861 réponses à ce sujet

[AlexMBrennan]

Geth. Quarians are too much of a liability ( starting a war - which they cannot even win - with the geth weeks after the Reapers launch a full scale invasion, and it only gets worse from there)

[Brosome]

G Kevin wrote...

Aramina wrote...

4stringwizard wrote...

Elite Midget wrote...

4stringwizard wrote...

I forgot to add one more point: the Geth DO end up committing genocide if you side with them over the Quarians. So it seems the Geth are just as capable of the Quarians of committing atrocities.

Again, at best, both sides are equally peaceful/barbaric.

I suppose I should also give my stance too: if forced to choose, I definitely would have chosen the Quarians.

You actually got me to chuckle despite my increasing rage at the insensitivity here.

It was self-defence and the Geth were in the moment of being upgraded and breaking free from Reaper control. THey had no control on their actions, they acted  out of instict to perserve themselves. This is made adamantly clear in the Peace option where the Geth ignore the Quarian fleet when the Quarians pull back.

The Quarians on the other hand attack if you pick one or the other. The Geth aren't at fault even when their hand was forced because when the Quarians pull back no race is wiped out.

And the Geth respond by wiping out the Quarians if Shepard sides with the Geth....

Surprised if you haven't found the flaw in your own logic yet.  Oh, and it IS the Geth's fault.  They sided with the Reapers.  They could have tried to be diplomatic with the Quarians and said they wanted peace.  They could have tried to communicate before making the decisions.  Heck, they could have even fought the Reapers.  But they didn't.  They took the easy way out, in a sense. 

If you bring Legion with you in Tali's ME2 loyalty mission, he flat out says the Geth are willing to make peace....and most of the Quarians don't believe him. If someone is trying to wipe out your enite species, how many times are you supposed to sue for peace before it's "morally acceptible" to fight back?

Trying to say Geth are peaceful when they were killing Quarians on another ship is hardly convincing.

[wantedman dan]

Olueq wrote...

Lets see... the geth have willingly sided with the reapers twice and have been brainwashed (or at least would have if not for shepard) twice as well. If anything, the geth are a liability.

For someone so particular on Geth lore, apparently, you should recall that Legion stated only a fraction of the Geth (a la the Heretics) sided with Nazara, the Sovereign. So no, you are factually incorrect.

The Geth, in totality, has only sided once with the Reaper forces and since recanted; a healthy dose of skepticism is applicable, not outright disparagement and hatred.

[Elite Midget]

Olueq wrote...

Aramina wrote...

4stringwizard wrote...

Elite Midget wrote...

4stringwizard wrote...

I forgot to add one more point: the Geth DO end up committing genocide if you side with them over the Quarians. So it seems the Geth are just as capable of the Quarians of committing atrocities.

Again, at best, both sides are equally peaceful/barbaric.

I suppose I should also give my stance too: if forced to choose, I definitely would have chosen the Quarians.

It was self-defence and the Geth were in the moment of being upgraded and breaking free from Reaper control. THey had no control on their actions, they acted  out of instict to perserve themselves. This is made adamantly clear in the Peace option where the Geth ignore the Quarian fleet when the Quarians pull back.

The Quarians on the other hand attack if you pick one or the other. The Geth aren't at fault even when their hand was forced because when the Quarians pull back no race is wiped out.

And the Geth respond by wiping out the Quarians if Shepard sides with the Geth....

Surprised if you haven't found the flaw in your own logic yet.  Oh, and it IS the Geth's fault.  They sided with the Reapers.  They could have tried to be diplomatic with the Quarians and said they wanted peace.  They could have tried to communicate before making the decisions.  Heck, they could have even fought the Reapers.  But they didn't.  They took the easy way out, in a sense. 

If you bring Legion with you in Tali's ME2 loyalty mission, he flat out says the Geth are willing to make peace....and most of the Quarians don't believe him. If someone is trying to wipe out your enite species, how many times are you supposed to sue for peace before it's "morally acceptible" to fight back?

The geth never try to negotiate. The only contact anyone ever gets with the geth is throught the heretic so how can you blame people for not trusting the geth? Would you really go against everything you ahve been told and ever expereience you have everr had with the geth just because ONE geth syas otherwise? The fact that shepard just believes legion right away proves how stupid he is.

