861 réponses à ce sujet

[Warrior Craess]

lets see.... they try Tali for treason to get her to solve a problem for them, rather than taking a reasonable approach and asking for her help. And they are perfectly willing to let her die in the attempt.

Secondly, Han'Gerel and the idiot female that wants to revert the Geth back to slavery.

[tybbiesniffer]

Sparatus wrote...

tybbiesniffer wrote...

And this doesn't bother you about the quarians?  They take newborns into battle.  The quarians put their children in this position, not the geth.  I find the geth side easier to empathize with than the quarians.  The quarian thought-processes and actions, in many ways, seem more alien and difficult to understand than that of the geth.

It does bother me. But I still can't side with the geth.

That's fair.  I just have a hard time with the quarians being viewed solely as victims.

Modifié par tybbiesniffer, 10 avril 2012 - 03:04 .

[hexediter]

Sparatus wrote...

Joeybsmooth4 wrote...

So they should die ?

Siding with the Reapers is arguably worse than death.

Really, for a race that wants to be free so bad, they sure do choose to be made slaves a lot.

True, but there are members of every organic race who have done so for very simuliar reasons, this does not make the geth uniquely evil.  It's hard to be free when you're race is completely destroyed, they judged that reaper control was preferable to non-existance.  Obviously not all of us agree with that, but the geths possible continued existance would not be the case if they had not taken this offer.

[Joeybsmooth4]

Sparatus wrote...

Joeybsmooth4 wrote...

So they should die ?

Siding with the Reapers is arguably worse than death.

Really, for a race that wants to be free so bad, they sure do choose to be made slaves a lot.

Shep sided with the Cerbrus, a group know for being "racist" and killing humans at will. This Group also kidnapped kids and did test on them . But that is ok since he is working for a greater good?

[hexediter]

Sparatus wrote...

Joeybsmooth4 wrote...

Shep sided with the Cerbrus, a group know for being "racist" and killing humans at will. This Group also kidnapped kids and did test on them . But that is ok since he is working for a greater good?

Actually, I can choose to not be a part of Cerberus, and disagree with their motives.

Well, when the plot wasn't railroading me into agreeing with them anyway.

The point is it is a simuliar choice, the geth don't want to be slaves to the the reapers but see no alternative if they want to continue to exist.  The same for shepard, he doesn't want to work for cerberus, but inorder to stop the reapers in ME2 he seems to have no alternative but to do so.

[Avalon Aurora]

The Quarians started offenses against the Geth every time except the Heretics joining Nazara. The Geth could have easily wiped out the Quarians, and probably been justified in doing so. They did not.

The Quarians even turned on their own people who tried to protect the Geth, as revealed inside the consensus.

Allying with the Reapers was a ****** move though, at least Legion was opposed to the decision.

Note: I got peace between the two, I still like the Quarians, or at least Tali and Reegar.

Modifié par Avalon Aurora, 10 avril 2012 - 03:14 .

[fr33stylez]

Joeybsmooth4 wrote...

fr33stylez wrote...

While I found the Quarians (except Tali and a few others) very annoying, justifying the Geth turning to the Reapers out of 'desperation' is ridiculous.

How many people would be fine if the Krogan turned to the Reapers for help to fight the Salarians? Hell, isn't this what Wrex essentially proposed on Vimire in ME1?

Legion of all people knew the Reapers capabilities. How could he possibly agree? It's like Shepard agreeing with Saren/Synthesis.

As the OP said, the Geth already converted to the Heretics before. And in ME3, they showed that if backed in a corner, they would sign with the most evil entity in the universe. Not really trustworthy to me.

So they should die ?

Who should die? What are you talking about?

I've already said I chose the option of 'Peace' in ME3. This thread is addressing how many seem to blame only the Quarians, when the Geth have also made huge mistakes throughout the trilogy.

[tybbiesniffer]

Calinstel wrote...

tybbiesniffer wrote...

Calinstel wrote...

Also, many users seem to brush aside the concept of quarian children. Out of a race of ~15 billion quarians, at least 2 billion were children. From teens all the way down to newborns. The quarian haters must relish the though of a geth platform stomping through a nursery.

