440 réponses à ce sujet

[Leafs43]

Destroying the mass relays doesn't magically open another door.

The reapers are considered  close to perfection and far more advanced than any current species and they still use the mass relay network for the main way of travel.  They use the citadel as a giant mass relay in ME1.  They use the alpha relay in ME2 arrival's dlc.  So it is canon that the reapers use the mass relay system.


So by saying the mass relays are optional, you admit that the citadel races, which are considerably less advanced than the reapers, can somehow think up of a better idea for travel.  That idea is complete horse pockey and deserves to be rejected as a logical conclusion..

[LucasShark]

I agree:
- In the codex it is clearly stated that with FTL flight it would take "decades or centuries" to cross between the clusters populated thanks to mass relays
- Drive discharge makes crossing infinite voids of space 100 percent impossible given the rules laid out thus far, see quote: "Barriers to exploration"
- Even the Reapers, with their "superior" FTL flight capabilities took 6-7 months to get from the Alpha Relay in Arrival to anothr viable onefor the start of ME3

[Saul Iscariot]

Maybe if they used their more advanced forms of travel they'd tip off the advanced species that it was possible. The Protheans battled them for centuries, had they known that they could develop tech that allowed them to not depend on the relays they could conceivably defeated the Reapers through conventional means.

[Leafs43]

Saul Iscariot wrote...

Maybe if they used their more advanced forms of travel they'd tip off the advanced species that it was possible. The Protheans battled them for centuries, had they known that they could develop tech that allowed them to not depend on the relays they could conceivably defeated the Reapers through conventional means.

If there was another way, the reapers would have found it.

Especially after they cleansed the galaxy so many times, they would stumble upon a different line of thinking from the hundreds of civilizations they farmed.


There is for all intents and purposes, no alternative to replace the mass relays.

Modifié par Leafs43, 09 avril 2012 - 11:01 .

[ryuasiu]

Saul Iscariot wrote...

Maybe if they used their more advanced forms of travel they'd tip off the advanced species that it was possible. The Protheans battled them for centuries, had they known that they could develop tech that allowed them to not depend on the relays they could conceivably defeated the Reapers through conventional means.

Why would that matter if they tipped them off? they would be dead or part of the Reaper collective 

[LucasShark]

LucasShark wrote...

I agree:
- In the codex it is clearly stated that with FTL flight it would take "decades or centuries" to cross between the clusters populated thanks to mass relays
- Drive discharge makes crossing infinite voids of space 100 percent impossible given the rules laid out thus far, see quote: "Barriers to exploration"
- Even the Reapers, with their "superior" FTL flight capabilities took 6-7 months to get from the Alpha Relay in Arrival to anothr viable onefor the start of ME3

(Yes I'm quoting myself)

Addition: I've seen the "but they can just rebuild the Mass Relays" argument about 1000 times: No.

The tech might exist yes, but even if you manage to build one: this leads to what I like to call "Lost in space the movie problem", in that now you have one: but you need to pull that trick again on the other side, rins, repeat.

[DanteImprimis]

Leafs43 wrote...

Destroying the mass relays doesn't magically open another door.

The reapers are considered  close to perfection and far more advanced than any current species and they still use the mass relay network for the main way of travel.  They use the citadel as a giant mass relay in ME1.  They use the alpha relay in ME2 arrival's dlc.  So it is canon that the reapers use the mass relay system.


So by saying the mass relays are optional, you admit that the citadel races, which are considerably less advanced than the reapers, can somehow think up of a better idea for travel.  That idea is complete horse pockey and deserves to be rejected as a logical conclusion..

LucasShark wrote...

I agree:
- In the codex it is clearly stated that with FTL flight it would take "decades or centuries" to cross between the clusters populated thanks to mass relays
- Drive discharge makes crossing infinite voids of space 100 percent impossible given the rules laid out thus far, see quote: "Barriers to exploration"
- Even the Reapers, with their "superior" FTL flight capabilities took 6-7 months to get from the Alpha Relay in Arrival to anothr viable onefor the start of ME3

This (or "these," if you want to be pedantic).

