440 réponses à ce sujet

[DaeJi]

OhoniX wrote...


Think of it like this: You see a marching band going down the street. You trip the guy in the front, he falls over, the entire band tumbles all over him, it's a mess. They all get back up, take a minute to sort themselves out, and continue on their way. Can you argue that nothing just happened, just because it sorts itself out to a status quo?

Even if they do eventually rebuild the relays, something was different by not having them for a bit. If they'd had the relays, everyone would have just packed up and shot off home right away. Easy peasey. With the relays down, they can't do that, they're stuck in Sol. Some insist that they're stuck there permanently, I think that's ridiculous, but at the very least, leaving will take time and effort, as well as cooperation. If they go FTL then they need to build migrant fleets capable of multi-year journeys and plot their courses. IF they rebuild the relays that should take at least years and considerable effort.

The results of this should have a monumental effect on the history of the Citadel races, it could bring them closer together if they work together to achieve these goals, it could tear them apart if they aren't able to keep it together and fight amongst themselves for control, all sorts of things could happen, and that's an important story to tell.

If all you care about is the beginning and the end and not the journey then what was the point of the entire series? There were no Reapers attacking people before ME1, and there are none after ME3, so by your definition of a "pointed" narrative, none of ME mattered at all.

If the end is the same as the beginning then was was gained in the journey? Now, I'm not saying that just because the Relays being destroyed is pointless that everything is pointless. Quite the opposite, many things will have changed, and I simply see the Relays being lost not adding anything of worth. The history of the Citadel species is already forever changed, they will come together regardless having faced what was the likely end of days, or turn on each other given the ruin left in the wake of the Reapers. Removing the Relays only, to my eyes, serve to allow for a post-apocalyse setting before the status quo is restored.

[OhoniX]

I don't want to explain it for the upteenth time, but it's simply not. Copmparing FTL to Mass relays, you have to start speaking in powers.

The galaxy is simply too big for FTL to be the mode of transportation.

A full thirty year's travel at listed FTL speeds. FTL in Mass Effect is really quite fast.

If the end is the same as the beginning then was was gained in the journey?

XP.

Removing the Relays only, to my eyes, serve to allow for a post-apocalyse setting before the status quo is restored.

It adds a difficulty, certainly, the question is, would it be adding a difficulty that takes years to sort out, or a difficulty that takes centuries?

[Warrior Craess]

HeliusCarthaxis wrote...

DaeJi wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...
You are assuming the Reapers have been trying to figure it out, but nowhere in the game is this stated.  They fly into the galaxy, purge advanced life, then hibernate in dark space.  There was no need for them to research faster means of travel because they believed the system they had in place for their extinction cycles was foolproof.

We do know that Reapers are still active between harvestings, even if at a reduced levels. Look at the Collectors, beings who ran experiments for the Reapers. As well, the codex also mentions that the Reapers don't really need to use the Relays but use them anyway due to convenience.

I'm sorry, I completely reject the premise as well, but the heck in the codex does it mention the Reapers not really needing the relays?! EVERY entry on the Reaper's movements descripe them using the Relays themselves. For example, see  the ME3 Codex entry on Relays:  

Once believed to be of Prothean origin, mass relays were in fact created by the Reapers using technology far beyond that of other living species. The enormous structures, scattered throughout the stars, create corridors of virtually mass-free space. This allows instantaneous transit between locations normally separated by years or even centuries using conventional FTL drives.

Primary mass relays can propel ships thousands of light-years. The flight path, however, is fixed to a single relay elsewhere in the galaxy. By contrast, secondary relays, while only capable of propelling ships a few hundred light-years, can reach any other relay within their limited range.

Many primary relays lie dormant, their destinations not yet known. These relays are often left inactive on purpose, as established civilizations are unwilling to blindly open a passage that might connect them to a new, hostile species. The Reapers do not share the same concern, and freely use the dormant relays.

The reapers started from Dark space outside of the galaxy to someplace that they could access a relay it took them 3 years to do so. THey apparently travel at 30LY a day... lets see thats 30X365x3=32850 LY's of travel. pretty sure that means that they don't need relays. They also live an unfathomable amount of time. >50k per the conversation with Soveriegn. So no they don't need the relays. The relays though an infinitely faster. So they would us them to start their harvesting of all advanced life in a limited time. 

Modifié par Warrior Craess, 10 avril 2012 - 05:43 .

[DaeJi]

OhoniX wrote...


XP.

Ha! You get sarcasm, I approve.

I do see the benefits of removing the Relays, I just see more benefits in leaving them, especally if they are rebuilt anyway.

[Doom Lich]

Noone needed amazing FTL capabilities, because we have mass relays, instantaneous perfectly directed interstellar jump devices. So it makes sense once society hit a point of sufficient FTL capabilities, there wouldn't be much reason to invest much more into FTL research.

Now that the low hanging fruit has been obliterated, That research has no reason not to go on. In fact, it NEEDS to happen for the sake of the galaxy. So it's reasonable to believe FTL could improve to, perhaps idealistically, a few months will separated the Perseus Viel from the Sol System, not decades. Certainly nothing in the league of the Mass Relays, but it's sufficient.