Kinda hard to negiociate when all Quarians shoot Geth on sight and ignore everything they say. Legions racist treatment is a perfect example on how close minded and clouded by hatred the Quarians are. Hell, Legion even lets them off the hook for capturing his people, torturing them, and taking them a part.

[Apollo Taren]

 I ended up saving both of them. If I'd had to make a choice I probably would've saved the Quarians, but since I'm awesome they ended up coexisting peacefully.

Of course, it's not like it really mattered in the end, you know?

[Pathero]

Wow. Anyone want to start a thread for the pacifists?
Those who believe peace is the answer.
Those who are unwilling to punish an entire people for past misdeeds.
Those who gave the Quarians a chance to sort the future out together.
In one suit. Oh how I'd love to be a Geth program in Tali's suit.

[Aramina]

G Kevin wrote...

Aramina wrote...

4stringwizard wrote...

Elite Midget wrote...

4stringwizard wrote...

I forgot to add one more point: the Geth DO end up committing genocide if you side with them over the Quarians. So it seems the Geth are just as capable of the Quarians of committing atrocities.

Again, at best, both sides are equally peaceful/barbaric.

I suppose I should also give my stance too: if forced to choose, I definitely would have chosen the Quarians.

It was self-defence and the Geth were in the moment of being upgraded and breaking free from Reaper control. THey had no control on their actions, they acted  out of instict to perserve themselves. This is made adamantly clear in the Peace option where the Geth ignore the Quarian fleet when the Quarians pull back.

The Quarians on the other hand attack if you pick one or the other. The Geth aren't at fault even when their hand was forced because when the Quarians pull back no race is wiped out.

And the Geth respond by wiping out the Quarians if Shepard sides with the Geth....

Surprised if you haven't found the flaw in your own logic yet.  Oh, and it IS the Geth's fault.  They sided with the Reapers.  They could have tried to be diplomatic with the Quarians and said they wanted peace.  They could have tried to communicate before making the decisions.  Heck, they could have even fought the Reapers.  But they didn't.  They took the easy way out, in a sense. 

If you bring Legion with you in Tali's ME2 loyalty mission, he flat out says the Geth are willing to make peace....and most of the Quarians don't believe him. If someone is trying to wipe out your enite species, how many times are you supposed to sue for peace before it's "morally acceptible" to fight back?

Trying to say Geth are peaceful when they were killing Quarians on another ship is hardly convincing.

Geth that were being experimented on to find their weaknesses so more Geth could be wiped out. As far as I know, most people think defending yourself from experimentation and death isn't a crime. And Legion still helps you take the ship back if you bring him.

[4stringwizard]

Posting for DeinonSlayer (a great point I might add)

Because ME3's narrative is ridiculously one-sided in pushing players towards the Geth, and most can't be asked to think beyond what's put right in front of them.

I find the actions of the Geth during the Morning War unforgivable. I find their violent destruction of anyone entering their territory over the ensuing centuries appalling. I find their inaction when an offshoot of themselves declared war on organic life inexcusable. Siding with the Reapers not once, but twice? Even taking the Reapers out of the picture, if the Geth can be expected to react with genocidal aggression towards any polity they come in conflict with in the future, we'd be doing the universe a favor by wiping them out when the opportunity presented itself. For me, it's never a question of "who do I side with." It's a question of "can the Geth be trusted?"

ME1 stated billions died in the Morning War - over 99% of the Quarian species. In ME2, Legion let it slip that the Geth used mass casualty attacks with chemical weapons - so enthusiastically, in fact, that they were still cleaning up the toxins three centuries later. Assuming it's even authentic, the Geth only showed historical footage presenting themselves as victims. I wonder what the people here would think of them if one of the videos had shown them hitting a Quarian city with rockets carrying poison gas.

Modifié par 4stringwizard, 10 avril 2012 - 12:09 .

[Ekyri]

Olueq wrote...


If the civilian fleet dosnt help then the heavy fleet is destroyed and the then the civilian fleet defenceless and then is also destroyed. This is stated in game. SO the civilian fleet didnt have a choice. By your logic, either they died fighting, or they died running.

Why would the heavy fleet attack if the civilian fleet refuses to join the attack, leading to them being severely outnumbered and having zero chances at winning? Out of spite?

[Mr. C]

Elite Midget wrote...

Mr. C wrote...

G Kevin wrote...

Dranks wrote...

