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[Jog0907]

Averdi wrote...

136th wrote...

The Geth stood by and did nothing as the Heretics left and joined the reapers in the war against all organic life.

Let's keep this condemnation in mind when we think about how no organic race did, or would, intervene when the quarians went back to war with the geth, fully intending to destroy or enslave them.

The morning war was upholding council law which the quarians were bound to then, shut down all AI, quarians were hated not for attempting to kill geth but because they failed to do so, the issue of killing an entire species is raised later on (and mostly by shep), Garrus as a citadel citizen in me1 can remind you why theyre truly disliked.

The second time around, this rule applies, "what Shep knows is not the same as what the general galaxy populace know", when the reapers invade it becomes clear to the majority who were the geth helping 3 years ago, most would assume correctly that the geth were aligned with the reapers so If the quarians start a war with them again it would be seen as an assault on Reapers allies by the general council races pop.

Exceptions are bringing legion to the fleet though such possibilty seems to be retconned in me3, also if Shep gives legion to cerberus the case of the geth is never know and as such the same applies the geth would be seen as still being reaper servants, that they actually become so later in the war, is important but not for the matter of saying what the general populace would think of that war.

[4stringwizard]

KingZayd wrote...

4stringwizard wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

1. The Quarians would have killed 100%. Today, the Quarians would have still killed 100% of the Geth. These Geth were keeping to themselves.
It suggests that both the Quarians and the Geth are pretty ruthless when it comes to war. If this is your reasoning, then we should just nuke Rannoch and kill them all.

2. The Quarians would have done exactly the same thing if the Reapers were intent on exterminating synthetic races instead.
Besides, why care about a galaxy that obviously doesn't want you in it? It's not the nicest of moves (Legion should have called me.. I would have killed the Quarians for him if they refused to make peace), but still: it's understandable. Nobody wants to be annhilated.

1.  Well, the Geth were machines.  Even if you want to say they were "alive", they weren't truly until the Reaper upgrades came into play.  Again, the Geth would have exterminated the Quarians entirely too.  And they do in ME3.  So in reality, the Geth are just as brutal and bloodthirsty as you claim the Quarians are.  The facts speak for themselves. 

2. Really?  Would they?  You don't know that, your'e just conjecturing based on your own opinion.  And even still, you're dealing with "what if's".  I'm going by what happened.  The Geth sided with the Reapers not once, but TWICE.  If this were real life, then I wouldn't have trusted them one bit.  It's kind of amusing though how you say "nobody wants to be annhilated", yet you have no problem committing genocide against the Quarians. 

1. If the Geth were just machines, you can't hold them morally responsible. But i don't think they were. Really? Legion lowered the shields of the dreadnought as a show of good faith, and the Quarians attacked.. WITH ME ON THE DAMN SHIP!  But yeah i said in my earlier point 1, that clearly both sides were ruthless when it came to war. I also said, that if this counts against the Geth, it counts against the Quarians too. If we use this reasoning to decide, we should nuke the planet and kill them both.

2. Yes, they don't consider synthetics to be alive at all. Did you not speak to them? DId you not pay attention? They consider Legion to be just as much a person as a pistol. I had a problem with commiting genocide against the Quarians, which is why i made peace. But if i had to choose, i would choose to save the Geth. The Quarians brought it upon themselves.

1.  No, Han Gerrel (spelling?) ordered the fleet to fire on the dreadnaught.  It wasn't something they all agreed on.  And again, not all the Quarians wanted the war in ME3, including Tali.  Some Quarians even supported the Geth in the Morning War.  You can't doom an entire race for the actions of a few.  As far as the Geth goes, that is a different story since they have consensus.  The Geth as a whole DID choose to side with the Reapers.  

2.  I didn't consider them to be alive either.  At the very least, not until the very end where they have the upgrades uploaded.  You say the Quarians "brought it upon themselves", but you could just as easily say the same about the Geth.  They committed near genocide, and they DO if you side with them, they sided with the Reapers TWICE, and made absolutely no effort to reach out to organics and ask for help/offer peace.  Instead they sided with the greatest thread to the galactic life everywhere.  So yeah, I'd say the Geth did more than enough to bring it upon themselves too.  

[KingZayd]

Drummernate wrote...

