861 réponses à ce sujet

[fr33stylez]

fr33stylez wrote...

Elite Midget wrote...

fr33stylez wrote...

Elite Midget wrote...

4stringwizard wrote...

Elite Midget wrote...

Heretics served the Reapers, a minority. The rest stayed on their planet and fought the Reaper control. In ME3 they were forced to serve the Reapers due to Quarians threatening Genocide. The Quarians were at fault YET AGAIN.

They weren't forced.  THEY CHOSE.  They had other options.  They just didn't use them. 

/Logic

No, they were forced. The Quarians were threatening to wipe them out and Legion was captured and forced to feed information to push the Geth to join the Reapers. Had the Geth not obeyed the Quarians would have wiped them out.

They were not forced. They had a choice. If you believe turning to the Reapers when you're in a diffcult position is the right thing to do, then you're against everything Shepard stood for.

It's like saying I'm forced to set off a bomb in my school in order to escape a bunch of bullies.

You're not understanding anything. Let me try and speak in a manner that you will understand.

The Geth either joined the Reapers or get wiped out by the Reapers on one front and the Quarians on another. Than the Reapers wipe out the Quarians. They didn't want to die and didn't want to kill their creators. When they do kill their creators it was in self-defense yet again. The Quarians are just repeating their same dark history all over again.

Let me rephrase my analogy for you:

If you were being chased by bullies looking to kill you, and the only solution presented to you was to detonate a bomb which would kill the bullies ALONG with 50 innocent people, would you do it? Does the end justify the means?

Because it is obvious the consequence of siding with the Reapers is to indeed do the Reaper's bidding (continue of the cycle by harvesting/extinction). The Reapers goals are clear to the GEth at this point in ME3.

Elite Midget I'd honestly like to know your viewpoint on this.

[Ponei]

This thread has no purpose other than **** things up. There's a PEACE option people, you should try it out sometime! HAPPY ENDING FOR EVERYONE

[Chaoswind]

Olueq

They never tried after the morning war because Nazara made contact with them, when they refused the "help" of the reapers they began to develop weapons designed to fight other machines because they knew Nazara using the heretics to attack the true geth was a possibility.

Most of the weapons the Geth developed after the moring war where made to fight other machines, read the description of all Geth weapons and will notice this.

The Geth knew Nazara wasn't alone and the Reapers attacking them was a strong posivility so they prepared for that, the only reason the Quarians got began to win is because the Geth where focusing all their resources to fight the reapers/heretics combo.

Disclaimer: on a stupid phone...

[Olueq]

Elite Midget wrote...

Olueq wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

4stringwizard wrote...

fr33stylez wrote...

MakeMineMako wrote...

Peace is THE ONLY OPTION as far as I'm concerned.

The Geth never asked for war. Nor did the Quarian people.

Saving both is they best route to take.

Of course. This should be the desired route to take.

But I think the focus of the thread is how the Geth's transgression are largely ignored, while the Quarians are villified.

Personally, they both have made terrible mistakes. The Quarians (at least their leadership) has continually been the agressor in the conflict.

The Geth ahve shown a propoensity to side with the Reapers on more than one occasaion.

^^^ THIS.  The whole point is how so many people seem to miss the Geth's mistakes while focusing solely on the Quarians'.

Nah. The geth as a collective have never chosen the side of the reapers. Instead, Nazara approached the geth to convince them to serve the reapers. Only part of the geth did. The two groups split and the heretics are the ones we fight. The quarians, however, do not see that distinction. They keep on attacking the geth, no matter what side they are on.

Even Tali knows that and she knows that Legion (the personification of the non-heretic geth) wants peace. Given that and the past with her father it didn't surprise me that she had to revert to an emergency induction port. Ghehe. Anyway...

It is not very smart, because the quarians already have the reapers and heretics as enemies as well. Even delaying reclaiming their homeworlds one way or another until the reapers would have been defeated could have helped. But no. The quarians rather face extinction than fight reapers.

