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[wantedman dan]

CavScout wrote...

wantedman dan wrote...

CavScout wrote...

The irony is the defense of the Geth, the ones who committed wholesale genocide and ethnic displacement.

In this context, no, I disagree, as has already been established. You cannot blame the many for the actions of the few. That is irresponsible.

On that note, I've got some late dinner to eat with some pals.

Have fun, everyone.

You can disagree but you are wrong. The Geth killed millioins of Quarians and chased the rest off their homeworld. The Geth could have fought to leave the planet or even simply uploaded their "minds" to safer areas. They didn't have to exterminate the Quarians from the face of the planet.

PS: What do you mean you can't blame the many for the actions of the few? Did you say this?

Context, sir. You lack acknowledgement of it.

[tybbiesniffer]

Aramina wrote...

I
will admit I didn't like the batarians very much, but then all we'd
seen of them up to that point was mercs. Even so, I would have loved to
have been able to warn them. Might have gone a long way to some sort of
friendly dialogue between the two races.

Am I the only one who loved the conversation in ME3 between the human and batarian refugees?

"Nail a few Reapers for me."
"Right between the eyes, my friend."

It wasn't that I like the batarians, really.  I thought they had an interesting part to play.  I liked the animosity/rivalry between humans and batarians as a story element.

I missed that scene.  Hhmm  I guess I'll have to watch for it.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

The reason I said "Take the peace option off the table" was that not everyone got the peace option in the conversation wheel. These people, myself included, had to make a choice. Cry 'havoc!' and let slip the dogs of war! Those of us who chose the Quarians got called horrible people by about 70% of BSN, Although I did take the three renegade interrupts after Tali stabbed Legion -- it was so Shakespearean that after the first I couldn't resist. The betrayal was complete. This act of the play had to conclude with Legion dying in its full tragic fashion. Et tu Brute?

Now with Shepard and the Batarians, regardless of if you got railroaded into destroying the relay in Arrival, don't you think that Shepard should have been in a prison cell (ala Marcus Fenix in Gears 1) instead of a high rise apartment when the Reapers attacked? Or at least in accommodations fitting an accused war criminal. But I guess since Shepard was OUR accused war criminal that made all the difference, and there was the "plausible deniability" line being touted by the brass.

[Aramina]

G Kevin wrote...


I say wait until all this gets sorted out. If all goes well, it would be worth the wait.

Yeah, I'm still hoping Bioware pulls through with this. Guess we'll find out in the summer.

Anyway, time for me to sign off and get dinner. Was really nice having a civil discussion with you.

tybbiesniffer wrote...

Aramina wrote...

I
will admit I didn't like the batarians very much, but then all we'd
seen of them up to that point was mercs. Even so, I would have loved to
have been able to warn them. Might have gone a long way to some sort of
friendly dialogue between the two races.

Am I the only one who loved the conversation in ME3 between the human and batarian refugees?

"Nail a few Reapers for me."
"Right between the eyes, my friend."

It
wasn't that I like the batarians, really.  I thought they had an
interesting part to play.  I liked the animosity/rivalry between humans
and batarians as a story element.

I missed that scene.  Hhmm  I guess I'll have to watch for it.

There ya go.

Modifié par Aramina, 10 avril 2012 - 02:06 .

[tractrpl]

WarChicken78 wrote...

I love them both (Kelly does too btw - and varren)

That's why I can't even imagine playing this game without an ME2 import.
So far I could broker last second peace both times, alas I havent imported my renegade Shep, yet.

When I bought ME3, I realized I accidentally deleted all of my ME1 and ME2 saves. I. would. not. play. ME3.  I played both games, completely with every single side quest, until I finally could play ME3. By the time I started playing ME3, the ending controversy was old news.

[Crazyjeffy]

G Kevin wrote...

tybbiesniffer wrote...

Crazyjeffy wrote...

Why are people saying "the Quarians" when it's only the admiralty board in charge of stuff like that?

Gerrel is a bosh'tet
Xen is a bosh'tet
Raan is an indecisive bosh'tet

Zaal'koris and Tali are the ones with the sense and they're outnumbered 2 to 3. Those are the only quarians we get to see besides Reegar, Lia'vel, Veetor, the guy at Ken's, and the nameless extras in some scenes in ME2. And guess how big their roles were?

People keep generalizing the quarians. That's like people judging the UK based on parliament.

I agree.  But we have no choice but to generalize; our opinions are limited by our knowledge/experience.  Of all of the quarians, the only one I liked was Kal'Reegar so I can only infer that I don't like most quarians.  The quarian I know the best, Tali, I don't like at all. 

