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[DaeJi]

Geneaux486 wrote...


The Collectors are controlled by Harbinger alone.

Damn, and all this time I thought Harbinger was a Reaper. The oldest, largest, leaderest Reaper. A point to you, good sir.

<_<

[Leafs43]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

Read the post above.


The reapers couldn't even figure that out.


It's utmost hubris to believe after millions of years after inventing the mass relays, the reapers copuldn't make that technological leap, yet somehow humans, who have been in space for maybe 200 years if you want to go back to the 1960's that really have no idea how mass relays really work can make that leap in a couple of months.

What's the prevent the current cycle from replicating (or near replicating) the Mass Relays themselves?

It took the protheans 100 years after first contact with reapers to create a very small mass relay which was only point to point with an already existing relay, the citadel.  And protheans had the benefit of having mass relays intact for reverse engineering purposes.  The current races don't even have that luxury.


Current races are screwed without the writers writing back in the relays or they have to do a major hand wave that only trivializes the series even further.

Modifié par Leafs43, 10 avril 2012 - 04:45 .

[Geneaux486]

DaeJi wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...


The Collectors are controlled by Harbinger alone.

Damn, and all this time I thought Harbinger was a Reaper. The oldest, largest, leaderest Reaper. A point to you, good sir.

<_<

My point was that all the Collectors tell us is that Harbinger was still active.  We don't know what his posse was doing.  lol premature sarcasm

It took the protheans 100 years after first contact with reapers to create a very small mass relay which was only point to point with an already existing relay, the citadel.  And protheans had the benefit of having mass relays intact for reverse engineering purposes.  The current races don't even have that luxury.

The Prothean scientists were in stasis during that time, so the amount of time passed didn't help them.  They still did it in a fraction of one prothean lifetime.  And the current races not only have the wreckage of the mass relays, but also a bunch of dead reapers to work with.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 10 avril 2012 - 04:45 .

[DaeJi]

Leafs43 wrote...

It took the protheans 100 years after first contact with reapers to create a very small mass relay and protheans had the benefit of having mass relays intact for reverse engineering purposes.  The current races don't even have that luxury.

I don't think the Protheans more any more advanced than current species when the Reapers first came (though I have no doubt that the war really caused them to push their technological limits) and I can see the currect cycle rebuilding the Relays over thousands and thousands of years.

[Warrior Craess]

CapnManx wrote...

Warrior Craess wrote...


Becuase a galactic civilization requires nearly instanteous travel (or at the very least a very short time say less than a month).  Any greater time differential and you begin to lose cohesion. The British empire broke aprt becuase of the time delay from the seat of power to it's distant reaches. Same with the Romans, in fact every major empire (expcet Alexanders) follows the same path. They rise to prominency then fade out becuase you reach a point where it's not possible to effect change fast enough to adjust for local variances. 

You would inevitably end up with local clusters as the seats of power and they would be competative not co-operative. This BTW is know as intersteller civilization. And it would be strictly limited to the number of habitable worlds near the seat of power. Too far away, and they splinter off and become another  whatever (republic, empire blah blah blah.)

Yes.  And?

That type of galactic civilization didn't exist even with the relays.

lol your kidding right? prior to ME 3 you couldn't just head on over to the otherside of the galaxy, interact with people there and then fly back? They might not all agree with the Council (ie the terminus systems )but we could interact on a daily basis we could exchange art, business, manufacturing,  etc etc. Yes the ME verse is a galactic civilization. 

We have a global civilization now - and yet we don't all follow the same leadership. We can however travel to any point on the globe in a short amount of time. I can talk with someone from China, or Germany of one of the poles if I really wanted to. If i had the money I could travel and visit those places with out having to spend too much time in doing so. Take away planes, cars and ships, go back to the days of wind powered sailing. In fact go back to Greak or Roman times and look at a world map, see just how much interaction there was between China and Rome, Or China and Greece.  I'm sure there was some few hardy souls who made the journey, but it wasn't many and it wasn't very meaningful. Not to mention that at this point there was 0 interaction between the america's and the rest of the world.  

With out the relays you will not have much if any interaction between various local clusters. They will compete (vaguely) for resources, and they may be isolated conflicts, but nothing else.  yes, there will be intersteller societies, but gone are the days when you can travel from earth to thessia, or Rannoch.  Gone will be the galactic civilization. 

[s.nebulous]

Regardless of Sovereign’s comments, nothing about the reapers seems beyond our comprehension.