The same rule applies to the quarians in yet you say they are all at fault? Okay...... Also, NO ONE knows about the true geth except Tali and even then thats only going by the word of ONE geth who could easily be lying. The fact that the heretics are the only geth any one has contact with ever makes it hard for people to trust them.

When push came to shove no Quarian tried to seriously stop the attack even at Sheperds urging. Many wanyed genocide, it's ironic that they would be the ones getting it if they choose to try and pursue that path.

I WOULD reply.... but I know all to well of your antics, elite.

[Esker02]

Shaoken wrote...

People side with the Geth over the Quarians because in both wars the Quarians were always the agressors, and the Quarians are trying to avoid owning up to their mistakes; in the first war the Quarians tried to kill all of the Geth to cover up the fact that they made an AI and were treating a self-aware race as slaves. At no point over the next 300 years did they ever admit that they were wrong to do so.

I was honestly disappointed there was no option to arrest the Admiralty board for violating Citadel law after it turned out they converted a lot of their shps into Dreadnaughts. That was my knee-jerk reaction after that and being fired upon while on that Dreadnaught and the fact that the Admiralty board put their entire species in danger by pulling them all into a war.

This is a total mischaracterization of events, in ways that aren't even worth going into. But let me put it to you like this. It's easy looking from the outside in and saying that the geth are somehow persons worthy of "life." But from the quarian perspective, they built the machines from the ground up. They know how they operate, how they process data, how they respond to stimuli, and so forth.

You're expecting a builder of a machine to suddenly go "OH WOW I MADE LIFE!" rather than to continue to treat it like the machine that it always was to him, up until some arbitrary, difficult to define point. The quarians behavior in the Morning War was understandable. The geth were their property, and they continued to treat them the only way the understood how.

After years of reflection, had the geth been even slightly willing to extend a hand and communicate, rather than shoot to kill anything and everything that came near them, perhaps the quarians could have seen them from a different angle. As it was, it was a moot point. Life or not, they were occupiers of their homeland who killed everything that came near them. Why are the quarians to be faulted for trying to live at their home again? Is that really so insane? The geth just wanted to live, people say. Well, in a very meaningful way, that's all the quarians wanted as well.

Maybe the quarians were unwilling to communicate with the geth the first time because they had an inability to think of them as anything but property. Does that excuse them? Maybe, maybe not. But the geth have no such excuse. They never offered terms of surrender in the Morning War, or offered to surrender in ME3. They provided only extreme outcomes as options, and cemented that commitment by going to the reapers. Why the quarians should suffer because of that is beyond me.

[G Kevin]

Elite Midget wrote...

CDHarrisUSF wrote...

Some people in here (like Shallyah) have been demonstrating disturbing rationalizations for killing the Geth. Humans are organic machines. We are computers. Our thought is nothing but the combined reactions of nearly 100 billion cells in our brains interacting with each other according to the laws of physics. If you had the computing power and understanding to simulate the reactions of all of those molecules in software, you could create a synthetic brain which is functionally identical to a human brain. What this tells us is that being organic in and of itself is not the important factor. What then becomes important is the intelligence, the quality of being sentient, etc.

Eugenics can be a dangerous path to go down. Assuming that you have the right to deny any other sentient being's right to exist (with the exception of self-defense) based on some arbitrary rule of your choosing (being synthetic), it follows that some "higher" being than you (Star Child) might decide that you do not have a right to exist based on an arbitary reason of its choosing (to "protect" organic life). We just all need to agree to avoid going down that road. We don't want to end up with Space Hitler. Judge the actions, not the people.

Great work, didn't think of that. Was trying to get to the point but never got there.

Good point, which I agree with. Problem I see here is that neither side is right by actions. That's why people are brought in. It adds context to those actions to see if those actions are justified.

[4stringwizard]

Ponei wrote...

This thread has no purpose other than **** things up. There's a PEACE option people, you should try it out sometime! HAPPY ENDING FOR EVERYONE

But it's not ALWAYS an option in the game unless you do everything right.  Hence the debate.  