If BW clarifies in the EC that relay-less FTL is somehow possible after all, it'll just be another demonstration of how little they apparently care about their own lore at this point.

[Geneaux486]

The Mass Relays are convenient in that they can get you from point A to point B from system to system without you having to use your fuel for it. The Reapers kept them around because they were ideal not only for transportation but also for setting their traps. Organics have not developed other ways yet not because they can't, but because they've not tried. The relays to most are simply a useful travel network passed down from a previous race, no reason to fix what doesn't look broken.  So no, rejecting the idea that there are other ways to travel through the galaxy is not the logical route to take.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 09 avril 2012 - 11:06 .

[Sinquanto1123]

Saul Iscariot wrote...

Maybe if they used their more advanced forms of travel they'd tip off the advanced species that it was possible. The Protheans battled them for centuries, had they known that they could develop tech that allowed them to not depend on the relays they could conceivably defeated the Reapers through conventional means.

If this was the case, and they knew a way, but didn't want to "tip off" the, in there minds, "ants" who don't even really know how the mass relays work, let alone a different form of travel, why not destroy the mass relays this cycle, use that to destroy all of the races of this cycle, take 500ish years to rebuild the mass relays for the next cycle (they couldn't advance to space faring in that timeframe if the cycles are to be believed) and problem solved?

The fact that they needed the citadel (who is the "king" of the reapers and thus should have been impossible for the protheans to shut down, but I digress) to shut the other races out of the relays shows that there isn't a better way, or even a comparable way.

[luk3us]

Logic went out the door in ME3 once you hit London.

[Leafs43]

Geneaux486 wrote...

The Mass Relays are convenient in that they can get you from point A to point B from system to system without you having to use your fuel for it. The Reapers kept them around because they were ideal not only for transportation but also for setting their traps. Organics have not developed other ways yet not because they can't, but because they've not tried. The relays to most are simply a useful travel network passed down from a previous race, no reason to fix what doesn't look broken.  So no, rejecting the idea that there are other ways to travel through the galaxy is not the logical route to take.

If they were just a convenience left for organics, Reapers would have no use for them.


That is not the case.  The reapers use the mass relays and only resort to a plan B when they are unable to use them, and plan B takes a lot longer.

Modifié par Leafs43, 09 avril 2012 - 11:09 .

[Geneaux486]

Actually, a conversation you have with Legion in Mass Effect 2 contradicts the premise of the OP. "Technology is not a straight line, there are many paths to the same end" Legion says. The technology of the Mass Relays is just one path, and by putting it out in front of organics, it has kept organics from seeing the need to find another path.

If they were just a convenience left for organics, Reapers would have no use for them.


That is not the case.  The reapers use the mass relays and only resort to a plan B when they are unable to use them, and plan B takes a lot longer.

They were a convenience for both.  For organics, the Mass Relay network keeps organics from seeking alternative means of travel, since they already have a system that works perfectly.  Soveriegn and Legion both say this themselves.  For Reapers, it still works just fine for intragalactic travel.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 09 avril 2012 - 11:12 .

[Leafs43]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Actually, a conversation you have with Legion in Mass Effect 2 contradicts the premise of the OP. "Technology is not a straight line, there are many paths to the same end" Legion says. The technology of the Mass Relays is just one path, and by putting it out in front of organics, it has kept organics from seeing the need to find another path.

The reapers are millions of years old and harvested races more advanced than the current races.

There is no way the reapers have found at travel better than the mass relays.

[CapnManx]

The Reapers wanted people using the mass relays so that they wouldn't invest too heavily in alternatives. This suggests that alternatives are likely enough to cause them concern.

As for why the Reapers use them... well, why wouldn't they? They're right there.

Modifié par CapnManx, 09 avril 2012 - 11:13 .

[Hudathan]

So we either build our own relays or we don't get to go see the sights for a while. What's the problem.

[Geneaux486]

Leafs43 wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

Actually, a conversation you have with Legion in Mass Effect 2 contradicts the premise of the OP. "Technology is not a straight line, there are many paths to the same end" Legion says. The technology of the Mass Relays is just one path, and by putting it out in front of organics, it has kept organics from seeing the need to find another path.

