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[alienatedflea]

4stringwizard wrote...

My apologies beforehand for the long post...

It feels like most people, if forced to choose, decided to wipe out the Quarians rather than the Geth during the Rannoch.  Which is fine and dandy by me cause it's your choice, but it's not as if it's done cause it's paragon/renegade.  The main reason given by most people seems to be:

1.  The Quarians are genocidal maniacs and had it coming.
2.  The Geth are just innocent victims in all this.  

Really?  Although I'm not very surprised since Bioware tried their darnest to paint the Geth as helpless victims in ME3, I still don't understand the amount of bias towards the Geth in this case.  First off,

1.  The Quarians weren't "genocidal maniacs".  They tried to reclaim their home world.  For crying out loud people, wouldn't you have done the same thing?  Beside, not all Quarians supported the war or the first "Morning War."  And they were attacing machines.  I repeat, MACHINES.  Whether the Geth were alive/sentient at the end is moot, but the game makes it clear that the Geth didn't achieve sentience until after they got the Reaper upgrades.  Even if they were alive/sentient, the Quarians wouldn't have known this.  For all they knew at the time, the Geth were just machines still.  Speaking of Reapers...

2.  The Geth weren't "innocent" in all this.  They sided with the Reapers not once, but TWICE over the course of the trilogy.  Yeah, the first ones to side were the "heretics", but even still, they were once true Geth.  if they could turn, why couldn't the true Geth?  At best, this shows the Geth to be untrustworthy.  As far as ME3, even if the Geth were desparate, they sided with the Reapers knowing full well what their intentions were.  Nobody is even bothered by this?  Again, this shows the Geth to be untrustworthy.  What would have stopped them from waging war against organics later to better themselves?

3.  Another pro-Geth argument I've heard is that the Geth were peaceful and let the Quarians live during the first war, when they had to chance to pursue them or wipe them out.  Well, Legion himself says the ONLY reason the Geth didn't wipe out the Quarians was because they weren't smart enough to make that decision at the time.  Even during the game, Legion basically admits to Shepard that the Geth aren't any better than organics.  (This occurs after Shepard finds out that Legion had his something from him.)  The Geth wouldn't have been more useful.  The Quarians had the largest fleet in the galaxy and the Geth were weakened if they had been destroyed rather than re-written.  

So again, I don't understand the sheer amount of bias toward the Geth in this case.  If you ask me, they were no better allies than the Quarians (maybe worse given the circumstances).  Thoughts?  

They didnt have a choice in whether to side with the reapers or not...indoctrination never gives you the option to choose but only the illusion you had free will to begin with.  and #3 makes sense, if you knew how the future wouldnt you do something different? I know I would.  If I was in the Geth's shoes, then Yes I would have wiped them out just as the Quarians were h3ll bent determined to wipe the geth. 

As for number 1, Shepard has repeatedly said and asked why not colonize another planet?! Rannoch has to be terraformed to the point that makes quarians able to live without their suits....oh wait, like any other planet they would have colonized otherwise!  Quarians stubbornness is no excuse.

[Joe1962]

I always save both.

If I couldn't I'd always destroy the Geth.

For one simple reason. I always choose the Destroy ending.

So, if the kid wasn't lying (I think he lied) the Geth die anyway.

[ubermensch007]

DevilBeast wrote...

ubermensch007 wrote...

garrusfan1 wrote...

Ibn_Shisha wrote...

I have, and will continue to, save both in each playthrough (thank god Prima is wrong about destroy heretics being a requirement for this).

I agree

How can you save both with rewrite.? On every playthrough I've done so far where I chose to "rewrite" the geth heretics. I have to pick one or the other.

I´m not exactly sure about the specifics, but I chose to rewrite the geth in ME2 and I was able to use the blue/paragon option to stop Gerrel from attacking the geth. I think, maybe, you have to do the other missions on rannoch before doing the priority one and make sure you save admiral zaal´koris.

Again, i´m not sure if that is what it takes, but it might be how you should do it.

Thanks for that. I play on Xbox 360 -- perhaps things are different on the PC version. One time I even went back to an earlier save and made sure that I was really nice to Legion, even though it was kind of being an ass. I noticed that when Legion speaks to Liara it now says, "Shepard put his faith in us.We will do the same for the Normandy." Where as before it did not say this. Because I told Legion off after the risk it took with the geth 'heretics' during the Geth Consensus Mission.

But after defeating the Reaper Destroyer.I still had to pick one side over the other. I just figured that sense the quarians had a higher number of casualties -- (since I rewrote the geth heretics) that there minds and hearts were now closed to any talk or consideration of peace with the geth.

