440 réponses à ce sujet

[shepard1038]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

DaeJi wrote...

I agree with the premature sarcasm, but it's okay I'm sure you'll get the hang of it. And yes, Harbinger was active. The Reapers were active in that case, just not all of them or most of them. Harbinger is not an island, he is part of the Reapers forces and likely their leader after Starchild. What he does isn't of benefit to him alone.

Was this ever really disputed though?  Weren't the Reapers "awakened" in the end of ME1, with the collectors running around in ME2?

(I'll admit I'm probably much less versed in the details of the lore than others, so I may be mistaken)

Nope you're actually right. The reapers were awake after the end of me1 and were making the travel from dark
space to the milky way.

[DaeJi]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Was this ever really disputed though?  Weren't the Reapers "awakened" in the end of ME1, with the collectors running around in ME2?

(I'll admit I'm probably much less versed in the details of the lore than others, so I may be mistaken)

Virgil mentioned that the Reapers return to dark space after each harvest, though what they are doing is anyone's guess. With the Collectors, who were doing their collecting thing prior to Mass Effect 2, we have some evidence that the Reapers were still active.

[Allan Schumacher]

DaeJi wrote...

I find it pointless in the sense of the narrative. Why have an action take place if that action is then undone. It would be better to not have that situation at all and instead devote resources to an action that will have a more lasting effect. Rebuilding the Relays makes their destruction pointless since there is no narrative fallout save a time lag in restoring the status quo. A better action to take would have been to destroy Earth but keep the Relays, since you cannot rebuild a planet.

This is not really an uncommon event in any sort of narrative, because it's not really an uncommon event in our reality.

I think it's safe to say that the relays aren't going to be rebuilt tomorrow, and I think everyone can agree that the current rate of travel is very complicating to the galaxy right now.  The only real benefit is that we can still communicate in real time.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 10 avril 2012 - 05:03 .

[DaeJi]

Optimystic_X wrote...

The only real support we have for Harbinger being the leader is that he gets all the face time with Shep, and the one on Rannoch saying "Harbinger speaks of you." That doesn't necessarily mean they have a chain of command though, and Sovereign's "we are each a nation, independent" actually implies that they don't.

I'm going with the Codex, with mentions that Harbinger seems to be leading the assult on Earth.

[Geneaux486]

DaeJi wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Was this ever really disputed though?  Weren't the Reapers "awakened" in the end of ME1, with the collectors running around in ME2?

(I'll admit I'm probably much less versed in the details of the lore than others, so I may be mistaken)

Virgil mentioned that the Reapers return to dark space after each harvest, though what they are doing is anyone's guess. With the Collectors, who were doing their collecting thing prior to Mass Effect 2, we have some evidence that the Reapers were still active.

It's stated in-game that the Reapers hibernate in dark space.  And again, Harbinger directly controlling the Collectors is not proof that the Reapers are active in between cycles.

[Allan Schumacher]

Geneaux486 wrote...

No you're right about that, but it wasn't what we were arguing.  I pointed out that the Reapers are in hibernation between cycles, and DaeJi said that the Collectors being active was proof that all the Reapers were at least still partly active in between cycles.  They still very well could be, but the Collectors and Harbinger's controlling them are not proof of that. 

Hmmm, what were the collectors doing before the Reapers were reawakened?  Is it really a reflection that the Reapers were partially active?

[HeliusCarthaxis]

DaeJi wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...
You are assuming the Reapers have been trying to figure it out, but nowhere in the game is this stated.  They fly into the galaxy, purge advanced life, then hibernate in dark space.  There was no need for them to research faster means of travel because they believed the system they had in place for their extinction cycles was foolproof.

We do know that Reapers are still active between harvestings, even if at a reduced levels. Look at the Collectors, beings who ran experiments for the Reapers. As well, the codex also mentions that the Reapers don't really need to use the Relays but use them anyway due to convenience.

I'm sorry, I completely reject the premise as well, but the heck in the codex does it mention the Reapers not really needing the relays?! EVERY entry on the Reaper's movements descripe them using the Relays themselves. For example, see  the ME3 Codex entry on Relays:  

Once believed to be of Prothean origin, mass relays were in fact created by the Reapers using technology far beyond that of other living species. The enormous structures, scattered throughout the stars, create corridors of virtually mass-free space. This allows instantaneous transit between locations normally separated by years or even centuries using conventional FTL drives.

Primary mass relays can propel ships thousands of light-years. The flight path, however, is fixed to a single relay elsewhere in the galaxy. By contrast, secondary relays, while only capable of propelling ships a few hundred light-years, can reach any other relay within their limited range.

Many primary relays lie dormant, their destinations not yet known. These relays are often left inactive on purpose, as established civilizations are unwilling to blindly open a passage that might connect them to a new, hostile species. The Reapers do not share the same concern, and freely use the dormant relays.

