861 réponses à ce sujet

[justafan]

Averdi wrote...


I'll concede that the geth were generally isolationist and didn't go the extra mile to try an achieve peace with the quarians.  But I dispute the idea that such a lack raises their level of culpability to that of the quarians.  I see geth fault (if one can call it that) as far, far less that of their creators.

Quarian or galactic scepticism about Tali's and Shepard's claims on geth foreign policy are not the geth's fault.  It might be foolish of the quarians to take Tali and Shepard at their word (though I think their assistance to the fleet in ME2 should win them some credibility points), but the quarians decided to go in shooting rather then even entertain the possibility that they were correct.  Gerrel keeps doing it right until the end.  Reaper invasion aside, no one in the galactic community thought that such a move was morally unwise.

No organic race has ever demonstrated a concern for geth rights or interests, yet geth are seemingly criticized for not doing more than everyone else in the goodwill department.  You can say that the geth were perhaps unwise in their isolationist policy, until Shepard demostrated some organic goodwill, but that doesn't make them morally guilty of the war or its effect.

My biggest issue with Geth culpability is that when the Heretics attacked, they did nothing.  Until then their isolationism was understandable, as the status quo suited their goals.  The heretic's attack effectively ended that isolationism.  They allow the galaxy to operate under the (logical) assumption that all geth view the reapers as gods, and want organics annihilated.

That should have forced them to make to make some attempt to contact organics.  It was a faction of geth who upset the status quo, so it is the geth's responsibility to resolve the situation.

[formshifter]

I think both deserve a chance. . . but I'd pick the Quarians if I were forced to do so. They have at least been consistent in their actions. The Geth have shown to be less than trustworthy more than once, and they are machines. Re-programming is easier than indoctrinating. As much as I'd rather stop both factions and keep them for my Reaper war, I would save the organic species before I picked the AI. That is me, personally.

Shepard. . . well, it depends on your Shepard. Are you playing one that does the Ruthless Calculus that Garrus talks about? He might pick the Geth if he re-wrote the Heretics (since they'd be stronger). There are several other ways things can play out, depending on how your Shepard is (3 outcomes total, and the reasoning behind them can always be different).

[JBPBRC]

Jog0907 wrote...

JBPBRC wrote...

I don't want to delve too much into the "what ifs" since they could devolve to any number of ways. For instance: What if it really WASN'T a civilian craft, or it had a nuclear device hidden on it? ZOMG PLOT TWIST. CONSPIRACY.

We don't know if those craft were civilian or not. Just that "any ship" crossing was destroyed. Is it possible a civilian craft was hit? Definitely. Is it just as possible that the ships weren't civilian and ranged from Salarian STG and Asari Commandos to Turian warships? Absolutely.

In the end, all the Geth wanted to do was build their giant collective supercomputer thing. You know, aside from trying to stay alive when your crazy creators come a-knockin' on your door trying to kill you.

while letting their only contact with other species be in the form of the organic hostile heretic geth which will of course make other species want to eliminate you since they dont know abouth the geth schism, and come to see from the info they have available that geth are hostile.

Quarian sob stories + Geth Isolationism is not the most ideal combination when reaching out. Point is though, the Geth didn't care about reaching out, either peacefully, or in a conquering method. They just wanted their collective supercomputer. Without the Reapers they probably would've just stayed there, acknowledged and avoided, just like the Terminus Systems. The Council certainly wasn't going to do anything about them, it was almost an unspoken agreement.

"We're not going to go over to your backyard, since we know you'll attack us. But you've been pretty cool these last couple of centuries about never going into our backyard either. We're cool bro."

Even after Soverign's attack, the Geth really weren't affected. The rogue elements in Council space were hunted down, but that's it. There was never a big push to invade Geth territory, so really the only talk of "eliminating the Geth" was coming from the Quarians. Fitting, since that's where it began in the first place.

[KingZayd]

4stringwizard wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

4stringwizard wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Wrex didn't start a war to get the genophage cured. Again, why should he fight for the benefit of the races that doomed his, and refuse to fix the damage? Wrex is justified, and is smart to use this rare opportunity to save his race. Wrex is a damn hero. It's a fair trade really. The Krogan will help save the Turians and the other races if they will save his.

He should fight because the Reapers are out to get his race too.  The big picture is what matters (the fact that you can't grasp that is a little disturbing).  It doesn't matter who started what war.  He still, by your logic, was wrong for not taking on the Reaper with Shepard first.  But the same logic can also apply to the Quarians.  They get back their home world, they become stronger allies, and they help out in the fight.  Everybody wins.  