But if it is possible to save both sides with "Rewrite" I would like to find out how. Because sometimes, even though I'm very fond of the quarian race.I sometimes feel like they still must pay heavy price for attacking my geth allies -- destroying the Dyson Sphere and refusing to back me in the war with Reapers, deciding to go to war with the geth instead.

Modifié par ubermensch007, 16 mai 2012 - 04:01 .

[j_rod2588]

I always save both, but prefer the geth.

[Siansonea]

Quarians started the conflict. They overreacted, and it's not clear why. Then you have people like Han'Gerrel, who are so blind in their hatred of the geth that they can't see how they need to question the paradigm and maybe shift gears and work with the geth. The geth defended themselves, drove out the quarians, then left them the hell alone.

And quarians seem to play pretty dirty. Even Tali, your pet quarian, will only be loyal to you if you help her cover up her father's war crimes against the geth. That's pretty despicable, if you ask me. Only Zaal'Koris seems to have an enlightened attitude about the geth and the quarians culpability in escalating that conflict.

At the center of this issue is the assumption, one that Catalyst shares, that all synthetics are inherently antagonistic toward organics. Which is absurd. Organics and synthetics can easily coexist, there are relatively few resources that they would need to compete for, and the galaxy is a big place. Why expend any effort in a pointless conflict? Synthetics would quickly calculate the risks, rewards, etc. and determine that it's easier/better just to leave organics alone. Like the geth did in the 19th Century. Organic panic is the problem, not synthetics.

Modifié par Siansonea II, 16 mai 2012 - 04:05 .

[ubermensch007]

j_rod2588 wrote...

I always save both, but prefer the geth.

How can you prefer the geth? The quarians are a beautiful race. An highly gifted and intelligent race. Self-reliant to the nth degree. And unlike the krogan who divided after the genophage. The quarians united after their great crisis -- The Morning War.

You never hear the quarians blaming the geth for everything.Like the krogan blame the genophage for next to everything that's wrong in their society. <_<

We humans may not be able to procreate with quarians -- but our two species can still -- well -- you know... Have a lot of fun together.

[Arlionis]

ubermensch007 wrote...

j_rod2588 wrote...

I always save both, but prefer the geth.

How can you prefer the geth? The quarians are a beautiful race. An highly gifted and intelligent race. Self-reliant to the nth degree. And unlike the krogan who divided after the genophage. The quarians united after their great crisis -- The Morning War.

 

Define beauty. I just see them as boring human-looking bipeds with f'ckd up legs and hands. 

 
You never hear the quarians blaming the geth for everything.Like the krogan blame the genophage for next to everything that's wrong in their society. <_<

 

Tali in ME1 is constantly blaming the Geth and the Council for the situation they're in now. In fact I never saw a Quarian having a small grade of introspect and realizing they're the only ones to be blamed for their current situation.  

 
We humans may not be able to procreate with quarians -- but our two species can still -- well -- you know... Have a lot of fun together.

Yeah, until the Quarian gets sick and starts vomiting all over you. 

[Siansonea]

ubermensch007 wrote...

j_rod2588 wrote...

I always save both, but prefer the geth.

How can you prefer the geth? The quarians are a beautiful race. An highly gifted and intelligent race. Self-reliant to the nth degree. And unlike the krogan who divided after the genophage. The quarians united after their great crisis -- The Morning War.

You never hear the quarians blaming the geth for everything.Like the krogan blame the genophage for next to everything that's wrong in their society. <_<

We humans may not be able to procreate with quarians -- but our two species can still -- well -- you know... Have a lot of fun together.

Typical. <_<

Seems like I played a different game. I seem to recall a lot of yammering by quarians (mainly Tali'Zorah vas Puberty) about the geth this and the geth that, and they're so mean, and they're so bad, blah blah blah. Meanwhile, we find out the quarians brought everything on themselves with their blind hatred and panic.

And "beautiful race"? I've never seen a quarian, just their outfits. Which are meh, in my opinion. Plus, their hands and feet are gross. And regardless, appearance does not impart worth. Even if they were "beautiful", if they're despicable jerks, I don't care how beautiful they are. And Daro'Xen and Han'Gerrel show that the leadership of the quarians is at least 50% Despicable, and Sweet Little Tali will shun you if you do the moral thing and reveal Rael'Zorah's war crimes to the Admiralty Board. If we were talking about organics, if Rael'Zorah had been performing vivisection on organics rather than synthetics, he would be Josef Mengele. But because it's synthetics, it's totally okay with people.