Modifié par HeliusCarthaxis, 10 avril 2012 - 05:06 .

[Geneaux486]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

No you're right about that, but it wasn't what we were arguing.  I pointed out that the Reapers are in hibernation between cycles, and DaeJi said that the Collectors being active was proof that all the Reapers were at least still partly active in between cycles.  They still very well could be, but the Collectors and Harbinger's controlling them are not proof of that. 

Hmmm, what were the collectors doing before the Reapers were reawakened?  Is it really a reflection that the Reapers were partially active?

It isn't.  Harbinger is the only Reaper we've ever seen controlling the Collectors, so even if we know that Harbinger is active, that does not mean the rest of the reapers are active as well.

[DaeJi]

Allan Schumacher wrote...
This is not really an uncommon event in any sort of narrative, because it's not really an uncommon event in our reality.

I think it's safe to say that the relays aren't going to be rebuilt tomorrow, and I think everyone can agree that the current rate of travel is very complicating to the galaxy right now.  The only real benefit is that we can still communicate in real time.

I agree that it is not uncommon in narrative and even works in some stories. But I do not see the real need to destroy the Relays in this case as I find the benefits of keeping them outweights whatever narrative gain destroying them offers. Granted I'm not privied to the future plans for the Mass Effect series, though within my own imagination I find the loss of the Relays more limiting than freeing since between their destruction and rebuilding is likely a Fallout type story. In space.

Also aren't the Relays needed for communication across the galaxy?

[DaeJi]

Geneaux486 wrote...



It's stated in-game that the Reapers hibernate in dark space.  And again, Harbinger directly controlling the Collectors is not proof that the Reapers are active in between cycles.

Where in game does it state that the Reapers hibernate in dark space?

[Warrior Craess]

mumwaldee369 wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

DaeJi wrote...

Nothing, and in fact if the Relays remained destroyed after the Extended Cut DLC that's probably what BioWare will have the galaxy do next. Which, again, makes destroying them pointless.

You'll need to elaborate on the "pointlessness" of it.  I'm not quite sure what you mean by that.  Having the galaxy recover from the aftermath of the reaper conflict, even if it means the reconstruction of the relays, doesn't strike me as being something that is pointless.  It's just part of the narrative, and if we want to drill down far enough we could argue that any piece of fiction is pointless.

We do know that Reapers are still active between harvestings, even
if at a reduced levels. Look at the Collectors, beings who ran
experiments for the Reapers. As well, the codex also mentions that the Reapers don't really need to use the Relays but use them anyway due to convenience.

Wouldn't the bolded indicate that the Relays aren't a requirement then?

Reapers don't eat AFAIK. 

Eating has nothing to do with it.  Reapers don't have to discharge static electric buildup. This is why wit our current tech the relays are needed. This is why, with our current tech Galactic travel in impossible. Well that and the lack of navigational knowledge of a way home via planet hoping. However unlike some others here I don't forsee any race persuing an alternate technology.
1) We know mass relays work. We know that there isn't anything better.  
2) Knowledge of the relays/Mass effect drives is several decades at least more andvanced than any other travel techology. It doesn't matter that we didn't earn that knowledge, all that matters is that we have it. 
3) all the money from businesses and govts is going to be thrown at rebuilding the relays. for the 2 reasons listed above. 

The destruction of the relays isn't pointless from a story stand point - if some closure is given on what happens to the galaxy afterwards. However game play of the ME verse is finished, there can be nothing ME related past this point. Can you really see dedicated ME fans being happy to explore the local cluster only?  And lets face it many of us won't play prequels or concurrent games because we are turned off by the ending, and will not be able to forget it. If they reintroduce the relays so that a series can be played after the reaper crisis, then yes destroying the relays is rather pointless, from a gameplay standing. 

[charon45]

Geneaux486 wrote...


The Prothean scientists were in stasis during that time, so the amount of time passed didn't help them.  They still did it in a fraction of one prothean lifetime.  And the current races not only have the wreckage of the mass relays, but also a bunch of dead reapers to work with.

Weren't you just arguing that destroying the relays was a benefit because organics could develop technology free of Reaper influence?  Now you want them to recreate what was there from some sort of Reaper blue print? 

[Warrior Craess]

DaeJi wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...



It's stated in-game that the Reapers hibernate in dark space.  And again, Harbinger directly controlling the Collectors is not proof that the Reapers are active in between cycles.

Where in game does it state that the Reapers hibernate in dark space?

 ME 1 states this. But it's of limited value because it's all speculation. pretty sure soveriegn never says it. And the Prothians can't really be called experts on reapers. 

