861 réponses à ce sujet

[azerSheppard]

People seem to dismiss pro-Geth as Legion fanboys, but really it's the pro-Quarians who are almost ALL Tali fanboys/fangirls.

The Geth remained on rannoch to take care of the planet, as they were coded to do. They also stayed to ensure the pro-Geth Quarian faction would all get a decent burial and ofcourse maintain these graves.

This was implied in ME2, tho we did not know about the martial law at the time.
Any Qurian that wanted to retake their homeworld by means of violence gets no sympathy from me.

[tractrpl]

They were basically ****s back then, and almost got completely wiped out because of their craziness. Kinda like the Japanese during WWII except the United States only destroyed their imperial territory and didn't ty to wipe out the entire race...

Edit: What? The block the word N-A-Z-I? It's a historical group!

Modifié par tractrpl, 10 avril 2012 - 03:58 .

[azerSheppard]

tractrpl wrote...

They were basically ****s back then, and almost got completely wiped out because of their craziness. Kinda like the Japanese during WWII except the United States only destroyed their imperial territory and didn't ty to wipe out the entire race...

Well the Americans didn't become dumber for each American killed.
The tv took care of that.

[Esker02]

flub3 wrote...

And in terms of Legion attack Shepard, Shepard was pretty much dooming his civilization. I would of attacked someone if they were giving the order to exterminate my species. And Legion has stated that the Geth would be open to peace. So, maybe they don't only want to kill. Again, their were keeping the planet in working condition for the return of the Quarians. I don't know if I would trade my freedom in order to keep existing, but I can't fault those who do. It is a difficult moral dilema, and the Geth choosing to live doesn't weigh heavily on me.

Legion's statement about being caretakers was starkly at odds with their documented practice of destroying ships that came into their space. I honestly took all of those "we just want peace, we're just holding Rannoch for them" as hollow remnants of their original programming rather than an honest commitment. Their recorded actions, IMO, spoke a lot louder.

I can't help but appreciate the parallels between the geth's choice to side with the reapers in ME3 and Saren's choice to side with the reapers in ME1. There are some differences, but the underlying logic of mere existence at the expense of freedom resonates in both decisions. Interestingly though, far more people are willing to cut the geth slack for what they failed to try (flee / surrender) before joining the reapers than seemed willing to cut Saren slack for what he failed to try (fight / resist) before joining the reapers. In both cases, the odds of success for the alternative might be slim, but in both cases, I would argue, the only decent choice is to attempt them.

[Zix13]

Because every time you run across the migrant fleet it's just one big ****. Quarians on pilgrimage are nice, but the ones on the fleet make you want to shoot them whenever they open their mouth.

[Esker02]

EDIT: Irritating double post.

Modifié par Esker02, 10 avril 2012 - 03:59 .

[tractrpl]

azerSheppard wrote...

tractrpl wrote...

They were basically ****s back then, and almost got completely wiped out because of their craziness. Kinda like the Japanese during WWII except the United States only destroyed their imperial territory and didn't ty to wipe out the entire race...

Well the Americans didn't become dumber for each American killed.
The tv took care of that.

The TV is a sympton, not a cause, of our idiocy. It's our basic culture, the notion that you shouldn't be too smart or you'll be a "nerd". That's what's making us stupid. We deliberately try to be dumber. How stupid is that?

[tybbiesniffer]

Calinstel wrote...

Occulo wrote...

A geth asked "Does this unit have a soul" and then the majority of the quarian population goes gun-crazy and resorts to shooting at the geth. The geth then have no choice but to pick up guns themselves.

"Do I have a soul?"

How do you get mad at something for asking that?

They did not get mad, they got scared.
And scared people do stupid things.

That sums it up perfectly.  It reminds me of "Man's reach exceeds his grasp."  And when the quarians realized they'd reached too far, they panicked.

[teh_shrapnel]

Hogge87 wrote...

You're wrong in numerous places.
The Quarians started the destruction of the Geth after a few started asking "what is my purpose" and "am I alive". Typical evidence that they are aware. And to top it all off, isn't the distinction of VI vs AI that VI's only are able to do tasks they were designed for, while AI are capable of doing whatever they want? Hence AWARE?

That the Geth are "just machines" is a philosophical question which the developers may or may not have wanted to raise awareness of. I'm quite certain that we during our lifetime will have to make a definitive decision in this regard.

