861 réponses à ce sujet

[justafan]

KingZayd wrote...

136th wrote...

Edolix wrote...

I am genuinly shocked by the amount of Geth support. Seriously.

They are trying to play the devil's advocate by siding with the geth, for them is better to be "original"
 than to be rational.

and what "Rational" basis do you have for supporting the Quarians? They just keep making stupid mistakes and starting wars they can't win.

In all fairness, the Quarians would have won the war without the reaper's interference.  There are plenty of reasons why the war was rational though, namely that the geth are all presumed to be reaper allies in the first place (the "peaceful geth" are known to all of 30 people in the galaxy).  Both sides were hugely at fault, the Quarians for starting the war, and the geth for never showing that peace was possible.

[Drummernate]

136th wrote...

The geth are selfish, cowards who only care for themselves.

Here is my take on the whole thing...:


"Oh lets make servants/slaves and then kill them when they rebel."

-"Lets fight back!"

"Okay well then we are going to start killing you all!"

-"LolNo lets go get revenge!"

"We are getting are asses handed to us Shepard... help us!"

-"Too late..."

"Nooooooooooooooooooooooooo! *Shepard comes*"

-"Oh crap.... need Reapers...."

"Not today! I am here to save you both!"

-"Sorry, need to chose one... (I'm lying... I can upload the code without dying! I just don't wanna see the endings!)"

"Ummm okay.... Geth, you win!"

-"*Dies*..."

[Shallyah]

KingZayd wrote...

And why wouldn't Legion try to kill the man who is dooming his species? How is that unreasonable?

Because it's what Shepard chose. I personally couldn't take any other direction than brokering peace between the two, it would feel morally wrong to annihilate one or the other, but Tali accepts Shepard's decission, whether it goes her way or not. Geth are selfish, cold software with the only purpose of prevailing, without heart or spirit. Legion embodies the Geth in attempting to murder Shepard at the one time he took a decission that didn't really go their way. (Because yeah, I don't believe Legion was just airing him off by hanging him off the cliff)

Modifié par Shallyah, 23 avril 2012 - 01:08 .

[Averdi]

136th wrote...

The Geth stood by and did nothing as the Heretics left and joined the reapers in the war against all organic life.

Let's keep this condemnation in mind when we think about how no organic race did, or would, intervene when the quarians went back to war with the geth, fully intending to destroy or enslave them.

They made no attempt to make peace with their own creators, even before the Quarians attempt to retake their world.

They let them go, and made no effort to pursue the migrant fleet, despite it's potential threat against them.  Tali was aware, from Legion, that the geth purported no interest in further conflict and were open to peace.  The other admirals ignored or disbelieved her.  The geth certainly made more efforts towards peace than the quarians did, but it takes two to tango.

The Geth forfeited their sentience to the reapers in ME3; they could have exiled themselves to some other system, but instead chose to help destroy every race in the galaxy even if it meant they lose of their free will.

One can't forfeit sentience.  They got in too deep with the reapers, certainly, but they're no more guilty of rationalizing immoral choices than the turians and salarians and asari were with the genophage, or they plus the krogan were with their war against the rachni.  After all, "That was necessary."  The quarians were prepared to commit genocide based simply on the potential of the geth rising as a threat.  Priciples are hard to strictly maintain in the face of annihilation.  The geth failed the test and chose dishonorable survival , but they're not unique in that.

Hell, exiling the Quarians was just a slow genocide; the Quarians would have died out within a few generations.

Obviously not.

[Drummernate]

justafan wrote...

In all fairness, the Quarians would have won the war without the reaper's interference.  There are plenty of reasons why the war was rational though, namely that the geth are all presumed to be reaper allies in the first place (the "peaceful geth" are known to all of 30 people in the galaxy).  Both sides were hugely at fault, the Quarians for starting the war, and the geth for never showing that peace was possible.

Really?

The whole entire Quarian fleet was shooting at ONE Geth dreadnaught.

Only 1 shot damaged anything, and only a small portion of the ship.

[4stringwizard]

MisterJB wrote...

4stringwizard wrote...
2.  Nothing the Quarians did justifies the Geth siding with the Reapers.  The Geth knew what the Reapers' goal was - the extermination of all major organic races.  They didn't have to side with them, but they did.  At best, it shows the Geth to be untrustworthy.  

Do you expect an entire species to choose to die for a galaxy that has shown nothing but hostility towards them?

if the alternative is siding with a genocidal force that will also wipe out entire species, and ultimately the Geth as well, then yes.  