And to be clear again - I chose the peace option.  The point of this - again - is why there is so much bias toward the Geth (or at least that's whay I thought). 

Modifié par 4stringwizard, 10 avril 2012 - 12:41 .

[Aramina]

G Kevin wrote...

Aramina wrote...

But the big difference in your scenario is that we are the ones choosing to do the experiments on our own people, and for our betterment instead of to find tactical weaknesses. And that is mostly done with their consent. If some alien race abducted humans and experimented on them without their consent, you can bet those humans would be pissed and do anything to get away.

Also as to why the Geth attaked Legion. The geth programs are still individuals and come up with their own ideas. Just look at Legion's quandry in his own loyalty mission...the programs inhabiting the same platform couldn't agree on what to do. The Geth on the quarian ship attack your crew regardless of who you bring. The most likely explanation is they see you as a threat to their survival, just as they saw the Quarians on the ship that were experimenting on them. And if Legion helps you, he is also a threat to their survival. Just because he's "one of them" doesn't mean they have the same ideas.

As far as we know, those Geth were not being hurt. Just examined.

So individual Geth programs do not try to reason, rather try to murder anyone who approaches them? Hell Legion could have done something, tried to form a consensus. The fact that he did not try anything surprises me.

Individual geth programs do not have the capability to do any higher reasoning. The less geth there are in a network means less "intelligence" to work  with. For all we know, there were not enough geth programs on the ship for more than a "fight or flight" response. I don't recall their being any servers there. And Legion would have probably needed access to one if he wanted to try interfacing with the geth on board the ship. Also, even if he did, what would he say to them?

Legion: Stop attacking Shepard and her/his crew. Oh, but the Quarians waiting on the other ships will still kill you anyway.
Geth: .....no.
Legion: Oh well, I can't blame you.

Probably something along these lines.

Modifié par Aramina, 10 avril 2012 - 12:42 .

[LystAP]

Uploading the code didn't make the Geth commit genocide, it only made them smart enough to defend themselves. Note the first thing they did when they became aware is to send fighters to intercept the Quarians' barrage.

Although it was obvious that the Geth have become upgraded and that they could lose, Admiral Gerrel ordered all ships to keep on firing anyways. All the Geth did then was return fire.

Modifié par LystAP, 10 avril 2012 - 12:42 .

[tractrpl]

I never wanted to destroy all of the geth, and I never wanted to destroy all of the quarians. Only being able to choose between those two options means you obviously didn't play ME1 and ME2 to the full tilt.

However, after what Han Gerrel pulled on that Geth ship, I wanted HIM dead. If I had my way, that quarian bastard would have his head on a ****ing pike!

[wantedman dan]

Olueq wrote...

Your trolling needs work. If you didnt notice though, in case, I am having the same argument with another peron. I simply gave up on you due to trolling....... or lack of intelligence (ill let you pick).

Isn't that cute. You have yet to address any of the points I made; you simply talked past them. I've made all of my arguments consist of rationally-, logically-, and factually-based statements.

You, my dear, cannot say the same. 

[rex285]

fr33stylez wrote...

rex285 wrote...

4stringwizard wrote...

Elite Midget wrote...

fr33stylez wrote...

Elite Midget wrote...

4stringwizard wrote...

Elite Midget wrote...

Heretics served the Reapers, a minority. The rest stayed on their planet and fought the Reaper control. In ME3 they were forced to serve the Reapers due to Quarians threatening Genocide. The Quarians were at fault YET AGAIN.

They weren't forced.  THEY CHOSE.  They had other options.  They just didn't use them. 

/Logic

No, they were forced. The Quarians were threatening to wipe them out and Legion was captured and forced to feed information to push the Geth to join the Reapers. Had the Geth not obeyed the Quarians would have wiped them out.

They were not forced. They had a choice. If you believe turning to the Reapers when you're in a diffcult position is the right thing to do, then you're against everything Shepard stood for.