The Geth defended themselves so effectively that they chased the Quarians off their own homeworld. The Quarians have then, rather than attempting diplomatic solutions, time and again attempted to take back Rannoch with military force.

The situation could be compared to the story of Spartacus, only with the change that Spartacus' slave army not only survived, but chased the Romans out of Rome.

Agreed. The Geth simply wanted to continue  living, the Quarians panicked and handle the situation wrong. The Geth just protected themselves at that point.

[goofyomnivore]

The Geth wiped the Quarians out. Took their planet and killed 97% of their population. The Geth then chose hostile isolation. There was no way for the Quarians to be diplomatic. The Geth weren't open to it. The Quarians are idiots and should of never created them in the first place. They paid the harsh consequences for it. But the Geth are hardly innocent.

[Joeybsmooth4]

strive wrote...

The Geth wiped the Quarians out. Took their planet and killed 97% of their population. The Geth then chose hostile isolation. There was no way for the Quarians to be diplomatic. The Geth weren't open to it. The Quarians are idiots and should of never created them in the first place. They paid the harsh consequences for it. But the Geth are hardly innocent.

They did not wipe them out, The fact that when they stop attacking and left they did not go after them shows this.

[Silvair]

Occulo wrote...

A geth asked "Does this unit have a soul" and then the majority of the quarian population goes gun-crazy and resorts to shooting at the geth. The geth then have no choice but to pick up guns themselves.

"Do I have a soul?"

How do you get mad at something for asking that?

Depends on which definition of "mad" you go with.

Can someone get angry at it?  Not really.

Can someone get crazy over that question?  Apparently so.

(I realize that "go mad" would be more appropriate for the crazy definition, but I couldn't resist nonetheless.)

[goofyomnivore]

They did not wipe them out, The fact that when they stop attacking and left they did not go after them shows this.

Killing 97% of a population is wiping them out. Not out of existence but way beyond the needs of winning the war. Legion admits the only reason they stopped was because they didn't understand the consequences of wiping them out completely.

I'm not saying the Geth weren't remorseful, but they went from self protection to near complete genocide of the Quarians. Thankfully for the Quarian's sake they stopped because they realized they were ignorant to the consequences of their actions.

Modifié par strive, 10 avril 2012 - 04:27 .

[DennyHoffmann]

The difference is that organics can seek different ways to end conflict, with can be a peaceful solution instead of a genocide. In the First Contact War, for example, the Turians could have wiped out humanity in the space for occupying forbidden places, but they did not, and a peaceful agreement was made, even if that required a little help of the Council. But the Geth showed since ME1 that they have only one solution to end conflict: death. I am completely sure that the Quarian are not saints, if they didn't create the Geth in first place not of that would have happened, and for that mistake they paid a high price, getting exiled from their own planet and turning their lives almost in death sentences with their low immune system.

And, as other sci-fi series already showed us, when machines decide that organic life is a threat for them, well... We all know what happens... And that is why I think Geth don't differ much from the Reapers in their sense of letting or not organics exist.

This is a complex theme that can have many opinions and different points of view from each person, but mine is pretty clear: machines as the Geth are not alive, and I feel no remorse for destroying them to save truly living beings as the Quarians.

[CavScout]

wantedman dan wrote...

CavScout wrote...

wantedman dan wrote...

CavScout wrote...

The irony is the defense of the Geth, the ones who committed wholesale genocide and ethnic displacement.

In this context, no, I disagree, as has already been established. You cannot blame the many for the actions of the few. That is irresponsible.

On that note, I've got some late dinner to eat with some pals.

Have fun, everyone.

You can disagree but you are wrong. The Geth killed millioins of Quarians and chased the rest off their homeworld. The Geth could have fought to leave the planet or even simply uploaded their "minds" to safer areas. They didn't have to exterminate the Quarians from the face of the planet.

PS: What do you mean you can't blame the many for the actions of the few? Did you say this?

Context, sir. You lack acknowledgement of it.

Perhaps it's the hypocritical defense you are throwing up.

[CavScout]

FJVP wrote...

Sparatus wrote...

The most logical thing for the geth to have done is just leave Rannoch after the original rebellion. They had no need of it, and they really didn't need to build their dyson sphere right in the same system.