Typical. <_<

[moater boat]

Siansonea II wrote...

Quarians started the conflict. They overreacted, and it's not clear why. Then you have people like Han'Gerrel, who are so blind in their hatred of the geth that they can't see how they need to question the paradigm and maybe shift gears and work with the geth. The geth defended themselves, drove out the quarians, then left them the hell alone.

And quarians seem to play pretty dirty. Even Tali, your pet quarian, will only be loyal to you if you help her cover up her father's war crimes against the geth. That's pretty despicable, if you ask me. Only Zaal'Koris seems to have an enlightened attitude about the geth and the quarians culpability in escalating that conflict.

At the center of this issue is the assumption, one that Catalyst shares, that all synthetics are inherently antagonistic toward organics. Which is absurd. Organics and synthetics can easily coexist, there are relatively few resources that they would need to compete for, and the galaxy is a big place. Why expend any effort in a pointless conflict? Synthetics would quickly calculate the risks, rewards, etc. and determine that it's easier/better just to leave organics alone. Like the geth did in the 19th Century. Organic panic is the problem, not synthetics.

You know, one of the defining characteristics of a bigot is they judge people as a race instead of as individuals. There is not a single quarian alive in ME3 who "started the confilct" there are however, plenty of Geth around that are that old, who took part in the quarian genocide.

[Arlionis]

moater boat wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Quarians started the conflict. They overreacted, and it's not clear why. Then you have people like Han'Gerrel, who are so blind in their hatred of the geth that they can't see how they need to question the paradigm and maybe shift gears and work with the geth. The geth defended themselves, drove out the quarians, then left them the hell alone.

And quarians seem to play pretty dirty. Even Tali, your pet quarian, will only be loyal to you if you help her cover up her father's war crimes against the geth. That's pretty despicable, if you ask me. Only Zaal'Koris seems to have an enlightened attitude about the geth and the quarians culpability in escalating that conflict.

At the center of this issue is the assumption, one that Catalyst shares, that all synthetics are inherently antagonistic toward organics. Which is absurd. Organics and synthetics can easily coexist, there are relatively few resources that they would need to compete for, and the galaxy is a big place. Why expend any effort in a pointless conflict? Synthetics would quickly calculate the risks, rewards, etc. and determine that it's easier/better just to leave organics alone. Like the geth did in the 19th Century. Organic panic is the problem, not synthetics.

You know, one of the defining characteristics of a bigot is they judge people as a race instead of as individuals. There is not a single quarian alive in ME3 who "started the confilct" there are however, plenty of Geth around that are that old, who took part in the quarian genocide.

Geth that defended themselves, there's no such thing as "Quarian genocide". 

[moater boat]

Arlionis wrote...

moater boat wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Quarians started the conflict. They overreacted, and it's not clear why. Then you have people like Han'Gerrel, who are so blind in their hatred of the geth that they can't see how they need to question the paradigm and maybe shift gears and work with the geth. The geth defended themselves, drove out the quarians, then left them the hell alone.

And quarians seem to play pretty dirty. Even Tali, your pet quarian, will only be loyal to you if you help her cover up her father's war crimes against the geth. That's pretty despicable, if you ask me. Only Zaal'Koris seems to have an enlightened attitude about the geth and the quarians culpability in escalating that conflict.

At the center of this issue is the assumption, one that Catalyst shares, that all synthetics are inherently antagonistic toward organics. Which is absurd. Organics and synthetics can easily coexist, there are relatively few resources that they would need to compete for, and the galaxy is a big place. Why expend any effort in a pointless conflict? Synthetics would quickly calculate the risks, rewards, etc. and determine that it's easier/better just to leave organics alone. Like the geth did in the 19th Century. Organic panic is the problem, not synthetics.

You know, one of the defining characteristics of a bigot is they judge people as a race instead of as individuals. There is not a single quarian alive in ME3 who "started the confilct" there are however, plenty of Geth around that are that old, who took part in the quarian genocide.

Geth that defended themselves, there's no such thing as "Quarian genocide". 

I would say having over 99% of your race killed in a war constitutes genocide. If the Geth were "just defending themselves" casualties wouldn't be anywhere near that high. But if you want to continue to disillusion yourself, that's cool. I don't expect everyone on Earth to have a functional moral compass.

[Siansonea]

moater boat wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Quarians started the conflict. They overreacted, and it's not clear why. Then you have people like Han'Gerrel, who are so blind in their hatred of the geth that they can't see how they need to question the paradigm and maybe shift gears and work with the geth. The geth defended themselves, drove out the quarians, then left them the hell alone.

