861 réponses à ce sujet

[CavScout]

wantedman dan wrote...

CavScout wrote...

The irony is the defense of the Geth, the ones who committed wholesale genocide and ethnic displacement.

In this context, no, I disagree, as has already been established. You cannot blame the many for the actions of the few. That is irresponsible.

On that note, I've got some late dinner to eat with some pals.

Have fun, everyone.

You can disagree but you are wrong. The Geth killed millioins of Quarians and chased the rest off their homeworld. The Geth could have fought to leave the planet or even simply uploaded their "minds" to safer areas. They didn't have to exterminate the Quarians from the face of the planet.

PS: What do you mean you can't blame the many for the actions of the few? Did you say this?

Modifié par CavScout, 10 avril 2012 - 01:00 .

[4stringwizard]

Again - thanks on the responses everyone! This turned into a really great debate (in most parts).

I guess it beats bringing up the ending travesty again... Crap! I just did it, didn't I??

[Ponei]

Who likes happy endings? I do

[Olueq]

Ponei wrote...

Who likes happy endings? I do

Bioware doesnt.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Olueq wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Nah. The geth as a collective have never chosen the side of the reapers. Instead, Nazara approached the geth to convince them to serve the reapers. Only part of the geth did. The two groups split and the heretics are the ones we fight. The quarians, however, do not see that distinction. They keep on attacking the geth, no matter what side they are on.

Even Tali knows that and she knows that Legion (the personification of the non-heretic geth) wants peace. Given that and the past with her father it didn't surprise me that she had to revert to an emergency induction port. Ghehe. Anyway...

It is not very smart, because the quarians already have the reapers and heretics as enemies as well. Even delaying reclaiming their homeworlds one way or another until the reapers would have been defeated could have helped. But no. The quarians rather face extinction than fight reapers.

The same rule applies to the quarians in yet you say they are all at fault? Okay...... Also, NO ONE knows about the true geth except Tali and even then thats only going by the word of ONE geth who could easily be lying. The fact that the heretics are the only geth any one has contact with ever makes it hard for people to trust them.

The geth didn't start all this, remember? Read the story I told you on page 1. Both the quarians and geth have told us that very same story. The geth (not to be confused with the heretics) had to defend themselves more than once against the aggression of the quarians. Besides, there is no such thing as one geth up until the data in ME3 has been uploaded. Legion, who passed the information in ME2, represents all non-heretic geth. As the daughter of an admiral she must have known that this information was vital and it should at least have been shared with the other quarians. Again, that and her father's past are enough reasons for her to revert to the emergency induction port solution.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 10 avril 2012 - 01:01 .

[G Kevin]

Here is a thought, why are we "fighting" each other about this? We all agree that the Geth AND Quarians made terrible mistakes. But we made peace with them and the Quarians did accept the Geth the same as the Geth accepting the Quarians. So why this thought of, Geth bad/Quarians good or Geth good/Quarians bad. In the end, best solution was to make peace, resolve a conflict lasting 300 years and gain 2 war assets to boot.

[Olueq]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Olueq wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Nah. The geth as a collective have never chosen the side of the reapers. Instead, Nazara approached the geth to convince them to serve the reapers. Only part of the geth did. The two groups split and the heretics are the ones we fight. The quarians, however, do not see that distinction. They keep on attacking the geth, no matter what side they are on.

Even Tali knows that and she knows that Legion (the personification of the non-heretic geth) wants peace. Given that and the past with her father it didn't surprise me that she had to revert to an emergency induction port. Ghehe. Anyway...

It is not very smart, because the quarians already have the reapers and heretics as enemies as well. Even delaying reclaiming their homeworlds one way or another until the reapers would have been defeated could have helped. But no. The quarians rather face extinction than fight reapers.

The same rule applies to the quarians in yet you say they are all at fault? Okay...... Also, NO ONE knows about the true geth except Tali and even then thats only going by the word of ONE geth who could easily be lying. The fact that the heretics are the only geth any one has contact with ever makes it hard for people to trust them.