It's like saying I'm forced to set off a bomb in my school in order to escape a bunch of bullies.

You're not understanding anything. Let me try and speak in a manner that you will understand.

The Geth either joined the Reapers or get wiped out by the Reapers on one front and the Quarians on another. Than the Reapers wipe out the Quarians. They didn't want to die and didn't want to kill their creators. When they do kill their creators it was in self-defense yet again. The Quarians are just repeating their same dark history all over again.

They didn't have to side with the Reapers.  They could have fought them.  Heck, they could have even fled when the Quarians came.  But no, they chose to side with an evil entity.  Even if they couldn't have fled, it doesn't justify their actions. 

An analogy: say Russia was attacking the U.S (or whatever country you may belong to) and bent on destroying it.  Then out of the blue, an alien race descends on earth - and they're bent on wiping out humans everywhere.  However, they offer your country weapon technology that gives you a chance to fight off Russia IF you side with them.  Would you have sided with the aliens, knowing what their goal was?  

If your answer was yes, then I question your sense as a human. 

If the Russians continued to attack me, such as the Quarians did when the reapers invaded, then Yes i would because once Russia is dealt with I can unite with the rest of the world and use my new "toys" to fight off the aliens.

Your analogy was absolutely terrible...

LOL. Wait - so you think that the Geth after destorying the Quarians could just tell the Reapers 'goodbye'?

Seriously? lol.

If that was true, Shepard would not have been needed in ME3. I don't think you understand the implications of the Geth agreeing to Reaper tech.

Editing your analogy post so that it would seem that I was wrong. Great Idea my friend... 

Your original analogy was wrong, you never stated that I had to side with the invading aliens to get their tech. Hence, your analogy was wrong.

[Olueq]

Chaoswind wrote...

Olueq

They never tried after the morning war because Nazara made contact with them, when they refused the "help" of the reapers they began to develop weapons designed to fight other machines because they knew Nazara using the heretics to attack the true geth was a possibility.

Most of the weapons the Geth developed after the moring war where made to fight other machines, read the description of all Geth weapons and will notice this.

The Geth knew Nazara wasn't alone and the Reapers attacking them was a strong posivility so they prepared for that, the only reason the Quarians got began to win is because the Geth where focusing all their resources to fight the reapers/heretics combo.

Disclaimer: on a stupid phone...

Thats not the point. The point is, theres no way the rest of the galaxy would know that the the gethw ant peace. How can organics tell the difference between the true geth and heretics? If the only contact with the geth that anyone got was with hostilities then I dont blame them. If the geth would have just sent a few messages saying: ``Yo, were not all bad, is there any way we can prove to you that we want peace?`` Instead they didnt do anything. As far as the quarians know, all the geth are heretics. I alo dont agree with the quarians wanting to kill the geth but really that all comes down to gerrel forcing them.

[G Kevin]

Aramina wrote...

G Kevin wrote...

Aramina wrote...

But the big difference in your scenario is that we are the ones choosing to do the experiments on our own people, and for our betterment instead of to find tactical weaknesses. And that is mostly done with their consent. If some alien race abducted humans and experimented on them without their consent, you can bet those humans would be pissed and do anything to get away.

Also as to why the Geth attaked Legion. The geth programs are still individuals and come up with their own ideas. Just look at Legion's quandry in his own loyalty mission...the programs inhabiting the same platform couldn't agree on what to do. The Geth on the quarian ship attack your crew regardless of who you bring. The most likely explanation is they see you as a threat to their survival, just as they saw the Quarians on the ship that were experimenting on them. And if Legion helps you, he is also a threat to their survival. Just because he's "one of them" doesn't mean they have the same ideas.

As far as we know, those Geth were not being hurt. Just examined.

So individual Geth programs do not try to reason, rather try to murder anyone who approaches them? Hell Legion could have done something, tried to form a consensus. The fact that he did not try anything surprises me.