And quarians seem to play pretty dirty. Even Tali, your pet quarian, will only be loyal to you if you help her cover up her father's war crimes against the geth. That's pretty despicable, if you ask me. Only Zaal'Koris seems to have an enlightened attitude about the geth and the quarians culpability in escalating that conflict.

At the center of this issue is the assumption, one that Catalyst shares, that all synthetics are inherently antagonistic toward organics. Which is absurd. Organics and synthetics can easily coexist, there are relatively few resources that they would need to compete for, and the galaxy is a big place. Why expend any effort in a pointless conflict? Synthetics would quickly calculate the risks, rewards, etc. and determine that it's easier/better just to leave organics alone. Like the geth did in the 19th Century. Organic panic is the problem, not synthetics.

You know, one of the defining characteristics of a bigot is they judge people as a race instead of as individuals. There is not a single quarian alive in ME3 who "started the confilct" there are however, plenty of Geth around that are that old, who took part in the quarian genocide.

So, you illustrate your own point by judging the geth as a whole?

I get it, you like Tali. Maybe you want to hit that. You don't see the central moral dilemma inherent in the conflict. If geth weren't synthetic, it would be as plain as the nose on your face that they are the wronged party. The geth defended themselves, won the conflict, and then left the quarians alone for three centuries after they retreated. The quarians, on the other hand, decided they needed to "retake" their homeworld, and instead of attempting diplomacy, went straight to a military option. They could have started a new colony elsewhere in the galaxy. They could be living suit-free on a random world somewhere if they had focused on that. Or they could have negotiated a peace with the geth. But noooooo, their solution is to simply kill all the geth—people who did NOT start the war. Unless you think "does this unit have a soul" is a justification for a preemptive strike. And if you do, well, then you're pretty amoral yourself and nothing you say really means anything.

[ubermensch007]

Siansonea II wrote...

Quarians started the conflict. They overreacted, and it's not clear why. Then you have people like Han'Gerrel, who are so blind in their hatred of the geth that they can't see how they need to question the paradigm and maybe shift gears and work with the geth. The geth defended themselves, drove out the quarians, then left them the hell alone.

And quarians seem to play pretty dirty. Even Tali, your pet quarian, will only be loyal to you if you help her cover up her father's war crimes against the geth. That's pretty despicable, if you ask me. Only Zaal'Koris seems to have an enlightened attitude about the geth and the quarians culpability in escalating that conflict.

At the center of this issue is the assumption, one that Catalyst shares, that all synthetics are inherently antagonistic toward organics. Which is absurd. Organics and synthetics can easily coexist, there are relatively few resources that they would need to compete for, and the galaxy is a big place. Why expend any effort in a pointless conflict? Synthetics would quickly calculate the risks, rewards, etc. and determine that it's easier/better just to leave organics alone. Like the geth did in the 19th Century. Organic panic is the problem, not synthetics.

Hmm... well said my dear.

Interesting that you would call Tali Shepard's "pet" quarian -- seeing as how that's what she calls Legion if you side with it over her, after completing both their Loyalty Missions (if you did not disclose what Tali's father did)

What get's me is why does BioWare act like it is some great revelation that the quarians only survived the Morning war because the geth allowed it. I figured as much, about the same time Tali first told me the story of her people's exile -- the 1st time i played ME1.

Now as for Tali's loyalty mission. There are many different ways that can be viewed. One could argue that since the Migrant Fleet admiralty Board were going to destroy the Alarai.Neither Tali or Shepard had any obligation to reveal what they discovered.

One could also say that, Rael Zorah and his team payed for their moral lapse with their lives, and did succeed at preventing the geth on board from endangering the fleet.Is it really necesary to drag their names in the mud, after the fact?

But it is also fair for others to be of the opinion that Tali's father should not be treated any differently than any other quarian who is found to be guilty of Treason. All positions on this issue in my view are valid. We are left to decide.

I persoanlly do not believe the quarians overreacted. In ME2 Legion tells us what I believe to be the true story of what happened at the dawn of thier intelligence.When it says to Shepard after playing their oldest audio recording.
"This was the first time that a creator became afraid.When a geth unit asked if it had a soul."

In a way, I agree with Admiral Xen when she says, "We didn't try to kill the geth.We tried to deactivate them." from the quarians perspective (even from what we see in the Geth Consensus mission, quarians tinkering with a geth to ascertain why the geth is not doing what its told) the quarians saw the geth as malfunctioning software programs.Nothing more.I'm not a computer programmer.But I think they had a valid viewpoint. Software creators are all to familiar with how their programs can sometimes act in bizarre ways -- have "glitches in the matrix" as they say.