It was a terrible choice to have to make. In the end though I would have to choose Quarians (won't have to though because I make SURE that my Paragon is high enough to broker peace). In the end, despite how terrible I would feel, the geth can be recreated. They are synthetic. If the Quarian race died, they're gone. You can't just rebuild a Quarian. They're gone forever.

This too. Shepard is in no position to eliminate a certain race from the galaxy.

Good thing he doesn't. The Quarians, by Gerral's order, wipes out the Geth. All Shepard does is prevent Legion from uploading the Reaper-Code.  It's closer to murdering your good buddy rather than his entire species!
.............. LEGION WHYYYYY

If that helps you sleep at night. That's like saying you didn't commit genocide when you kill the guy about to fire a missile to stop a giant bomb from wiping out his entire race. Your action and inaction lead to genocide, you played a part in it. You can't deny responsibilty just because you didn't pull the last trigger, you stopped the guy that could have ended it knowing full well that Legions premature death, before the code is uploaded, will doom the Geth.

I'd feel worse if they didn't side with the beings that were in the process of annihilating my own species. After three games, despite Legion's naysay, the Geth have proven themselves to be enemies. No attempt at negotiation, no olive-branch, white-flag, nothing but a hail of gunfire. I admit the Quarians are little better, but that is mainly the ideals imposed by the Admiralty Board. If your government forced a war-doctrine on you for 300 years, those opposed would be drowned out by the propaganda. N. Korea is a good example.

For the record, I cured the genophage, so don't think I'm some mass-murdering bastard for it's own sake. They sided with the Reapers. Whatever their reason, that made them my enemies.

[Brosome]

Pathero wrote...

Wow. Anyone want to start a thread for the pacifists?
Those who believe peace is the answer.
Those who are unwilling to punish an entire people for past misdeeds.
Those who gave the Quarians a chance to sort the future out together.
In one suit. Oh how I'd love to be a Geth program in Tali's suit.

This. Oh so very much.

[fr33stylez]

Elite Midget wrote...

4stringwizard wrote...

Elite Midget wrote...

Heretics served the Reapers, a minority. The rest stayed on their planet and fought the Reaper control. In ME3 they were forced to serve the Reapers due to Quarians threatening Genocide. The Quarians were at fault YET AGAIN.

They weren't forced.  THEY CHOSE.  They had other options.  They just didn't use them. 

/Logic

No, they were forced. The Quarians were threatening to wipe them out and Legion was captured and forced to feed information to push the Geth to join the Reapers. Had the Geth not obeyed the Quarians would have wiped them out.

They were not forced. They had a choice. If you believe turning to the Reapers when you're in a diffcult position is the right thing to do, then you're against everything Shepard stood for.

It's like saying I'm forced to set off a bomb in my school in order to escape a bunch of bullies.

[G Kevin]

Elite Midget wrote...

Olueq wrote...

Aramina wrote...

4stringwizard wrote...

Elite Midget wrote...

4stringwizard wrote...

I forgot to add one more point: the Geth DO end up committing genocide if you side with them over the Quarians. So it seems the Geth are just as capable of the Quarians of committing atrocities.

Again, at best, both sides are equally peaceful/barbaric.

I suppose I should also give my stance too: if forced to choose, I definitely would have chosen the Quarians.

It was self-defence and the Geth were in the moment of being upgraded and breaking free from Reaper control. THey had no control on their actions, they acted  out of instict to perserve themselves. This is made adamantly clear in the Peace option where the Geth ignore the Quarian fleet when the Quarians pull back.

The Quarians on the other hand attack if you pick one or the other. The Geth aren't at fault even when their hand was forced because when the Quarians pull back no race is wiped out.

And the Geth respond by wiping out the Quarians if Shepard sides with the Geth....

Surprised if you haven't found the flaw in your own logic yet.  Oh, and it IS the Geth's fault.  They sided with the Reapers.  They could have tried to be diplomatic with the Quarians and said they wanted peace.  They could have tried to communicate before making the decisions.  Heck, they could have even fought the Reapers.  But they didn't.  They took the easy way out, in a sense. 

If you bring Legion with you in Tali's ME2 loyalty mission, he flat out says the Geth are willing to make peace....and most of the Quarians don't believe him. If someone is trying to wipe out your enite species, how many times are you supposed to sue for peace before it's "morally acceptible" to fight back?