But they didn't have to die.  They could have at least fled.  They could have tried harder to communicate with the Quarians beforehand and tell them they wanted peace.  But they didn't.  They chose to side with the enemy.  Sorry, not excusable.  

[4stringwizard]

Drummernate wrote...

justafan wrote...

In all fairness, the Quarians would have won the war without the reaper's interference.  There are plenty of reasons why the war was rational though, namely that the geth are all presumed to be reaper allies in the first place (the "peaceful geth" are known to all of 30 people in the galaxy).  Both sides were hugely at fault, the Quarians for starting the war, and the geth for never showing that peace was possible.

Really?

The whole entire Quarian fleet was shooting at ONE Geth dreadnaught.

Only 1 shot damaged anything, and only a small portion of the ship.

If you'd paid any attention to the game, you'd know that they say the Geth would have been beaten.  Only Reaper intervention saved them. 

[sistersafetypin]

The Quarians started the war and got trigger happy when the Geth started to evolve. After the Quarians left, the Geth stopped attacking.

Enter the Reapers. The Geth have a split in the consensus. Then we meet Legion. We get to actually enter the consensus and see how things actually happened vs what the Quarians tell you happened.

The geth didn't randomly go rogue, they were pushed there. That being said, I always save both but only because I was unwilling to doom an entire race for what their ancestors did

[KingZayd]

4stringwizard wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

1. Both quarian-geth wars have been started by the quarians. The Quarian homeworld is also the Geth homeworld. The Geth won in in that first war the Quarians started. The Quarians still refused to accept the legitimacy of synthetic life after all this time. The game makes clear that the geth didn't have INDIVIDUAL sentience at the time. In groups they definitely were sentient.

2. That second time? The Quarians forced them to either side with the reapers or die. It's an understandable choice. If the Quarians can create reaper allies once with their stupidity, how can yu trust them not to do it again? The Quarians have displayed an inability to learn from their mistakes.

I don't think the Quarians should be exterminated (Except Gerrel), but if it comes to a choice between them and the Geth, then I'm afraid the Geth win. The only reason I had to come and make this decision was because of the Quarian warmongering. They bring it on themselves.

1.  That doesn't excuse the Geth killing off 99% of the Quarian population.  And the game makes it clear they would have exterminated the Quarians if they had been intelligent enough to make that decision.  

2.  Nothing the Quarians did justifies the Geth siding with the Reapers.  The Geth knew what the Reapers' goal was - the extermination of all major organic races.  They didn't have to side with them, but they did.  At best, it shows the Geth to be untrustworthy.  

Bioware really tried to shove the Geth sympathy down our throats.  It seems to have worked for a lot of people. 

1. The Quarians would have killed 100%. Today, the Quarians would have still killed 100% of the Geth. These Geth were keeping to themselves.
It suggests that both the Quarians and the Geth are pretty ruthless when it comes to war. If this is your reasoning, then we should just nuke Rannoch and kill them all.

2. The Quarians would have done exactly the same thing if the Reapers were intent on exterminating synthetic races instead.
Besides, why care about a galaxy that obviously doesn't want you in it? It's not the nicest of moves (Legion should have called me.. I would have killed the Quarians for him if they refused to make peace), but still: it's understandable. Nobody wants to be annhilated.

[KingZayd]

justafan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

136th wrote...

Edolix wrote...

I am genuinly shocked by the amount of Geth support. Seriously.

They are trying to play the devil's advocate by siding with the geth, for them is better to be "original"
 than to be rational.

and what "Rational" basis do you have for supporting the Quarians? They just keep making stupid mistakes and starting wars they can't win.

In all fairness, the Quarians would have won the war without the reaper's interference.  There are plenty of reasons why the war was rational though, namely that the geth are all presumed to be reaper allies in the first place (the "peaceful geth" are known to all of 30 people in the galaxy).  Both sides were hugely at fault, the Quarians for starting the war, and the geth for never showing that peace was possible.

I brought Legion onto the the Quarian aboard the migrant fleet. The existence of the peaceful geth is no secret by now. I told them not to start that damn war.

[Drummernate]

4stringwizard wrote...

Drummernate wrote...

justafan wrote...

In all fairness, the Quarians would have won the war without the reaper's interference.  There are plenty of reasons why the war was rational though, namely that the geth are all presumed to be reaper allies in the first place (the "peaceful geth" are known to all of 30 people in the galaxy).  Both sides were hugely at fault, the Quarians for starting the war, and the geth for never showing that peace was possible.

