440 réponses à ce sujet

[s.nebulous]

Leafs43 wrote...

s.nebulous wrote...

FTL without mass relays would not be the same, the galaxy most definitely would be different.

But I reject the premise that civilizations will not find an alternative, or that reaper technology is out of their reach.

There is no alternate technology.

We are talking about a technology that allows instant travel to the other side of the galaxy with little to no effort.  There is no technology that could replace that in the foreseeable future.  And if there was, the reapers would have used it themselves.  (Mass Effect tech is actually above Star Wars tech with regards to the mass relays)


The only option the galaxy has is mass relays.  

Which leaves 2 options, rebuild the mass relays or the writers have to write them back in.

And then the logistics of replicating the mass relay network is ridiculously complicated.  Not every system will have the resources to build one, or even know how to build one.  

And current races cannot even replicate the technology of one.  It took 100 years for the protheans, which were farther along than we were led to believe could only make 1 small mass relay and it had to be point to point with the citadel.


Give the galaxy 100 years without mass relays, the galaxy would be in dystopian hell.

I don't share your reasoning on the issue. I concede things will be different, but not necessarily for the worse.  

Mass relays travel did no favors for the Krogan or Rachni. Something in my head alarms me about absolute statements; I just do not share your pessimism. 

I see no reason the races could not overcome the challenges they face.I do agree the galaxy will look much different.

[Icinix]

DaeJi wrote...

Icinix wrote...

Without the Reapers and the Mass Relays, new avenues of technology must be pursued.

Why? Mass Effect technology works, everyone knows it works, the Reapers (the most advanced forms of technology encountered) use Mass Effect technology, seriously all they are going to do is rebuild the Relays making destroying them pointless.

The time it would take to do that would be phenomonal, I would like to think it would free scientsits up to explore other avenues outside of the limitations of requiring Mass Relays in the first place.

Besides, if everyone was content and happy where they were with technology levels, then the singularity even could never occur because no-one would be striving for greater technology, and no AI would have the capacity to create better technology.

Mass Relays are one type of travel, a type of travel setup and establshed by the Reapers to force people to use them, people stopped researching other tech because they were there, they were available and they were good to go. The time it woudl take to re-establish the realys would be astronomical. Bet your backside scientists the galaxy over would be looking at faster alternatives.

[Geneaux486]

Leafs43 wrote...
reinventing the wheel = duplicating something that has already been optimized.

It fits perfectly with the mass relays and other technology.

It doesn't fit at all.  Fast intragalactic travel, as Legion and even Soveriegn pointed out, is not a straight line.  Accepting the Reaper's path blinds one to alternatives, but there are multiple paths to the same end.  Basically, just because the Mass Relays are a thing doesn't mean there aren't other ways to acheive something of similar value.  Furthermore, optimized or not, in the destroy ending, both they and their creators are gone.  I feel like a broken record pointing out over and over again how characters in-game flat out say this, but what the heck, I'll do it again:  Characters in-game flat out say this.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 10 avril 2012 - 04:22 .

[Leafs43]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...
reinventing the wheel = duplicating something that has already been optimized.

It fits perfectly with the mass relays and other technology.

It doesn't fit at all.  Fast intragalactic travel, as Legion and even Soveriegn pointed out, is not a straight line.  Accepting the Reaper's path blinds one to alternatives, but there are multiple paths to the same end.  Basically, just because the Mass Relays are a thing doesn't mean there aren't other ways to acheive something of similar value.  I feel like a broken record pointing out over and over again how characters in-game flat out say this, but what the heck, I'll do it again:  Characters in-game flat out say this.

Dude...how is getting from point A to B on a galactic scale in the blink of an eye not optimized?


The only step above the is not relying on the relays themselves and the reapers, the inventors of the relays, couldn't even figure that out.


To argue otherwise is foolhardy....you will not come up with a better technology.

[Icinix]

Leafs43 wrote...

Icinix wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

Icinix wrote...

Without the Reapers and the Mass Relays, new avenues of technology must be pursued.

Future technology established could well exceed beyond any level previously discovered as it doesn't follow the established paths.

This theory is debunked.

Read the thread.

I did.

Its not.

Instananeous point to point galactic travel, that theortical could also be used intergalactically, is the pinnacle of technology.

You won't get a better technology than it.

What about technology that doesn't require the Mass Relays? Where ships could jump precision points from anywhere to anywhere instantaneously. Without needing to be at a Relay, without drift, without needing to wait in a cargo line for hours why other ships go through.