4stringwizard wrote...

Drummernate wrote...


On the 5th playthrough of Insanity now...

Obviously I know my way around the story...

---

Then it's truly amazing that you still found a way to miss that detail.  

Sounds like you didn't listen to Legion....

2:09 is where you need to listen.

They did not "Need" to side with them.

They were just scared that they might be totally wiped out because they began bombing their mainframes.

And the Geth were apparently prepared to fight the reapers before the Quarians attacked them according to that video.

[136th]

The geth allied with the reapers for self-preservation...stupid, the reapers are going to kill and brainwash all geth if they wins. So the geth are just making life difficult for anyone else.

[FlyinElk212]

Both sides are at fault, and the Geth's fault is represented by Legion's methods throughout the Rannoch arc.

The way the final scene plays out, combined with the missions leading up to the point, kind of makes it seem like Legion was attempting to manipulate the situation such that the Geth could keep their "synthetic Reaper conscious" (or whatever), regardless of every other scenario. He understood the importance of destroying the Reaper to free the Geth conscious, but he would do anything in his power to ensure the Geth could still be "alive".

He straight up lies to Shepard on multiple occasions and brings up a game-changing tactic (which came-off as an, "Oh, THIS is why you were lying to me all along" sorta moment) at the apex of the Quarian/Geth war, without consulting Tali and Shepard, both great friends and allies of his, first. Heck, if you deny him the opportunity for the upload, HE TRIES TO MURDER SHEPARD.

Legion's inability to accept Shepard and Tali as true allies shows the Geth are at fault as well. Through hidden methodology and slight sabotage, the Geth attempted to get something they wanted at all costs without consideration for the broader picture. That in my mind makes them just as bad as the Quarians.

Modifié par FlyinElk212, 23 avril 2012 - 01:29 .

[4stringwizard]

Drummernate wrote...

4stringwizard wrote...

Drummernate wrote...


On the 5th playthrough of Insanity now...

Obviously I know my way around the story...

---

Then it's truly amazing that you still found a way to miss that detail.  

Sounds like you didn't listen to Legion....

2:09 is where you need to listen.

They did not "Need" to side with them.

They were just scared that they might be totally wiped out because they began bombing their mainframes.

So basically you admit the Geth didn't have to - and so we CAN fault them for siding with the Reapers.  

[Jog0907]

My problem with helping the geth in the conflict is that the idea of compromising a practically secured ally so I can let a species try to implant reaper tech on themselves (despite what happened last time, you should know, you spent the last two main missions fixing that **** up) is nearly unacceptable.

I take peace cause I know I can succeed but in real life I would never compromise the life's of an already secured ally (the quarians) like that, and if I did it would make look like a hypocrite if I criticize TIM for using reaper tech on his soldiers, and I consider sheps who do so to already have such problem.

Modifié par Jog0907, 23 avril 2012 - 01:34 .

[Drummernate]

4stringwizard wrote...

So basically you admit the Geth didn't have to - and so we CAN fault them for siding with the Reapers.  

Sure.

Just as faulty as EDI is for taking over EVA's body without permission.

It was for a tactical advantage that ended up helping in the long run.

[Jog0907]

Drummernate wrote...

4stringwizard wrote...

So basically you admit the Geth didn't have to - and so we CAN fault them for siding with the Reapers.  

Sure.

Just as faulty as EDI is for taking over EVA's body without permission.

It was for a tactical advantage that ended up helping in the long run.

and allowed the reapers to take control of that area of space

[JBPBRC]

4stringwizard wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

4stringwizard wrote...
if the alternative is siding with a genocidal force that will also wipe out entire species, and ultimately the Geth as well, then yes.

...no.
You want them to die for their enemies? Submission IS preferable to extinction.

But they didn't have to die.  They could have at least fled. 

Flee? To where? EDI mentions this, no organic species would have accepted the geth. There was nowhere they could turn to besides the Reapers.

They could have tried harder to communicate with the Quarians beforehand and tell them they wanted peace.

Or the quarians could have attempted to communicate themselves instead of starting another war.