Doesn't matter, his race is doomed anyway without the genophage cure. A bit easy to say when your race has a hope of survival. Wrex has been around for a long time. When  is he ever gonna get another chance to save his people? and no, if you're not going to help then that's fine. If you're going to start a pointless war and kill people that's another thing entirely. The Quarians started a pointless war, causing a loss of resources on their side and the Geth's, meaning i have 2 sets of allies who are weaker in the very best scenario where there is peace. The Quarian stupidity can have higher cost if peace is unobtainable. Nobody wins from the Quarian's stupid war, and i won't let them.

You won't let them.  You'd rather side with a race that also commits genocide AND sides with the enemy multiple times.  

Oh, and again, it wasn't pointless.  Taking back the homeworld would have made the Quarians more reliable allies, as I already said.  I see reading comprehension isn't your strong point.  

They both commit genocide apparently. Therefore that doesn't matter. I'd rather side with the race that was preparing for a war against my enemies (the reapers) rather than a pointless one against my potential allies (the geth)

yes it was pointless. i told you already. The Quarians suffered losses from that fight. So did the Geth. That means both allied forces suffered because of this pointless war. Them having a planet doesn't help me against the reapers.
I see reading comprehension isn't YOUR strong point either.

[Jog0907]

Still leaves the fact that pretty much all other species assume hostiles when seeing geth, they may not consider attacking them but they still consider them as enemies.

[General User]

KingZayd wrote...
LOL i'm just imagining the Geth chasing down the Quarians accross the galaxy and telling them "STOP! Sign this damn treaty!

Honestly I think that option was pretty much down the tubes as soon as the Mirgant Fleet left Rannoch.  The Council might have been willing to sit on the sidelines while a Citadel races got wiped out, but if the geth started sending an armada out to blockade relay junctions and fuel sources and such, the Council's patience would have started wearing real thin, real fast.

I haven't seen the Quarian attitudes change.

*shrug*  Try looking at it from Commander Shepard's perspective.  What's best for humanity, the Alliance, and Earth?

Modifié par General User, 23 avril 2012 - 02:30 .

[Averdi]

Sparatus wrote...

You have to understand that the majority of the galaxy doesn't know about the geth/heretic split. And that it would probably be a good idea to get rid of the killer robots that, to your knowledge, sided with the Reapers last time.

The majority of the galaxy doesn't even know or believe in the reapers until they show up.  The folks who accept what the reapers are and what they represent overlaps fairly strongly with those who do or should know about the geth split.  Such people should be making policy based on both pieces of information.

[JBPBRC]

Averdi wrote...

Sparatus wrote...

You have to understand that the majority of the galaxy doesn't know about the geth/heretic split. And that it would probably be a good idea to get rid of the killer robots that, to your knowledge, sided with the Reapers last time.

The majority of the galaxy doesn't even know or believe in the reapers until they show up.  The folks who accept what the reapers are and what they represent overlaps fairly strongly with those who do or should know about the geth split.  Such people should be making policy based on both pieces of information.

QFT. If the notion that killing machines that are billions of years old are about to come back and OMNOMNOM everything won't make the galaxy prepare for Armageddon, I doubt the Geth are likely to evoke any kind of reaction.
(Spoiler: There is no reaction. The galaxy moves on after Soverign.)

[Jog0907]

Averdi wrote...

Sparatus wrote...

You have to understand that the majority of the galaxy doesn't know about the geth/heretic split. And that it would probably be a good idea to get rid of the killer robots that, to your knowledge, sided with the Reapers last time.

The majority of the galaxy doesn't even know or believe in the reapers until they show up.  The folks who accept what the reapers are and what they represent overlaps fairly strongly with those who do or should know about the geth split.  Such people should be making policy based on both pieces of information.

And when they show up the majority of the galaxy realizes than the geth attack 3 years ago wasnt just a geth attack it was geth being allied with the reapers.

About people who accept reapers and know of the geth schism, im ceratin you know that they arent many if any people at all compared to the billions that dont know, but are for the most part in no position to actually dictate galactic policy.

[justafan]

Averdi wrote...

justafan wrote...

Wrong, the Quarians were members of the Citadel, they had an official embassy and as such all planets aligned with the Quarian government were subject to Council laws regarding AI.  It is also mentioned that even before the Morning War, AI was illegal, that much is stated in game, as such the Quarians were acting under council law when they tried to prevent the geth from becoming AI.  (This is the same law that requires you kill EDI on Luna).

