861 réponses à ce sujet

[Pathero]

You need to be aware that some Quarians died to protect the Geth as the emerged into sentience. Also note the majority of the civillian population opposed the renewed conflict, but because of thesetup of the Quarian political system, they had to fight.
You can feel free to draw parralels to any modern war of your choosing where a Government decides to go blow the seven shades of sheep dip out of people who ain't our kind of people 'for the greater good'. For me the parallel is startling.

To judge the Quarians for the action of their government is shameful, particularly when their very form of government prevents them from protesting.

And look what you gain when they are reunited, Geth and Quarians working and living together. And not just cohabiting, but developing a symbiosis between them (do not forget in the ME1 codex where it states that the Quarians make use of cybernetics) just think where they could go together.
Synthesis? Who needs Ya?

[Elite Midget]

Mr. C wrote...

G Kevin wrote...

Dranks wrote...

It was a terrible choice to have to make. In the end though I would have to choose Quarians (won't have to though because I make SURE that my Paragon is high enough to broker peace). In the end, despite how terrible I would feel, the geth can be recreated. They are synthetic. If the Quarian race died, they're gone. You can't just rebuild a Quarian. They're gone forever.

This too. Shepard is in no position to eliminate a certain race from the galaxy.

Good thing he doesn't. The Quarians, by Gerral's order, wipes out the Geth. All Shepard does is prevent Legion from uploading the Reaper-Code.  It's closer to murdering your good buddy rather than his entire species!
.............. LEGION WHYYYYY

If that helps you sleep at night. That's like saying you didn't commit genocide when you kill the guy about to fire a missile to stop a giant bomb from wiping out his entire race. Your action and inaction lead to genocide, you played a part in it. You can't deny responsibilty just because you didn't pull the last trigger, you stopped the guy that could have ended it knowing full well that Legions premature death, before the code is uploaded, will doom the Geth.

[4stringwizard]

I forgot to add one more point: the Geth DO end up committing genocide if you side with them over the Quarians. So it seems the Geth are just as capable of the Quarians of committing atrocities.

Again, at best, both sides are equally peaceful/barbaric.

I suppose I should also give my stance too: if forced to choose, I definitely would have chosen the Quarians.

Modifié par 4stringwizard, 09 avril 2012 - 11:53 .

[rex285]

G Kevin wrote...

rex285 wrote...

G Kevin wrote...

rex285 wrote...

Olueq wrote...

bclagge wrote...

MY Shep made it clear all along that she supported the Geth in their bid for independence. I never wanted the Quarians to be defeated and attempted to broker peace continually. But at every turn the Quarians ignored my orders and attempted to exterminate the Geth, even to the point of nearly killing me when I was in the Geth Dreadnaught. So when the Quarians were going to take advantage of the Geth's weakened state and exterminate them, behaving as evilly as any cruel conqueror in history, I had no choice but to step in and support the Geth. They brought it upon themselves.

It was a tragedy that Tali took her own life, but ultimately that was pretty selfish of her. Even though her people had (deservedly) been decimated she still had a duty to the entire galaxy, to ME. Are the Quarians all that mattered to her? She abandoned me in my hour of need! In the darkest days of the Reaper invasion! I'm commander ****ing Shepard! I can't believe I meant so little to her, not to mention the rest of the crew. What about poor Garrus? He'll be so lonely.

People like you are disgusting. Yes, millions of innocents deserve to die because of ONE person. Gerrel was the only reason the quarians were still there. The entire civilian fleet didnt even want to fight. Honestly you people are a digrace.

Yes Gerrel pushed for war, but not a SINGLE quarian tried to stop him. The other pilots could have said, "**** this" and left or he could have been imprisoned for trying to drag their entire race into war because as you said, "he was a single person"... But alas, not a single Quarian tried to stop the war besides saying they disagreed. 

It does not work that way. The public DID say that they were against the war but the admirals went on anyway. The thing to keep in mind is the Quarians had nobody left to help them but their leaders. They HAD NO CHOICE.

There were plenty of other Quarians who were on the command deck who could have done something. In most military codes, there is a rule that allows for a mutiny if their CO goes bat**** insane and starting a genocidal war that the majority of the people believe is wrong sounds like a good reason for a mutiny. Besides, as was said, "He was only ONE person.

And who says the Quarians follow the chain of command like we do now? It's not like the civilians could pack up and leave.