Good night.

And this doesn't bother you about the quarians?  They take newborns into battle.  The quarians put their children in this position, not the geth.  I find the geth side easier to empathize with than the quarians.  The quarian thought-processes and actions, in many ways, seem more alien and difficult to understand than that of the geth.

Very convenient of you to drop out the middle part where I stated BOTH sides were wrong.

Not at all.  I wouldn't argue that any side is entirely right.  I wasn't disagreeing with that part.  I simply have a hard time understanding and empathisizing with the quarian actions (and, hence, I neither like nor respect them).  My point was that I don't believe if we take the quarian children into account that it reflects poorly on the geth (which your post implied) but, rather, that it reflects poorly on the quarians.  

I quoted it in part so as not to take up space with something I wasn't directly addressing.  I apologize if I offeneded.

[JesseLee202]

All the lies Legion spews makes me kill the Geth every time.

[Silvair]

4stringwizard wrote...

My apologies beforehand for the long post...

It feels like most people, if forced to choose, decided to wipe out the Quarians rather than the Geth during the Rannoch.  Which is fine and dandy by me cause it's your choice, but it's not as if it's done cause it's paragon/renegade.  The main reason given by most people seems to be:

1.  The Quarians are genocidal maniacs and had it coming.
2.  The Geth are just innocent victims in all this.  

Really?  Although I'm not very surprised since Bioware tried their darnest to paint the Geth as helpless victims in ME3, I still don't understand the amount of bias towards the Geth in this case.  First off,

1.  The Quarians weren't "genocidal maniacs".  They tried to reclaim their home world.  For crying out loud people, wouldn't you have done the same thing?  Beside, not all Quarians supported the war or the first "Morning War."  And they were attacing machines.  I repeat, MACHINES.  Whether the Geth were alive/sentient at the end is moot, but the game makes it clear that the Geth didn't achieve sentience until after they got the Reaper upgrades.  Even if they were alive/sentient, the Quarians wouldn't have known this.  For all they knew at the time, the Geth were just machines still.  Speaking of Reapers...

2.  The Geth weren't "innocent" in all this.  They sided with the Reapers not once, but TWICE over the course of the trilogy.  Yeah, the first ones to side were the "heretics", but even still, they were once true Geth.  if they could turn, why couldn't the true Geth?  At best, this shows the Geth to be untrustworthy.  As far as ME3, even if the Geth were desparate, they sided with the Reapers knowing full well what their intentions were.  Nobody is even bothered by this?  Again, this shows the Geth to be untrustworthy.  What would have stopped them from waging war against organics later to better themselves?

3.  Another pro-Geth argument I've heard is that the Geth were peaceful and let the Quarians live during the first war, when they had to chance to pursue them or wipe them out.  Well, Legion himself says the ONLY reason the Geth didn't wipe out the Quarians was because they weren't smart enough to make that decision at the time.  Even during the game, Legion basically admits to Shepard that the Geth aren't any better than organics.  (This occurs after Shepard finds out that Legion had his something from him.)  The Geth wouldn't have been more useful.  The Quarians had the largest fleet in the galaxy and the Geth were weakened if they had been destroyed rather than re-written.  

So again, I don't understand the sheer amount of bias toward the Geth in this case.  If you ask me, they were no better allies than the Quarians (maybe worse given the circumstances).  Thoughts?  

The issue comes from the fact that the games made the Quarians (both generations) out to be warmongers.

Originally, it was just a matter of Skynet style "The AI evolved and revolted."  Then we find out that the Geth never actually revolted.  They simply started becoming more advanced and aware, but otherwise content to keep serving.  The Quarians panicked at the possible outcome of revolt, and decided to start destroying the geth.  Okay, extreme, but understandable.  Then the real clincher comes from then GUNNING DOWN THEIR OWN PEOPLE.  It was after seeing their "creators" harmed that the geth started fighting back.

And at that point, the war happened, and the geth stopped fighting the moment the quarians were no longer a threat.