That mentality of it being the best is the same mentality some scientists had over a hundred years ago when they said everything that already could be invented was. We're humans, we strive for better, for faster, for cheaper - Always. The second we stop that, we stagnate. The relays were a setup by the Reapers to stop people from researching more. Without them, scientists are free to explore options beyond the scope of what they already knew.

[Geneaux486]

Leafs43 wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...
reinventing the wheel = duplicating something that has already been optimized.

It fits perfectly with the mass relays and other technology.

It doesn't fit at all.  Fast intragalactic travel, as Legion and even Soveriegn pointed out, is not a straight line.  Accepting the Reaper's path blinds one to alternatives, but there are multiple paths to the same end.  Basically, just because the Mass Relays are a thing doesn't mean there aren't other ways to acheive something of similar value.  I feel like a broken record pointing out over and over again how characters in-game flat out say this, but what the heck, I'll do it again:  Characters in-game flat out say this.

Dude...how is getting from point A to B on a galactic scale in the blink of an eye not optimized?


The only step above the is not relying on the relays themselves and the reapers, the inventors of the relays, couldn't even figure that out.


To argue otherwise is foolhardy....you will not come up with a better technology.

And for the hundreth time, it does not have to be *better* than that technology, it doesn't even have to be quite as good, it just has to be close.  What we're talking about here is the replacement of something that gets blown away at the end of Mass Effect 3, along with the beings that created it.  Finding an alternate path to the same end becomes a necessity at that point, and according to Legion AND Bioware staff in unofficial interviews, that is possible.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 10 avril 2012 - 04:27 .

[Warrior Craess]

CapnManx wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

s.nebulous wrote...

FTL without mass relays would not be the same, the galaxy most definitely would be different.

But I reject the premise that civilizations will not find an alternative, or that reaper technology is out of their reach.

There is no alternate technology.

We are talking about a technology that allows instant travel to the other side of the galaxy with little to no effort.  There is no technology that could replace that in the foreseeable future.  And if there was, the reapers would have used it themselves.  (Mass Effect tech is actually above Star Wars tech with regards to the mass relays)


The only option the galaxy has is mass relays.  

Which leaves 2 options, rebuild the mass relays or the writers have to write them back in.

And then the logistics of replicating the mass relay network is ridiculously complicated.  Not every system will have the resources to build one, or even know how to build one.  

And current races cannot even replicate the technology of one.  It took 100 years for the protheans, which were farther along than we were led to believe could only make 1 small mass relay and it had to be point to point with the citadel.


Give the galaxy 100 years without mass relays, the galaxy would be in dystopian hell.

See, this is the part of your argument I just can't get my head around.  Why do you consider it absolutely necessary to be able to fly from one end of the galaxy to the other in order for civilization to survive?

It's necessary for civilization as we knew it in the ME games, sure, but that doesn't mean it can't adapt to a change of circumstances.  It absolutely means hard times ahead, but that's just new opportunities for story telling (should there be any more ME); it's not the end of the universe though. 

People will pick themselves up and find other ways to live.  That's what people do.  And since they do have FTL, and since there are many inhabited worlds out there, galactic civilization will, sooner or later,  reemerge in a new form.

Becuase a galactic civilization requires nearly instanteous travel (or at the very least a very short time say less than a month).  Any greater time differential and you begin to lose cohesion. The British empire broke aprt becuase of the time delay from the seat of power to it's distant reaches. Same with the Romans, in fact every major empire (expcet Alexanders) follows the same path. They rise to prominency then fade out becuase you reach a point where it's not possible to effect change fast enough to adjust for local variances. 

You would inevitably end up with local clusters as the seats of power and they would be competative not co-operative. This BTW is know as intersteller civilization. And it would be strictly limited to the number of habitable worlds near the seat of power. Too far away, and they splinter off and become another  whatever (republic, empire blah blah blah.)

[Allan Schumacher]

Warrior Craess wrote...

But then we get into the mechanics of why the relays explode. As far as I can see with out there being a significant explosion (nova level as opposed to supernova - but everyones still screwed anyway.) there really isn't any reason for the relays to explode. 

This is something I haven't given too much thought of, because a device like the Crucible is innately impossible to understand.  Which is my reservation for it being the primary plot device in the main game, but it's what we're given so we have to go with it.

[Leafs43]

Icinix wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

Icinix wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

Icinix wrote...

Without the Reapers and the Mass Relays, new avenues of technology must be pursued.

Future technology established could well exceed beyond any level previously discovered as it doesn't follow the established paths.

This theory is debunked.

Read the thread.

I did.

Its not.

Instananeous point to point galactic travel, that theortical could also be used intergalactically, is the pinnacle of technology.