I doubt their command structure wouldn't have something that protects them from captain going crazy; especially, since they live entriely on ships. Also the civilians can do EXACTLY that, there are only four admirals and only one of them that truly believes in the war. I guarentee that they would never fire on a civlian ship that tries to leave and if they did i doubt the other ships would not allow that to occur without MASSIVE repurcussions against their command.

[moater boat]

People are easily brainwashed by Bioware. Most people that can think for themselves would side with the quarians over the Geth.

[ticklefist]

I've gone for peace in all my play throughs but now I wanna see what it's like to take out the geth. They deserve it. Always joining in questionable alliances, wholesale destruction of human colonies, attack on the citadel, attacking their greatest sympathizer, and with them joining up with the reapers AGAIN in ME3, proving that no amount of reprogramming will ever keep the galaxy safe from them permanently.

[fr33stylez]

Hogge87 wrote...

fr33stylez wrote...

While I found the Quarians (except Tali and a few others) very annoying, justifying the Geth turning to the Reapers out of 'desperation' is ridiculous.

How many people would be fine if the Krogan turned to the Reapers for help to fight the Salarians? Hell, isn't this what Wrex essentially proposed on Vimire in ME1?

During WWII, Finland was allied with Germany. Not because they sympathised with the Germans, but because they were all alone when the Soviet Union attacked (apart from Sweden which secretly sent 10 000 volounteers and a few really old planes). Do you think that what they did was wrong?

The Reapers are a lot more serious than siding with Germany in WWII, to be honest. Even though **** Germany is notorious throughout history, Stalin-ruled USSR objectively speaking wasn't any better. Even so, the Finns also killed many Soviets in concentration camps similar to that of **** Germany, so yes, the Finns were very wrong.

The Reapers are even worse than any side, as they are a threat to ALL sentient organics and synthetics. And of course, are the primary antagonist of the series.

[Elite Midget]

Pathero wrote...

You need to be aware that some Quarians died to protect the Geth as the emerged into sentience. Also note the majority of the civillian population opposed the renewed conflict, but because of thesetup of the Quarian political system, they had to fight.
You can feel free to draw parralels to any modern war of your choosing where a Government decides to go blow the seven shades of sheep dip out of people who ain't our kind of people 'for the greater good'. For me the parallel is startling.

To judge the Quarians for the action of their government is shameful, particularly when their very form of government prevents them from protesting.

And look what you gain when they are reunited, Geth and Quarians working and living together. And not just cohabiting, but developing a symbiosis between them (do not forget in the ME1 codex where it states that the Quarians make use of cybernetics) just think where they could go together.
Synthesis? Who needs Ya?

A people is represented by their leading bodies. They could have easily demanded change but were content fanning the fires of war just as long as they got back what was there and erase their "mistake". The people aren't guilt free, they had the power to bring about change and ignore 1 Admiral when the others wanted peace. Instead they sided with the Warmonger over the others because the Warmonger carried the views the majority agreed with.

[Esker02]

Elite Midget wrote...

Though if you had to choose...

I personally would kill of the racist Quarians. They're worthless compared to the surperior Geth, who don't judge and carry out their orders to the very end, and they must live in special suit, where a single tear can kill them, and eat specific food types. The Geth are simply the better choice and also reinforce how wrong the Godchild was about Synthetics.

You would kill the quarians because, as you say, they are "racist." What? That in itself is a racist attitude. You're characterizing an entire species because of the actions and attitudes of a few that you choose to remember.

At least with the geth, we can safely characterize them as a whole species due to their collective nature. We know what we're dealing with when we talk about the geth. But to do the same with the qurians is a big mistake. To presume that all you're losing is a bunch of "racists" is to ignore all of the members of the species who are anything but (and there is a certian squadmate who is with you through all three games that disproves your assertion right off the bat. Gee. Who was she again?)

[wantedman dan]

Olueq wrote...

Okay... you HAVE to be trolling. The quarians dont all wnat to fight and that is made obvious. The problem is that all the fleets rely on eachother to survive so the civilian fleet essentially is conscripted to fight for their survival. Again, this is CLEARLY stated on the dreadnaught.

Irony: I thought that about you, too. That does not, however, mitigate the fact that not wanting to fight and fighting still =/= consciencious objection.

Sorry for that inherent weakness in their society and their obvious flaw in strategy, but consequences matter.

[Exeider]

Elite Midget wrote...