Really?

The whole entire Quarian fleet was shooting at ONE Geth dreadnaught.

Only 1 shot damaged anything, and only a small portion of the ship.

If you'd paid any attention to the game, you'd know that they say the Geth would have been beaten.  Only Reaper intervention saved them. 

On the 5th playthrough of Insanity now...

Obviously I know my way around the story...

The Geth would obviously have a chance of winning, their tech is about 10x as advanced as the Quarians. They just were not willing to risk losing at all because that was their last major stronghold and where the majority of their servers were.

[Averdi]

justafan wrote...

There are plenty of reasons why the war was rational though, namely that the geth are all presumed to be reaper allies in the first place (the "peaceful geth" are known to all of 30 people in the galaxy).

Quarian misperceptions of the geth aren't the geth's fault.  The quarians had, via Tali, knowledge regarding the truth behind the level of geth involvement with the reapers.  Ignoring that based upon (incorrect) prejudice and fear pushes the bounds of rationality.

Both sides were hugely at fault, the Quarians for starting the war, and the geth for never showing that peace was possible.

How did the geth never show that peace was possible?  Tali again should have conveyed at least the posibility.  Why is it the geth's responsiblity to seek reapproachment after they were the assaulted party in the first war?

[KingZayd]

Shallyah wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

And why wouldn't Legion try to kill the man who is dooming his species? How is that unreasonable?

Because it's what Shepard chose. I personally couldn't take any other direction than brokering peace between the two, it would feel morally wrong to annihilate one or the other, but Tali accepts Shepard's decission, whether it goes her way or not. Geth are selfish, cold software with the only purpose of prevailing, without heart or spirit. Legion embodies the Geth in attempting to murder Shepard at the one time he took a decission that didn't really go their way. (Because yeah, I don't believe Legion was just airing him off by hanging him off the cliff)

I brought peace too.
Tali shouldn't accept the slaughtering of her race and she knows it (that's why she kills herself. regret for not trying to do something). Legion has it right.. Shepard doesn't have the right to decide the fate of his race. It's not his fault Tali is a scared little girl (as much as I like her)

[justafan]

Drummernate wrote...

justafan wrote...

In all fairness, the Quarians would have won the war without the reaper's interference.  There are plenty of reasons why the war was rational though, namely that the geth are all presumed to be reaper allies in the first place (the "peaceful geth" are known to all of 30 people in the galaxy).  Both sides were hugely at fault, the Quarians for starting the war, and the geth for never showing that peace was possible.

Really?

The whole entire Quarian fleet was shooting at ONE Geth dreadnaught.

Only 1 shot damaged anything, and only a small portion of the ship.

Tikkun was only attacked after defeating the geth in 4 separate systems.  Admiral Xen's countermeasures made sure of that.  The Geth were close to losing, and that is why they chose to join the reapers.  If you recall, when you side with the Quarians, the geth are not shut down, they are simply at standard intelligence and the Quarian fleet wipes the floor with them.  The geth can ONLY win with the reaper upgrades.  

If the geth joined he reapers for any reason other than desperation, as you suggest, there should be no forgiveness.  As is, both sides are at fault, and therefore both side deserve a second chance.

[4stringwizard]

KingZayd wrote...

1. The Quarians would have killed 100%. Today, the Quarians would have still killed 100% of the Geth. These Geth were keeping to themselves.
It suggests that both the Quarians and the Geth are pretty ruthless when it comes to war. If this is your reasoning, then we should just nuke Rannoch and kill them all.

2. The Quarians would have done exactly the same thing if the Reapers were intent on exterminating synthetic races instead.
Besides, why care about a galaxy that obviously doesn't want you in it? It's not the nicest of moves (Legion should have called me.. I would have killed the Quarians for him if they refused to make peace), but still: it's understandable. Nobody wants to be annhilated.

1.  Well, the Geth were machines.  Even if you want to say they were "alive", they weren't truly until the Reaper upgrades came into play.  Again, the Geth would have exterminated the Quarians entirely too.  And they do in ME3 if you side with them.  So in reality, the Geth are just as brutal and bloodthirsty as you claim the Quarians are.  The facts speak for themselves. 

2. Really?  Would they?  You don't know that, your'e just conjecturing based on your own opinion.  And even still, you're dealing with "what if's".  I'm going by what happened.  The Geth sided with the Reapers not once, but TWICE.  If this were real life, then I wouldn't have trusted them one bit.  It's kind of amusing though how you say "nobody wants to be annhilated", yet you have no problem committing genocide against the Quarians. 