1.  Submission IS preferable to extinction?  That's exactly what Saren though.  You would make a great husk.  
2.  There is plenty of space in the galaxy.  The Geth also had a mobile fleet.  You can't tell me they couldn't have at least found a system to remain in temporarily until things were sorted out.  
3.  The Geth destroyed every ship that entered the veil.  Yes, even the true Geth.  The heretics sided with the Reapers and had a hand in murdering innocent lives.  The Quarians didn't exactly have a reason to trust the Geth were open to negotiation.  

2. The Geth would've had a harder time out of it than the Quarians. The Quarians are, at the very least, barely tolerated by galactic society and considered as "that guy begging on the corner". The Geth wouldn't even have that.

3. How is this different from any country who gets its territory invaded? If your nation's space is violated, its going to be defended. Its why the Council doesn't want to send ships into the Terminus Systems, they know they don't have much weight there, and more likely than not, sending ships there will erupt into violence.

[136th]

Drummernate wrote...

4stringwizard wrote...

So basically you admit the Geth didn't have to - and so we CAN fault them for siding with the Reapers.  

Sure.

Just as faulty as EDI is for taking over EVA's body without permission.

It was for a tactical advantage that ended up helping in the long run.

Drummernate you are a Geth troll

[justafan]

feliciano2040 wrote...

justafan wrote...

If the geth joined he reapers for any reason other than desperation, as you suggest, there should be no forgiveness.  As is, both sides are at fault, and therefore both side deserve a second chance.

........................

What do you mean "there should be no forgiveness" ?

Given the geth hivemind mentality, they all agreed to willingly serve the Reapers.  The reason why I choose peace everytime is because, if their existence was threatened, then serving the reapers might be a justifiable means of survival, but only if it is the last option considered, as it was in game.

To suggest the geth would join of their own accord, even if they were winning as the other poster suggests, would mean that the geth are utterly untrustworthy in a war against the reapers.  I admit "there should be no forgiveness" is a little extreme, but in such a circumstance then siding with the Quarians is a no-brainer if peace is not an option.  Even if peace could be attained, in such a scenario I would be highly distrustful of any geth forces I was fighting with.

[4stringwizard]

Drummernate wrote...

4stringwizard wrote...

So basically you admit the Geth didn't have to - and so we CAN fault them for siding with the Reapers.  

Sure.

Just as faulty as EDI is for taking over EVA's body without permission.

It was for a tactical advantage that ended up helping in the long run.

That means Shepard should have no problem wiping the Geth out - since obviously, they aren't trustworthy.  

Oh and I DID listen - Legion says it was done to avoid extermination.  Seems pretty obvious the Quarians were on the winning side.  

[justafan]

FlyinElk212 wrote...

Both sides are at fault, and the Geth's fault is represented by Legion's methods throughout the Rannoch arc.

The way the final scene plays out, combined with the missions leading up to the point, kind of makes it seem like Legion was attempting to manipulate the situation such that the Geth could keep their "synthetic Reaper conscious" (or whatever), regardless of every other scenario. He understood the importance of destroying the Reaper to free the Geth conscious, but he would do anything in his power to ensure the Geth could still be "alive".

He straight up lies to Shepard on multiple occasions and brings up a game-changing tactic (which came-off as an, "Oh, THIS is why you were lying to me all along" sorta moment) at the apex of the Quarian/Geth war, without consulting Tali and Shepard, both great friends and allies of his, first. Heck, if you deny him the opportunity for the upload, HE TRIES TO MURDER SHEPARD.

Legion's inability to accept Shepard and Tali as true allies shows the Geth are at fault as well. Through hidden methodology and slight sabotage, the Geth attempted to get something they wanted at all costs without consideration for the broader picture. That in my mind makes them just as bad as the Quarians.

Very well said

[Drummernate]

136th wrote...

Drummernate wrote...

4stringwizard wrote...

So basically you admit the Geth didn't have to - and so we CAN fault them for siding with the Reapers.  

Sure.

Just as faulty as EDI is for taking over EVA's body without permission.

It was for a tactical advantage that ended up helping in the long run.

Drummernate you are a Geth troll

Thanks.

I try.

[Drummernate]

Jog0907 wrote...

Drummernate wrote...

4stringwizard wrote...

So basically you admit the Geth didn't have to - and so we CAN fault them for siding with the Reapers.  

Sure.

