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[4stringwizard]

JBPBRC wrote...

4stringwizard wrote...

JBPBRC wrote...


At this point the galaxy just does not care about
the Geth, and rightly so. They're too busy trying to survive the giant
alien squid spaceships landing on every planet and blowing up their
stuff. In fact, the ONLY people that don't care about the Reapers at all
are the Quarians, who are so hellbent on destroying the Geth that they
haven't realized that even if they completely won, the Reapers are just
going to come to Rannoch.

The Quarians help fight the Reapers in the end.  That kind of equates to them caring.  Just saying.  

Only because Shepard effectively twisted their arm into doing so. This is different from say,  the Turians, who couldn't completely commit because they were (already) fighting the Reapers on multiple fronts  In fact, without Shepard they'd probably still be fighting the Geth by the time the Citadel was moved to Earth.

You could say that about every race then, since no race commits to fighting the Reapers until they're literally knocking their doors down.  Even Wrex tries dealing with the genophage before committing to Shepard.  I don't see a lot of people faulting him.  And how did Shepard "twist their arm", exactly?  He/she didn't coerce them into fighting. 

[Jog0907]

4stringwizard wrote...

JBPBRC wrote...

4stringwizard wrote...

JBPBRC wrote...


At this point the galaxy just does not care about
the Geth, and rightly so. They're too busy trying to survive the giant
alien squid spaceships landing on every planet and blowing up their
stuff. In fact, the ONLY people that don't care about the Reapers at all
are the Quarians, who are so hellbent on destroying the Geth that they
haven't realized that even if they completely won, the Reapers are just
going to come to Rannoch.

The Quarians help fight the Reapers in the end.  That kind of equates to them caring.  Just saying.  

Only because Shepard effectively twisted their arm into doing so. This is different from say,  the Turians, who couldn't completely commit because they were (already) fighting the Reapers on multiple fronts  In fact, without Shepard they'd probably still be fighting the Geth by the time the Citadel was moved to Earth.

You could say that about every race then, since no race commits to fighting the Reapers until they're literally knocking their doors down.  Even Wrex tries dealing with the genophage before committing to Shepard.  I don't see a lot of people faulting him.  And how did Shepard "twist their arm", exactly?  He/she didn't coerce them into fighting. 

agreed and about quarians they say theyll have ships assisting the crucible and turians asap before Shep even says anything, so much for having to twist their arm.

[JBPBRC]

D'oh. NINJA'd.

The Quarians care about the Reapers. I seem to recall the Quarians promising you their fleets if you help them end their war (no different than Wrex promising you the Krogan if the Genophage is cured, & the Salarians promising you their fleets if it's sabotaged).

The big difference here is that in some form or fashion, both the Krogan and Salarians are already fighting the Reapers, they're just not a part of Shepard's big happy family. The Quarians had zero involvement with the Reapers until after the Geth situation.

And Gerrel also mentions in Tali's loyalty mission in ME2 that the Quarians would need a world of their own to shelter civilians before they could ever assist the galaxy in repelling the reapers.

With metagaming, that doesn't make sense. Quarians threw everything and everyone into the assault on Rannoch. Including the civilians. Seems like they really don't need a planet to be committed to a massive assault, or have the concern for civilian bystanders as their most important priority.

of course they are most concened about reapers, that doesnt means that the geth, an species that as far as they know is an ally of the reapers would stop being a concern to them.
Quarians care about reapers, their condition to being able to help Shep against the reapers was having a world were to shelter noncombatants and in early me3 that what they are trying to acquire since all other colony prospects have failed.

Shepard, through Tali, has given the Quarians the knowledge that the Geth =/= Reapers all the time. Not the fault of the Geth if Tali didn't pass the information on or if the Quarians ignored it. See my above point of Quarians even throwing their Civilian Fleet at the Geth.

Edit: STOP WITH THE NINJAS!

agreed and about quarians they say theyll have ships assisting the
crucible and turians asap before Shep even says anything, so much for
having to twist their arm.