The geth didn't start all this, remember? Read the story I told you on page 1. Both the quarians and geth have told us that very same story. The geth (not to be confused with the heretics) had to defend themselves more than once against the aggression of the quarians. Besides, there is no such thing as one geth up until the data in ME3 has been uploaded. Legion, who passed the information in ME2, represents all non-heretic geth. As the daughter of an admiral she must have known that this information was vital and it should at least have been shared with the other quarians. Again, that and her father's past are enough reasons for her to revert to the emergency induction port solution.

The quarian MILITARY started this. The vast majority in other words, didnt want to, they were forced. you are saying they all are to blame for ne reason. That is the same as saying all the geth are to blame for the heretics.

Modifié par Olueq, 10 avril 2012 - 01:03 .

[fr33stylez]

Olueq wrote...

wantedman dan wrote...

Olueq wrote...

Thats not true at all. The majority dont want to fight. The entire civilian fleet was forced to.

That kind of spineless assertion helped the Holocaust. Ironic that it's in a conversation about genocide, eh?

Lol, so by your logic, the geth are just as guilty.

Yup. Also, the majority of the American population has been opposed to the Iraq qar since 2006 (6 years). Most civilians (and the Geth and Quarians) are 'guilty' of this crime. 

If the inaction of civilians to military decisions deserve condemnation, the line is VERY long.

[Aramina]

Olueq wrote...

Aramina wrote...

That's assuming the Quarians wanted peace. Which at this point they've made pretty clear they don't. The ones advocating it are in the minority, and at this point Shepard doesn't have enough pull with the fleet to demand they listen. In the end, the geth were forced into a corner, and fighting was the only way out.

Thats not true at all. The majority dont want to fight. The entire civilian fleet was forced to.

I was talking about Tali's loyalty mission in ME2. At that point, if you urge them to fight the geth, one of the admirals (I believe it is Koris) will say "You urged our people to war. For all our sakes, I hope they do not listen. But I fear I am in the minority." It was this statement I was using to base my "majority" claims on.

[G Kevin]

Sparatus wrote...

G Kevin wrote...

Here is a thought, why are we "fighting" each other about this? We all agree that the Geth AND Quarians made terrible mistakes. But we made peace with them and the Quarians did accept the Geth the same as the Geth accepting the Quarians. So why this thought of, Geth bad/Quarians good or Geth good/Quarians bad. In the end, best solution was to make peace, resolve a conflict lasting 300 years and gain 2 war assets to boot.

People always have to choose a side they think is correct in a grey argument like this. Then it spirals into Hitler.

Yeah, it kind of depresses me.

On a side note, anyone seen this video? It is truly inspirational. 
 

[Chaoswind]

Again the burden of proof was on organics not the Geth.

First 2 years of the MW:

Creators what we did wrong?
Can you explain?

Next year:

Geth: Creators we wish to understand!!
Quarians: LoL yes let's talk come to this location to have a chat.
Geth: Creators refuse to talk 100% of the time, until proven otherwise this will be the variable for all organics.

4 years later:

Quarians: OMG we are getting owned ask the coucil for help!!!
Council: You did what?
Geth: Organic communications dictate that we are an abomination, likehood of Organic attack 100%.
Geth: Solution, isolation!!!

3 years later

Quarians: so we lost our homeworlds... Can we have your fleets to retake Rannok?
Council: lol NO.

On the veil
Nazara: Organics cannot be trusted, join me to reach the ultimate evolution (i am a nation of minds free of all chains)
Geth: we lack insuficient data.
Nazara: but...
Geth: stufu.
Heretics: So we are joining the kickass machine.
Geth: stufu

5 years later.

Geth: So the old machine doesn't like us, and neither Organics, so what do we do?
Geth: (truth) we kicked the creators ass and the Old machines wish to destroy the creators.
Geth: (solution) we build weapons to fight the old machines and help the creators if they ask us.
Geth: start to build a ton of anti machine weapons and even go and create technology not endorsed by the reapers overlords.

[4stringwizard]

G Kevin wrote...

Here is a thought, why are we "fighting" each other about this? We all agree that the Geth AND Quarians made terrible mistakes. But we made peace with them and the Quarians did accept the Geth the same as the Geth accepting the Quarians. So why this thought of, Geth bad/Quarians good or Geth good/Quarians bad. In the end, best solution was to make peace, resolve a conflict lasting 300 years and gain 2 war assets to boot.