Brosome wrote...

Elite Midget wrote...

Brosome wrote...

Elite Midget wrote...

Brosome wrote...

I'll just say this:

NO ONE deserves extinction.

Though if you had to choose...

I personally would kill of the racist Quarians. They're worthless compared to the surperior Geth, who don't judge and carry out their orders to the very end, and they must live in special suit, where a single tear can kill them, and eat specific food types. The Geth are simply the better choice and also reinforce how wrong the Godchild was about Synthetics.

You disgust me.

You would let both die since you seem to lack the ability to choose. The Racist Quarians who, throughout ME1-ME3, never attempted diplomacy and tried to wipe out the Geth. Even when warned to stop attacking due to GEth upgrading they dig their own grave. The Quarians deserve their extinction due to their inability to let go of their hatred and racist tendencies.

What? Lack ability to- What?!

I choose peace every damn time. It's the ONLY option that doesn't end with my humanity being destroyed.

Than why are you even here? I told you that if you HAD to choose between one or the other and you pass it off because you went peace. I'm not discuessing the peace option I'm discuessing the ONE OR THE OTHER option. If you wont partake in that than there's no point in you replying.

then the logic of your question is circular because there is IN FACT a third option, in fact in reality there are limitless options available but only one outcome.

To directly answer your question, the answer is NONE, I wouldn't sacrifice one over the other, because in either case it's just wrong!!!!

-AE

[Olueq]

geth technology can still be useful when deactivated so wouldnt you gain more from siding with the quarians if you HAVE to choose? The geth also have a bad habbit of willingly siding with the reapers. Whats to stop them from just turning on you in the final battle if they feel the reapers have the upper hand?

[4stringwizard]

wantedman dan wrote...

Olueq wrote...

Okay... you HAVE to be trolling. The quarians dont all wnat to fight and that is made obvious. The problem is that all the fleets rely on eachother to survive so the civilian fleet essentially is conscripted to fight for their survival. Again, this is CLEARLY stated on the dreadnaught.

Irony: I thought that about you, too. That does not, however, mitigate the fact that not wanting to fight and fighting still =/= consciencious objection.

Sorry for that inherent weakness in their society and their obvious flaw in strategy, but consequences matter.

Going by your skewed logic though, that means the Geth are equally at fault for not stopping the heretics. 

[rex285]

rex285 wrote...

4stringwizard wrote...

1.  The Quarians weren't "genocidal maniacs".  They tried to reclaim their home world.  For crying out loud people, wouldn't you have done the same thing?  Beside, not all Quarians supported the war or the first "Morning War."  And they were attacing machines.  I repeat, MACHINES.  Whether the Geth were alive/sentient at the end is moot, but the game makes it clear that the Geth didn't achieve sentience until after they got the Reaper upgrades.  Even if they were alive/sentient, the Quarians wouldn't have known this.  For all they knew at the time, the Geth were just machines still.  Speaking of Reapers...

 

They still had control of their world when they began attacking the Geth. You need to remeber that the Quarians began attacking the Geth because they were questioning their existance. Also the believed they had gained sentience because they began questioning, "Does this Unit have a soul?" if that isn't a sign of sentience then I don't know what is. Not until the Geth faced certain death did they begin fighting back. Even in some occasions they only faught back to protect their Quarian Masters. 

 
2.  The Geth weren't "innocent" in all this.  They sided with the Reapers not once, but TWICE over the course of the trilogy.  Yeah, the first ones to side were the "heretics", but even still, they were once true Geth.  if they could turn, why couldn't the true Geth?  At best, this shows the Geth to be untrustworthy.  As far as ME3, even if the Geth were desparate, they sided with the Reapers knowing full well what their intentions were.  Nobody is even bothered by this?  Again, this shows the Geth to be untrustworthy.  What would have stopped them from waging war against organics later to better themselves?

 

So by your logic, If I were to go on a killing spree in the name of the Russian Government. I could blame you and say that you were just as guilty because you are also a human being who could also commit the same atrocities.

 
Yes, they sided with the reapers and knew what would happen, but they did so because it was either submit to their will or face extinction at the hands of the Reapers. Anyway, what gives the Quarians the right to send the Geth to extinction? Legion even states that they have no intentions of going to war with the Quarians and would be more than willing to accept them back to Rannoch. The Geth even went as far as to clean up and restore Rannoch to what it was before the Morning war. 