Only AFTER you help them with their NON-REAPER INVOLVED WAR. A war they could have just as easily put off until AFTER the Reaper threat.

Modifié par JBPBRC, 23 avril 2012 - 02:54 .

[Averdi]

justafan wrote...

Alliance space is considered council space, just as there is Asari space and Hierarchy space.  The Systems Alliance and all planets falling under alliance space are subject to Council Laws.  This is why humans initially had to limit their dreadnought production, the Treaty of Ferixen was a Council Law that they needed to follow as a condition for joining the Citadel embassies.  As such, the Quarian government was indeed bound by council laws on AI.

Hmm.  Well, if that's true, and the war was at least in part about simple enforcement of council law, then why did the council turn the quarians down when they asked for council help against the geth?  Seems bad form not to assist in the enforcement of your own laws...the quarians didn't mean to create AI.

Sorry, to me it still seems like the Morning War was about geth vs quarian intersts, not broader galactic law or principles.

As for the Geth-reaper connection, I haven't played Tali's loyalty mission in a while so I don't know if it is directly mentioned.  However, it is not a stretch to assume the Quarians made the connection themselves.

Well, I haven't either, but I don't recall a geth-reaper alliance motivation from the quarians.  Even if there was that concern, I'm fairly certain from what I do recall hearing that it was a minor concern beside the desire simply to get their homeworld back.

[JBPBRC]

Sparatus wrote...

Drummernate wrote...

Enough arguing!!!!!

I have a flashlight for a head... you guys should feel sorry for me!

(Look at how cute it is!!! :innocent:)

Shutup, Legion. No one cares how adorable you are.

Legion!!!111!!!one! D'awww....:innocent:

[nrcrane]

Not really sure why people are mostly focusing on the Quarians and how bad they are. From what I remember there were a lot of shades of gray when it came to all the different races, except for maybe the Volus or Elcor.

Quarians are getting a bad rap for trying to take back their homeworld. I agree that what they did wasn't right, but I can sympathize with their situation.

The Krogan in the past were a threat to much of the galaxy. During the game there is a point where the Primarch describes just how relentless the Krogan were and how they were pushing on Palavin. The genophage was used as a defensive weapon which I think was described in ME2 as a "gentle genocide."

In the Krogan rebellion situation the Turians were in a similar position as the Geth were with the Quarians. Yet I don't really see many people discussing how the Krogans got what they deserved and it being justice to have them slowly going extinct, when compared to the quick extinction that people seem to think the Quarians deserved on Rannoch.

And if the Quarians are racist then so are the Asari, Krogan, Salarian, Turians, and pretty much every species in the Mass Effect universe. Seems to me the Quarians are really no better or worse then any of them, but they seem to be getting a lot of hate thrown their way.

[justafan]

Averdi wrote...

justafan wrote...

Alliance space is considered council space, just as there is Asari space and Hierarchy space.  The Systems Alliance and all planets falling under alliance space are subject to Council Laws.  This is why humans initially had to limit their dreadnought production, the Treaty of Ferixen was a Council Law that they needed to follow as a condition for joining the Citadel embassies.  As such, the Quarian government was indeed bound by council laws on AI.

Hmm.  Well, if that's true, and the war was at least in part about simple enforcement of council law, then why did the council turn the quarians down when they asked for council help against the geth?  Seems bad form not to assist in the enforcement of your own laws...the quarians didn't mean to create AI.

Sorry, to me it still seems like the Morning War was about geth vs quarian intersts, not broader galactic law or principles.

As for the Geth-reaper connection, I haven't played Tali's loyalty mission in a while so I don't know if it is directly mentioned.  However, it is not a stretch to assume the Quarians made the connection themselves.

Well, I haven't either, but I don't recall a geth-reaper alliance motivation from the quarians.  Even if there was that concern, I'm fairly certain from what I do recall hearing that it was a minor concern beside the desire simply to get their homeworld back.