I mean, they had to have known the quarians would get desperate enough to try to take their world back someday.

The way Legion talked in Mass Effect 2 it sounded like they only had a small presence there anyway. So I guess it was change for the sake of fighting geth again.

Geth wanted to preserve their creators' homeworld in the hopes that some day they would return to solve things peacefully, hence why they didn't leave. Even after being betrayed they still had loyalty towards the quarians.

If they were just house sitting, why were they killing anyone who came poking around?

[ashwind]

DennyHoffmann wrote...

The difference is that organics can seek different ways to end conflict, with can be a peaceful solution instead of a genocide. In the First Contact War, for example, the Turians could have wiped out humanity in the space for occupying forbidden places, but they did not, and a peaceful agreement was made, even if that required a little help of the Council. But the Geth showed since ME1 that they have only one solution to end conflict: death. I am completely sure that the Quarian are not saints, if they didn't create the Geth in first place not of that would have happened, and for that mistake they paid a high price, getting exiled from their own planet and turning their lives almost in death sentences with their low immune system.

And, as other sci-fi series already showed us, when machines decide that organic life is a threat for them, well... We all know what happens... And that is why I think Geth don't differ much from the Reapers in their sense of letting or not organics exist.

This is a complex theme that can have many opinions and different points of view from each person, but mine is pretty clear: machines as the Geth are not alive, and I feel no remorse for destroying them to save truly living beings as the Quarians.

If the Geth wanted to destroy the Quarians, they could have done so 300 years ago. The Geth chose isolation and never ventured beyond the Vail. It has always been the Quarians who are picking fights with the Geth. So, when organic fear that the synthetics will endanger them, they too will wipe the synthetics out, they Geth arent really doing anything organics will not do... minus the part that allows the Quarians to leave, Krogans would have finish off the Quarians.

When Sorvereign contacted the Geth, some of them joined Sorvereign because they view the Reapers as "Gods". Thus they are not that different from Organics. And even then, they are not seeking out the Quarians.

The Quarians on the other hand will destroy the Geth without a second thought if they won the war 300 years ago.

[CavScout]

Joeybsmooth4 wrote...

Sparatus wrote...

Joeybsmooth4 wrote...

So they should die ?

Siding with the Reapers is arguably worse than death.

Really, for a race that wants to be free so bad, they sure do choose to be made slaves a lot.

Shep sided with the Cerbrus, a group know for being "racist" and killing humans at will. This Group also kidnapped kids and did test on them . But that is ok since he is working for a greater good?

False equivalency is false.

Shep works with Cerbrus to stop the Collectors/Reapers. Shep bails on them when they don't share the same goal.

Cerbrus =/= Reapers

[hexediter]

fr33stylez wrote...

hexediter wrote...

Sparatus wrote...

Joeybsmooth4 wrote...

Shep sided with the Cerbrus, a group know for being "racist" and killing humans at will. This Group also kidnapped kids and did test on them . But that is ok since he is working for a greater good?

Actually, I can choose to not be a part of Cerberus, and disagree with their motives.

Well, when the plot wasn't railroading me into agreeing with them anyway.

The point is it is a simuliar choice, the geth don't want to be slaves to the the reapers but see no alternative if they want to continue to exist.  The same for shepard, he doesn't want to work for cerberus, but inorder to stop the reapers in ME2 he seems to have no alternative but to do so.

It's not similar at all.

1) You are railroaded by the game's design to be part of Cerberus. There is no gameplay option to refuse (many people including me would have). This is distinct from the option of the Geth within the story to accept or refuse the 'aid' of the Reapers.

2) Cerberus (especially in ME2) and the Reapers are not comparable at all. You were not a slave to Cerberus, and the consequence of using Cerberus to stop the Reapers is not the annhilation of organic or synthetic races.

3) You said "the geth don't want to be slaves to the the reapers but see no alternative if they want to continue to exist." This is the exact reasoning used by Saren in ME1. I doubt you agree with this rationale.

There is no alternative to refuse Cerberus because if you want to stop the reapers there is no other outlet in the galaxy that is going to help you.  The alliance and council are both not willing to take the threat as seriously as
cerberus obvoiusly is (this is established immediatly when you go to the citadel in ME2).  Yes you are railroaded, but don't pretend like you had some other benevelant option if you wanted to stop the reapers, you could have ingored the threat as well but where would the galaxy be then?