The reapers are millions of years old and harvested races more advanced than the current races.

There is no way the reapers have found at travel better than the mass relays.

What does that have to do with anything?  The "end" Legion is talking about is travel between systems across the galaxy.  There are multiple paths to that end.  The Reapers simply chose one, and left it for organics to also choose so they would not search others.  That's right there in the game, all three games really.

[Leafs43]

CapnManx wrote...

The Reapers wanted people using the mass relays so that they wouldn't invest too heavily in alternatives. This suggests that alternatives are likely enough to cause them concern.

As for why the Reapers use them... well, why wouldn't they? They're right there.

Gee I don't know, why use the citadel as a mass relay itself?  Just use it as a staging grounds and use a different method to sack the citadel.  That way nothing could possibly go wrong.

[Spectre-00N7]

Even with a better FTL travel mechanic, they still have to go around dangerous territories to gather more supplies.

As for the argument that the can create new mass relays. I doubt that they will be able to create mass relays all around the Galaxy at the same time and line every thing up perfectly to avoid having to travel without them.

[LucasShark]

Geneaux486 wrote...

The Mass Relays are convenient in that they can get you from point A to point B from system to system without you having to use your fuel for it. The Reapers kept them around because they were ideal not only for transportation but also for setting their traps. Organics have not developed other ways yet not because they can't, but because they've not tried. The relays to most are simply a useful travel network passed down from a previous race, no reason to fix what doesn't look broken.  So no, rejecting the idea that there are other ways to travel through the galaxy is not the logical route to take.

So you honestly think NO-ONE looked into it?  I mean seriously: bypassing the current barriers to exploration into the untapped depths of the galaxy and simaltainously bypassing the major choke points of armed conflict has no humongous pay-off?

[Leafs43]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

Actually, a conversation you have with Legion in Mass Effect 2 contradicts the premise of the OP. "Technology is not a straight line, there are many paths to the same end" Legion says. The technology of the Mass Relays is just one path, and by putting it out in front of organics, it has kept organics from seeing the need to find another path.

The reapers are millions of years old and harvested races more advanced than the current races.

There is no way the reapers have found at travel better than the mass relays.

What does that have to do with anything?  The "end" Legion is talking about is travel between systems across the galaxy.  There are multiple paths to that end.  The Reapers simply chose one, and left it for organics to also choose so they would not search others.  That's right there in the game, all three games really.

They chose the best one and the next best alternative took months where mass relays took hours.


I don't think you're grasping this.

[CapnManx]

Leafs43 wrote...

CapnManx wrote...

The Reapers wanted people using the mass relays so that they wouldn't invest too heavily in alternatives. This suggests that alternatives are likely enough to cause them concern.

As for why the Reapers use them... well, why wouldn't they? They're right there.

Gee I don't know, why use the citadel as a mass relay itself?  Just use it as a staging grounds and use a different method to sack the citadel.  That way nothing could possibly go wrong.

They did.

[Malanek]

Leafs43 wrote...
So by saying the mass relays are optional, you admit that the citadel races, which are considerably less advanced than the reapers, can somehow think up of a better idea for travel.  That idea is complete horse pockey and deserves to be rejected as a logical conclusion..

It doesn't have to be better, or even as good. It just has be adequate.

[Saul Iscariot]

@ Siquanto The Reapers would just blow up the relays and wipeout the advanced species and rebuild them would not work as the Reapers harvest those species. We are never really told why, though it seems to be part of the flawed logic.

@ Ryuasia There is no established mythology to say that the Reapers couldn't have been defeated by a species that hadn't developed more advanced technology. The whole point of leaving the relays was to guide the development of species in each cycle. As I said the Protheans fought them for centuries. Had they concentrated on developing different technologies they could have defeated them.

[TheMadBlimper]

BioWare doesn't care what you think. They'll write it in anyway, and there's nothing that you or any of us can do about it.

[tekkaman fear]

Or, the survivors could always find an intact reaper and download relay making 101 from its corpse.