The scale and the extent of the mass relays would be a problem. I would imagine an alternative use of FTL would be more economic in the short term. This leads to a different, but not necessarily hellish galaxy.

The old political structure was not perfect, nor a necessity for galactic expansion.

[Leafs43]

DaeJi wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

It took the protheans 100 years after first contact with reapers to create a very small mass relay and protheans had the benefit of having mass relays intact for reverse engineering purposes.  The current races don't even have that luxury.

I don't think the Protheans more any more advanced than current species when the Reapers first came (though I have no doubt that the war really caused them to push their technological limits) and I can see the currect cycle rebuilding the Relays over thousands and thousands of years.

I added in the fact that what the protheans did invent, it was a point to point relay, which is probably the most basic type of relay.  So the protheans required an already existing relay in the citadel for a hook up point.  The current races don't have this ability.  Other than the control ending, there is no citadel.

Modifié par Leafs43, 10 avril 2012 - 04:47 .

[Aurvant]

Nihlus stated at the very beginning of ME1 that without the Citadel or the Relays that interstellar travel would be impossible. This notion is repeated numerous times in the game and in the codex. Destroying the relays was really stupid and I also reject the idea that they were "optional".

[CapnManx]

Leafs43 wrote...


Reapers were reaping when asari were still squid.

Reapers are so far advanced, it will take thousands, if not millions, of years to catch up to them if starting from scratch.

Any other train of thought is logically unsound.

Actually, not logically unsound at all.

Reapers considered themselves to be the pinacle of development; and they spent millions of years reinforcing that idea by wiping out advanced life before it had a chance to outgrow them and prove them wrong.

Consequently, it is entierly plausible that they didn't bother developing new technology at all during that time; and we have no idea how advanced the race/AI that designed the basic Reaper format was; beyond 'more so than us'.

None of us know how plausible that is; but it is possible.

[DaeJi]

Geneaux486 wrote...


My point was that all the Collectors tell us is that Harbinger was still active.  We don't know what his posse was doing.  lol premature sarcasm

I agree with the premature sarcasm, but it's okay I'm sure you'll get the hang of it. And yes, Harbinger was active. The Reapers were active in that case, just not all of them or most of them. Harbinger is not an island, he is part of the Reapers forces and likely their leader after Starchild. What he does isn't of benefit to him alone.

[shepard1038]

The races have reaper corpses to reverse engineer and the debris of the mass relays.

[Geneaux486]

Leafs43 wrote...

DaeJi wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

It took the protheans 100 years after first contact with reapers to create a very small mass relay and protheans had the benefit of having mass relays intact for reverse engineering purposes.  The current races don't even have that luxury.

I don't think the Protheans more any more advanced than current species when the Reapers first came (though I have no doubt that the war really caused them to push their technological limits) and I can see the currect cycle rebuilding the Relays over thousands and thousands of years.

I added in the fact that what the protheans did invent, it was a point to point relay, which is probably the most basic type of relay.  So the protheans required an already existing relay in the citadel for a hook up point.  The current races don't have this ability.  Other than the control ending, there is no citadel.

You don't know that the protheans actually needed that to make the technology work, only that they had it.

I agree with the premature sarcasm, but it's okay I'm sure you'll get the hang of it. And yes, Harbinger was active. The Reapers were active in that case, just not all of them or most of them. Harbinger is not an island, he is part of the Reapers forces and likely their leader after Starchild. What he does isn't of benefit to him alone.

I meant it was you who resorted to the premature sarcasm.  To the rest, you say Harbinger is not an island, which directly contradicts the whole "We are each a nation, independent" thing.  We know Harbinger was active, we cannot infer that the rest of the Reapers were from this fact alone.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 10 avril 2012 - 04:50 .

[Warrior Craess]

Geneaux486 wrote...

DaeJi wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...


The Collectors are controlled by Harbinger alone.

Damn, and all this time I thought Harbinger was a Reaper. The oldest, largest, leaderest Reaper. A point to you, good sir.

<_<

My point was that all the Collectors tell us is that Harbinger was still active.  We don't know what his posse was doing.  lol premature sarcasm

It took the protheans 100 years after first contact with reapers to create a very small mass relay which was only point to point with an already existing relay, the citadel.  And protheans had the benefit of having mass relays intact for reverse engineering purposes.  The current races don't even have that luxury.