Literally every step of the way, the Quarians brought all their troubles on themselves.  First, their attacks on their own kind were what caused the Geth Rebellion.  Then later, during that attempted retake of Rannoch, they put themselves in more danger by forcing the geth to ally with the reapers, as well as making their liveships targets by arming them (the geth ONLY attack that which they percieve as a threat).

The entire time, barring those who followed saren, the geth ONLY followed their programming and acted in self-defense.  Granted, they've killed more people SINCE the revolt.  But ultimately, it is ENTIRELY the quarians fault.

That said, I still chose quarians over the geth because of Tali.

[DennyHoffmann]

flub3 wrote...

DennyHoffmann wrote...

Geth can't be killed, because Geth never was alive.

They are robots, intelligent or not, full evolved or not. I would never choose then over the Quarians, it's illogical to murder an entire race for the sake of machines. Doing so almost make the Reapers sound right for killing organics. And the Geth proved manytimes to be unworthy of trust, and in the end when you choose to save the Quarians Legion gives you the final proof of what the Geth really are: they are willing to kill everyone and everything the threatens their existence.

You wouldn't be willing to kill for your right to exist?

Would you kill an entire race of living beings for the sake of machines that you have no idea if they would or not turn against you just because they "feel" their existence threatened?

In one playtrough I gave them the benefit of doubt for making things right between them and the Quarians, but if I needed to make an ultimate choice I wouldn't think twice in destroying them.

Modifié par DennyHoffmann, 10 avril 2012 - 03:24 .

[Esker02]

flub3 wrote...

When I say not even having the ability to offer peace, I meant that they don't seem to have the option to engage in diplomatic relations with the Quarians. The Quarians have attacked the Geth at every avaible oppurtunity, I don't think they would be particualy open to conducting diplomacy. As to the war crimes the geth committed, I don't see any evidence that war crimes are what caused the Quarians to leave the planet... they seemed to have left because they lost the war. If the Geth chased after them and murdered them, that might have been a war crime, but they didn't.

To be honest, I'm interpolating. If you merely lost a war, how would you convince the entire remaining population of your planet to load up into ships and leave your home world? I'm imagining the circumstances that must have existed on Rannoch in order to force such a drastic measure upon the quarian people. If my country were conquered by some foreign government, conditions would still have to be pretty horrific before a TOTAL exodus of the initial population occurred. If the geth were innocently only attacking people that fired at them, or say, were part of the military, or what have you, you can bet plenty of quarians would have remained behind. The fact they ALL felt compelled enough to abandon their home planet should speak to what the geth were doing to them.

This is just how they act. They kill and kill until the threat to their existence has passed. It's why the reapers were acceptable to them, it's why they don't even consider offering peace. It's why Legion turns on good friend Shepard-Commander and tries to kill him, too, as soon as he threatens his species. They have only one law, survival, and only one solution: kill. The reapers' path of slavery is far more attractive because it is, at least, a guarantee of mere existence. The fact they lose all of their freedom is an acceptable trade. I find that degree of amorality troubling. It is not an inherent weakness in synthetic life (oh hai EDI), but it is on display with the geth at all times (with or without the reaper code, as Legion's pro-quarian reaction indicates).

I also find the fact that Legion uploaded reaper code into all of them troubling too, but that's another subject.

[fr33stylez]

hexediter wrote...

Sparatus wrote...

Joeybsmooth4 wrote...

Shep sided with the Cerbrus, a group know for being "racist" and killing humans at will. This Group also kidnapped kids and did test on them . But that is ok since he is working for a greater good?

Actually, I can choose to not be a part of Cerberus, and disagree with their motives.

Well, when the plot wasn't railroading me into agreeing with them anyway.

The point is it is a simuliar choice, the geth don't want to be slaves to the the reapers but see no alternative if they want to continue to exist.  The same for shepard, he doesn't want to work for cerberus, but inorder to stop the reapers in ME2 he seems to have no alternative but to do so.

It's not similar at all.

1) You are railroaded by the game's design to be part of Cerberus. There is no gameplay option to refuse (many people including me would have). This is distinct from the option of the Geth within the story to accept or refuse the 'aid' of the Reapers.