Modifié par 4stringwizard, 23 avril 2012 - 01:18 .

[MisterJB]

4stringwizard wrote...
if the alternative is siding with a genocidal force that will also wipe out entire species, and ultimately the Geth as well, then yes.

...no.
You want them to die for their enemies? Submission IS preferable to extinction.

But they didn't have to die.  They could have at least fled. 

Flee? To where? EDI mentions this, no organic species would have accepted the geth. There was nowhere they could turn to besides the Reapers.

They could have tried harder to communicate with the Quarians beforehand and tell them they wanted peace.

Or the quarians could have attempted to communicate themselves instead of starting another war.

[Shallyah]

As said - Bioware overdid it when trying to get players to sympathize with the Geth after they had been the main enemy in previous games. Han'Gerrel was also ridiculously overdone, he wasn't that much of a blind zealot in the the previous games. And the Geth consensus part is just laughable. People assume what they see as the only truth, when you're obviously travelling through an environment that can be easily manipulated so you see what they want you to see. Even in the hypothetical case that what you see isn't manipulated, the people of the present shouldn't be held accountable for the what it was done 300 years ago. I live in Spain and I sure don't have anything to do with the Inquisition. I assure you nobody here burns or torture people to death in public nowadays. 

In the end it doesn't matter. Destroy ending (with 5000+ EMS - aka the best ending) puts everything where it belongs.

Modifié par Shallyah, 23 avril 2012 - 01:18 .

[4stringwizard]

Drummernate wrote...


On the 5th playthrough of Insanity now...

Obviously I know my way around the story...

---

Then it's truly amazing that you still found a way to miss that detail.  

Modifié par 4stringwizard, 23 avril 2012 - 01:14 .

[4stringwizard]

MisterJB wrote...

4stringwizard wrote...
if the alternative is siding with a genocidal force that will also wipe out entire species, and ultimately the Geth as well, then yes.

...no.
You want them to die for their enemies? Submission IS preferable to extinction.

But they didn't have to die.  They could have at least fled. 

Flee? To where? EDI mentions this, no organic species would have accepted the geth. There was nowhere they could turn to besides the Reapers.

They could have tried harder to communicate with the Quarians beforehand and tell them they wanted peace.

Or the quarians could have attempted to communicate themselves instead of starting another war.

1.  Submission IS preferable to extinction?  That's exactly what Saren though.  You would make a great husk.  
2.  There is plenty of space in the galaxy.  The Geth also had a mobile fleet.  You can't tell me they couldn't have at least found a system to remain in temporarily until things were sorted out.  
3.  The Geth destroyed every ship that entered the veil.  Yes, even the true Geth.  The heretics sided with the Reapers and had a hand in murdering innocent lives.  The Quarians didn't exactly have a reason to trust the Geth were open to negotiation.  

[KingZayd]

4stringwizard wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

1. The Quarians would have killed 100%. Today, the Quarians would have still killed 100% of the Geth. These Geth were keeping to themselves.
It suggests that both the Quarians and the Geth are pretty ruthless when it comes to war. If this is your reasoning, then we should just nuke Rannoch and kill them all.

2. The Quarians would have done exactly the same thing if the Reapers were intent on exterminating synthetic races instead.
Besides, why care about a galaxy that obviously doesn't want you in it? It's not the nicest of moves (Legion should have called me.. I would have killed the Quarians for him if they refused to make peace), but still: it's understandable. Nobody wants to be annhilated.

1.  Well, the Geth were machines.  Even if you want to say they were "alive", they weren't truly until the Reaper upgrades came into play.  Again, the Geth would have exterminated the Quarians entirely too.  And they do in ME3.  So in reality, the Geth are just as brutal and bloodthirsty as you claim the Quarians are.  The facts speak for themselves. 

2. Really?  Would they?  You don't know that, your'e just conjecturing based on your own opinion.  And even still, you're dealing with "what if's".  I'm going by what happened.  The Geth sided with the Reapers not once, but TWICE.  If this were real life, then I wouldn't have trusted them one bit.  It's kind of amusing though how you say "nobody wants to be annhilated", yet you have no problem committing genocide against the Quarians. 

1. If the Geth were just machines, you can't hold them morally responsible. But i don't think they were. Really? Legion lowered the shields of the dreadnought as a show of good faith, and the Quarians attacked.. WITH ME ON THE DAMN SHIP!  But yeah i said in my earlier point 1, that clearly both sides were ruthless when it came to war. I also said, that if this counts against the Geth, it counts against the Quarians too. If we use this reasoning to decide, we should nuke the planet and kill them both.

