861 réponses à ce sujet

[wantedman dan]

Olueq wrote...

I could say the same

Considering you've been proven factually incorrect on more than one instance and had your own logic used against you in a form you did not account for, you dont have much of a pedestal to preach from. 

[Olueq]

Aramina wrote...

G Kevin wrote...

Aramina wrote...

G Kevin wrote...

Aramina wrote...

But the big difference in your scenario is that we are the ones choosing to do the experiments on our own people, and for our betterment instead of to find tactical weaknesses. And that is mostly done with their consent. If some alien race abducted humans and experimented on them without their consent, you can bet those humans would be pissed and do anything to get away.

Also as to why the Geth attaked Legion. The geth programs are still individuals and come up with their own ideas. Just look at Legion's quandry in his own loyalty mission...the programs inhabiting the same platform couldn't agree on what to do. The Geth on the quarian ship attack your crew regardless of who you bring. The most likely explanation is they see you as a threat to their survival, just as they saw the Quarians on the ship that were experimenting on them. And if Legion helps you, he is also a threat to their survival. Just because he's "one of them" doesn't mean they have the same ideas.

As far as we know, those Geth were not being hurt. Just examined.

So individual Geth programs do not try to reason, rather try to murder anyone who approaches them? Hell Legion could have done something, tried to form a consensus. The fact that he did not try anything surprises me.

Individual geth programs do not have the capability to do any higher reasoning. The less geth their are in a network means less "intelligence" to work  with. For all we know, there were not enough geth programs on the ship for more than a "fight or flight" response. I don't recall their being any servers there. And Legion would have probably needed access to one if he wanted to try interfacing with the geth on board the ship. Also, even if he did, what would he say to them?

Legion: Stop attacking Shepard and her/his crew. Oh, but the Quarians waiting on the other ships will still kill you anyway.
Geth: .....no.
Legion: Oh well, I can't blame you.

Probably something along these lines.

Legion could have told the Geth to stop attacking Shep's crew, then he could have told Shep not to attack. Tell the Quarians as well not to attack and make a peace negotiation right then and there with Shepard there to authorize it.

At the end of the day, somebody has to step up and be the "better man." Both sides didn't so, yea...

That's assuming the Quarians wanted peace. Which at this point they've made pretty clear they don't. The ones advocating it are in the minority, and at this point Shepard doesn't have enough pull with the fleet to demand they listen. In the end, the geth were forced into a corner, and fighting was the only way out.

Thats not true at all. The majority dont want to fight. The entire civilian fleet was forced to.

[CavScout]

wantedman dan wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

We were only following orders.

That's a pretty demented rationalization for genocide.

Isn't that pretty much the Geth reasoning when they are killing organics in ME1?

[Lokanaiya]

1. The quarians knew that the geth had become AI when they attacked. In fact, that's WHY they attacked at all. They had promised, along with the rest of the Citadel races, to never create an AI. And what the game makes clear is that they didn't have sentience like organics do until Legion uploads the Reaper code, before that they had their own type of group intelligence.

2. Legion says that the heretics are only 5% of their population joined the Reapers in ME1. I bet that if a large, powerful being that is everything we ever want to be suddenly showed up on Earth and said "come help me bring more of those like me here and I'll give you your heart's desire," a lot more than 5% of humans would get up and go. Also, it was after a large number of geth programs were destroyed, and their intelligence level collectively dropped, that they decided to accept help from the Reapers. They couldn't fully think the consequences and likely outcome through anymore, and so went with short-term self-preservation and not long term idealism and outcome.

3. Actually, there was no reason for the geth to NOT wipe the quarians out, if you think about it. Stupid would just have followed and finished the job without stopping to think about it. Smart would have seen that the Quarians were likely to come back sometime and attack them again. Average would have weighed pros and cons and seen there are very little pros to letting them escape, if any. The only reason the geth would have stopped is if they had moral or emotional qualms about destroying them. Just saying.

[Olueq]

wantedman dan wrote...

Olueq wrote...

I could say the same

Considering you've been proven factually incorrect on more than one instance and had your own logic used against you in a form you did not account for, you dont have much of a pedestal to preach from. 

Again, I could say the same.

[4stringwizard]

Aramina wrote...


That's assuming the Quarians wanted peace. Which at this point they've made pretty clear they don't. The ones advocating it are in the minority, and at this point Shepard doesn't have enough pull with the fleet to demand they listen. In the end, the geth were forced into a corner, and fighting was the only way out.