Individual geth programs do not have the capability to do any higher reasoning. The less geth their are in a network means less "intelligence" to work  with. For all we know, there were not enough geth programs on the ship for more than a "fight or flight" response. I don't recall their being any servers there. And Legion would have probably needed access to one if he wanted to try interfacing with the geth on board the ship. Also, even if he did, what would he say to them?

Legion: Stop attacking Shepard and her/his crew. Oh, but the Quarians waiting on the other ships will still kill you anyway.
Geth: .....no.
Legion: Oh well, I can't blame you.

Probably something along these lines.

Legion could have told the Geth to stop attacking Shep's crew, then he could have told Shep not to attack. Tell the Quarians as well not to attack and make a peace negotiation right then and there with Shepard there to authorize it.

At the end of the day, somebody has to step up and be the "better man." Both sides didn't so, yea...

[Olueq]

wantedman dan wrote...

Olueq wrote...

Your trolling needs work. If you didnt notice though, in case, I am having the same argument with another peron. I simply gave up on you due to trolling....... or lack of intelligence (ill let you pick).

Isn't that cute. You have yet to address any of the points I made; you simply talked past them. I've made all of my arguments consist of rationally-, logically-, and factually-based statements.

You, my dear, cannot say the same. 

[4stringwizard]

wantedman dan wrote...

Olueq wrote...

Your trolling needs work. If you didnt notice though, in case, I am having the same argument with another peron. I simply gave up on you due to trolling....... or lack of intelligence (ill let you pick).

Isn't that cute. You have yet to address any of the points I made; you simply talked past them. I've made all of my arguments consist of rationally-, logically-, and factually-based statements.

You, my dear, cannot say the same. 

Or so you'd like to think.  

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

First play through playing too much of a paragade to get the blue and red conversation options for peace, and didn't do enough wandering around talking to everyone and doing all the little quests to bump rep, hurt a bit. So I had to make the call. I'd blown the Geth heretic base in ME2.

* Support the Geth or support the Quarians.

Now as an Alliance officer, Shepard had orders to deliver the Quarian fleet to Hackett no matter the cost, right? Shepard had her orders, and never mind who started it. Shepard is a Commander. Hackett is an Admiral. Hackett got his fleet.

So is what the Quarians do your responsibility? I'm sure to them it was a situation of fry the frackin' toasters. All Shepard did was hold Legion to its word about not uploading the Reaper code to the rest of the Geth.

It was touch and go on the bridge afterward with EDI for a little bit. I told EDI that the Geth were working for the Reapers and to STFU.

We were only following orders.

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 10 avril 2012 - 12:48 .

[wantedman dan]

4stringwizard wrote...

wantedman dan wrote...

Olueq wrote...

Your trolling needs work. If you didnt notice though, in case, I am having the same argument with another peron. I simply gave up on you due to trolling....... or lack of intelligence (ill let you pick).

Isn't that cute. You have yet to address any of the points I made; you simply talked past them. I've made all of my arguments consist of rationally-, logically-, and factually-based statements.

You, my dear, cannot say the same. 

Or so you'd like to think.  

You have proof to the otherwise?

[G Kevin]

LystAP wrote...

Uploading the code didn't make the Geth commit genocide, it only made them smart enough to defend themselves. Note the first thing they did when they became aware is to send fighters to intercept the Quarians' barrage.

Although it was obvious that the Geth have become upgraded and that they could lose, Admiral Gerrel ordered all ships to keep on firing anyways. All the Geth did then was return fire.

Why not disable the Quarians ships. Also, if the reaper code only made them smart enough to defend themselves, then they were not fully intelligent were they?

[Aramina]

G Kevin wrote...

Aramina wrote...

G Kevin wrote...

Aramina wrote...

But the big difference in your scenario is that we are the ones choosing to do the experiments on our own people, and for our betterment instead of to find tactical weaknesses. And that is mostly done with their consent. If some alien race abducted humans and experimented on them without their consent, you can bet those humans would be pissed and do anything to get away.