You won't get a better technology than it.

What about technology that doesn't require the Mass Relays? Where ships could jump precision points from anywhere to anywhere instantaneously. Without needing to be at a Relay, without drift, without needing to wait in a cargo line for hours why other ships go through.

That mentality of it being the best is the same mentality some scientists had over a hundred years ago when they said everything that already could be invented was. We're humans, we strive for better, for faster, for cheaper - Always. The second we stop that, we stagnate. The relays were a setup by the Reapers to stop people from researching more. Without them, scientists are free to explore options beyond the scope of what they already knew.

Read the post above.


The reapers couldn't even figure that out.


It's utmost hubris to believe after millions of years after inventing the mass relays, the reapers copuldn't make that technological leap, yet somehow humans, who have been in space for maybe 200 years if you want to go back to the 1960's that really have no idea how mass relays really work can make that leap in a couple of months.

That's when I say....bullplop, you're full of it.

Modifié par Leafs43, 10 avril 2012 - 04:30 .

[ltkos]

I may have missed this part, but how does ME deal with acceleration / deceleration of ships?

[CapnManx]

Warrior Craess wrote...


Becuase a galactic civilization requires nearly instanteous travel (or at the very least a very short time say less than a month).  Any greater time differential and you begin to lose cohesion. The British empire broke aprt becuase of the time delay from the seat of power to it's distant reaches. Same with the Romans, in fact every major empire (expcet Alexanders) follows the same path. They rise to prominency then fade out becuase you reach a point where it's not possible to effect change fast enough to adjust for local variances. 

You would inevitably end up with local clusters as the seats of power and they would be competative not co-operative. This BTW is know as intersteller civilization. And it would be strictly limited to the number of habitable worlds near the seat of power. Too far away, and they splinter off and become another  whatever (republic, empire blah blah blah.)

Yes.  And?

That type of galactic civilization didn't exist even with the relays.

[Geneaux486]

Leafs43 wrote...

Read the post above.


The reapers couldn't even figure that out.


It's utmost hubris to believe after millions of years after inventing the mass relays, the reapers copuldn't make that technological leap, yet somehow humans, who have been in space for maybe 200 years if you want to go back to the 1960's can do it.

You are assuming the Reapers have been trying to figure it out, but nowhere in the game is this stated.  They fly into the galaxy, purge advanced life, then hibernate in dark space.  There was no need for them to research faster means of travel because they believed the system they had in place for their extinction cycles was foolproof.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 10 avril 2012 - 04:31 .

[Warrior Craess]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...
reinventing the wheel = duplicating something that has already been optimized.

It fits perfectly with the mass relays and other technology.

It doesn't fit at all.  Fast intragalactic travel, as Legion and even Soveriegn pointed out, is not a straight line.  Accepting the Reaper's path blinds one to alternatives, but there are multiple paths to the same end.  Basically, just because the Mass Relays are a thing doesn't mean there aren't other ways to acheive something of similar value.  I feel like a broken record pointing out over and over again how characters in-game flat out say this, but what the heck, I'll do it again:  Characters in-game flat out say this.

Dude...how is getting from point A to B on a galactic scale in the blink of an eye not optimized?


The only step above the is not relying on the relays themselves and the reapers, the inventors of the relays, couldn't even figure that out.


To argue otherwise is foolhardy....you will not come up with a better technology.

And for the hundreth time, it does not have to be *better* than that technology, it doesn't even have to be quite as good, it just has to be close.  What we're talking about here is the replacement of something that gets blown away at the end of Mass Effect 3, along with the beings that created it.  Finding an alternate path to the same end becomes a necessity at that point.

Your assuming that anyone would even research such a technology. If in ten or so years we haven't figured out how to reverse engineer a relay, then they might start that process... and they would be 1000's of years behind Mass effect drives (which is all a relay really is, writ large).  So in the interm we are going to be using ME drives to travel FTL, and they will all be working on recreating the relays. We know it works, we know it works extremely well. Therefor we will focus 99% of our energy into reclaiming it.  This will be a business decision, not a scientific one. Though I've no doubt that the scientists would be looking primarliy into ME tech anyway. 

[DaeJi]

Icinix wrote...

The time it would take to do that would be phenomonal, I would like to think it would free scientsits up to explore other avenues outside of the limitations of requiring Mass Relays in the first place.

Considering that all the scientists in the galaxy are aware of the Reapers, their use of Mass Effect techology, and how far more advanced the Reapers were using Mass Effect technology it would be irresponsible of them to try to find new methods when they can clearly see how far they can go with their current technology.