Just as faulty as EDI is for taking over EVA's body without permission.

It was for a tactical advantage that ended up helping in the long run.

and allowed the reapers to take control of that area of space

"That area of space"

Is almost worthless.

Nobody lives in that area other than a few stray Quarians.

[KingZayd]

4stringwizard wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

4stringwizard wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

1. The Quarians would have killed 100%. Today, the Quarians would have still killed 100% of the Geth. These Geth were keeping to themselves.
It suggests that both the Quarians and the Geth are pretty ruthless when it comes to war. If this is your reasoning, then we should just nuke Rannoch and kill them all.

2. The Quarians would have done exactly the same thing if the Reapers were intent on exterminating synthetic races instead.
Besides, why care about a galaxy that obviously doesn't want you in it? It's not the nicest of moves (Legion should have called me.. I would have killed the Quarians for him if they refused to make peace), but still: it's understandable. Nobody wants to be annhilated.

1.  Well, the Geth were machines.  Even if you want to say they were "alive", they weren't truly until the Reaper upgrades came into play.  Again, the Geth would have exterminated the Quarians entirely too.  And they do in ME3.  So in reality, the Geth are just as brutal and bloodthirsty as you claim the Quarians are.  The facts speak for themselves. 

2. Really?  Would they?  You don't know that, your'e just conjecturing based on your own opinion.  And even still, you're dealing with "what if's".  I'm going by what happened.  The Geth sided with the Reapers not once, but TWICE.  If this were real life, then I wouldn't have trusted them one bit.  It's kind of amusing though how you say "nobody wants to be annhilated", yet you have no problem committing genocide against the Quarians. 

1. If the Geth were just machines, you can't hold them morally responsible. But i don't think they were. Really? Legion lowered the shields of the dreadnought as a show of good faith, and the Quarians attacked.. WITH ME ON THE DAMN SHIP!  But yeah i said in my earlier point 1, that clearly both sides were ruthless when it came to war. I also said, that if this counts against the Geth, it counts against the Quarians too. If we use this reasoning to decide, we should nuke the planet and kill them both.

2. Yes, they don't consider synthetics to be alive at all. Did you not speak to them? DId you not pay attention? They consider Legion to be just as much a person as a pistol. I had a problem with commiting genocide against the Quarians, which is why i made peace. But if i had to choose, i would choose to save the Geth. The Quarians brought it upon themselves.

1.  No, Han Gerrel (spelling?) ordered the fleet to fire on the dreadnaught.  It wasn't something they all agreed on.  And again, not all the Quarians wanted the war in ME3, including Tali.  Some Quarians even supported the Geth in the Morning War.  You can't doom an entire race for the actions of a few.  As far as the Geth goes, that is a different story since they have consensus.  The Geth as a whole DID choose to side with the Reapers.  

2.  I didn't consider them to be alive either.  At the very least, not until the very end where they have the upgrades uploaded.  You say the Quarians "brought it upon themselves", but you could just as easily say the same about the Geth.  They committed near genocide, and they DO if you side with them, they sided with the Reapers TWICE, and made absolutely no effort to reach out to organics and ask for help/offer peace.  Instead they sided with the greatest thread to the galactic life everywhere.  So yeah, I'd say the Geth did more than enough to bring it upon themselves too.  

1. The majority Quarian admiral vote was in favour of this war. The whole fleet went to the war. The Geth consensus is merely a true democracy. Instead of just admirals voting, every Geth votes on every decision. Again, the Geth majority voted in favour of siding with the Reapers. We do not know by how much. Both sides are equally worthy of destruction by these principles. Han Gerrel's betrayal makes it personal, but I didn't factor that into my decision.

2. They committed near genocide when protecting themselves from genocide. Geth slightly win/draw
Both sides commit genocide if you side with them = draw
Neither side reached out to make peace with the other = draw
The Geth were prepared to fight the reapers before the Quarians started this stupid war. Unlike the other races, I didn't have to ask them first. The Quarians prepared to fight the Geth, not the Reapers. = Geth win
The Geth had no friends in the galaxy apart from me, and that was only Legion. They could not expect any help, nor would they have received it. = no penalty
Some of those Geth we're dealing with did ally with the reapers, and i rewrote them. They are not the same geth. For those who destroyed them well... they're not the same Geth = no penalty

Geth win.