The quarians had an embassy on the citadel and interacted in citadel politics.  Council laws are, legally, in force only in council space, which I don't know whether it includes Rannoch given just how far out it is.  The quarian gov't wasn't legally "subject" to council law any more than the Alliance was subject to it in ME1 - it's just stupid for small fish to ignore what the big fish wants.  AI was against council law, which made it a legal prohibition in council space, and the smart thing to do outside council space.

The reapers were indeed mentioned on the Flotilla.  When you tell Gerrel (of all people) you will need the Migrant Fleet to fight the Reapers (and the reapers are mentioned by name) he is the ONLY non-human politician that does not dismiss your claim but instead says something along the line that "then we will need a homeworld to shelter our civilians".

Sorry, as per the assertion I was responding to, I meant mentions of a geth-reaper connection - that the geth are fair game because they could be working with/for the reapers.  This was to divine the quarians' motivation for reopening hostilities.  I think it was just because they wanted their homeworld and finally had the tech to get it, not that attacking the geth was some type of indirect attack on the reapers.

Alliance space is considered council space, just as there is Asari space and Hierarchy space.  The Systems Alliance and all planets falling under alliance space are subject to Council Laws.  This is why humans initially had to limit their dreadnought production, the Treaty of Ferixen was a Council Law that they needed to follow as a condition for joining the Citadel embassies.  As such, the Quarian government was indeed bound by council laws on AI.

There is however a difference between "Alliance Space" and "Human Space".  Individuals and Organizations are free to colonize unclaimed worlds.  This is why Illium can have slavery, it is a de facto Asari world but not technically part of the Asari Republics.  Theoretically, if the geth gained sentience on the Quarian equivalent of Illium, there would be no obligation to shut them down. However it is heavily implied that the geth gained sentience on Rannoch, or at least a major world under government law.

As for the Geth-reaper connection, I haven't played Tali's loyalty mission in a while so I don't know if it is directly mentioned.  However, it is not a stretch to assume the Quarians made the connection themselves.

[KingZayd]

General User wrote...

KingZayd wrote...
LOL i'm just imagining the Geth chasing down the Quarians accross the galaxy and telling them "STOP! Sign this damn treaty!

Honestly I think that option was pretty much down the tubes as soon as the Mirgant Fleet left Rannoch.  The Council might have been willing to sit on the sidelines while a Citadel races got wiped out, but if the geth started sendig an armada out to blockade relay junctions and fuel sources and such, the Council's patience would have started wearing real thin, real fast.

I haven't seen the Quarian attitudes change.

*shrug*  Try looking at it from Commander Shepard's perspective.  What's best for humanity, the Alliance, and Earth?

Commander Shepard looks at things (logic wise anyway.. emotionally.. that's different) from my perspective. He chose peace. But then that was paragon shepard. I should point out thought, that if peace wasn't possible, he would have chosen the Geth. They seemed more reasonable than the Quarians.

Modifié par KingZayd, 23 avril 2012 - 02:30 .

[Jog0907]

JBPBRC wrote...

Averdi wrote...

Sparatus wrote...

You have to understand that the majority of the galaxy doesn't know about the geth/heretic split. And that it would probably be a good idea to get rid of the killer robots that, to your knowledge, sided with the Reapers last time.

The majority of the galaxy doesn't even know or believe in the reapers until they show up.  The folks who accept what the reapers are and what they represent overlaps fairly strongly with those who do or should know about the geth split.  Such people should be making policy based on both pieces of information.

QFT. If the notion that killing machines that are billions of years old are about to come back and OMNOMNOM everything won't make the galaxy prepare for Armageddon, I doubt the Geth are likely to evoke any kind of reaction.
(Spoiler: There is no reaction. The galaxy moves on after Soverign.)

except that the last most people (my most I mean billions versus some dozens) saw of the geth, were them helping a reaper capture the citadel. its logical that they assume the geth were still reaper allies, and thus a problem as well, once they saw the reapers return and confirm that sovereign wasnt a geth dreadnought but still someone who fought alongside geth.

Modifié par Jog0907, 23 avril 2012 - 02:34 .

[Rip504]

The Geth make the Star/Godchild right in it's logic. As the Synthetic Geth are now willing to kill all Organic life to survive. That is why the Reaper states the war for Rannoch proves it. because it does.

[Averdi]

justafan wrote...