Maybe I'm using "like" in the wrong way.  I don't like quarians because I don't respect them or their culture; it's hard to like someone I can't respect.

True. This whole issue can be simplified to whether you like the Quarians/Geth. That's what saddens me.

I don't necessarily think it's about "liking" them. Well, not always anyway. It's not unhealthy to hope some people think about the ethics. I have a friend who absolutely despises Krogan (blasphemy I know) but still cured the genophage because it's wrong. I think it was Jack that said in ME2 "
Let me die as me " Heck, I hate salarians. But I don't hate Mordin or Kirrahe. 

Also, Y U NO LIKE TALI? Honestly. I'm curious. 

[Crazyjeffy]

Double Post >.>

Modifié par Crazyjeffy, 10 avril 2012 - 02:10 .

[tractrpl]

The whole thing with the consensus, every geth sharing information, none of them having individual thoughts... they're not a people. They're a bunch of robots. Literally.

Ok, ok, for me, choosing either the geth or the quarians was not an option. That's why I played ME1 and ME2, all the loyalty missions, mediated between Legion and Tali, etc.  I saw this coming back in ME2. But, what you're saying is that you chose NOT to broker peace EVEN IF YOU HAD THE OPTION TO? You're saying that you chose to destroy the geth, even though YOU COULD HAVE SAVED BOTH THE GETH AND THE QUARIANS?

[Esker02]

Crazyjeffy wrote...

Why are people saying "the Quarians" when it's only the admiralty board in charge of stuff like that?

Gerrel is a bosh'tet
Xen is a bosh'tet
Raan is an indecisive bosh'tet

Zaal'koris and Tali are the ones with the sense and they're outnumbered 2 to 3. Those are the only quarians we get to see besides Reegar, Lia'vel, Veetor, the guy at Ken's, and the nameless extras in some scenes in ME2. And guess how big their roles were?

People keep generalizing the quarians. That's like people judging the UK based on parliament.

Gerrel and Xen, other than Tali, are easily my favorite quarians. Why exactly are they vilified for desiring to get their home back? If things had gone according to plan, aka, no reaper involvement, the "war" would have been over and the galaxy would have never known it had even occurred. It's only because the geth dragged the reapers into things, rather than surrender to the quarians or attempt to broker peace after it became clear they were getting trounced, that the war dragged on and serious quarian lives were placed at risk.

I don't know... I put myself in their shoes. If Earth was lost and humanity roamed the galaxy in environmental suits and was met with discrimination and suspicion everywhere we turned, I'd have a certain degree of (understandable) fanaticism if the opportunity presented itself to reclaim Earth with near minimal losses. Which it did. And that's exactly how it would have gone, again, but for the geth's decision to find the nearest reaper recruitment center rather than attempt communication or surrender.

But whatever. I find the choice between the geth and the quarians pretty easy, but it seems most are convinced that it's a grey issue. I suppose it's a good thing they included the peace option, even if it does moot a lot of this discussion.

Modifié par Esker02, 10 avril 2012 - 02:16 .

[tybbiesniffer]

Aramina wrote...



There ya go.

Thanks!  I caught the first exchange there but missed the rest of them.  This is what I like about the whole human-batarian thing.  The animosity is there but, really, the humans and batarians have common ground that makes the relationship more interesting.

[Hospitallar]

My two cents, the reason I feel sympathetic to the Geth is because to me they're kind of like the underdogs.

In the memory codes you learn that "Geth" in the Quarian language means "Servant." They started out as servants so I was immediately bothered that the Quarians would be so willing to put down the very people they created and named "Servants." Sure, they're robots but the ME universe established them as sentient beings.

Legion, perhaps in a case of servitude as well as synthetic amorality, willingly supports the Quarian fleets in shutting down a server to save Quarian lives. This is akin to destroying a city or a Quarian live ship. Perhaps this is a case of original programming, either way, I doubt any Quarian would have been so willing to destroy a live ship in fair exchange. And remember, with each Geth program destroyed, their intelligence, and consciousness, dims.

They will have no allies nor sympathetic neighbors. Quarians, can at least get some token of sympathy from the other races.

In the end, it just astonished me how a few vocal Quarians were so adamant about destroying the Geth and nearly refused to see any other option. Lacking the option to broker peace between the two but not wanting to commit intentional genocide, I feel Shepard could have at least warned the Quarian fleet. The blindness to refuse peace in that instance is the Quarians condemning themselves.

[tybbiesniffer]

G Kevin wrote...

True. This whole issue can be simplified to whether you like the Quarians/Geth. That's what saddens me.

No argument here.  It's easier to forgive negative aspects to those we like while condemning for them in those we don't.