2. Yes, they don't consider synthetics to be alive at all. Did you not speak to them? DId you not pay attention? They consider Legion to be just as much a person as a pistol. I had a problem with commiting genocide against the Quarians, which is why i made peace. But if i had to choose, i would choose to save the Geth. The Quarians brought it upon themselves.

[Drummernate]

4stringwizard wrote...

Drummernate wrote...


On the 5th playthrough of Insanity now...

Obviously I know my way around the story...

---

Then it's truly amazing that you still found a way to miss that detail.  

Sounds like you didn't listen to Legion....

2:09 is where you need to listen.

They did not "Need" to side with them.

They were just scared that they might be totally wiped out because they began bombing their mainframes.

Modifié par Drummernate, 23 avril 2012 - 01:22 .

[KingZayd]

4stringwizard wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

4stringwizard wrote...
if the alternative is siding with a genocidal force that will also wipe out entire species, and ultimately the Geth as well, then yes.

...no.
You want them to die for their enemies? Submission IS preferable to extinction.

But they didn't have to die.  They could have at least fled. 

Flee? To where? EDI mentions this, no organic species would have accepted the geth. There was nowhere they could turn to besides the Reapers.

They could have tried harder to communicate with the Quarians beforehand and tell them they wanted peace.

Or the quarians could have attempted to communicate themselves instead of starting another war.

1.  Submission IS preferable to extinction?  That's exactly what Saren though.  You would make a great husk.  
2.  There is plenty of space in the galaxy.  The Geth also had a mobile fleet.  You can't tell me they couldn't have at least found a system to remain in temporarily until things were sorted out.  
3.  The Geth destroyed every ship that entered the veil.  Yes, even the true Geth.  The heretics sided with the Reapers and had a hand in murdering innocent lives.  The Quarians didn't exactly have a reason to trust the Geth were open to negotiation.  

2. Why do the Geth have to relocate? They didn't start the war, but they did win it
3. Their territory. Nobody has a RIGHT to enter their territory. The Quarians would have shot down any Geth ships that approached them.

[justafan]

Averdi wrote...

justafan wrote...

There are plenty of reasons why the war was rational though, namely that the geth are all presumed to be reaper allies in the first place (the "peaceful geth" are known to all of 30 people in the galaxy).

Quarian misperceptions of the geth aren't the geth's fault.  The quarians had, via Tali, knowledge regarding the truth behind the level of geth involvement with the reapers.  Ignoring that based upon (incorrect) prejudice and fear pushes the bounds of rationality.

Both sides were hugely at fault, the Quarians for starting the war, and the geth for never showing that peace was possible.

How did the geth never show that peace was possible?  Tali again should have conveyed at least the posibility.  Why is it the geth's responsiblity to seek reapproachment after they were the assaulted party in the first war?

I made a post on this called "Why the Rannoch War makes sense" (Sorry I don't know how to link, kinda new to this whole forum business)

As is, the geth have destroyed every vessel that entered the veil in their entire 300 year history.  Not to mention the orthodox made zero attempt to distinguish themselves from the heretics that tried to end all galactic life 2 years previous.  As far as all but 30 people on the SR2 know, all geth are like the heretics, thanks in no small part to the other geth's silence.  

Tali has authority only if it is used to kill geth, her position is mostly ceremonial and was only awarded after the decision for war was all but certain.  Even then, everything she witnessed happened aboard a Cerberus vessel, and as such is extremely suspect given the Quarian's history with Cerberus.  Much more substantial claims with far more evidence have been "dismissed" in the ME universe.

[justafan]

Drummernate wrote...

4stringwizard wrote...

Drummernate wrote...


On the 5th playthrough of Insanity now...

Obviously I know my way around the story...

---

Then it's truly amazing that you still found a way to miss that detail.  

Sounds like you didn't listen to Legion....

2:09 is where you need to listen.

They did not "Need" to side with them.

They were just scared that they might be totally wiped out because they began bombing their mainframes.

I have a simple question for you.  If you think that the geth could have won without the reapers, how can you possibly defend them?

[feliciano2040]

justafan wrote...

If the geth joined he reapers for any reason other than desperation, as you suggest, there should be no forgiveness.  As is, both sides are at fault, and therefore both side deserve a second chance.

........................

What do you mean "there should be no forgiveness" ?