My biggest issue with Geth culpability is that when the Heretics attacked, they did nothing.  Until then their isolationism was understandable, as the status quo suited their goals.  The heretic's attack effectively ended that isolationism.  They allow the galaxy to operate under the (logical) assumption that all geth view the reapers as gods, and want organics annihilated.

The orthodox geth had no more obligation to justify, apologize for, or explain their spliter faction than the asari gov't has obligation to explain or take responsiblity for Aria or ecliple vanguard maidens wacking other races' merchant ships.  Both are free-willed rogues from their societies not operating, nor claiming to operate, under their ostensible gov't's authority.  When faced with violence from such asari rogues, most victims lay the blame at the individuals responsible, they don't leap to the assumption that the matriarchs are plotting against them.

That should have forced them to make to make some attempt to contact organics.  It was a faction of geth who upset the status quo, so it is the geth's responsibility to resolve the situation.

They made their position known through Shepard and the Normandy crew in ME2.  The message got out.

Again, it may have been the smart move, but it's really not the geth's responsiblity.  Now, if the heretics rejoined the collective and victims from eden prime wanted to damage from the larget geth gov't for former-heretic actions, then I'd agree with that.

Modifié par Averdi, 23 avril 2012 - 02:37 .

[Rip504]

The Geth in ME3,are now going down the same road as the Heretics from ME1&2. No longer is there a difference between Heretics and Geth.

[JBPBRC]

Jog0907 wrote...

JBPBRC wrote...

Averdi wrote...

Sparatus wrote...

You have to understand that the majority of the galaxy doesn't know about the geth/heretic split. And that it would probably be a good idea to get rid of the killer robots that, to your knowledge, sided with the Reapers last time.

The majority of the galaxy doesn't even know or believe in the reapers until they show up.  The folks who accept what the reapers are and what they represent overlaps fairly strongly with those who do or should know about the geth split.  Such people should be making policy based on both pieces of information.

QFT. If the notion that killing machines that are billions of years old are about to come back and OMNOMNOM everything won't make the galaxy prepare for Armageddon, I doubt the Geth are likely to evoke any kind of reaction.
(Spoiler: There is no reaction. The galaxy moves on after Soverign.)

except that the last most people (my most I mean billions versus some dozens) saw of the geth, were them helping a reaper capture the citadel. its logical that they assume the geth were still reaper allies, and thus a problem as well, once they saw the reapers return and confirm that sovereign wasnt a geth dreadnought but still someone who fought alongside geth.

At this point the galaxy just does not care about
the Geth, and rightly so. They're too busy trying to survive the giant
alien squid spaceships landing on every planet and blowing up their
stuff. In fact, the ONLY people that don't care about the Reapers at all
are the Quarians, who are so hellbent on destroying the Geth that they
haven't realized that even if they completely won, the Reapers are just
going to come to Rannoch.

[4stringwizard]

JBPBRC wrote...


At this point the galaxy just does not care about
the Geth, and rightly so. They're too busy trying to survive the giant
alien squid spaceships landing on every planet and blowing up their
stuff. In fact, the ONLY people that don't care about the Reapers at all
are the Quarians, who are so hellbent on destroying the Geth that they
haven't realized that even if they completely won, the Reapers are just
going to come to Rannoch.

The Quarians help fight the Reapers in the end.  That kind of equates to them caring.  Just saying.  

[Rip504]

Synthetics are trying to kill all organics to survive in our cycle. The Star/Godchild isn't speaking BS,mainly because of the Geth's actions.

[justafan]

JBPBRC wrote...

Jog0907 wrote...

JBPBRC wrote...

Averdi wrote...

Sparatus wrote...

You have to understand that the majority of the galaxy doesn't know about the geth/heretic split. And that it would probably be a good idea to get rid of the killer robots that, to your knowledge, sided with the Reapers last time.

The majority of the galaxy doesn't even know or believe in the reapers until they show up.  The folks who accept what the reapers are and what they represent overlaps fairly strongly with those who do or should know about the geth split.  Such people should be making policy based on both pieces of information.

QFT. If the notion that killing machines that are billions of years old are about to come back and OMNOMNOM everything won't make the galaxy prepare for Armageddon, I doubt the Geth are likely to evoke any kind of reaction.
(Spoiler: There is no reaction. The galaxy moves on after Soverign.)

except that the last most people (my most I mean billions versus some dozens) saw of the geth, were them helping a reaper capture the citadel. its logical that they assume the geth were still reaper allies, and thus a problem as well, once they saw the reapers return and confirm that sovereign wasnt a geth dreadnought but still someone who fought alongside geth.