[DaeJi]

HeliusCarthaxis wrote...
I'm sorry, I completely reject the premise as well, but the heck in the codex does it mention the Reapers not really needing the relays?! EVERY entry on the Reaper's movements descripe them using the Relays themselves. For example, see  the ME3 Codex entry on Relays: 

In one of the Codex entries in Mass Effect 3, when discussing methods to defeat the Reapers some generals propose destroying the Relays, but the entry goes on to note that would slow the Reapers down but not stop them.

[Ubergrog]

What's the prevent the current cycle from replicating (or near replicating) the Mass Relays themselves?

A good question, allow me to provide the list of current stalls on such an endeavor.

1. (and this is the most important) The entire galactic infrastructure has been smashed to tiny bits. Fuel stations, mining operations, shipyards... most have been reduced to rubble. In order for something so large as a mass relay to be built, it needs to have these resources avaliable and in large numbers to make it possible. 

2. No one has ever actually studied how the mass relays work(though they may have theories), they know how to turn them on, and off. Now, they are all floating bits of useless junk in space, unless the effects of their destruction did not result in the delicate internal systems being also smashed to bits.

3. They have more pressing matters to worry about. Continuation and conservation of ecosystems, governments and culture. Refugee support, rebuilding and security.  They probably are more concerned with making sure the two or three billion of each race currently without food or shelter can survive when the centers of their empires have been reduced to blasted pieces of rubble. 

That's three good reasons. want more?

[DaeJi]

Warrior Craess wrote...

 ME 1 states this. But it's of limited value because it's all speculation. pretty sure soveriegn never says it. And the Prothians can't really be called experts on reapers. 

That's what I think as well. If the protheans, beings whom left behind a relative wealth of knowledge about themselves, were so poorly understood as shown in Mass Effect 3 with Javik I doubt the Reapers would be any more explained.

With the Collectors there is evidence that the Reapers are active in dark space, if not much evidence. No such evidence exists for them being inactive.

[T-0pel]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

DaeJi wrote...

I find it pointless in the sense of the narrative. Why have an action take place if that action is then undone. It would be better to not have that situation at all and instead devote resources to an action that will have a more lasting effect. Rebuilding the Relays makes their destruction pointless since there is no narrative fallout save a time lag in restoring the status quo. A better action to take would have been to destroy Earth but keep the Relays, since you cannot rebuild a planet.

This is not really an uncommon event in any sort of narrative, because it's not really an uncommon event in our reality.

I think it's safe to say that the relays aren't going to be rebuilt tomorrow, and I think everyone can agree that the current rate of travel is very complicating to the galaxy right now.  The only real benefit is that we can still communicate in real time.

We can?! How? I thought communication was possible also because of the Relays.

[Geneaux486]

charon45 wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...


The Prothean scientists were in stasis during that time, so the amount of time passed didn't help them.  They still did it in a fraction of one prothean lifetime.  And the current races not only have the wreckage of the mass relays, but also a bunch of dead reapers to work with.

Weren't you just arguing that destroying the relays was a benefit because organics could develop technology free of Reaper influence?  Now you want them to recreate what was there from some sort of Reaper blue print? 

No, that wasn't one of my arguments.  You might have confused me with someone else.

[Allan Schumacher]

Ubergrog wrote...

A good question, allow me to provide the list of current stalls on such an endeavor.

1. (and this is the most important) The entire galactic infrastructure has been smashed to tiny bits. Fuel stations, mining operations, shipyards... most have been reduced to rubble. In order for something so large as a mass relay to be built, it needs to have these resources avaliable and in large numbers to make it possible.

Societies throughout history have recovered after being ravaged through war.

2. No one has ever actually studied how the mass relays work(though they may have theories), they know how to turn them on, and off. Now, they are all floating bits of useless junk in space, unless the effects of their destruction did not result in the delicate internal systems being also smashed to bits.

I'm not sure why this would prevent another species from ever developing it.  It makes the assumption that only the Reapers were capable of building them.

3. They have more pressing matters to worry about. Continuation and conservation of ecosystems, governments and culture. Refugee support, rebuilding and security.  They probably are more concerned with making sure the two or three billion of each race currently without food or shelter can survive when the centers of their empires have been reduced to blasted pieces of rubble.

I don't think anyone has said that it'd be something that starts tomorrow.

That's three good reasons. want more?

Sure.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 10 avril 2012 - 05:21 .

[tenojitsu]

Its not that they'll find a better way, but FTL would be good enough. Obviously not as fast as the Mass Relays, but sufficient. Any who says that they cant rebuild the Mass Relays with salvaged Repear tech from a disabled Repear. Maybe they'll find schematics or something.