The geth never try to negotiate. The only contact anyone ever gets with the geth is throught the heretic so how can you blame people for not trusting the geth? Would you really go against everything you ahve been told and ever expereience you have everr had with the geth just because ONE geth syas otherwise? The fact that shepard just believes legion right away proves how stupid he is.

Kinda hard to negiociate when all Quarians shoot Geth on sight and ignore everything they say. Legions racist treatment is a perfect example on how close minded and clouded by hatred the Quarians are. Hell, Legion even lets them off the hook for capturing his people, torturing them, and taking them a part.

You don't have to be face to face to negotiate. They could have sent each other messages.

[wantedman dan]

4stringwizard wrote...

They didn't.  The Geth only gained the upper hand when they sided with the Reapers.  Hello?

And that doesn't justify genocide of the Quarians, or mean the Geth were innocent.  

Aside from the obvious and glaring deficiencies in their strategy?

Besides, I've never advocated for genocide of the Quarians. I said I would if I had to, but I didn't so the point is moot. I've only defended the right of the Geth to live. Try your strawman elsewhere.

Hello?

Yes, I think the phone's for you.

Modifié par wantedman dan, 10 avril 2012 - 12:10 .

[Wulfram]

There's plenty of wrong on both sides.

But I picked the geth in the game when I couldn't secure peace. Ultimately, helping the Geth leaves the Quarian's fate in their own hands - it's their choice to keep attacking which dooms them. Whereas stopping the upload means the Geth have no option but to be slaughtered.

But really, that was just horribly depressing.

Modifié par Wulfram, 10 avril 2012 - 12:10 .

[4stringwizard]

Pathero wrote...

Wow. Anyone want to start a thread for the pacifists?
Those who believe peace is the answer.
Those who are unwilling to punish an entire people for past misdeeds.
Those who gave the Quarians a chance to sort the future out together.
In one suit. Oh how I'd love to be a Geth program in Tali's suit.

 And that's what I did.  

Given the choice, I'd always choose peace.   Neither side deserved extermination.  

[Brosome]

Some people's enthusiasm for genocide is... unsettling.

[fr33stylez]

And what do people think will be the consequence of the Geth making a deal with the Reapers?

Let's say Shepard never helped the Quarians in ME3. The Geth eventually win the war against the Quarians...THEN WHAT?

What do you think happens next? The Reapers release control and go about their way? No. The Geth will be used as a tool to help the Reapers continue the cycle of extinction. This is a clear consequence of siding with the Reapers.

So no, the Geth's actions are NOT morally justifiable. THe End does not justify the means.

Modifié par fr33stylez, 10 avril 2012 - 12:12 .

[GuardianAngel470]

G Kevin wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

This boils down to a disturbing question in the end.

Do you judge a group on the merit of their actions or the function of their form?

Whether the OP and the rest of you know this or not, this argument has been going around for years on this forum. Geth or Quarian, Quarian or Geth. Who's right and who's wrong?

Every time, it boils down to a difference of opinion on the above question. Why would I pick a synthetic over an organic? The geth aren't sentient. The geth aren't deserving of protection. If your toaster/computer/phone/electrical-mechanical device gained sentience, you'd freak out.

All of these are old arguments.

Ultimately, the only thing that matters is where you stand on that question.

Answer honestly, if you were part of a single blind experiment in which the actions of two species were presented to you without context on the nature of those species, who would you side with? Species A, the geth, or Species B, the quarians? If all you knew about them was their actions toward each other, who would you side with?

Species A: Became aware, attacked in self defense, won their war, killed anyone who tried coming back, did not care for the rest of the galaxy.

Species B: Attacked their creation, some tried to protect them but military leaders disagreed, lost war, condemed by rest of galaxy, questioned their decisions.

Really hard to say based on actions because you would need to know which actions are considered. 

So far I tried to keep it unbiased but I can't tell. I pick Species B because they reflected on their decision even after they were condemned.

If you're going to include this:

"some tried to protect them but military leaders disagreed"

You have to mention that members of Species A tried to surrender to protect members of Species B. There was a give and take on both sides in this regard so if you include one you have to include the other. Otherwise it isn't objective. Other than that your wording for Species B is overly sympathetic. For instance:

"condemed by rest of galaxy"

The above does not fit the premise. We are looking solely at a races actions, not how it is treated by others. If we were, we'd mention that Species A is universally hated and feared for acting in self defense, which would color any participant's assessment of said species.