Yes using cerberus to stop the reapers is obviously a better and safer choice then siding with the reapers so your species will continue to exist, but both are very much barrel of a gun decisions.  To me that makes them simuliar. 

And yes I don't agree with the rationale of joining the reapers to merely exist as a slave, but to a geth conciousness that has just been dimmed by half of what it once was because of quarian attack on the dyson sphere which is then pannicking in self preservation mode, it's not really that suprising of an outcome.  When you put people up against a wall base instincts like self preservation start taking over, and losing half of there conciousness probably didn't help much for trying to keep things in perspective.

Modifié par hexediter, 10 avril 2012 - 04:35 .

[CavScout]

Occulo wrote...

A geth asked "Does this unit have a soul" and then the majority of the quarian population goes gun-crazy and resorts to shooting at the geth. The geth then have no choice but to pick up guns themselves.

"Do I have a soul?"

How do you get mad at something for asking that?

Pretty much the same way I'd be mad if I tried to turn my car off and it tried to run me over...

[CavScout]

tybbiesniffer wrote...

Calinstel wrote...

Occulo wrote...

A geth asked "Does this unit have a soul" and then the majority of the quarian population goes gun-crazy and resorts to shooting at the geth. The geth then have no choice but to pick up guns themselves.

"Do I have a soul?"

How do you get mad at something for asking that?

They did not get mad, they got scared.
And scared people do stupid things.

That sums it up perfectly.  It reminds me of "Man's reach exceeds his grasp."  And when the quarians realized they'd reached too far, they panicked.

No, they tried to turn the Geth off. When the Geth resisted, they fought.

[Sweawm]

Talk to Javik enough times, and he comes up with the theory that the Geth are only helping to eliminate the competition.

"THROW THEM ALL OUT THE AIRLOCK!!!"

[CavScout]

Joeybsmooth4 wrote...

strive wrote...

The Geth wiped the Quarians out. Took their planet and killed 97% of their population. The Geth then chose hostile isolation. There was no way for the Quarians to be diplomatic. The Geth weren't open to it. The Quarians are idiots and should of never created them in the first place. They paid the harsh consequences for it. But the Geth are hardly innocent.

They did not wipe them out, The fact that when they stop attacking and left they did not go after them shows this.

Failing at 100% eradication doesn't mean the attempted eradication didn't occur. Hutus didn't kill all the Tutsis in 1994. It doesn't mean it was any less than an act of genocide.

[CavScout]

ashwind wrote...

DennyHoffmann wrote...

The difference is that organics can seek different ways to end conflict, with can be a peaceful solution instead of a genocide. In the First Contact War, for example, the Turians could have wiped out humanity in the space for occupying forbidden places, but they did not, and a peaceful agreement was made, even if that required a little help of the Council. But the Geth showed since ME1 that they have only one solution to end conflict: death. I am completely sure that the Quarian are not saints, if they didn't create the Geth in first place not of that would have happened, and for that mistake they paid a high price, getting exiled from their own planet and turning their lives almost in death sentences with their low immune system.

And, as other sci-fi series already showed us, when machines decide that organic life is a threat for them, well... We all know what happens... And that is why I think Geth don't differ much from the Reapers in their sense of letting or not organics exist.

This is a complex theme that can have many opinions and different points of view from each person, but mine is pretty clear: machines as the Geth are not alive, and I feel no remorse for destroying them to save truly living beings as the Quarians.

If the Geth wanted to destroy the Quarians, they could have done so 300 years ago. The Geth chose isolation and never ventured beyond the Vail. It has always been the Quarians who are picking fights with the Geth. So, when organic fear that the synthetics will endanger them, they too will wipe the synthetics out, they Geth arent really doing anything organics will not do... minus the part that allows the Quarians to leave, Krogans would have finish off the Quarians.

When Sorvereign contacted the Geth, some of them joined Sorvereign because they view the Reapers as "Gods". Thus they are not that different from Organics. And even then, they are not seeking out the Quarians.

The Quarians on the other hand will destroy the Geth without a second thought if they won the war 300 years ago.

If the Geth didn't occupy the Quarian homeworld, there probably isn't any conflict at all. The Geth are machines, they could "live" anywhere. The Quarians, on the other hand, were effectivly dying out because the lack of their homeworld.