Besides, if everyone was content and happy where they were with technology levels, then the singularity even could never occur because no-one would be striving for greater technology, and no AI would have the capacity to create better technology.

But they weren't. Throughout the games the galaxy was always advancing, creating new devices and pushing what Mass Effect technology can do. Yes, they maybe did not advance as quickly as they could have (that fault can actually be laid at the Asari's feet) but they were not standing still.

Mass Relays are one type of travel, a type of travel setup and establshed by the Reapers to force people to use them, people stopped researching other tech because they were there, they were available and they were good to go. The time it woudl take to re-establish the realys would be astronomical. Bet your backside scientists the galaxy over would be looking at faster alternatives.

There is not faster alternative than instant. Yes, the time it would take to recreate the Relay network would be astronomical as you put it. But it's the best they have and the likely if not obvious outcome.

Modifié par DaeJi, 10 avril 2012 - 04:31 .

[Icinix]

Leafs43 wrote...

Icinix wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

Icinix wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

Icinix wrote...

Without the Reapers and the Mass Relays, new avenues of technology must be pursued.

Future technology established could well exceed beyond any level previously discovered as it doesn't follow the established paths.

This theory is debunked.

Read the thread.

I did.

Its not.

Instananeous point to point galactic travel, that theortical could also be used intergalactically, is the pinnacle of technology.

You won't get a better technology than it.

What about technology that doesn't require the Mass Relays? Where ships could jump precision points from anywhere to anywhere instantaneously. Without needing to be at a Relay, without drift, without needing to wait in a cargo line for hours why other ships go through.

That mentality of it being the best is the same mentality some scientists had over a hundred years ago when they said everything that already could be invented was. We're humans, we strive for better, for faster, for cheaper - Always. The second we stop that, we stagnate. The relays were a setup by the Reapers to stop people from researching more. Without them, scientists are free to explore options beyond the scope of what they already knew.

Read the post above.


The reapers couldn't even figure that out.


It's utmost hubris to believe after millions of years after inventing the mass relays, the reapers copuldn't make that technological leap, yet somehow humans, who have been in space for maybe 200 years if you want to go back to the 1960's that really have no idea how mass relays really work can make that leap in a couple of months.

That's when I say....bullplop, you're full of it.

Nice chatting to you.

[Leafs43]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

Read the post above.


The reapers couldn't even figure that out.


It's utmost hubris to believe after millions of years after inventing the mass relays, the reapers copuldn't make that technological leap, yet somehow humans, who have been in space for maybe 200 years if you want to go back to the 1960's can do it.

You are assuming the Reapers have been trying to figure it out, but nowhere in the game is this stated.  They fly into the galaxy, purge advanced life, then hibernate in dark space.  There was no need for them to research faster means of travel because they believed the system they had in place for their extinction cycles was foolproof.

If they thought there plan was foolproof they wouldn't have been interventioness during their "sleep".


If the reapers couldn't figure something out, humans sure as sh!t ain't going to figure it out.

That's the reality of the situation.

[DaeJi]

Icinix wrote...

What about technology that doesn't require the Mass Relays? Where ships could jump precision points from anywhere to anywhere instantaneously. Without needing to be at a Relay, without drift, without needing to wait in a cargo line for hours why other ships go through.

That mentality of it being the best is the same mentality some scientists had over a hundred years ago when they said everything that already could be invented was. We're humans, we strive for better, for faster, for cheaper - Always. The second we stop that, we stagnate. The relays were a setup by the Reapers to stop people from researching more. Without them, scientists are free to explore options beyond the scope of what they already knew.

The Relays never stopped innovation. And instant teleportation technology, which is what you are proposing, is FAR more advanced than anything else in Mass Effect, even the Reapers. A society that produces that will be so far ahead technologically in every other area that the setting won't even look like it is from the same universe (minus the looks of the other species).

[Geneaux486]

Leafs43 wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

Read the post above.


The reapers couldn't even figure that out.


It's utmost hubris to believe after millions of years after inventing the mass relays, the reapers copuldn't make that technological leap, yet somehow humans, who have been in space for maybe 200 years if you want to go back to the 1960's can do it.

You are assuming the Reapers have been trying to figure it out, but nowhere in the game is this stated.  They fly into the galaxy, purge advanced life, then hibernate in dark space.  There was no need for them to research faster means of travel because they believed the system they had in place for their extinction cycles was foolproof.

If they thought there plan was foolproof they wouldn't have been interventioness during their "sleep".


If the reapers couldn't figure something out, humans sure as sh!t ain't going to figure it out.