2) Cerberus (especially in ME2) and the Reapers are not comparable at all. You were not a slave to Cerberus, and the consequence of using Cerberus to stop the Reapers is not the annhilation of organic or synthetic races.

3) You said "the geth don't want to be slaves to the the reapers but see no alternative if they want to continue to exist." This is the exact reasoning used by Saren in ME1. I doubt you agree with this rationale.

[flub3]

DennyHoffmann wrote...

flub3 wrote...

DennyHoffmann wrote...

Geth can't be killed, because Geth never was alive.

They are robots, intelligent or not, full evolved or not. I would never choose then over the Quarians, it's illogical to murder an entire race for the sake of machines. Doing so almost make the Reapers sound right for killing organics. And the Geth proved manytimes to be unworthy of trust, and in the end when you choose to save the Quarians Legion gives you the final proof of what the Geth really are: they are willing to kill everyone and everything the threatens their existence.

You wouldn't be willing to kill for your right to exist?

Would you kill an entire race of living beings for the sake of machines that you have no idea if they would or not turn against you just because they "feel" their existance threatened?

Any race would turn against you if you threatened their existence. The Geth are no different. Don't get me wrong, they are still not exactly "good" but I don't have a problem with their motivations.

[Drumsmasher]

Because, the Quarians are f**king dumb for even attacking the geth in the first place, not to mention doing it during the reaper invasion. Seriously, once they attacked Rannoch, they almost doomed both themselves and the geth. They had bigger problems to take care of. The geth were smart enough to realise that. Remember that the Quarians created the geth in the first place, it's their fault, not the geth's fault. They handled it wrong.

Not to mention attacking the dreadought when Shep was still onboard. That almost sealed the case for me. Only because of people like Kal'Reegar and Tali did I save the Quarians, not those stupid Admirals I should've been able to shoot.

[Jestina]

Quarians are the trailer trash of the galaxy. They also got their butts kicked by the geth.

[tractrpl]

hexediter wrote...

Legion explains that at the time the war started they were in the middle of trying to complete the Dyson sphere (he describes this in me-2) which was to house the majority of geth programs and allow them to be for lack of a better term collectivly more intelligent.  The quarians feared this development and attacked destroying a huge amount of geth (programs) and severely lowering the intellegence of the geth collective.  At this point they were facing the potential destruction of all geth and lacking any other alternative they saw collusion with the reapers as the only way for there continued existance.  They could not just leave rannoch because all their programs are being housed in and around it, and are under threat of complete annilihation. 

If the quarians had you know... landed on rannoch and taken it back instead of going after the geth brain then maybe the geth would have just allowed it, but the quarians did not do that.

I was talking about the ORIGINAL geth/quarian war, the one that ended with the death of 99.99% of all quarians.

[flub3]

Esker02 wrote...

flub3 wrote...

When I say not even having the ability to offer peace, I meant that they don't seem to have the option to engage in diplomatic relations with the Quarians. The Quarians have attacked the Geth at every avaible oppurtunity, I don't think they would be particualy open to conducting diplomacy. As to the war crimes the geth committed, I don't see any evidence that war crimes are what caused the Quarians to leave the planet... they seemed to have left because they lost the war. If the Geth chased after them and murdered them, that might have been a war crime, but they didn't.

To be honest, I'm interpolating. If you merely lost a war, how would you convince the entire remaining population of your planet to load up into ships and leave your home world? I'm imagining the circumstances that must have existed on Rannoch in order to force such a drastic measure upon the quarian people. If my country were conquered by some foreign government, conditions would still have to be pretty horrific before a TOTAL exodus of the initial population occurred. If the geth were innocently only attacking people that fired at them, or say, were part of the military, or what have you, you can bet plenty of quarians would have remained behind. The fact they ALL felt compelled enough to abandon their home planet should speak to what the geth were doing to them.

This is just how they act. They kill and kill until the threat to their existence has passed. It's why the reapers were acceptable to them, it's why they don't even consider offering peace. It's why Legion turns on good friend Shepard-Commander and tries to kill him, too, as soon as he threatens his species. They have only one law, survival, and only one solution: kill. The reapers' path of slavery is far more attractive because it is, at least, a guarantee of mere existence. The fact they lose all of their freedom is an acceptable trade. I find that degree of amorality troubling. It is not an inherent weakness in synthetic life (oh hai EDI), but it is on display with the geth at all times (with or without the reaper code, as Legion's pro-quarian reaction indicates).