When the geth asked did it have a soul.The quarians believed it was just corrupted software.That could not be salvaged.So it must be deleted.

[Siansonea]

moater boat wrote...

Arlionis wrote...

moater boat wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Quarians started the conflict. They overreacted, and it's not clear why. Then you have people like Han'Gerrel, who are so blind in their hatred of the geth that they can't see how they need to question the paradigm and maybe shift gears and work with the geth. The geth defended themselves, drove out the quarians, then left them the hell alone.

And quarians seem to play pretty dirty. Even Tali, your pet quarian, will only be loyal to you if you help her cover up her father's war crimes against the geth. That's pretty despicable, if you ask me. Only Zaal'Koris seems to have an enlightened attitude about the geth and the quarians culpability in escalating that conflict.

At the center of this issue is the assumption, one that Catalyst shares, that all synthetics are inherently antagonistic toward organics. Which is absurd. Organics and synthetics can easily coexist, there are relatively few resources that they would need to compete for, and the galaxy is a big place. Why expend any effort in a pointless conflict? Synthetics would quickly calculate the risks, rewards, etc. and determine that it's easier/better just to leave organics alone. Like the geth did in the 19th Century. Organic panic is the problem, not synthetics.

You know, one of the defining characteristics of a bigot is they judge people as a race instead of as individuals. There is not a single quarian alive in ME3 who "started the confilct" there are however, plenty of Geth around that are that old, who took part in the quarian genocide.

Geth that defended themselves, there's no such thing as "Quarian genocide". 

I would say having over 99% of your race killed in a war constitutes genocide. If the Geth were "just defending themselves" casualties wouldn't be anywhere near that high. But if you want to continue to disillusion yourself, that's cool. I don't expect everyone on Earth to have a functional moral compass.

If people attack you, and you kill most of the people that attack you, it's not really the same as "genocide". Genocide is extermination.

And where are you getting this "99%" figure from, exactly?

[N7Gold]

I'm sympathetic to both quarians and Geth. When I first played ME1, I had no sympathy for the Geth until I played ME2 and met Legion and found out what the Geth are really like. When I played ME3 and got to the mission where Shepard enters a virtual world, I saw a side of the quarians that I never knew they had. I then realized that just because the quarians tried to kill off all Geth, even the ones that are partnered with civilian quarians doesn't mean the entire race are genocidal maniacs. It means that while neither side is guilty, both are innocent and have made mistakes. For the quarians, it's their inbred organic paranoia of synthetics killing off all organic life that compelled them to attempt to kill off the Geth. As for the Geth, they had no intention of murdering all organics unlike most organics are raised to believe, they just want to live and evolve like any other living being would, and when the paranoid quarians attacked them, they felt the need to defend themselves.

So, for people who support the quarians or geth instead of both, you all are wrong-- both sides are innocent, there is just a lot of misunderstandings there. If you played ME1 before playing ME2 or ME3, you'd believe the Geth are genocidal synthetics, so don't be a hypocrite.

[ubermensch007]

Arlionis wrote...

ubermensch007 wrote...

j_rod2588 wrote...

I always save both, but prefer the geth.

How can you prefer the geth? The quarians are a beautiful race. An highly gifted and intelligent race. Self-reliant to the nth degree. And unlike the krogan who divided after the genophage. The quarians united after their great crisis -- The Morning War.

 

Define beauty. I just see them as boring human-looking bipeds with f'ckd up legs and hands. 

 
You never hear the quarians blaming the geth for everything.Like the krogan blame the genophage for next to everything that's wrong in their society. <_<

 

Tali in ME1 is constantly blaming the Geth and the Council for the situation they're in now. In fact I never saw a Quarian having a small grade of introspect and realizing they're the only ones to be blamed for their current situation.  

 
We humans may not be able to procreate with quarians -- but our two species can still -- well -- you know... Have a lot of fun together.

Yeah, until the Quarian gets sick and starts vomiting all over you.

Well... I guess you weren't with Tali in ME3.Because overtime they build up an immunity. So that wouldn't be an issue.And some people are into having a lovers body fluids on thier body. Not that I'm saying that I'm one of those type of persons -- myself.

[Siansonea]

ubermensch007 wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Quarians started the conflict. They overreacted, and it's not clear why. Then you have people like Han'Gerrel, who are so blind in their hatred of the geth that they can't see how they need to question the paradigm and maybe shift gears and work with the geth. The geth defended themselves, drove out the quarians, then left them the hell alone.