[Averdi]

justafan wrote...

I made a post on this called "Why the Rannoch War makes sense" (Sorry I don't know how to link, kinda new to this whole forum business)

As is, the geth have destroyed every vessel that entered the veil in their entire 300 year history.  Not to mention the orthodox made zero attempt to distinguish themselves from the heretics that tried to end all galactic life 2 years previous.  As far as all but 30 people on the SR2 know, all geth are like the heretics, thanks in no small part to the other geth's silence.  

Tali has authority only if it is used to kill geth, her position is mostly ceremonial and was only awarded after the decision for war was all but certain.  Even then, everything she witnessed happened aboard a Cerberus vessel, and as such is extremely suspect given the Quarian's history with Cerberus.  Much more substantial claims with far more evidence have been "dismissed" in the ME universe.

I still don't see in here a rationale for why they geth are at fault for the lack of peace.  Most orgainc governments should know about geth philosophy via Tali (or Shepard, frankly).  That they don't consider those credible sources of information isn't the geth's fault.  You could say that the geth did less than they could for peace with the quarians, but no one except Shepard did more.

[4stringwizard]

JBPBRC wrote...

4stringwizard wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

4stringwizard wrote...
if the alternative is siding with a genocidal force that will also wipe out entire species, and ultimately the Geth as well, then yes.

...no.
You want them to die for their enemies? Submission IS preferable to extinction.

But they didn't have to die.  They could have at least fled. 

Flee? To where? EDI mentions this, no organic species would have accepted the geth. There was nowhere they could turn to besides the Reapers.

They could have tried harder to communicate with the Quarians beforehand and tell them they wanted peace.

Or the quarians could have attempted to communicate themselves instead of starting another war.

1.  Submission IS preferable to extinction?  That's exactly what Saren though.  You would make a great husk.  
2.  There is plenty of space in the galaxy.  The Geth also had a mobile fleet.  You can't tell me they couldn't have at least found a system to remain in temporarily until things were sorted out.  
3.  The Geth destroyed every ship that entered the veil.  Yes, even the true Geth.  The heretics sided with the Reapers and had a hand in murdering innocent lives.  The Quarians didn't exactly have a reason to trust the Geth were open to negotiation.  

2. The Geth would've had a harder time out of it than the Quarians. The Quarians are, at the very least, barely tolerated by galactic society and considered as "that guy begging on the corner". The Geth wouldn't even have that.

3. How is this different from any country who gets its territory invaded? If your nation's space is violated, its going to be defended. Its why the Council doesn't want to send ships into the Terminus Systems, they know they don't have much weight there, and more likely than not, sending ships there will erupt into violence.

2.  Then that is the Geth's fault due to their own actions, as already stated.  It was something that could have been avoided, but the Geth instead chose to remain isolated.  But not enoug to warrant their destruction, I agree.  
3.  How is "every lone ship" wondering into the territory count as an invastion?  That's absurd to even suggest the two are alike.  The Geth destroyed every ship regardless of whether it was hostile.  That doesn't scream "we're a peaceful race".  

[Made Nightwing]

The Quarians had the right to reclaim their homeworld. It was theirs, it did not belong to the geth, no matter how 'cute' they were. When you're desperate for survival, you don't fight back and exterminate everything in sight, you run. The geth are machines, cold and unfeeling. Love, compassion, mercy and understanding unique to organic biology and psychology. No matter how advanced a machine is, it cannot mimic biological reactions such as these. I saved both of them, but I would never pick the geth over the quarians.

[Computron2000]

The answer is in ME2. Bring Legion to Tali's trial and listen to what he says to the admirals on peace. This is when the Geth are at full power, not dumbed down. Diplomacy would have worked if it was organised by a person trusted by both sides -> Shepard.

[4stringwizard]

KingZayd wrote...
1. The majority Quarian admiral vote was in favour of this war. The whole fleet went to the war. The Geth consensus is merely a true democracy. Instead of just admirals voting, every Geth votes on every decision. Again, the Geth majority voted in favour of siding with the Reapers. We do not know by how much. Both sides are equally worthy of destruction by these principles. Han Gerrel's betrayal makes it personal, but I didn't factor that into my decision.