I think it is safe to say that if there is one thing we Mass Effect players can all agree on is that the Council is selfish, hypocritical, and will throw you under the bus as soon as it suits them.  The Quarians were simply not influencial or important enough to warrant assistance until the war effected a species more important like the Turians or Asari.  Humans have first hand experience with this.  When the Skyllian Blitz happened "That's an Alliance issue"  When Sovereign attacked Eden Prime, "Thats an Alliance issue".  When the Collectors were wiping out entire colonies, "Thats an Alliance issue".  Its safe to say 300 years ago "That was a Quarian issue".

I think you are right in that the reaper-geth connection was never explicitly stated.  But I stand by the claim it was a reasonable justification for attacking the geth to reclaim Rannoch.

[Drummernate]

Sparatus wrote...

Drummernate wrote...

Enough arguing!!!!!

I have a flashlight for a head... you guys should feel sorry for me!

(Look at how cute it is!!! :innocent:)

Shutup, Legion. No one cares how adorable you are.

DAMN IT!!!!

You know the truth!

I was really just scanning you for structural weaknesses...

[Averdi]

justafan wrote...

I think it is safe to say that if there is one thing we Mass Effect players can all agree on is that the Council is selfish, hypocritical, and will throw you under the bus as soon as it suits them.  The Quarians were simply not influencial or important enough to warrant assistance until the war effected a species more important like the Turians or Asari.  Humans have first hand experience with this.  When the Skyllian Blitz happened "That's an Alliance issue"  When Sovereign attacked Eden Prime, "Thats an Alliance issue".  When the Collectors were wiping out entire colonies, "Thats an Alliance issue".  Its safe to say 300 years ago "That was a Quarian issue".

I think you are right in that the reaper-geth connection was never explicitly stated.  But I stand by the claim it was a reasonable justification for attacking the geth to reclaim Rannoch.

Fair enough.  We'll just have to agree to disagree regarding the last point.

[Zamnil Blackaxe]

Because Gypsies, weather space or earthbound, are scum and not to be trusted.

Though I did feel for the Quarians, every step they took when the Geth achieved awareness was pants on head retarded, I still felt for them.

[JBPBRC]

nrcrane wrote...

Not really sure why people are mostly focusing on the Quarians and how bad they are. From what I remember there were a lot of shades of gray when it came to all the different races, except for maybe the Volus or Elcor.

Quarians are getting a bad rap for trying to take back their homeworld. I agree that what they did wasn't right, but I can sympathize with their situation.

The Krogan in the past were a threat to much of the galaxy. During the game there is a point where the Primarch describes just how relentless the Krogan were and how they were pushing on Palavin. The genophage was used as a defensive weapon which I think was described in ME2 as a "gentle genocide."

In the Krogan rebellion situation the Turians were in a similar position as the Geth were with the Quarians. Yet I don't really see many people discussing how the Krogans got what they deserved and it being justice to have them slowly going extinct, when compared to the quick extinction that people seem to think the Quarians deserved on Rannoch.

And if the Quarians are racist then so are the Asari, Krogan, Salarian, Turians, and pretty much every species in the Mass Effect universe. Seems to me the Quarians are really no better or worse then any of them, but they seem to be getting a lot of hate thrown their way.

Reason Quarians are getting the focus is because they were so blatantly shown in their motivations. The other races had wiggle room/gray areas. The Krogans rose up against the galaxy and threatened to crush everyone else into dust, just like the Rachni. The Genophage was a "if we don't use this we are all going to die" situation. The Geth were attacked by their creators for asking about the meaning of life and if they were alive, it was a "we could help them grow and evolve, starting a new hallmark revolution in VI technol--nah, BURN THE WITCH!"

[justafan]

JBPBRC wrote...

D'oh. NINJA'd.

The Quarians care about the Reapers. I seem to recall the Quarians promising you their fleets if you help them end their war (no different than Wrex promising you the Krogan if the Genophage is cured, & the Salarians promising you their fleets if it's sabotaged).

The big difference here is that in some form or fashion, both the Krogan and Salarians are already fighting the Reapers, they're just not a part of Shepard's big happy family. The Quarians had zero involvement with the Reapers until after the Geth situation.