And quarians seem to play pretty dirty. Even Tali, your pet quarian, will only be loyal to you if you help her cover up her father's war crimes against the geth. That's pretty despicable, if you ask me. Only Zaal'Koris seems to have an enlightened attitude about the geth and the quarians culpability in escalating that conflict.

At the center of this issue is the assumption, one that Catalyst shares, that all synthetics are inherently antagonistic toward organics. Which is absurd. Organics and synthetics can easily coexist, there are relatively few resources that they would need to compete for, and the galaxy is a big place. Why expend any effort in a pointless conflict? Synthetics would quickly calculate the risks, rewards, etc. and determine that it's easier/better just to leave organics alone. Like the geth did in the 19th Century. Organic panic is the problem, not synthetics.

Hmm... well said my dear.

Interesting that you would call Tali Shepard's "pet" quarian -- seeing as how that's what she calls Legion if you side with it over her, after completing both their Loyalty Missions (if you did not disclose what Tali's father did)

What get's me is why does BioWare act like it is some great revelation that the quarians only survived the Morning war because the geth allowed it. I figured as much, about the same time Tali first told me the story of her people's exile -- the 1st time i played ME1.

Now as for Tali's loyalty mission. There are many different ways that can be viewed. One could argue that since the Migrant Fleet admiralty Board were going to destroy the Alarai.Neither Tali or Shepard had any obligation to reveal what they discovered.

Disagree. If you have knowledge of a crime, especially a crime against an entire species, it is your moral duty to bring it to light. Why should Rael'Zorah's "memory" take precedence over the truth?

One could also say that, Rael Zorah and his team payed for their moral lapse with their lives, and did succeed at preventing the geth on board from endangering the fleet.Is it really necesary to drag their names in the mud, after the fact?

Yes. They committed CRIMES, by the standards of their own people, even. Just sweeping that under the rug is unconscionable.

But it is also fair for others to be of the opinion that Tali's father should not be treated any differently than any other quarian who is found to be guilty of Treason. All positions on this issue in my view are valid. We are left to decide.

I persoanlly do not believe the quarians overreacted. In ME2 Legion tells us what I believe to be the true story of what happened at the dawn of thier intelligence.When it says to Shepard after playing their oldest audio recording.
"This was the first time that a creator became afraid.When a geth unit asked if it had a soul."

In a way, I agree with Admiral Xen when she says, "We didn't try to kill the geth.We tried to deactivate them." from the quarians perspective (even from what we see in the Geth Consensus mission, quarians tinkering with a geth to ascertain why the geth is not doing what its told) the quarians saw the geth as malfunctioning software programs.Nothing more.I'm not a computer programmer.But I think they had a valid viewpoint. Software creators are all to familiar with how their programs can sometimes act in bizarre ways -- have "glitches in the matrix" as they say.

When the geth asked did it have a soul.The quarians believed it was just corrupted software.That could not be salvaged.So it must be deleted.

Then at best it was a misunderstanding, at worst it was a deliberate attempt to kill a nascent intelligence. Either way, it's not really the geth's fault. They were defending themselves from being exterminated. The quarians' response at every point thereafter only escalated the misunderstanding, if that's what it was. And Daro'Xen's refusal to accept the geth as a living species only shows how deep their denial goes, "deactivate" indeed. She wants to ENSLAVE the geth. Daro'Xen is NOT somebody I would be quoting if I was trying to demonstrate the reasonable attitudes of quarians.

[DevilBeast]

ubermensch007 wrote...

j_rod2588 wrote...

I always save both, but prefer the geth.

How can you prefer the geth? The quarians are a beautiful race. An highly gifted and intelligent race. Self-reliant to the nth degree. And unlike the krogan who divided after the genophage. The quarians united after their great crisis -- The Morning War.

You never hear the quarians blaming the geth for everything.Like the krogan blame the genophage for next to everything that's wrong in their society. <_<

We humans may not be able to procreate with quarians -- but our two species can still -- well -- you know... Have a lot of fun together.

Well, you just have fun with getting Quarians sick, I´ll be at the Azure hotel on Illium;)

[Arlionis]

moater boat wrote...

Arlionis wrote...

moater boat wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Quarians started the conflict. They overreacted, and it's not clear why. Then you have people like Han'Gerrel, who are so blind in their hatred of the geth that they can't see how they need to question the paradigm and maybe shift gears and work with the geth. The geth defended themselves, drove out the quarians, then left them the hell alone.