 
3.  Another pro-Geth argument I've heard is that the Geth were peaceful and let the Quarians live during the first war, when they had to chance to pursue them or wipe them out.  Well, Legion himself says the ONLY reason the Geth didn't wipe out the Quarians was because they weren't smart enough to make that decision at the time.  Even during the game, Legion basically admits to Shepard that the Geth aren't any better than organics.  (This occurs after Shepard finds out that Legion had his something from him.)  The Geth wouldn't have been more useful.  The Quarians had the largest fleet in the galaxy and the Geth were weakened if they had been destroyed rather than re-written.  

 
 
 
Start watching at 3:40

Legion states that they didn't wipe out the Quarians because they had attained freedom and the threat of the Quarians was over. He never once states that they didn't do it because they weren't smart enough. He says that they couldn't caluculate the FUTURE problems that could occur from sending the Quarians in to extinction. 

Yes, the Quarians had the largest fleet, but their fleet was made up of old ships that had been jury-rigged to stay together. The codex states that many of their ships are from the original exodus from the Morning war. Also counting that basically their entire population lives on the ships, I guarentee that the majority are not war ships. While the Geth had massive numbers of ships, not up to par with the quarians, but their ships could definately handle themselves well as we see in the Battle of the Citadel. 

[Elite Midget]

4stringwizard wrote...

I forgot to add one more point: the Geth DO end up committing genocide if you side with them over the Quarians. So it seems the Geth are just as capable of the Quarians of committing atrocities.

Again, at best, both sides are equally peaceful/barbaric.

I suppose I should also give my stance too: if forced to choose, I definitely would have chosen the Quarians.

It was self-defence and the Geth were in the moment of being upgraded and breaking free from Reaper control. THey had no control on their actions, they acted  out of instict to perserve themselves. This is made adamantly clear in the Peace option where the Geth ignore the Quarian fleet when the Quarians pull back.

The Quarians on the other hand attack if you pick one or the other. The Geth aren't at fault even when their hand was forced because when the Quarians pull back no race is wiped out.

Modifié par Elite Midget, 09 avril 2012 - 11:57 .

[Aramina]

MakeMineMako wrote...

Peace is THE ONLY OPTION as far as I'm concerned.

The Geth never asked for war. Nor did the Quarian people.

Saving both is they best route to take.

Wow...I'm slightly blown away by the strong reactions this is bringing out in people

I agree with the above. Peace is the only option my Shep could have lived with. However, if forced to choose a side, I would have to say I'd choose the Geth. Both sides have their faults, and both sides have just as much right to exist in my opinion. What tips the scales in the Geth's favor for me is the fact that in almost every single case of Quarian/Geth conflict, the Quarians are the aggressors. The fact that they still lost doesn't change that. I do say almost because in 1 and 2 we saw the Heretics attacking other races, Quarians included. However, as Legion said several times, they were not the main faction of the Geth, and in the case of Tali's mission on Haestrom...if a species had attacked mine every time we met, and they took a trip out to a world my species was occupying, I think I wouldn't want them there either.

So sorry Tali, but if forced to choose, I would pick the side that didn't initiate the war.

[G Kevin]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

This boils down to a disturbing question in the end.

Do you judge a group on the merit of their actions or the function of their form?

Whether the OP and the rest of you know this or not, this argument has been going around for years on this forum. Geth or Quarian, Quarian or Geth. Who's right and who's wrong?

Every time, it boils down to a difference of opinion on the above question. Why would I pick a synthetic over an organic? The geth aren't sentient. The geth aren't deserving of protection. If your toaster/computer/phone/electrical-mechanical device gained sentience, you'd freak out.

All of these are old arguments.

Ultimately, the only thing that matters is where you stand on that question.

Answer honestly, if you were part of a single blind experiment in which the actions of two species were presented to you without context on the nature of those species, who would you side with? Species A, the geth, or Species B, the quarians? If all you knew about them was their actions toward each other, who would you side with?

Species A: Became aware, attacked in self defense, won their war, killed anyone who tried coming back, did not care for the rest of the galaxy.

Species B: Attacked their creation, some tried to protect them but military leaders disagreed, lost war, condemed by rest of galaxy, questioned their decisions.

Really hard to say based on actions because you would need to know which actions are considered. 

So far I tried to keep it unbiased but I can't tell. I pick Species B because they reflected on their decision even after they were condemned.