[tractrpl]

Esker02 wrote...

Crazyjeffy wrote...

Why are people saying "the Quarians" when it's only the admiralty board in charge of stuff like that?

Gerrel is a bosh'tet
Xen is a bosh'tet
Raan is an indecisive bosh'tet

Zaal'koris and Tali are the ones with the sense and they're outnumbered 2 to 3. Those are the only quarians we get to see besides Reegar, Lia'vel, Veetor, the guy at Ken's, and the nameless extras in some scenes in ME2. And guess how big their roles were?

People keep generalizing the quarians. That's like people judging the UK based on parliament.

Gerrel and Xen, other than Tali, are easily my favorite quarians. Why exactly are they vilified for desiring to get their home back? If things had gone according to plan, aka, no reaper involvement, the "war" would have been over and the galaxy would have never known it had even occurred. It's only because the geth dragged the reapers into things, rather than surrender to the quarians or attempt to broker peace after it became clear they were getting trounced, that the war dragged on and serious quarian lives were placed at risk.

I don't know... I put myself in their shoes. If Earth was lost and humanity roamed the galaxy in environmental suits and was met with discrimination and suspicion everywhere we turned, I'd have a certain degree of (understandable) fanaticism if the opportunity presented itself to reclaim Earth with near minimal losses. Which it did. And that's exactly how it would have gone, again, but for the geth's decision to find the nearest reaper recruitment center rather than attempt communication or surrender.

But whatever. I find the choice between the geth and the quarians pretty easy, but it seems most are convinced that its a grey issue. I suppose it's a good thing they included the peace option, even if it does moot a lot of this discussion.

I liked Garrel right up until he wanted to kill me. After that, I wanted him dead, and I would have killed him if the game gave me that option, as long as just killing Garrel doesn't result in genocide of the quarians, of course.

[flub3]

Esker02 wrote...

Crazyjeffy wrote...

Why are people saying "the Quarians" when it's only the admiralty board in charge of stuff like that?

Gerrel is a bosh'tet
Xen is a bosh'tet
Raan is an indecisive bosh'tet

Zaal'koris and Tali are the ones with the sense and they're outnumbered 2 to 3. Those are the only quarians we get to see besides Reegar, Lia'vel, Veetor, the guy at Ken's, and the nameless extras in some scenes in ME2. And guess how big their roles were?

People keep generalizing the quarians. That's like people judging the UK based on parliament.

Gerrel and Xen, other than Tali, are easily my favorite quarians. Why exactly are they vilified for desiring to get their home back? If things had gone according to plan, aka, no reaper involvement, the "war" would have been over and the galaxy would have never known it had even occurred. It's only because the geth dragged the reapers into things, rather than surrender to the quarians or attempt to broker peace after it became clear they were getting trounced, that the war dragged on and serious quarian lives were placed at risk.

I don't know... I put myself in their shoes. If Earth was lost and humanity roamed the galaxy in environmental suits and was met with discrimination and suspicion everywhere we turned, I'd have a certain degree of (understandable) fanaticism if the opportunity presented itself to reclaim Earth with near minimal losses. Which it did. And that's exactly how it would have gone, again, but for the geth's decision to find the nearest reaper recruitment center rather than attempt communication or surrender.

But whatever. I find the choice between the geth and the quarians pretty easy, but it seems most are convinced that its a grey issue. I suppose it's a good thing they included the peace option, even if it does moot a lot of this discussion.

And if you were in the Geth's position? If you take Legion to the Admiralty board, he says the the Geth would be open to peace. The Quarians refuse to believe him. Would you let you let every American be annihilated because the Native Americans want their land back? Also, you are arguing that this is the Geth's fault for not offering peace. We really have no idea if the Geth would of even been able to offer peace. The way they see it the Quarians would never even accept peace and would just backstab them. I know that if humanity was on the verge of extermination, I would of turned to the reapers if it was our only chance at survival.

[Crazyjeffy]

Esker02 wrote...

Crazyjeffy wrote...

Why are people saying "the Quarians" when it's only the admiralty board in charge of stuff like that?

Gerrel is a bosh'tet
Xen is a bosh'tet
Raan is an indecisive bosh'tet

Zaal'koris and Tali are the ones with the sense and they're outnumbered 2 to 3. Those are the only quarians we get to see besides Reegar, Lia'vel, Veetor, the guy at Ken's, and the nameless extras in some scenes in ME2. And guess how big their roles were?

People keep generalizing the quarians. That's like people judging the UK based on parliament.