And quarians seem to play pretty dirty. Even Tali, your pet quarian, will only be loyal to you if you help her cover up her father's war crimes against the geth. That's pretty despicable, if you ask me. Only Zaal'Koris seems to have an enlightened attitude about the geth and the quarians culpability in escalating that conflict.

At the center of this issue is the assumption, one that Catalyst shares, that all synthetics are inherently antagonistic toward organics. Which is absurd. Organics and synthetics can easily coexist, there are relatively few resources that they would need to compete for, and the galaxy is a big place. Why expend any effort in a pointless conflict? Synthetics would quickly calculate the risks, rewards, etc. and determine that it's easier/better just to leave organics alone. Like the geth did in the 19th Century. Organic panic is the problem, not synthetics.

You know, one of the defining characteristics of a bigot is they judge people as a race instead of as individuals. There is not a single quarian alive in ME3 who "started the confilct" there are however, plenty of Geth around that are that old, who took part in the quarian genocide.

Geth that defended themselves, there's no such thing as "Quarian genocide". 

I would say having over 99% of your race killed in a war constitutes genocide. If the Geth were "just defending themselves" casualties wouldn't be anywhere near that high. But if you want to continue to disillusion yourself, that's cool. I don't expect everyone on Earth to have a functional moral compass.

In ME3 we saw how immensely irrational and stupid the Quarians are,  to the point they sacrificed their own liveships even when they could have escaped from that star system and save their own civilians pretty easily. We can assumed that they kept throwing themselves at a superior enemy like brainless lemmings even when it was obvious they were already defeated. 

[Pottumuusi]

Siansonea II wrote...

If people attack you, and you kill most of the people that attack you, it's not really the same as "genocide". Genocide is extermination.

And where are you getting this "99%" figure from, exactly?

If genocide is extermination then I suppose the Holocaust wasn't a genocide, hmm?

I actually couldn't give less of a f*** who started it, it doesn't justify genocide (or murder or whatever you wish to call it, lets not start arguing semantics).

[JBPBRC]

moater boat wrote...

You know, one of the defining characteristics of a bigot is they judge people as a race instead of as individuals. There is not a single quarian alive in ME3 who "started the confilct"

You're absolutely correct. THESE Quarians started a whole NEW conflict. In the middle of a REAPER INVASION. <_<

[ubermensch007]

Siansonea II wrote...

ubermensch007 wrote...

j_rod2588 wrote...

I always save both, but prefer the geth.

How can you prefer the geth? The quarians are a beautiful race. An highly gifted and intelligent race. Self-reliant to the nth degree. And unlike the krogan who divided after the genophage. The quarians united after their great crisis -- The Morning War.

You never hear the quarians blaming the geth for everything.Like the krogan blame the genophage for next to everything that's wrong in their society. <_<

We humans may not be able to procreate with quarians -- but our two species can still -- well -- you know... Have a lot of fun together.

Typical. <_<

Seems like I played a different game. I seem to recall a lot of yammering by quarians (mainly Tali'Zorah vas Puberty) about the geth this and the geth that, and they're so mean, and they're so bad, blah blah blah. Meanwhile, we find out the quarians brought everything on themselves with their blind hatred and panic.

And "beautiful race"? I've never seen a quarian, just their outfits. Which are meh, in my opinion. Plus, their hands and feet are gross. And regardless, appearance does not impart worth. Even if they were "beautiful", if they're despicable jerks, I don't care how beautiful they are. And Daro'Xen and Han'Gerrel show that the leadership of the quarians is at least 50% Despicable, and Sweet Little Tali will shun you if you do the moral thing and reveal Rael'Zorah's war crimes to the Admiralty Board. If we were talking about organics, if Rael'Zorah had been performing vivisection on organics rather than synthetics, he would be Josef Mengele. But because it's synthetics, it's totally okay with people.

Typical. <_<

I don't know if you ever saw Battle: Los Angeles (Great film, I thought it was just going to be a bunch of pro-military proporganda.But I was wrong.) but their is a very disturbing scene where Aaron Eckhart's character manages to take down one of the alien invaders and decides to do an impromptu  live autopsy.In order to find out how to kill the damn thing. Now that might turn your stomach and say what you will. but if I were in his place.I would hope that I would have had the stones to do as he did.Because the intel he gathered was invaluable to Earth's resistence forces.

I have no idea why everyone was acting like what Rael did was so wrong.It makes sense to find out if your weapons are going to have any destructive affect on your enemies. Where Admiral Rael Zorah crossed the line. Was by doing all this "off the books" and endangering the fleet.