The Prothean scientists were in stasis during that time, so the amount of time passed didn't help them.  They still did it in a fraction of one prothean lifetime.  And the current races not only have the wreckage of the mass relays, but also a bunch of dead reapers to work with.

the conduit was built before Illos went into secrecy mode. We do not know how long it took them to actually create their own relay. Nor do we know what sort of effort was put into the endeavor. It was a one way ticket so the conduit was in place before the reapers took over the Citadel. 

[Allan Schumacher]

DaeJi wrote...

Nothing, and in fact if the Relays remained destroyed after the Extended Cut DLC that's probably what BioWare will have the galaxy do next. Which, again, makes destroying them pointless.

You'll need to elaborate on the "pointlessness" of it.  I'm not quite sure what you mean by that.  Having the galaxy recover from the aftermath of the reaper conflict, even if it means the reconstruction of the relays, doesn't strike me as being something that is pointless.  It's just part of the narrative, and if we want to drill down far enough we could argue that any piece of fiction is pointless.

We do know that Reapers are still active between harvestings, even
if at a reduced levels. Look at the Collectors, beings who ran
experiments for the Reapers. As well, the codex also mentions that the Reapers don't really need to use the Relays but use them anyway due to convenience.

Wouldn't the bolded indicate that the Relays aren't a requirement then?

[DaeJi]

Leafs43 wrote...


I added in the fact that what the protheans did invent, it was a point to point relay, which is probably the most basic type of relay.  So the protheans required an already existing relay in the citadel for a hook up point.  The current races don't have this ability.  Other than the control ending, there is no citadel.

I'm pretty sure that the protheans built both ends of the Conduit, the one on Ilos and the one in the Citadel. The one in the Citadel was probably built first, and then the one on Ilos to connect to it.

[PsyrenY]

Needing to reconstruct (or build from scratch) a relay network isn't pointless at all. It gives the series reason for a hefty timeskip, which we'll need if there's going to be any ME set after ME3, to distance the universe from Shepard's decisions.

But even then I doubt there will be any more stories post-Shepard, there's way too many variables.

[mumwaldee369]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

DaeJi wrote...

Nothing, and in fact if the Relays remained destroyed after the Extended Cut DLC that's probably what BioWare will have the galaxy do next. Which, again, makes destroying them pointless.

You'll need to elaborate on the "pointlessness" of it.  I'm not quite sure what you mean by that.  Having the galaxy recover from the aftermath of the reaper conflict, even if it means the reconstruction of the relays, doesn't strike me as being something that is pointless.  It's just part of the narrative, and if we want to drill down far enough we could argue that any piece of fiction is pointless.

We do know that Reapers are still active between harvestings, even
if at a reduced levels. Look at the Collectors, beings who ran
experiments for the Reapers. As well, the codex also mentions that the Reapers don't really need to use the Relays but use them anyway due to convenience.

Wouldn't the bolded indicate that the Relays aren't a requirement then?

Reapers don't eat AFAIK. 

[Leafs43]

DaeJi wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...


I added in the fact that what the protheans did invent, it was a point to point relay, which is probably the most basic type of relay.  So the protheans required an already existing relay in the citadel for a hook up point.  The current races don't have this ability.  Other than the control ending, there is no citadel.

I'm pretty sure that the protheans built both ends of the Conduit, the one on Ilos and the one in the Citadel. The one in the Citadel was probably built first, and then the one on Ilos to connect to it.

I assume whatever was done was done to the citadel first.

But I think the conduit drew on the citadels energy in order of it to work.

But still, there is no citadel or even a relay to replicate this with.

[Warrior Craess]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Warrior Craess wrote...

But then we get into the mechanics of why the relays explode. As far as I can see with out there being a significant explosion (nova level as opposed to supernova - but everyones still screwed anyway.) there really isn't any reason for the relays to explode. 

This is something I haven't given too much thought of, because a device like the Crucible is innately impossible to understand.  Which is my reservation for it being the primary plot device in the main game, but it's what we're given so we have to go with it.

I'll have to agree with you on the fact that it should have been a main plot device. I really would rather have had it be the granddaddy of all glass cannons. EMS becomes important becuase you build up a large enough fleet that you can protect it, while it's blasting Reapers out of the sky.  It goes around killing reapers, but fires slowly enough that with out sufficient miltiary strength you can't defend it long enough to solve the reaper problem.  Would have made much more sense that way. 