I also find the fact that Legion uploaded reaper code into all of them troubling too, but that's another subject.

They honestly could of left not because of what the Geth did, but because of what the Quarians feared the Geth would do. The fact that they didn't chase after the Quarians and kept the planet in liveable condition makes me think they wouldn't have killed the entire species just for the sake of it.

And in terms of Legion attack Shepard, Shepard was pretty much dooming his civilization. I would of attacked someone if they were giving the order to exterminate my species. And Legion has stated that the Geth would be open to peace. So, maybe they don't only want to kill. Again, their were keeping the planet in working condition for the return of the Quarians. I don't know if I would trade my freedom in order to keep existing, but I can't fault those who do. It is a difficult moral dilema, and the Geth choosing to live doesn't weigh heavily on me.

[lonedude73]

this thread makes my head hurt

[xMellowhype]

 What? Helping the Reapers happened after the atrocities that oprganics inflcited upon them...

[Occulo]

A geth asked "Does this unit have a soul" and then the majority of the quarian population goes gun-crazy and resorts to shooting at the geth. The geth then have no choice but to pick up guns themselves.

"Do I have a soul?"

How do you get mad at something for asking that?

[tybbiesniffer]

Calinstel wrote...

tybbiesniffer wrote...


Not at all.  I wouldn't argue that any side is entirely right.  I wasn't disagreeing with that part.  I simply have a hard time understanding and empathisizing with the quarian actions (and, hence, I neither like nor respect them).  My point was that I don't believe if we take the quarian children into account that it reflects poorly on the geth (which your post implied) but, rather, that it reflects poorly on the quarians.  

I quoted it in part so as not to take up space with something I wasn't directly addressing.  I apologize if I offeneded.

My apologies.  I have had other discussions where the reponder removes sections to change the meaning.
That said.  I thought it was more a case of desperation as the Migrant Fleet was getting old (like myself).  Gerrel, Xen and unfortunately, Raan (VERY surprised here and not in a good way) forced the issue.  Both Koris and Tali voted against it.  Not sure how that worked though.  In ME1, Tali states it takes a unanimous vote from the Admirals to overturn a ruling/force a change in plan.  Either this implies that the Migrant Fleet voted to go to war or somehow, the rules changed a bit to force a conflict. 
Be that as it may, If the military branch refuses to leave warships behind to protect the civilian fleets, the civilian fleets have very little choice but to follow the warships.
If you notice, in the Tellik system, the Migrant Fleet is in the worst possible location for making a run to the Relay.   Any ships breaking off to run could be easily picked off.  If they actually reaced the Relay, where would the go?  Being ostracized by all other races, where could a lightly gunned/armored ship flee to for safety?  No where really.  And, like I said, the entire race was becoming desperate.  If their military wing was destroyed, it would be only a matter of time before the rest of the fleet was torn apart by pirates and raiders as well as internal conflicts.  They had to support the military branch.
Of course, these are just my views and others will tear them apart.  But, as in many things, I have my beliefs and others have theirs. 

No worries.  Things don't always come out how we intend in text.  My penchant for enjoying a healthy debate is a lot less argumentative in person.

I completely agree that by the time the war started, the civilians were pretty much doomed.  How they arrived there though is where I lose the ability to fathom the quarians.  I'm not sure how that vote among the admirals went down either but the fact that that vote stood and was accepted astounds me.  I don't even have children and I can't imagine allowing someone to drag children into a war.  There's a disconnect between the actions the quarians (as a whole) take and what I would consider in a similar situation.

While I don't agree with everything the geth did (siding with the reapers, Legion hiding some of the information he does), I can at least understand their motivations and see why they did it.

I did end the war peacefully, but, if I hcouldn't have, I would have let the quarians suffer the effects of their decisions (decisions I can't grasp in the first place).

Modifié par tybbiesniffer, 10 avril 2012 - 03:56 .