[Olueq]

wantedman dan wrote...

Olueq wrote...

Lets see... the geth have willingly sided with the reapers twice and have been brainwashed (or at least would have if not for shepard) twice as well. If anything, the geth are a liability.

For someone so particular on Geth lore, apparently, you should recall that Legion stated only a fraction of the Geth (a la the Heretics) sided with Nazara, the Sovereign. So no, you are factually incorrect.

The Geth, in totality, has only sided once with the Reaper forces and since recanted; a healthy dose of skepticism is applicable, not outright disparagement and hatred.

Whats you point? That was still  A LOT of geth that sided with them...  And no, they sided twice. The whole reason the quarians didnt just win was because they sided with the reapers. Lets also not forget the reaper virus and overlord. The geth have proven so many times that they are a liability. and wait, you say we shouldnt blame them for what a portion of them did? Sounds familiar, no?

[4stringwizard]

wantedman dan wrote...

4stringwizard wrote...

They didn't.  The Geth only gained the upper hand when they sided with the Reapers.  Hello?

And that doesn't justify genocide of the Quarians, or mean the Geth were innocent.  

Aside from the obvious and glaring deficiencies in their strategy?

Besides, I've never advocated for genocide of the Quarians. I said I would if I had to, but I didn't so the point is moot. I've only defended the right of the Geth to live. Try your strawman elsewhere.

Hello?

Yes, I think the phone's for you.

The "obvious and glaring defiecies" that you're making up in your head.  Yes, I know.   But the point is, you defend the Geth - who made many atrocious mistakes - but not defending the Quarians.  With faulty logic. 

[Elite Midget]

It all boils down to this.

Reapers attack!

Geth: Legion gets captured, still resist Reaper influnce.
Quarians: LETS ATTACK THE GETH EVEN THOUGH THEY HAVEN'T JOINED THE REAPERS YET!
Geth: Forced to join Reapers or face extinction from a two front war against Reapers on one side and Quarians on another.
Sheperd: Stop fighting, the Geth are open for peace once I break the Reapers hold over them!
Geth: Yes, we don't want to destroy our creators.
Quarians: KILL THEM ALL! BURN! PILLAGE! ARRRRRAAAARRRGHHHH!
Geth: If you attack we will defend ourselves, don't force our hand.
Quarians: URRRRRGGGHHHH! DIE!
Sheperd: Hmm.. Side with the Warmongering and stupid Quarians or the Geth that want Peace... Geth.
Quarians: They got upgrades? TOO BAD! ATTACK!
Geth: Defending ourselves, we regret your demise.
Quarians: Noooo! We lost EVERYTHING due to our folly!
Sheperd: Idiots.


If Quarians win.

Quarians: RAARGH! We killed them ALL! Lets throw a PARTY on their lifeless bodies! WOOHOO!
Sheperd: Should have sided with the Geth...

Modifié par Elite Midget, 10 avril 2012 - 12:14 .

[Aramina]

wantedman dan wrote...

Besides, I've never advocated for genocide of the Quarians. I said I would if I had to, but I didn't so the point is moot. I've only defended the right of the Geth to live. Try your strawman elsewhere.

This exactly. If forced to choose I would side with the Geth. Not because I want to wipe out the Quarians, but because I believe in giving the Geth a chance to live.

[Gill Kaiser]

It's mainly because if the Quarians had just talked to the Geth, they could probably have negotiated peace relatively easily. The Geth wanted peace, and their only concern was the Quarians' hostile intentions.

[Esker02]

wantedman dan wrote...

Olueq wrote...

Lets see... the geth have willingly sided with the reapers twice and have been brainwashed (or at least would have if not for shepard) twice as well. If anything, the geth are a liability.

For someone so particular on Geth lore, apparently, you should recall that Legion stated only a fraction of the Geth (a la the Heretics) sided with Nazara, the Sovereign. So no, you are factually incorrect.

The Geth, in totality, has only sided once with the Reaper forces and since recanted; a healthy dose of skepticism is applicable, not outright disparagement and hatred.

Conditional on their turning away from their total reaper alliance is, of course, an upload of reaper code into each and every one of them. Interestingly, Legion chose to hide that from you for a good long while! Oh well, I'm sure that will all work out fine in the long run. Things involving reaper tech usually go smoothly.

Modifié par Esker02, 10 avril 2012 - 12:14 .