Also as to why the Geth attaked Legion. The geth programs are still individuals and come up with their own ideas. Just look at Legion's quandry in his own loyalty mission...the programs inhabiting the same platform couldn't agree on what to do. The Geth on the quarian ship attack your crew regardless of who you bring. The most likely explanation is they see you as a threat to their survival, just as they saw the Quarians on the ship that were experimenting on them. And if Legion helps you, he is also a threat to their survival. Just because he's "one of them" doesn't mean they have the same ideas.

As far as we know, those Geth were not being hurt. Just examined.

So individual Geth programs do not try to reason, rather try to murder anyone who approaches them? Hell Legion could have done something, tried to form a consensus. The fact that he did not try anything surprises me.

Individual geth programs do not have the capability to do any higher reasoning. The less geth their are in a network means less "intelligence" to work  with. For all we know, there were not enough geth programs on the ship for more than a "fight or flight" response. I don't recall their being any servers there. And Legion would have probably needed access to one if he wanted to try interfacing with the geth on board the ship. Also, even if he did, what would he say to them?

Legion: Stop attacking Shepard and her/his crew. Oh, but the Quarians waiting on the other ships will still kill you anyway.
Geth: .....no.
Legion: Oh well, I can't blame you.

Probably something along these lines.

Legion could have told the Geth to stop attacking Shep's crew, then he could have told Shep not to attack. Tell the Quarians as well not to attack and make a peace negotiation right then and there with Shepard there to authorize it.

At the end of the day, somebody has to step up and be the "better man." Both sides didn't so, yea...

That's assuming the Quarians wanted peace. Which at this point they've made pretty clear they don't. The ones advocating it are in the minority, and at this point Shepard doesn't have enough pull with the fleet to demand they listen. In the end, the geth were forced into a corner, and fighting was the only way out.

[wantedman dan]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

We were only following orders.

That's a pretty demented rationalization for genocide.

[Olueq]

wantedman dan wrote...

4stringwizard wrote...

wantedman dan wrote...

Olueq wrote...

Your trolling needs work. If you didnt notice though, in case, I am having the same argument with another peron. I simply gave up on you due to trolling....... or lack of intelligence (ill let you pick).

Isn't that cute. You have yet to address any of the points I made; you simply talked past them. I've made all of my arguments consist of rationally-, logically-, and factually-based statements.

You, my dear, cannot say the same. 

Or so you'd like to think.  

You have proof to the otherwise?

I could say the same

[Russmandarin]

A machine can't be born it was created. the geth have no claim to that planet besides forcing the quarians off it.
They were created to be servants but gained sentience. At that point the quarians felt the correct response was violence which was wrong.

Now as far as this whole is it wrong to kill the geth? There is no galactic loss you are losing a bunch of AIs which can be created again wherease alien life such as the quarians being wiped out is the real deal they are gone forever.

[4stringwizard]

rex285 wrote...


Editing your analogy post so that it would seem that I was wrong. Great Idea my friend... 

Your original analogy was wrong, you never stated that I had to side with the invading aliens to get their tech. Hence, your analogy was wrong.

No...I said exactly that in my original post.  If I didn't, your QUOTE wouldn't have said what I said.  You my friend just didn't pay attention.  

You just failed hard on many levels.  

Modifié par 4stringwizard, 10 avril 2012 - 12:48 .

[rex285]

G Kevin wrote...

LystAP wrote...

Uploading the code didn't make the Geth commit genocide, it only made them smart enough to defend themselves. Note the first thing they did when they became aware is to send fighters to intercept the Quarians' barrage.

Although it was obvious that the Geth have become upgraded and that they could lose, Admiral Gerrel ordered all ships to keep on firing anyways. All the Geth did then was return fire.

Why not disable the Quarians ships. Also, if the reaper code only made them smart enough to defend themselves, then they were not fully intelligent were they?

Nope, but you need to know that there is a difference between Inteligence and Sentience. Stupid people aren't inteligent, but they are still sentient. It is still considered wrong to kill stupid people.