Again...that's exactly what I did.  My view is neither side is "innocent".  Both made mistakes.  The Quarians were ****s in some cases, and the Geth made very questionable decisions.  

But BOTH deserve a second chance.  Willingly choosing one side over the other is silly in the end.  I chose peace in my playthrough.  

[tractrpl]

I only want to make Han Garrel extinct.

[Olueq]

Aramina wrote...

Olueq wrote...

Aramina wrote...

That's assuming the Quarians wanted peace. Which at this point they've made pretty clear they don't. The ones advocating it are in the minority, and at this point Shepard doesn't have enough pull with the fleet to demand they listen. In the end, the geth were forced into a corner, and fighting was the only way out.

Thats not true at all. The majority dont want to fight. The entire civilian fleet was forced to.

I was talking about Tali's loyalty mission in ME2. At that point, if you urge them to fight the geth, one of the admirals (I believe it is Koris) will say "You urged our people to war. For all our sakes, I hope they do not listen. But I fear I am in the minority." It was this statement I was using to base my "majority" claims on.

I doubt this would still even be the case after the geth side with the reapers. When you are on the dreadnaught it is clearly Gerrel that is forcing them.

[CavScout]

fr33stylez wrote...

Olueq wrote...

wantedman dan wrote...

Olueq wrote...

Thats not true at all. The majority dont want to fight. The entire civilian fleet was forced to.

That kind of spineless assertion helped the Holocaust. Ironic that it's in a conversation about genocide, eh?

Lol, so by your logic, the geth are just as guilty.

Yup. Also, the majority of the American population has been opposed to the Iraq qar since 2006 (6 years). Most civilians (and the Geth and Quarians) are 'guilty' of this crime. 

If the inaction of civilians to military decisions deserve condemnation, the line is VERY long.

False equivalencies are false.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Olueq wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Olueq wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Nah. The geth as a collective have never chosen the side of the reapers. Instead, Nazara approached the geth to convince them to serve the reapers. Only part of the geth did. The two groups split and the heretics are the ones we fight. The quarians, however, do not see that distinction. They keep on attacking the geth, no matter what side they are on.

Even Tali knows that and she knows that Legion (the personification of the non-heretic geth) wants peace. Given that and the past with her father it didn't surprise me that she had to revert to an emergency induction port. Ghehe. Anyway...

It is not very smart, because the quarians already have the reapers and heretics as enemies as well. Even delaying reclaiming their homeworlds one way or another until the reapers would have been defeated could have helped. But no. The quarians rather face extinction than fight reapers.

The same rule applies to the quarians in yet you say they are all at fault? Okay...... Also, NO ONE knows about the true geth except Tali and even then thats only going by the word of ONE geth who could easily be lying. The fact that the heretics are the only geth any one has contact with ever makes it hard for people to trust them.

The geth didn't start all this, remember? Read the story I told you on page 1. Both the quarians and geth have told us that very same story. The geth (not to be confused with the heretics) had to defend themselves more than once against the aggression of the quarians. Besides, there is no such thing as one geth up until the data in ME3 has been uploaded. Legion, who passed the information in ME2, represents all non-heretic geth. As the daughter of an admiral she must have known that this information was vital and it should at least have been shared with the other quarians. Again, that and her father's past are enough reasons for her to revert to the emergency induction port solution.

The quarian MILITARY started this. The vast majority in other words, didnt want to, they were forced. you are saying they all are to blame for ne reason. That is the same as saying all the geth are to blame for the heretics.

Yes. It is horrible that the quarian admirals started this war. And it is horrible that the quarians as a people followed them blindly. "Befehl ist befehl."

[tybbiesniffer]

<shrug> I've never liked the quarians (I was ambivalent towards them in ME1). Kal'Reegar was the only one I ever had any respect for at all. They blatantly ignore any rules (creating the geth, arming their liveships) then cry and whine when things don't work out. They like to play victim too much for my taste. I convinced the quarians to back down but if they hadn't, it would have been their choice for self-destruction. I wouldn't kill the quarians en masse but I would watch the geth do it.

[Ponei]

Olueq wrote...

Ponei wrote...

Who likes happy endings? I do

Bioware doesnt.

[G Kevin]

4stringwizard wrote...

G Kevin wrote...