[moater boat]

Siansonea II wrote...

moater boat wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Quarians started the conflict. They overreacted, and it's not clear why. Then you have people like Han'Gerrel, who are so blind in their hatred of the geth that they can't see how they need to question the paradigm and maybe shift gears and work with the geth. The geth defended themselves, drove out the quarians, then left them the hell alone.

And quarians seem to play pretty dirty. Even Tali, your pet quarian, will only be loyal to you if you help her cover up her father's war crimes against the geth. That's pretty despicable, if you ask me. Only Zaal'Koris seems to have an enlightened attitude about the geth and the quarians culpability in escalating that conflict.

At the center of this issue is the assumption, one that Catalyst shares, that all synthetics are inherently antagonistic toward organics. Which is absurd. Organics and synthetics can easily coexist, there are relatively few resources that they would need to compete for, and the galaxy is a big place. Why expend any effort in a pointless conflict? Synthetics would quickly calculate the risks, rewards, etc. and determine that it's easier/better just to leave organics alone. Like the geth did in the 19th Century. Organic panic is the problem, not synthetics.

You know, one of the defining characteristics of a bigot is they judge people as a race instead of as individuals. There is not a single quarian alive in ME3 who "started the confilct" there are however, plenty of Geth around that are that old, who took part in the quarian genocide.

So, you illustrate your own point by judging the geth as a whole?

I get it, you like Tali. Maybe you want to hit that. You don't see the central moral dilemma inherent in the conflict. If geth weren't synthetic, it would be as plain as the nose on your face that they are the wronged party. The geth defended themselves, won the conflict, and then left the quarians alone for three centuries after they retreated. The quarians, on the other hand, decided they needed to "retake" their homeworld, and instead of attempting diplomacy, went straight to a military option. They could have started a new colony elsewhere in the galaxy. They could be living suit-free on a random world somewhere if they had focused on that. Or they could have negotiated a peace with the geth. But noooooo, their solution is to simply kill all the geth—people who did NOT start the war. Unless you think "does this unit have a soul" is a justification for a preemptive strike. And if you do, well, then you're pretty amoral yourself and nothing you say really means anything.

Wow, you obviously weren't paying attention.
First of all, as I clearly said earlier, there is no reason to think that many of the Geth alive at the time of ME3 didn't take part in the morning war. Those that were created afterwards have access to the perfectly recorded memory of other Geth. Every single Geth knows exactly what happened. I am not judging them as a race, I am judging them as a group of individuals. Individuals who took part in genocide.

Now let me go through your other statements and disassemble them.

"and then left the quarians alone for three centuries after they retreated"

The Geth didn't just leave the quarians alone, they left EVERYONE alone, and as an added measure, killed every single organic they came in contact with for 300 years. They were murderous and xenophobic

"The quarians, on the other hand, decided they needed to "retake" their
homeworld, and instead of attempting diplomacy, went straight to a
military option."

It's hard to use diplomacy with an enemy that shoots on sight. Even if there were a way around that, the Geth could have just as easily used diplomacy as well, but they didn't, so this argument is null and void.

"They could have started a new colony elsewhere in the galaxy."

No, not really. The quarians were ideally suited for Rannoch and vice-versa, the Geth, on the other hand, can literally live almost anywhere in the galaxy. If the Geth REALLY cared about peace or if they REALLY wanted to be friendly with the Quarians, like they pretend at the end of the Rannoch campaign, they would have just LEFT RANNOCH. But they didn't, because they ONLY care about themselves.

I'm not saying the quarians were all innocent victims (though a larger percentage of those that were killed probably were) All I am saying is that the Geth are xenophic, two-faced, genocidal, self-centered ****holes that are not to be trusted.

Modifié par moater boat, 16 mai 2012 - 04:59 .

[moater boat]

Siansonea II wrote...


If people attack you, and you kill most of the people that attack you, it's not really the same as "genocide". Genocide is extermination.

And where are you getting this "99%" figure from, exactly?

Genocide doesn't need to kill EVERYONE for it be genocide.

The 99% comes from the quarian pre-war population and the quarian post war population. They went from several billion to 17 million.

[moater boat]

JBPBRC wrote...

moater boat wrote...

You know, one of the defining characteristics of a bigot is they judge people as a race instead of as individuals. There is not a single quarian alive in ME3 who "started the confilct"

You're absolutely correct. THESE Quarians started a whole NEW conflict. In the middle of a REAPER INVASION. <_<

I agree that wasn't exactly a smart move, but in their defense, as far as they knew, the Geth were still working with the Reapers (that's a hard reputation to shake) So from their point of view, they WERE fighting the Reaper war.