But Tali wanted peace.  And the game made it clear that many Quarians opposed the conflict.  The same was true of the Morning War.  Many Quarians actually fought to defend the Geth.  

[wantedman dan]

Olueq wrote...

Thats not true at all. The majority dont want to fight. The entire civilian fleet was forced to.

That kind of spineless assertion helped the Holocaust. Ironic that it's in a conversation about genocide, eh?

[Aramina]

Russmandarin wrote...

A machine can't be born it was created. the geth have no claim to that planet besides forcing the quarians off it.
They were created to be servants but gained sentience. At that point the quarians felt the correct response was violence which was wrong.

Now as far as this whole is it wrong to kill the geth? There is no galactic loss you are losing a bunch of AIs which can be created again wherease alien life such as the quarians being wiped out is the real deal they are gone forever.

If they can be remade, why couldn't the Geth remake Legion when he sacrifices himself? They have his entire personality given to them, and yet the thing that made him "Legion" was gone, never to be remade. You can say the same thing about an organic brain. You may be able to clone it, but what made the person's "spark" can't be remade so easily.

[fr33stylez]

rex285 wrote...

fr33stylez wrote...

rex285 wrote...

4stringwizard wrote...

Elite Midget wrote...

fr33stylez wrote...

Elite Midget wrote...

4stringwizard wrote...

Elite Midget wrote...

Heretics served the Reapers, a minority. The rest stayed on their planet and fought the Reaper control. In ME3 they were forced to serve the Reapers due to Quarians threatening Genocide. The Quarians were at fault YET AGAIN.

They weren't forced.  THEY CHOSE.  They had other options.  They just didn't use them. 

/Logic

No, they were forced. The Quarians were threatening to wipe them out and Legion was captured and forced to feed information to push the Geth to join the Reapers. Had the Geth not obeyed the Quarians would have wiped them out.

They were not forced. They had a choice. If you believe turning to the Reapers when you're in a diffcult position is the right thing to do, then you're against everything Shepard stood for.

It's like saying I'm forced to set off a bomb in my school in order to escape a bunch of bullies.

You're not understanding anything. Let me try and speak in a manner that you will understand.

The Geth either joined the Reapers or get wiped out by the Reapers on one front and the Quarians on another. Than the Reapers wipe out the Quarians. They didn't want to die and didn't want to kill their creators. When they do kill their creators it was in self-defense yet again. The Quarians are just repeating their same dark history all over again.

They didn't have to side with the Reapers.  They could have fought them.  Heck, they could have even fled when the Quarians came.  But no, they chose to side with an evil entity.  Even if they couldn't have fled, it doesn't justify their actions. 

An analogy: say Russia was attacking the U.S (or whatever country you may belong to) and bent on destroying it.  Then out of the blue, an alien race descends on earth - and they're bent on wiping out humans everywhere.  However, they offer your country weapon technology that gives you a chance to fight off Russia IF you side with them.  Would you have sided with the aliens, knowing what their goal was?  

If your answer was yes, then I question your sense as a human. 

If the Russians continued to attack me, such as the Quarians did when the reapers invaded, then Yes i would because once Russia is dealt with I can unite with the rest of the world and use my new "toys" to fight off the aliens.

Your analogy was absolutely terrible...

LOL. Wait - so you think that the Geth after destorying the Quarians could just tell the Reapers 'goodbye'?

Seriously? lol.

If that was true, Shepard would not have been needed in ME3. I don't think you understand the implications of the Geth agreeing to Reaper tech.

Editing your analogy post so that it would seem that I was wrong. Great Idea my friend... 

Your original analogy was wrong, you never stated that I had to side with the invading aliens to get their tech. Hence, your analogy was wrong.

I assume you're not quoting my response, but I'll respond anyways.

"having to to side with the invading aliens to get their tech." Is exactly what the Geth did, so I'm not sure why it matters much if he slightly changed the analogy (maybe he changed it as you were typing to correct it, I don't know).

[G Kevin]

Aramina wrote...

G Kevin wrote...

Aramina wrote...

G Kevin wrote...

Aramina wrote...