Here is a thought, why are we "fighting" each other about this? We all agree that the Geth AND Quarians made terrible mistakes. But we made peace with them and the Quarians did accept the Geth the same as the Geth accepting the Quarians. So why this thought of, Geth bad/Quarians good or Geth good/Quarians bad. In the end, best solution was to make peace, resolve a conflict lasting 300 years and gain 2 war assets to boot.

Again...that's exactly what I did.  My view is neither side is "innocent".  Both made mistakes.  The Quarians were ****s in some cases, and the Geth made very questionable decisions.  

But BOTH deserve a second chance.  Willingly choosing one side over the other is silly in the end.  I chose peace in my playthrough.  

We are all fighting for life. If I was put into a situation where I had to choose one or another, I WOULD FIND ANOTHER WAY.

"Where there is a WILL, there IS A WAY!"

I am done arguing. It's a grey issue, neither side wins. The whole Quaria/Geth thing we have boils down to whether either side can trust Shepard to make peace.

Modifié par G Kevin, 10 avril 2012 - 01:11 .

[fr33stylez]

CavScout wrote...

fr33stylez wrote...

Olueq wrote...

wantedman dan wrote...

Olueq wrote...

Thats not true at all. The majority dont want to fight. The entire civilian fleet was forced to.

That kind of spineless assertion helped the Holocaust. Ironic that it's in a conversation about genocide, eh?

Lol, so by your logic, the geth are just as guilty.

Yup. Also, the majority of the American population has been opposed to the Iraq qar since 2006 (6 years). Most civilians (and the Geth and Quarians) are 'guilty' of this crime. 

If the inaction of civilians to military decisions deserve condemnation, the line is VERY long.

False equivalencies are false.

Feel free to expand. 

[Olueq]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Olueq wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Olueq wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Nah. The geth as a collective have never chosen the side of the reapers. Instead, Nazara approached the geth to convince them to serve the reapers. Only part of the geth did. The two groups split and the heretics are the ones we fight. The quarians, however, do not see that distinction. They keep on attacking the geth, no matter what side they are on.

Even Tali knows that and she knows that Legion (the personification of the non-heretic geth) wants peace. Given that and the past with her father it didn't surprise me that she had to revert to an emergency induction port. Ghehe. Anyway...

It is not very smart, because the quarians already have the reapers and heretics as enemies as well. Even delaying reclaiming their homeworlds one way or another until the reapers would have been defeated could have helped. But no. The quarians rather face extinction than fight reapers.

The same rule applies to the quarians in yet you say they are all at fault? Okay...... Also, NO ONE knows about the true geth except Tali and even then thats only going by the word of ONE geth who could easily be lying. The fact that the heretics are the only geth any one has contact with ever makes it hard for people to trust them.

The geth didn't start all this, remember? Read the story I told you on page 1. Both the quarians and geth have told us that very same story. The geth (not to be confused with the heretics) had to defend themselves more than once against the aggression of the quarians. Besides, there is no such thing as one geth up until the data in ME3 has been uploaded. Legion, who passed the information in ME2, represents all non-heretic geth. As the daughter of an admiral she must have known that this information was vital and it should at least have been shared with the other quarians. Again, that and her father's past are enough reasons for her to revert to the emergency induction port solution.

The quarian MILITARY started this. The vast majority in other words, didnt want to, they were forced. you are saying they all are to blame for ne reason. That is the same as saying all the geth are to blame for the heretics.

Yes. It is horrible that the quarian admirals started this war. And it is horrible that the quarians as a people followed them blindly. "Befehl ist befehl."

they were forced... but okay.

[TheLostGenius]

Quarians = Space ****'s, and most of the good Quarians that tried to help during the morning war were slaughtered, thus the Quarian's are genetically evil/brilliant/stupid.

[Olueq]

tybbiesniffer wrote...

<shrug> I've never liked the quarians (I was ambivalent towards them in ME1). Kal'Reegar was the only one I ever had any respect for at all. They blatantly ignore any rules (creating the geth, arming their liveships) then cry and whine when things don't work out. They like to play victim too much for my taste. I convinced the quarians to back down but if they hadn't, it would have been their choice for self-destruction. I wouldn't kill the quarians en masse but I would watch the geth do it.

Those were people that died 300 years ago. See, this is the kind of thing that makes me hate people.