And Gerrel also mentions in Tali's loyalty mission in ME2 that the Quarians would need a world of their own to shelter civilians before they could ever assist the galaxy in repelling the reapers.

With metagaming, that doesn't make sense. Quarians threw everything and everyone into the assault on Rannoch. Including the civilians. Seems like they really don't need a planet to be committed to a massive assault, or have the concern for civilian bystanders as their most important priority.

of course they are most concened about reapers, that doesnt means that the geth, an species that as far as they know is an ally of the reapers would stop being a concern to them.
Quarians care about reapers, their condition to being able to help Shep against the reapers was having a world were to shelter noncombatants and in early me3 that what they are trying to acquire since all other colony prospects have failed.

Shepard, through Tali, has given the Quarians the knowledge that the Geth =/= Reapers all the time. Not the fault of the Geth if Tali didn't pass the information on or if the Quarians ignored it. See my above point of Quarians even throwing their Civilian Fleet at the Geth.

Edit: STOP WITH THE NINJAS!

agreed and about quarians they say theyll have ships assisting the
crucible and turians asap before Shep even says anything, so much for
having to twist their arm.

Only AFTER you help them with their NON-REAPER INVOLVED WAR. A war they could have just as easily put off until AFTER the Reaper threat.

1. It can be argued that the other races are only fighting the reapers because the reapers attacked them first.  The Salarians for example are just dandy sitting the war out until it effects them.  Actually, since the galaxy believes the geth to be allies of the reapers, the Quarians can be seen as the only race taking the offensive!

2.  I don't think it requires metagaming.  The Migrant Fleet + civilians vs. the Reapers would result in extinction.  With the anti-geth weapons, success against the geth is much higher and victory and would result in a homeworld to shelter civilians and allow the military to operate at peak effciency.  Remember, victory at Rannoch was all but guaranteed until the reapers intervened.

3. As for Tali being a reliable source of information regarding the geth.  That has already been discussed, there is plenty of reason to not fully believe her without any evidence.

[Averdi]

nrcrane wrote...

Not really sure why people are mostly focusing on the Quarians and how bad they are. From what I remember there were a lot of shades of gray when it came to all the different races, except for maybe the Volus or Elcor.

Quarians are getting a bad rap for trying to take back their homeworld. I agree that what they did wasn't right, but I can sympathize with their situation.

The Krogan in the past were a threat to much of the galaxy. During the game there is a point where the Primarch describes just how relentless the Krogan were and how they were pushing on Palavin. The genophage was used as a defensive weapon which I think was described in ME2 as a "gentle genocide."

In the Krogan rebellion situation the Turians were in a similar position as the Geth were with the Quarians. Yet I don't really see many people discussing how the Krogans got what they deserved and it being justice to have them slowly going extinct, when compared to the quick extinction that people seem to think the Quarians deserved on Rannoch.

And if the Quarians are racist then so are the Asari, Krogan, Salarian, Turians, and pretty much every species in the Mass Effect universe. Seems to me the Quarians are really no better or worse then any of them, but they seem to be getting a lot of hate thrown their way.

I also have sympathy for the quarians.  They've endured a lot, and subsequent generations more than paid for their ancestors' mistakes.  And I can understand their desire for their homeworld back.  I disapprove of the way they go about it, and of their attitute towards the geth generally, but I've never though that they or even their ancestors deserved extermination.  The geth were right to let the survivors flee, even if they weren't quite sure why.

I agree that most races in the ME universe are less than paladins of virtue.  I don't hate the quarians, or any of them, including the geth.  My perception of this thread, however, is a relative juxaposition of geth vs quarian behavior and morality, whereby I judge the geth superior.  But both deserve life, and my Shepard worked for both getting success.

Modifié par Averdi, 23 avril 2012 - 03:14 .

