happy ending.

Actually, the quarians whooped the geth pretty good. According to foreseeable calculations, the war would have gone as smoothly as it had been going, and as smoothly as it goes after you shut down the reaper transmission. The only thing they did not plan on is the geth turning to the galaxy's evil incarnate for 'upgrades.' People keep calling the quarians aggressors, but they were forced off their planet, due to atrocities on a global scale, after merely trying to shut down what they perceived as their property. Whenever they tried to return, they were killed on sight.

I can't exactly fault their perception that they needed to strike first and hard. I can fault the geth from going to the reapers straight away rather than attempting to surrender. Funny how their survival instinct didn't include that option (it didn't include offering surrender either, in the Morning War).

[Elite Midget]

Sparatus wrote...

I can never side with the geth because it would mean killing off children and non-combatants because Han'Gerral and Xen are idiots.

Though I will probably just go with peace if I ever replay the game. I didn't really like having to kill Legion either, despite how he was written in 3 rubbing me the wrong way. He is still my robobuddy.

The Geth are sentient. Just vecause they're not made of flesh and blood doesn't change that they are still a people. Leghion even becomes I and no longer We if you side with him. The Geth are evolving, just like organics, and gaining their own sense of self. If anything the Geth are the child race and the Quarians are the drunk and druggy abusive parents that wont pay child support.

[Olueq]

Chaoswind wrote...

A few points.

Some said Geth where open to diplomacy but never attempted to do it themselves.

That statement is wrong, the Geth tried many times to negociate with the Quarians and all attempts ended with the Quarians attacking them anyway, if you are at war and offer peace 100 times and 100 times you are refused and attacked then why bother?

The Geth tried for peace is the past and the Quarians never gave them the indication that peace was impossible, so the ball was on the Quarian side of the court.

I would never allow neither the Geth nor the Quarians to kill eachother, not if I can help it.

Also another thing some people got wrong is the timeline.

1895 is the start of the MW
1896 is the fall of Haestrom
1905 is the end of the war.
1905-1919 was the timeline in with Nazara made contact with the Geth (yes he made contact with them shortly after the morning war)
1920 the true Geth began to construct the super structure that would hold all of them (using the concept of the Reaper nation nazara spoke).

The Geth began to attack anyone that got close to the veil some decades after the War and the game points out that the only Geth around the veil where the heretics.

Another thing is that legion is sorry because the Geth ran to the reapers when they where about to lose the war, and he says they did it because they where stupid because most of them where destroyed and didn't know bether.

The organic equivalent of this would be to get Drugged/hyper drunk and wake up in a cheap hospital bed with one less liver.

Please enlighten me. When was this? Oh right, never. They NEVER tried after the morning war. They could have easily have sent messages but didnt even do that.

Modifié par Olueq, 10 avril 2012 - 12:23 .

[4stringwizard]

wantedman dan wrote...

4stringwizard wrote...

Ah yes, post editing.  The favorite tactic of lesser minds.  

Oh yes, that was a defiency, and it was terrible.  Nor would I have done it myself.  But the Quarians had the upper hand and would have won.  They didn't only because the Geth WILLINGLY sided with the Reapers.  

I thought it was a cute little quip giving accurate description to your obvious ploy at humor at my expense. You'll notice I changed nothing of your prior statement, working only in addition. But I suppose ignorance is bliss, no?

Thanks for ceding the argument.

I didn't cede it, but it looks like you are.  But that's fine if you can't actually come up with an argument on your own.  

[G Kevin]

Chaoswind wrote...

A few points.

Some said Geth where open to diplomacy but never attempted to do it themselves.

That statement is wrong, the Geth tried many times to negociate with the Quarians and all attempts ended with the Quarians attacking them anyway, if you are at war and offer peace 100 times and 100 times you are refused and attacked then why bother?

The Geth tried for peace is the past and the Quarians never gave them the indication that peace was impossible, so the ball was on the Quarian side of the court.

I would never allow neither the Geth nor the Quarians to kill eachother, not if I can help it.

Also another thing some people got wrong is the timeline.

1895 is the start of the MW
1896 is the fall of Haestrom
1905 is the end of the war.
1905-1919 was the timeline in with Nazara made contact with the Geth (yes he made contact with them shortly after the morning war)
1920 the true Geth began to construct the super structure that would hold all of them (using the concept of the Reaper nation nazara spoke).

The Geth began to attack anyone that got close to the veil some decades after the War and the game points out that the only Geth around the veil where the heretics.

Another thing is that legion is sorry because the Geth ran to the reapers when they where about to lose the war, and he says they did it because they where stupid because most of them where destroyed and didn't know bether.

The organic equivalent of this would be to get Drugged/hyper drunk and wake up in a cheap hospital bed with one less liver.

So the rest of the Geth decided not to tell everyone that the heretics were the ones killing them all? What about the Geth on Tali's loyalty mission? Why did they not try to be peacefull, they flat out attacked once they became sentient.

[Elite Midget]

4stringwizard wrote...

Elite Midget wrote...

fr33stylez wrote...

Elite Midget wrote...

4stringwizard wrote...

Elite Midget wrote...

Heretics served the Reapers, a minority. The rest stayed on their planet and fought the Reaper control. In ME3 they were forced to serve the Reapers due to Quarians threatening Genocide. The Quarians were at fault YET AGAIN.

They weren't forced.  THEY CHOSE.  They had other options.  They just didn't use them. 

/Logic

No, they were forced. The Quarians were threatening to wipe them out and Legion was captured and forced to feed information to push the Geth to join the Reapers. Had the Geth not obeyed the Quarians would have wiped them out.

They were not forced. They had a choice. If you believe turning to the Reapers when you're in a diffcult position is the right thing to do, then you're against everything Shepard stood for.

It's like saying I'm forced to set off a bomb in my school in order to escape a bunch of bullies.

You're not understanding anything. Let me try and speak in a manner that you will understand.

The Geth either joined the Reapers or get wiped out by the Reapers on one front and the Quarians on another. Than the Reapers wipe out the Quarians. They didn't want to die and didn't want to kill their creators. When they do kill their creators it was in self-defense yet again. The Quarians are just repeating their same dark history all over again.

They didn't have to side with the Reapers.  They could have fought them.  Heck, they could have even fled when the Quarians came.  But no, they chose to side with an evil entity.  Even if they couldn't have fled, it doesn't justify their actions. 

An analogy: say Russia was attacking the U.S (or whatever country you may belong to) and bent on destroying it.  Then out of the blue, an alien race descends on earth - and they're bent on wiping out humans everywhere.  However, they offer your country weapon technology that gives you a chance to fight off Russia IF you side with them.  Would you have sided with the aliens, knowing what their goal was?  

If your answer was yes, then I question your sense as a human. 

Are you slow? Do you not read ANYTHING? Even if the Geth fought the Reapers the Quarians were HELLBENT on destroying the Geth even with a Reaper invasion going on. The Quarians would have attacked the Geth while they fought the Reapers than get wiped out by the Reapers soon after once the Geth are gone. THe Geth had no choice because they feared for their lives. Also, as more Geth die the dumber they get and like some said it was like getting drunk. They couldn't think rational because their brain cells, units, were being mass destroyed forcing them in a corner trying to find a solution for their survival.

[4stringwizard]

I gotta say, their have been some great posts on both sides in this thread! I'm happy how it turned out. I honestly didn't expect there to be this many responses.