[wantedman dan]

Olueq wrote...

geth technology can still be useful when deactivated so wouldnt you gain more from siding with the quarians if you HAVE to choose? The geth also have a bad habbit of willingly siding with the reapers. Whats to stop them from just turning on you in the final battle if they feel the reapers have the upper hand?

What's to stop anyone from doing that? Your no true scotsman fallacy goes noted.

[Olueq]

wantedman dan wrote...

Olueq wrote...

Okay... you HAVE to be trolling. The quarians dont all wnat to fight and that is made obvious. The problem is that all the fleets rely on eachother to survive so the civilian fleet essentially is conscripted to fight for their survival. Again, this is CLEARLY stated on the dreadnaught.

Irony: I thought that about you, too. That does not, however, mitigate the fact that not wanting to fight and fighting still =/= consciencious objection.

Sorry for that inherent weakness in their society and their obvious flaw in strategy, but consequences matter.

If the civilian fleet dosnt help then the heavy fleet is destroyed and the then the civilian fleet defenceless and then is also destroyed. This is stated in game. SO the civilian fleet didnt have a choice. By your logic, either they died fighting, or they died running.

[MakeMineMako]

moater boat wrote...

People are easily brainwashed by Bioware. Most people that can think for themselves would side with the quarians over the Geth.

An arrogant assumption on your part.

[Olueq]

wantedman dan wrote...

Olueq wrote...

geth technology can still be useful when deactivated so wouldnt you gain more from siding with the quarians if you HAVE to choose? The geth also have a bad habbit of willingly siding with the reapers. Whats to stop them from just turning on you in the final battle if they feel the reapers have the upper hand?

What's to stop anyone from doing that? Your no true scotsman fallacy goes noted.

The geth are the only ones that willingly side with the reapers on a constant basis. The only thing the other races really have to worry about is indoctrination, which really isnt a problem in ship combat.

[Elite Midget]

Exeider wrote...

Elite Midget wrote...

Brosome wrote...

Elite Midget wrote...

Brosome wrote...

Elite Midget wrote...

Brosome wrote...

I'll just say this:

NO ONE deserves extinction.

Though if you had to choose...

I personally would kill of the racist Quarians. They're worthless compared to the surperior Geth, who don't judge and carry out their orders to the very end, and they must live in special suit, where a single tear can kill them, and eat specific food types. The Geth are simply the better choice and also reinforce how wrong the Godchild was about Synthetics.

You disgust me.

You would let both die since you seem to lack the ability to choose. The Racist Quarians who, throughout ME1-ME3, never attempted diplomacy and tried to wipe out the Geth. Even when warned to stop attacking due to GEth upgrading they dig their own grave. The Quarians deserve their extinction due to their inability to let go of their hatred and racist tendencies.

What? Lack ability to- What?!

I choose peace every damn time. It's the ONLY option that doesn't end with my humanity being destroyed.

Than why are you even here? I told you that if you HAD to choose between one or the other and you pass it off because you went peace. I'm not discuessing the peace option I'm discuessing the ONE OR THE OTHER option. If you wont partake in that than there's no point in you replying.

then the logic of your question is circular because there is IN FACT a third option, in fact in reality there are limitless options available but only one outcome.

To directly answer your question, the answer is NONE, I wouldn't sacrifice one over the other, because in either case it's just wrong!!!!

-AE

False, that third option isn't open for most players or any new players. Either address the question or stop replying. I'm through trying to dish out logic with close minded people.

[fr33stylez]

MakeMineMako wrote...

Peace is THE ONLY OPTION as far as I'm concerned.

The Geth never asked for war. Nor did the Quarian people.

Saving both is they best route to take.

Of course. This should be the desired route to take.

But I think the focus of the thread is how the Geth's transgression are largely ignored, while the Quarians are villified.

Personally, they both have made terrible mistakes. The Quarians (at least their leadership) has continually been the agressor in the conflict.

The Geth ahve shown a propoensity to side with the Reapers on more than one occasaion.

[wantedman dan]

4stringwizard wrote...

Going by your skewed logic though, that means the Geth are equally at fault for not stopping the heretics. 

The obvious difference being that the Heretics and the Geth physically separated into two separate factions. There were no separate, distinct factions in the Quarian ranks.

By your skewed inference, Oleuq's example is correct: the American population, in totality, is at fault for the wars in Iraq, despite the fact that it is a separate, distinct faction of the population committing to war.