[Y3Y00]

Actually, I chose peace, but if I were forced to, I'd side with the Quarians, because a) they're organics the Geth sided with the Reapers voluntarily, twice. c) the Geth don't deserve freedom, regardless whether they're sentient or not, the Quarians created them, they're supposed to show subordination and obedience regardless whether it caused them harm, they shouldn't seek a purpose like 'soul' unless if the Quarians, their creators told them to.

[justafan]

Averdi wrote...

justafan wrote...

I think it is safe to say that if there is one thing we Mass Effect players can all agree on is that the Council is selfish, hypocritical, and will throw you under the bus as soon as it suits them.  The Quarians were simply not influencial or important enough to warrant assistance until the war effected a species more important like the Turians or Asari.  Humans have first hand experience with this.  When the Skyllian Blitz happened "That's an Alliance issue"  When Sovereign attacked Eden Prime, "Thats an Alliance issue".  When the Collectors were wiping out entire colonies, "Thats an Alliance issue".  Its safe to say 300 years ago "That was a Quarian issue".

I think you are right in that the reaper-geth connection was never explicitly stated.  But I stand by the claim it was a reasonable justification for attacking the geth to reclaim Rannoch.

Fair enough.  We'll just have to agree to disagree regarding the last point.

Agreed, it has been fun debating with you 

[JBPBRC]

justafan wrote...

1. It can be argued that the other races are only fighting the reapers because the reapers attacked them first.  The Salarians for example are just dandy sitting the war out until it effects them.  Actually, since the galaxy believes the geth to be allies of the reapers, the Quarians can be seen as the only race taking the offensive!

2.  I don't think it requires metagaming.  The Migrant Fleet + civilians vs. the Reapers would result in extinction.  With the anti-geth weapons, success against the geth is much higher and victory and would result in a homeworld to shelter civilians and allow the military to operate at peak effciency.  Remember, victory at Rannoch was all but guaranteed until the reapers intervened.

3. As for Tali being a reliable source of information regarding the geth.  That has already been discussed, there is plenty of reason to not fully believe her without any evidence.

1. That's because they are. Shepard warned them, they didn't listen. "Ah yes, Reapers." The only people who bothered listening to him were Anderson and Hackett. The Quarians on the other hand, would've been deadset against the Geth with or without the Reapers.

2. Migrant Fleet without civilians vs. the Reapers also = extinction. Don't really see your point.

3. ...I guess. From a Quarian point of view where everything that is Geth MUST DIE, anything that Legion or another Geth says is liable to not be believed anyhow. Even if its true.

[justafan]

JBPBRC wrote...

1. That's because they are. Shepard warned them, they didn't listen. "Ah yes, Reapers." The only people who bothered listening to him were Anderson and Hackett. The Quarians on the other hand, would've been deadset against the Geth with or without the Reapers.

2. Migrant Fleet without civilians vs. the Reapers also = extinction. Don't really see your point.

3. ...I guess. From a Quarian point of view where everything that is Geth MUST DIE, anything that Legion or another Geth says is liable to not be believed anyhow. Even if its true.

1. Talk to Gerrel in ME2, they are the only ones who DO listen and Don't  "ah yes" you away, they simply do not listen to your peace speach, and if you promote war, They do listen.

2.  Migrant Fleet - civilians vs. Reaper = loss of Migrant Fleet, if the rest of the galaxy prevails, the civilians on Rannoch survive.  It is simply safer not to place all their eggs in one basket.  Without the civilians, the fleet can at least operate without having to worry about civilian casualties, it would therefore be more effective.

3.  Everything Legion says is not liable to be believed by any organic government, Quarians included.

[JBPBRC]

justafan wrote...

JBPBRC wrote...

1. That's because they are. Shepard warned them, they didn't listen. "Ah yes, Reapers." The only people who bothered listening to him were Anderson and Hackett. The Quarians on the other hand, would've been deadset against the Geth with or without the Reapers.

2. Migrant Fleet without civilians vs. the Reapers also = extinction. Don't really see your point.

3. ...I guess. From a Quarian point of view where everything that is Geth MUST DIE, anything that Legion or another Geth says is liable to not be believed anyhow. Even if its true.