[Warrior Craess]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

No you're right about that, but it wasn't what we were arguing.  I pointed out that the Reapers are in hibernation between cycles, and DaeJi said that the Collectors being active was proof that all the Reapers were at least still partly active in between cycles.  They still very well could be, but the Collectors and Harbinger's controlling them are not proof of that. 

Hmmm, what were the collectors doing before the Reapers were reawakened?  Is it really a reflection that the Reapers were partially active?

It isn't.  Harbinger is the only Reaper we've ever seen controlling the Collectors, so even if we know that Harbinger is active, that does not mean the rest of the reapers are active as well.

nor does it mean that they arn't. Sorry but while it's stated that the reaper hibernate, thats really nothing more than speculation. We don't know what they are doing out there so we guess.  No one knows what is happening with them, not the Prothians, not Saren, not the Illusive man, not the collectors.  Only Soveriegn or Harbinger know, and they never told us. 

[OhoniX]

I find it pointless in the sense of the narrative. Why have an action take place if that action is then undone. It would be better to not have that situation at all and instead devote resources to an action that will have a more lasting effect. Rebuilding the Relays makes their destruction pointless since there is no narrative fallout save a time lag in restoring the status quo. A better action to take would have been to destroy Earth but keep the Relays, since you cannot rebuild a planet.

Think of it like this: You see a marching band going down the street. You trip the guy in the front, he falls over, the entire band tumbles all over him, it's a mess. They all get back up, take a minute to sort themselves out, and continue on their way. Can you argue that nothing just happened, just because it sorts itself out to a status quo?

Even if they do eventually rebuild the relays, something was different by not having them for a bit. If they'd had the relays, everyone would have just packed up and shot off home right away. Easy peasey. With the relays down, they can't do that, they're stuck in Sol. Some insist that they're stuck there permanently, I think that's ridiculous, but at the very least, leaving will take time and effort, as well as cooperation. If they go FTL then they need to build migrant fleets capable of multi-year journeys and plot their courses. IF they rebuild the relays that should take at least years and considerable effort.

The results of this should have a monumental effect on the history of the Citadel races, it could bring them closer together if they work together to achieve these goals, it could tear them apart if they aren't able to keep it together and fight amongst themselves for control, all sorts of things could happen, and that's an important story to tell.

If all you care about is the beginning and the end and not the journey then what was the point of the entire series? There were no Reapers attacking people before ME1, and there are none after ME3, so by your definition of a "pointed" narrative, none of ME mattered at all.

[DaeJi]

tenojitsu wrote...

Its not that they'll find a better way, but FTL would be good enough. Obviously not as fast as the Mass Relays, but sufficient. Any who says that they cant rebuild the Mass Relays with salvaged Repear tech from a disabled Repear. Maybe they'll find schematics or something.

The problem with standard FTL is of course fuel, dischargings, ploting, etc. On a higher conceptional level it takes away something that made Mass Effect stand out from other space operas, the fact that the galaxy is just too massive for standard FTL drives to be effective. I LOVED that in Mass Effect only, at best, 1% of the galaxy was explored. It allows for the mystery of what lays between the Relays and opens doors for new stories. If Mass Effect converts to just having everyone use FTL drives then some of that mystery is lost since more of the galaxy would need to be explored for that mode of travel to be feastible.

[Leafs43]

tenojitsu wrote...

Its not that they'll find a better way, but FTL would be good enough. Obviously not as fast as the Mass Relays, but sufficient. Any who says that they cant rebuild the Mass Relays with salvaged Repear tech from a disabled Repear. Maybe they'll find schematics or something.

FTL is is not the answer.

I don't want to explain it for the upteenth time, but it's simply not.  Copmparing FTL to Mass relays, you have to start speaking in powers.

The galaxy is simply too big for FTL to be the mode of transportation.

[Warrior Craess]

T-0pel wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

DaeJi wrote...

I find it pointless in the sense of the narrative. Why have an action take place if that action is then undone. It would be better to not have that situation at all and instead devote resources to an action that will have a more lasting effect. Rebuilding the Relays makes their destruction pointless since there is no narrative fallout save a time lag in restoring the status quo. A better action to take would have been to destroy Earth but keep the Relays, since you cannot rebuild a planet.

This is not really an uncommon event in any sort of narrative, because it's not really an uncommon event in our reality.

I think it's safe to say that the relays aren't going to be rebuilt tomorrow, and I think everyone can agree that the current rate of travel is very complicating to the galaxy right now.  The only real benefit is that we can still communicate in real time.

We can?! How? I thought communication was possible also because of the Relays.

Quantum entanglement fields.  The manner in which Shepard was able to comm with Anderson.  Expensive and uncommon (though Emily Wong had one as a report so maybe not that uncommon) 

QEC do not require relays to communicate. They are actually faster than instant. There is not time lang between them at all.  Cool thing, we know how it's done today in RL.