Gerrel and Xen, other than Tali, are easily my favorite quarians. Why exactly are they vilified for desiring to get their home back? If things had gone according to plan, aka, no reaper involvement, the "war" would have been over and the galaxy would have never known it had even occurred. It's only because the geth dragged the reapers into things, rather than surrender to the quarians or attempt to broker peace after it became clear they were getting trounced, that the war dragged on and serious quarian lives were placed at risk.

I don't know... I put myself in their shoes. If Earth was lost and humanity roamed the galaxy in environmental suits and was met with discrimination and suspicion everywhere we turned, I'd have a certain degree of (understandable) fanaticism if the opportunity presented itself to reclaim Earth with near minimal losses. Which it did. And that's exactly how it would have gone, again, but for the geth's decision to find the nearest reaper recruitment center rather than attempt communication or surrender.

But whatever. I find the choice between the geth and the quarians pretty easy, but it seems most are convinced that its a grey issue. I suppose it's a good thing they included the peace option, even if it does moot a lot of this discussion.

Oh believe me I love the characters, too. But everything in the galaxy is about timing. I don't think they should've wasted resources fighting a war, even if they were to win. I think they would've definitely obliterated the geth if not for the reapers. And I understand that they fought so they could get a chance to be on Rannoch before the reapers killed everything. But what's the point if you're going to die soon?

tractrpl wrote...

The whole thing with the consensus, every geth sharing information, none of them having individual thoughts... they're not a people. They're a bunch of robots. Literally.

Ok, ok, for me, choosing either the geth or the quarians was not an option. That's why I played ME1 and ME2, all the loyalty missions, mediated between Legion and Tali, etc.  I saw this coming back in ME2. But, what you're saying is that you chose NOT to broker peace EVEN IF YOU HAD THE OPTION TO? You're saying that you chose to destroy the geth, even though YOU COULD HAVE SAVED BOTH THE GETH AND THE QUARIANS?

 

And heavens no. I chose peace on both of my playthroughs. But I'm saying that if peace weren't an option, siding the Quarians is an easy decision.

[wantedman dan]

tractrpl wrote...

I liked Garrel right up until he wanted to kill me. After that, I wanted him dead, and I would have killed him if the game gave me that option, as long as just killing Garrel doesn't result in genocide of the quarians, of course.

I found it perplexing as to the radical character shifts of Han'Gerrel and Zaal'Koris.

[tractrpl]

When taking back your homeworld is more important than the life of the one ally capable of ensuring your very survival, then you are one demented cookie. Garrel is now my most hated non-reaper enemy. After that one stunt, I wanted him dead more than I wanted Udina dead. You expected Udina to stab you in the back, but not Garrel.

[tybbiesniffer]

Hospitallar wrote...

My two cents, the reason I feel sympathetic to the Geth is because to me they're kind of like the underdogs.

In the memory codes you learn that "Geth" in the Quarian language means "Servant." They started out as servants so I was immediately bothered that the Quarians would be so willing to put down the very people they created and named "Servants." Sure, they're robots but the ME universe established them as sentient beings.

Legion, perhaps in a case of servitude as well as synthetic amorality, willingly supports the Quarian fleets in shutting down a server to save Quarian lives. This is akin to destroying a city or a Quarian live ship. Perhaps this is a case of original programming, either way, I doubt any Quarian would have been so willing to destroy a live ship in fair exchange. And remember, with each Geth program destroyed, their intelligence, and consciousness, dims.

They will have no allies nor sympathetic neighbors. Quarians, can at least get some token of sympathy from the other races.

In the end, it just astonished me how a few vocal Quarians were so adamant about destroying the Geth and nearly refused to see any other option. Lacking the option to broker peace between the two but not wanting to commit intentional genocide, I feel Shepard could have at least warned the Quarian fleet. The blindness to refuse peace in that instance is the Quarians condemning themselves.

Exactly.  It was the choice of the quarians (or at least their leaders) not Shepard or even Legion.

[tractrpl]

Crazyjeffy wrote...

And heavens no. I chose peace on both of my playthroughs. But I'm saying that if peace weren't an option, siding the Quarians is an easy decision.

Luckily that wasn't going to happen. I mean if there was no option, I would have stopped playing and would have saved myself from the bad ending. As it is, I only wish they let me kill Garrel.

[Crazyjeffy]

tractrpl wrote...

Crazyjeffy wrote...

And heavens no. I chose peace on both of my playthroughs. But I'm saying that if peace weren't an option, siding the Quarians is an easy decision.

Luckily that wasn't going to happen. I mean if there was no option, I would have stopped playing and would have saved myself from the bad ending. As it is, I only wish they let me kill Garrel.

And that's totally understandable. If not for Legion, I'd just see the Geth as armed toasters. I couldn't imagine a playthrough where I sold him to cerberus or if he died in the suicide mission.