2. They committed near genocide when protecting themselves from genocide. Geth slightly win/draw
Both sides commit genocide if you side with them = draw
Neither side reached out to make peace with the other = draw
The Geth were prepared to fight the reapers before the Quarians started this stupid war. Unlike the other races, I didn't have to ask them first. The Quarians prepared to fight the Geth, not the Reapers. = Geth win
The Geth had no friends in the galaxy apart from me, and that was only Legion. They could not expect any help, nor would they have received it. = no penalty
Some of those Geth we're dealing with did ally with the reapers, and i rewrote them. They are not the same geth. For those who destroyed them well... they're not the same Geth = no penalty

Geth win.

1.  They wanted to retake their homeworld.  I would have done the same thing.  And Quarians with a homeworld would have been better allies than as the wondering fleet, barely scraping by.  So they were still helping out Shepard, just indirectly.  

2.  So it's a numbers game to you now?  Whoever has the most points wins?  

And the Quarians obviously were willing to help Shepard.  That's clear from the start.  But they were taking the actions necessary to put themselves to be in the best service to the war.  As far as the Geth you rewrote - they STILL allied with the Reapers.  In a sense, they betrayed Shepard.  Geth don't win in that case.    And if you really do try to damn the Quarians for wanting to retake their world, you might as well also do the same to Wrex and the Krogan for trying to cure the genophage first.  But I doubt you would. 

Modifié par 4stringwizard, 23 avril 2012 - 01:50 .

[Paranoidal nemesis]

ZeroSum7 wrote...

I didn't have to choose one species, but I would have sided with the Geth. Why? because throughout ME3 the Quarians were acting extremely selfishly and stupid. (Starting a war after the reapers started to invade, Attacking a ship with me in it, and after I stop the Geth from attacking the Quarians AGAIN try to destroy the Geth)

 


Were the Quarians supposed to send their entire speicies (including children) off to fight the reapers?  The Quarians needed to retake their home world first to shield their non-combatants as mentioned in ME2, and second every fricking speciies in ME3 is trying to retake their homeworld.  Since the Geth forited their sentience by being agents of the reapers, the Quarians aren't any different than any other speicies. 

Screw Wrex for wanting a cure for the Genophage instead of fighting the reapers
Screw the Turians for wanting help from the krograns instead of helping retake Earth.

As Hackett mentioned,Humanity lost Earth a few weeks ago, the Quarians over 300 years.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

The peace will not last. The last thing we need is Geth trapped in the Sol system at the end. Frak 'em. Fry the toasters.

[justafan]

Averdi wrote...

justafan wrote...

I made a post on this called "Why the Rannoch War makes sense" (Sorry I don't know how to link, kinda new to this whole forum business)

As is, the geth have destroyed every vessel that entered the veil in their entire 300 year history.  Not to mention the orthodox made zero attempt to distinguish themselves from the heretics that tried to end all galactic life 2 years previous.  As far as all but 30 people on the SR2 know, all geth are like the heretics, thanks in no small part to the other geth's silence.  

Tali has authority only if it is used to kill geth, her position is mostly ceremonial and was only awarded after the decision for war was all but certain.  Even then, everything she witnessed happened aboard a Cerberus vessel, and as such is extremely suspect given the Quarian's history with Cerberus.  Much more substantial claims with far more evidence have been "dismissed" in the ME universe.

I still don't see in here a rationale for why they geth are at fault for the lack of peace.  Most orgainc governments should know about geth philosophy via Tali (or Shepard, frankly).  That they don't consider those credible sources of information isn't the geth's fault.  You could say that the geth did less than they could for peace with the quarians, but no one except Shepard did more.

However, Legion's mission was never to seek peace with the Quarians, his mission was to learn about Shepard and later end a geth civil war, so even then we can't count him as an envoy of peace.  Also, Shepard is a Spectre and war hero, yet the council doesn't believe him about the Reapers in both ME1 and ME2.  You can hardly blame the Quarians for being skeptical of a girl 2 years off her pilgrimage making claims about their arch nemesis she learned aboard a terrorist vessel, all without evidence.  I never said it was entirely the geth's fault, I am a firm believer that both sides are more or less equally at fault for the current war, which is why both deserve peace.