But the big difference in your scenario is that we are the ones choosing to do the experiments on our own people, and for our betterment instead of to find tactical weaknesses. And that is mostly done with their consent. If some alien race abducted humans and experimented on them without their consent, you can bet those humans would be pissed and do anything to get away.

Also as to why the Geth attaked Legion. The geth programs are still individuals and come up with their own ideas. Just look at Legion's quandry in his own loyalty mission...the programs inhabiting the same platform couldn't agree on what to do. The Geth on the quarian ship attack your crew regardless of who you bring. The most likely explanation is they see you as a threat to their survival, just as they saw the Quarians on the ship that were experimenting on them. And if Legion helps you, he is also a threat to their survival. Just because he's "one of them" doesn't mean they have the same ideas.

As far as we know, those Geth were not being hurt. Just examined.

So individual Geth programs do not try to reason, rather try to murder anyone who approaches them? Hell Legion could have done something, tried to form a consensus. The fact that he did not try anything surprises me.

Individual geth programs do not have the capability to do any higher reasoning. The less geth their are in a network means less "intelligence" to work  with. For all we know, there were not enough geth programs on the ship for more than a "fight or flight" response. I don't recall their being any servers there. And Legion would have probably needed access to one if he wanted to try interfacing with the geth on board the ship. Also, even if he did, what would he say to them?

Legion: Stop attacking Shepard and her/his crew. Oh, but the Quarians waiting on the other ships will still kill you anyway.
Geth: .....no.
Legion: Oh well, I can't blame you.

Probably something along these lines.

Legion could have told the Geth to stop attacking Shep's crew, then he could have told Shep not to attack. Tell the Quarians as well not to attack and make a peace negotiation right then and there with Shepard there to authorize it.

At the end of the day, somebody has to step up and be the "better man." Both sides didn't so, yea...

That's assuming the Quarians wanted peace. Which at this point they've made pretty clear they don't. The ones advocating it are in the minority, and at this point Shepard doesn't have enough pull with the fleet to demand they listen. In the end, the geth were forced into a corner, and fighting was the only way out.

Didn't most of the admirals in the loyalty mission agree that they did not want to fight the Geth? Also, how did Shepard have enough pull to convince the Admiral's that that Tali should not be exiled?

Also, coudn't legion intervene? Go to the other ship by himself. Shepard trusts him enough, he could send him in to make peace.

[wantedman dan]

CavScout wrote...

wantedman dan wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

We were only following orders.

That's a pretty demented rationalization for genocide.

Isn't that pretty much the Geth reasoning when they are killing organics in ME1?

It may be, I don't know. I'm not denying Geth made mistakes.

[wantedman dan]

Olueq wrote...

And I could say the same.

And only one of us would have any factual basis to say it. His name starts with a "W" and ends with "antedMan Dan". 

[CavScout]

wantedman dan wrote...

Olueq wrote...

Thats not true at all. The majority dont want to fight. The entire civilian fleet was forced to.

That kind of spineless assertion helped the Holocaust. Ironic that it's in a conversation about genocide, eh?

The irony is the defense of the Geth, the ones who committed wholesale genocide and ethnic displacement.

[G Kevin]

rex285 wrote...

G Kevin wrote...

LystAP wrote...

Uploading the code didn't make the Geth commit genocide, it only made them smart enough to defend themselves. Note the first thing they did when they became aware is to send fighters to intercept the Quarians' barrage.

Although it was obvious that the Geth have become upgraded and that they could lose, Admiral Gerrel ordered all ships to keep on firing anyways. All the Geth did then was return fire.

Why not disable the Quarians ships. Also, if the reaper code only made them smart enough to defend themselves, then they were not fully intelligent were they?

Nope, but you need to know that there is a difference between Inteligence and Sentience. Stupid people aren't inteligent, but they are still sentient. It is still considered wrong to kill stupid people.

Yes, but stupid people killing intelligent people is considered wrong as well.

[Olueq]

wantedman dan wrote...

Olueq wrote...

Thats not true at all. The majority dont want to fight. The entire civilian fleet was forced to.

That kind of spineless assertion helped the Holocaust. Ironic that it's in a conversation about genocide, eh?

Lol, so by your logic, the geth are just as guilty.

[Adanu]

The Geth are not sentient. They are advanced networked VIs until the moment they got the Reaper code upgrades.

At that point, they became sentient.

[Aramina]

4stringwizard wrote...

Aramina wrote...