1. Talk to Gerrel in ME2, they are the only ones who DO listen and Don't  "ah yes" you away, they simply do not listen to your peace speach, and if you promote war, They do listen.

2.  Migrant Fleet - civilians vs. Reaper = loss of Migrant Fleet, if the rest of the galaxy prevails, the civilians on Rannoch survive.  It is simply safer not to place all their eggs in one basket.  Without the civilians, the fleet can at least operate without having to worry about civilian casualties, it would therefore be more effective.

3.  Everything Legion says is not liable to be believed by any organic government, Quarians included.

1. Not listening to the peace speech = dismissing you. They may not "Ah yes" you away, but they clearly think their centuries-old hatred for an opponent that doesn't hate them in return is more important than galactic survival. Supporting war with the Admirals only reinforces their petty hatreds and shows where their priorities are.

2. Yet they did place all their eggs in one basket at Rannoch. If they had to resort to that just against the Geth, the Reapers would've carved through them like a hot knife through butter. And again, there was no guarantee that the Reapers were going to be defeated, if the fleet had lost, those civilians would've died anyway.

Edit: Hell, the Quarians were getting carved up the instant the Reapers upgraded the Geth.

3. Meh. The point I was trying to make was that the only intel Quarians would believe would be one that fully supported their own beliefs about the Geth.

Modifié par JBPBRC, 23 avril 2012 - 03:39 .

[justafan]

JBPBRC wrote...

justafan wrote...


1. Talk to Gerrel in ME2, they are the only ones who DO listen and Don't  "ah yes" you away, they simply do not listen to your peace speach, and if you promote war, They do listen.

2.  Migrant Fleet - civilians vs. Reaper = loss of Migrant Fleet, if the rest of the galaxy prevails, the civilians on Rannoch survive.  It is simply safer not to place all their eggs in one basket.  Without the civilians, the fleet can at least operate without having to worry about civilian casualties, it would therefore be more effective.

3.  Everything Legion says is not liable to be believed by any organic government, Quarians included.

1. Not listening to the peace speech = dismissing you. They may not "Ah yes" you away, but they clearly think their centuries-old hatred for an opponent that doesn't hate them in return is more important than galactic survival. Supporting war with the Admirals only reinforces their petty hatreds and shows where their priorities are.

2. Yet they did place all their eggs in one basket at Rannoch. If they had to resort to that just against the Geth, the Reapers would've carved through them like a hot knife through butter. And again, there was no guarantee that the Reapers were going to be defeated, if the fleet had lost, those civilians would've died anyway.

Edit: Hell, the Quarians were getting carved up the instant the Reapers upgraded the Geth.

3. Meh. The point I was trying to make was that the only intel Quarians would believe would be one that fully supported their own beliefs about the Geth.

1.  Point is they do not dismiss the reapers, and simply belief their best chance of surviving the reapers is retaking Rannoch.

2.  Beating the geth offered the best chance of success.  Before the Reapers the Quarians were cutting through the geth like a hot knife through butter.  Also, they were pretty effective in their role in-game after Rannoch is done.  I recall them saving several planets from the reapers.  Quarians might not make a great frontline fleet, but are very good at support.

3.  Unfortunately, it just so happens that overwhelming evidence DOES support their beliefs (300 years of silence minus destruction of ships and attempted genocide at the citadel 2 years ago), and Tali's testimony would have no support.

[Jog0907]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

Unindoctrinated Qurians try to blow me up, unindoctrinated Geth are helpful.

Seems like an obvious choice.

geth willingly allowed the reapers to indoctrinate them, despite knowing they would lose their free will.

[KingWrex]

If I couldn't choose to unite them in the end I would have annihilated the geth. I love Legion and in my opinion the Quarians freaking out and destroying geth platforms over a "the question" was wrong but in the end the Geth were a liability till they proved otherwise (which they do in unity = help Quarians on Rannoch) the Krogan are a liability too. Without Wrex and Eve i pick the Salarian deal everytime.