At this point the galaxy just does not care about
the Geth, and rightly so. They're too busy trying to survive the giant
alien squid spaceships landing on every planet and blowing up their
stuff. In fact, the ONLY people that don't care about the Reapers at all
are the Quarians, who are so hellbent on destroying the Geth that they
haven't realized that even if they completely won, the Reapers are just
going to come to Rannoch.

The Quarians care about the Reapers.  I seem to recall the Quarians promising you their fleets if you help them end their war (no different than Wrex promising you the Krogan if the Genophage is cured, & the Salarians promising you their fleets if it's sabotaged).  And Gerrel also mentions in Tali's loyalty mission in ME2 that the Quarians would need a world of their own to shelter civilians before they could ever assist the galaxy in repelling the reapers.

[Averdi]

Jog0907 wrote...

And when they show up the majority of the galaxy realizes than the geth attack 3 years ago wasnt just a geth attack it was geth being allied with the reapers.

Maybe, but at that point I believe the quarians have already launched their attack.  And regardless, it isn't the millions who saw their first reaper when it landed in the local swimming pool who are making organic gov't policy.

About people who accept reapers and know of the geth schism, im ceratin you know that they arent many if any people at all compared to the billions that dont know, but are for the most part in no position to actually dictate galactic policy.

Exactly.  Organic indifference towards the geth is the result of people who should have all the facts, or at least as many as the player knows.  They (should) know what the reapers are, they should know that the geth who helped Soverign were rogues from the larger geth collective.  The man on the street could be forgiven the misperception that the invading reapers are alligned with the geth (or are geth themselves, given the council's explanation for Soverign), but not their leaders who formulate policy.

[JBPBRC]

4stringwizard wrote...

JBPBRC wrote...


At this point the galaxy just does not care about
the Geth, and rightly so. They're too busy trying to survive the giant
alien squid spaceships landing on every planet and blowing up their
stuff. In fact, the ONLY people that don't care about the Reapers at all
are the Quarians, who are so hellbent on destroying the Geth that they
haven't realized that even if they completely won, the Reapers are just
going to come to Rannoch.

The Quarians help fight the Reapers in the end.  That kind of equates to them caring.  Just saying.  

Only because Shepard effectively twisted their arm into doing so. This is different from say,  the Turians, who couldn't completely commit because they were (already) fighting the Reapers on multiple fronts  In fact, without Shepard they'd probably still be fighting the Geth by the time the Citadel was moved to Earth.

[Drummernate]

Enough arguing!!!!!

I have a flashlight for a head... you guys should feel sorry for me!

(Look at how cute it is!!! :innocent:)

Modifié par Drummernate, 23 avril 2012 - 02:47 .

[Jog0907]

JBPBRC wrote...

Jog0907 wrote...

JBPBRC wrote...

Averdi wrote...

Sparatus wrote...

You have to understand that the majority of the galaxy doesn't know about the geth/heretic split. And that it would probably be a good idea to get rid of the killer robots that, to your knowledge, sided with the Reapers last time.

The majority of the galaxy doesn't even know or believe in the reapers until they show up.  The folks who accept what the reapers are and what they represent overlaps fairly strongly with those who do or should know about the geth split.  Such people should be making policy based on both pieces of information.

QFT. If the notion that killing machines that are billions of years old are about to come back and OMNOMNOM everything won't make the galaxy prepare for Armageddon, I doubt the Geth are likely to evoke any kind of reaction.
(Spoiler: There is no reaction. The galaxy moves on after Soverign.)

except that the last most people (my most I mean billions versus some dozens) saw of the geth, were them helping a reaper capture the citadel. its logical that they assume the geth were still reaper allies, and thus a problem as well, once they saw the reapers return and confirm that sovereign wasnt a geth dreadnought but still someone who fought alongside geth.

At this point the galaxy just does not care about
the Geth, and rightly so. They're too busy trying to survive the giant
alien squid spaceships landing on every planet and blowing up their
stuff. In fact, the ONLY people that don't care about the Reapers at all
are the Quarians, who are so hellbent on destroying the Geth that they
haven't realized that even if they completely won, the Reapers are just
going to come to Rannoch.

of course they are most concened about reapers, that doesnt means that the geth, an species that as far as they know is an ally of the reapers would stop being a concern to them.
Quarians care about reapers, their condition to being able to help Shep against the reapers was having a world were to shelter noncombatants and in early me3 that what they are trying to acquire since all other colony prospects have failed.