[CapnManx]

Warrior Craess wrote...



lol your kidding right? prior to ME 3 you couldn't just head on over to the otherside of the galaxy, interact with people there and then fly back? They might not all agree with the Council (ie the terminus systems )but we could interact on a daily basis we could exchange art, business, manufacturing,  etc etc. Yes the ME verse is a galactic civilization. 

We have a global civilization now - and yet we don't all follow the same leadership. We can however travel to any point on the globe in a short amount of time. I can talk with someone from China, or Germany of one of the poles if I really wanted to. If i had the money I could travel and visit those places with out having to spend too much time in doing so. Take away planes, cars and ships, go back to the days of wind powered sailing. In fact go back to Greak or Roman times and look at a world map, see just how much interaction there was between China and Rome, Or China and Greece.  I'm sure there was some few hardy souls who made the journey, but it wasn't many and it wasn't very meaningful. Not to mention that at this point there was 0 interaction between the america's and the rest of the world.  

With out the relays you will not have much if any interaction between various local clusters. They will compete (vaguely) for resources, and they may be isolated conflicts, but nothing else.  yes, there will be intersteller societies, but gone are the days when you can travel from earth to thessia, or Rannoch.  Gone will be the galactic civilization. 

Rubbish.  There will still be communication links; and journeys will still be possible, even if they have to start using sleeper ships.  Trade goods will still make it around the galaxy, although now they'll be passing from port to port, and owner to owner, instead of going straight from point A to point B.

Galactic civilization as you describe it will still be possible; it'll just take a very different form.

The only thing that's really impossible (or at least very, very, very unlikely) is a galactic nation; and that never existed anyway.

[DaeJi]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

You'll need to elaborate on the "pointlessness" of it.  I'm not quite sure what you mean by that.  Having the galaxy recover from the aftermath of the reaper conflict, even if it means the reconstruction of the relays, doesn't strike me as being something that is pointless.  It's just part of the narrative, and if we want to drill down far enough we could argue that any piece of fiction is pointless.

I find it pointless in the sense of the narrative. Why have an action take place if that action is then undone. It would be better to not have that situation at all and instead devote resources to an action that will have a more lasting effect. Rebuilding the Relays makes their destruction pointless since there is no narrative fallout save a time lag in restoring the status quo. A better action to take would have been to destroy Earth but keep the Relays, since you cannot rebuild a planet.

Wouldn't the bolded indicate that the Relays aren't a requirement then?

They are not a requirement, but then again neither is spaceflight. No matter how unneeded the Relays really are they are too useful to be discarded.

Modifié par DaeJi, 10 avril 2012 - 05:00 .

[Allan Schumacher]

DaeJi wrote...

I agree with the premature sarcasm, but it's okay I'm sure you'll get the hang of it. And yes, Harbinger was active. The Reapers were active in that case, just not all of them or most of them. Harbinger is not an island, he is part of the Reapers forces and likely their leader after Starchild. What he does isn't of benefit to him alone.

Was this ever really disputed though?  Weren't the Reapers "awakened" in the end of ME1, with the collectors running around in ME2?

(I'll admit I'm probably much less versed in the details of the lore than others, so I may be mistaken)

[Geneaux486]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

DaeJi wrote...

I agree with the premature sarcasm, but it's okay I'm sure you'll get the hang of it. And yes, Harbinger was active. The Reapers were active in that case, just not all of them or most of them. Harbinger is not an island, he is part of the Reapers forces and likely their leader after Starchild. What he does isn't of benefit to him alone.

Was this ever really disputed though?  Weren't the Reapers "awakened" in the end of ME1, with the collectors running around in ME2?

(I'll admit I'm probably much less versed in the details of the lore than others, so I may be mistaken)

No you're right about that, but it wasn't what we were arguing.  I pointed out that the Reapers are in hibernation between cycles, and DaeJi said that the Collectors being active was proof that all the Reapers were at least still partly active in between cycles.  They still very well could be, but the Collectors and Harbinger's controlling them are not proof of that. 

Modifié par Geneaux486, 10 avril 2012 - 05:03 .

[PsyrenY]

The only real support we have for Harbinger being the leader is that he gets all the face time with Shep, and the one on Rannoch saying "Harbinger speaks of you." That doesn't necessarily mean they have a chain of command though, and Sovereign's "we are each a nation, independent" actually implies that they don't.

[Zuka999]

If Mass Effect just becomes another Star Wars with wanked FTL and space magic "beings of light".. I should go.