That's the reality of the situation.

No, the reality of the situation is that you and I have no idea whether or not the Reapers *tried* to figure it out.  Furthermore, why are we only taking humans into account?  What about the Salarians, or the Quarians, the Asari, or the Geth?  You think none of them can contribute anything to the research?  As I said, Legion in Mass Effect 2 and Soverign in Mass Effect 1 contradict what you propose, and your assertion that there is no possible alternate means of intragalactic travel is based purely on your own assumptions.

[Allan Schumacher]

Leafs43 wrote...

Read the post above.


The reapers couldn't even figure that out.


It's utmost hubris to believe after millions of years after inventing the mass relays, the reapers copuldn't make that technological leap, yet somehow humans, who have been in space for maybe 200 years if you want to go back to the 1960's that really have no idea how mass relays really work can make that leap in a couple of months.

What's the prevent the current cycle from replicating (or near replicating) the Mass Relays themselves?

[Geneaux486]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

Read the post above.


The reapers couldn't even figure that out.


It's utmost hubris to believe after millions of years after inventing the mass relays, the reapers copuldn't make that technological leap, yet somehow humans, who have been in space for maybe 200 years if you want to go back to the 1960's that really have no idea how mass relays really work can make that leap in a couple of months.

What's the prevent the current cycle from replicating (or near replicating) the Mass Relays themselves?

The more pressing issue is where in the game does it ever say the Reapers were actively trying to enhance their own means of transportation and failing? 

[DaeJi]

Geneaux486 wrote...
You are assuming the Reapers have been trying to figure it out, but nowhere in the game is this stated.  They fly into the galaxy, purge advanced life, then hibernate in dark space.  There was no need for them to research faster means of travel because they believed the system they had in place for their extinction cycles was foolproof.

We do know that Reapers are still active between harvestings, even if at a reduced levels. Look at the Collectors, beings who ran experiments for the Reapers. As well, the codex also mentions that the Reapers don't really need to use the Relays but use them anyway due to convenience.

[Geneaux486]

DaeJi wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...
You are assuming the Reapers have been trying to figure it out, but nowhere in the game is this stated.  They fly into the galaxy, purge advanced life, then hibernate in dark space.  There was no need for them to research faster means of travel because they believed the system they had in place for their extinction cycles was foolproof.

We do know that Reapers are still active between harvestings, even if at a reduced levels. Look at the Collectors, beings who ran experiments for the Reapers. As well, the codex also mentions that the Reapers don't really need to use the Relays but use them anyway due to convenience.

The Collectors are controlled by Harbinger alone.

[Leafs43]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

Read the post above.


The reapers couldn't even figure that out.


It's utmost hubris to believe after millions of years after inventing the mass relays, the reapers copuldn't make that technological leap, yet somehow humans, who have been in space for maybe 200 years if you want to go back to the 1960's can do it.

You are assuming the Reapers have been trying to figure it out, but nowhere in the game is this stated.  They fly into the galaxy, purge advanced life, then hibernate in dark space.  There was no need for them to research faster means of travel because they believed the system they had in place for their extinction cycles was foolproof.

If they thought there plan was foolproof they wouldn't have been interventioness during their "sleep".


If the reapers couldn't figure something out, humans sure as sh!t ain't going to figure it out.

That's the reality of the situation.

No, the reality of the situation is that you and I have no idea whether or not the Reapers *tried* to figure it out.  Furthermore, why are we only taking humans into account?  What about the Salarians, or the Quarians, the Asari, or the Geth?  You think none of them can contribute anything to the research?  As I said, Legion in Mass Effect 2 and Soverign in Mass Effect 1 contradict what you propose, and your assertion that there is no possible alternate means of intragalactic travel is based purely on your own assumptions.

Reapers were reaping when asari were still squid.

Reapers are so far advanced, it will take thousands, if not millions, of years to catch up to them if starting from scratch.

Any other train of thought is logically unsound.

[DaeJi]

Allan Schumacher wrote...


What's the prevent the current cycle from replicating (or near replicating) the Mass Relays themselves?

Nothing, and in fact if the Relays remained destroyed after the Extended Cut DLC that's probably what BioWare will have the galaxy do next. Which, again, makes destroying them pointless.

[Geneaux486]

Leafs43 wrote...
Reapers were reaping when asari were still squid.

Reapers are so far advanced, it will take thousands, if not millions, of years to catch up to them if starting from scratch.

Any other train of thought is logically unsound.

The Protheans built a mass relay in a couple of decades.  You were saying?

Modifié par Geneaux486, 10 avril 2012 - 04:41 .