That's assuming the Quarians wanted peace. Which at this point they've made pretty clear they don't. The ones advocating it are in the minority, and at this point Shepard doesn't have enough pull with the fleet to demand they listen. In the end, the geth were forced into a corner, and fighting was the only way out.

But Tali wanted peace.  And the game made it clear that many Quarians opposed the conflict.  The same was true of the Morning War.  Many Quarians actually fought to defend the Geth.  

"Many" didn't matter. The majority wanted war. I don't think that would be much consolation to the geth as they're being attacked. "Well, not all of them want you wiped out, just some of them!" The Quarian society is portrayed as one that considers the whole rather than the individual, so if the majority went to war, the minority would follow, as we saw in ME3.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

wantedman dan wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

We were only following orders.

That's a pretty demented rationalization for genocide.

Shepard didn't fire the gun (well actually did kill Legion). Shepard didn't give the Quarians the order to fire on the Geth. The Quarians and Geth could have made peace with each other anytime. But the Geth programs wouldn't have reached a consensus. Hell, they couldn't even reach consensus about rewriting the heretics.

And what if upon uploading the reaper code they were still hostile to the Quarians. What then? Then you could lose both.

Shepard's orders were to deliver the Quarian fleet. Billions of people were dying. Shepard is going to worry about machines?

Note: Tali was exiled and was a "consultant" for the Quarians.

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 10 avril 2012 - 12:58 .

[CavScout]

wantedman dan wrote...

CavScout wrote...

wantedman dan wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

We were only following orders.

That's a pretty demented rationalization for genocide.

Isn't that pretty much the Geth reasoning when they are killing organics in ME1?

It may be, I don't know. I'm not denying Geth made mistakes.

Using your analogy, I guess a few Germans could claim the same thing....

[4stringwizard]

wantedman dan wrote...

Olueq wrote...

And I could say the same.

And only one of us would have any factual basis to say it. His name starts with a "W" and ends with "antedMan Dan". 

Wow!  Unfunny AND unclever!!  Well done!  

[wantedman dan]

CavScout wrote...

The irony is the defense of the Geth, the ones who committed wholesale genocide and ethnic displacement.

In this context, no, I disagree, as has already been established. You cannot blame the many for the actions of the few. That is irresponsible.

On that note, I've got some late dinner to eat with some pals.

Have fun, everyone.

[4stringwizard]

fr33stylez wrote...

rex285 wrote...


Editing your analogy post so that it would seem that I was wrong. Great Idea my friend... 

Your original analogy was wrong, you never stated that I had to side with the invading aliens to get their tech. Hence, your analogy was wrong.

I assume you're not quoting my response, but I'll respond anyways.

"having to to side with the invading aliens to get their tech." Is exactly what the Geth did, so I'm not sure why it matters much if he slightly changed the analogy (maybe he changed it as you were typing to correct it, I don't know).

I DIDN'T change it to appear right.  The post he quoted says exactly what he claims it DIDN'T say.  

[Olueq]

wantedman dan wrote...

CavScout wrote...

The irony is the defense of the Geth, the ones who committed wholesale genocide and ethnic displacement.

In this context, no, I disagree, as has already been established. You cannot blame the many for the actions of the few. That is irresponsible.

On that note, I've got some late dinner to eat with some pals.

Have fun, everyone.

Facepalm

[G Kevin]

Aramina wrote...

4stringwizard wrote...

Aramina wrote...


That's assuming the Quarians wanted peace. Which at this point they've made pretty clear they don't. The ones advocating it are in the minority, and at this point Shepard doesn't have enough pull with the fleet to demand they listen. In the end, the geth were forced into a corner, and fighting was the only way out.

But Tali wanted peace.  And the game made it clear that many Quarians opposed the conflict.  The same was true of the Morning War.  Many Quarians actually fought to defend the Geth.  

"Many" didn't matter. The majority wanted war. I don't think that would be much consolation to the geth as they're being attacked. "Well, not all of them want you wiped out, just some of them!" The Quarian society is portrayed as one that considers the whole rather than the individual, so if the majority went to war, the minority would follow, as we saw in ME3.

Majority of the military wanted war. The civilians that we were walking by in ME2 did not want war. Plus. its not like the Quarians are self-sufficient. If the military leaves them to fight the Geth, they know that they will be weak to anyone who came after the Quarians, such as the Reapers. So they had to go with the Military.