And I just got past Tali: Treason in my current ME2 playthrough, and Gerrel is a totally different person. He acts like a uncle to Tali. But war changes people.

[Slash1667]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

A very small number of Geth helped the Reapers. The majority took no part. When posed with the possibility of extinction, they chose survival whatever the cost. 

Sorry to bring it up but it is appropriate. The geth did no more or less than Shepard does in the end.

I have no problem with the Geth getting aid from the Reapers. It was a common sense thing to do. The Quarians KNEW the reapers were coming and STILL attacked the Geth. Both sides have faults but I try to make peace between them and refuse to side with either.

[Esker02]

flub3 wrote...

And if you were in the Geth's position? If you take Legion to the Admiralty board, he says the the Geth would be open to peace. The Quarians refuse to believe him. Would you let you let every American be annihilated because the Native Americans want their land back? Also, you are arguing that this is the Geth's fault for not offering peace. We really have no idea if the Geth would of even been able to offer peace. The way they see it the Quarians would never even accept peace and would just backstab them. I know that if humanity was on the verge of extermination, I would of turned to the reapers if it was our only chance at survival.

The quarians know that the geth committed atrocity after atrocity, to the extent that they had to flee their home planet, in the Morning War. They know that they kill everything that attempts to approach Rannoch, and have ever since they took control of it. They know the geth were involved in the events of ME1. I think they're entitled to some skepticism, given their history.

Also, what do you mean "if the Geth would of even been able to offer peace"? Do you mean to say, whether the quarians would have accepted it? If that's the case, then they had the obligation to at least try, given that the quarians were clearly operating under the assumption peace was impossible (given their history), and it would take only a firm gesture to disprove that. Or do you mean, whether they would technically be capable of offering it? As in, their programming would disallow them from even considering as a viable option?

To that I say, you can't have your cake and eat it too. Either they are machines, pitiable perhaps, but nevertheless merely machines to be treated as simulations of life, constrained by programming like any VI. Or they are sentient, blameworthy life, in which case their "inability" to offer peace would be better characterized as a refusal.

I know that if humanity was on the verge of extinction by the turians, there are options. Surrender. Fleeing. If the reapers approached and said "hey bros, we really like this genetic diversity you got going on here. How about this, we'll kill all of you, make you a reaper, and then you can stick it to those turians?" or perhaps more analogous, "hey guys, looks like you're struggling with these turians. How about we make you all husks, control you directly, and give you a fighting chance? Oh sure, you'll be controlled by us forever and disposed of when we're done, but at least you'll have the cruel satisfaction of knowing you killed your attackers on your way out."

I, for one, would not accept such assistance. You would be trading the possibility of your death for the guarantee of your death, PLUS the chance of the attackers' death. I don't see the appeal, unless, again, you're a particularly vindictive/cruel being. (like the geth...)

Modifié par Esker02, 10 avril 2012 - 02:32 .

[tractrpl]

Tali would be the only person who would be able to stop me from killing Garrel. In real life, however, I would have asked Legion to move somewhere away from Rannoch and let the Quarians settle back in ME2, but BW decided not to have that convo option in the game.

[Taleroth]

Historically, the Geth are the bastard children of the Quarians that the Quarians chose to kill rather than properly care for. The Geth had every right to live, and every right to Rannoch that the Quarians did. But the Quarians should not be blamed for the mistakes of their forefathers. The historical context is irrelevant except in terms of learning from mistakes or concluding patterns from the data order to predict the likelihood of future outcomes.

However, continuing mistakes the Quarians perpetuated are their sins to bear. Multiple acts of aggression. The Quarians started the war needlessly. And if given an opportunity for peace, it is the Quarians who are most reluctant to stand down. Their deaths are by the own choice.

Modifié par Taleroth, 10 avril 2012 - 02:29 .

[hexediter]

They didn't just re-claim Rannoch, the first thing they did was attack the Dyson sphere the geth were constructing and then attempted to completely destory the Geth. In the quarian mind this was the only way to re-claim the home world, but they never even thought about asking for it back lol. In ME-2 Legion even talks about how the geth see themselves as caretakers of the former quarian worlds until they can be re-united.

The geth are birthed from quarians and sort of imbued with there spirit, so they represent the quarian spirit or mind. When you are alienated from mind/spirit, it can take the form of monsters (what the geth represent to many quarians and organics). Through peace you are redeaming the quarians, allowing them to re-unite with spirit, the geth accept this immediately, as soon as the quarians stand down the war is over.  The war only ever existed because of this.

Modifié par hexediter, 10 avril 2012 - 02:32 .