[Clayless]

OP please see:

Legion's explination on technology.

[Riion]

For people saying there are many paths to the same goal: Yes, that statement is true in and of itself. However, the species of the galaxy in this cycle are no already so influenced, that I can't really imagine them trying to do anything other than emulate the relays. If all cars/planes were magically destroyed today, and you asked engineers to build you a replacement, they would probably for the most part gravitate towards the "traditional" designs. I see no shame in using the technology of others, humanity has done this many times in the past.

However, that being said, the relays being destroyed does not add anything to the story. First of all, like one poster pointed out, it makes no sense for the relays to explode if all the energy is being passed on. And destroying the galaxy's transport system is like destroying all the roads at the end of Lord of the Rings. It'll add more hardships, but do those hardships really add anything to the story?

Edit: @Doom Lich I would argue that the research would continue to focus on Mass Relays. Like many have mentioned, there are ingame mentions of species coming close to unlocking the secrets of the Relays, there's no reason they will suddenly throw away that research. 

Modifié par Riion, 10 avril 2012 - 05:52 .

[PsyrenY]

"What has been created, can be REcreated." -Admiral Daro'Xen.

I'm not worried about the relays - eventually, either someone will remake them, or someone will come up with something better.

[OhoniX]

I do see the benefits of removing the Relays, I just see more benefits in leaving them, especally if they are rebuilt anyway.

I don't really see any story benefit to leaving them as they are. What additional story potential does it bring to the table if everyone can just wander home at their convenience? Even if the loss of the relays is eventually corrected/overcome, it at least provides a temporary roadblock to push through.

[Warrior Craess]

OhoniX wrote...

I don't want to explain it for the upteenth time, but it's simply not. Copmparing FTL to Mass relays, you have to start speaking in powers.

The galaxy is simply too big for FTL to be the mode of transportation.

A full thirty year's travel at listed FTL speeds. FTL in Mass Effect is really quite fast.

If the end is the same as the beginning then was was gained in the journey?

XP.

Removing the Relays only, to my eyes, serve to allow for a post-apocalyse setting before the status quo is restored.

It adds a difficulty, certainly, the question is, would it be adding a difficulty that takes years to sort out, or a difficulty that takes centuries?

We don't travel at 30LY/day.   We travel an 12LY/day, yes this is fast, no it's not fast enough to sustain a galactic civ. The closet cluster to ours is 2.2 year travel in a straight line (impossible) with out stopping (impossible).  Since we have to worry about static discharge we have to planet hop our way across the galaxy. BTW none of those routes are plotted at this point. So we'd have to explore (preferebly telemetrically not with ships) before we could travel to another star system.  And what happens if there is a point where a planet is no longer in safe traveling range?   So but FTL travel is insufficient to crossing the Galaxy.

To answer you final question  it would take centuries or longer to re-establish a galactic civilization. 

[Xandax]

Considering that the Mass Relays are actually an impractical way of travelling because you need to go from one to another and not just to any point you choose - it does seem like that the usage of them are more than just 'convenient'.

It's why mobile phones are removing all need for normal phones. It's easier to make a call from anywhere to anywhere instead of from a fixed line to another fixed line.
It's the same with these. If FTL was a better means of travel - or as viable - 'people' would use that over a fixed point to fixed point type thing.

They seem rather essential. Sure - you could always make 'oh whoo - we've invented jump technology' like in all the other Sci-Fi - but that just makes it Star Trek and not Mass Effect.

[charon45]

DaeJi wrote...

tenojitsu wrote...

Its not that they'll find a better way, but FTL would be good enough. Obviously not as fast as the Mass Relays, but sufficient. Any who says that they cant rebuild the Mass Relays with salvaged Repear tech from a disabled Repear. Maybe they'll find schematics or something.

The problem with standard FTL is of course fuel, dischargings, ploting, etc. On a higher conceptional level it takes away something that made Mass Effect stand out from other space operas, the fact that the galaxy is just too massive for standard FTL drives to be effective. I LOVED that in Mass Effect only, at best, 1% of the galaxy was explored. It allows for the mystery of what lays between the Relays and opens doors for new stories. If Mass Effect converts to just having everyone use FTL drives then some of that mystery is lost since more of the galaxy would need to be explored for that mode of travel to be feastible.

The big problem I see with people arguing for FTL is that it has never been done before.  Humans tried it at Jump Zero and figured it out was suicide before discovering the relays.  Not only is the infrastructure most likely not in place, but there is no one who knows how to make a relay length trip even if it were possible. 

[Jadebaby]

DanteImprimis wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

Destroying the mass relays doesn't magically open another door.

The reapers are considered  close to perfection and far more advanced than any current species and they still use the mass relay network for the main way of travel.  They use the citadel as a giant mass relay in ME1.  They use the alpha relay in ME2 arrival's dlc.  So it is canon that the reapers use the mass relay system.


So by saying the mass relays are optional, you admit that the citadel races, which are considerably less advanced than the reapers, can somehow think up of a better idea for travel.  That idea is complete horse pockey and deserves to be rejected as a logical conclusion..

LucasShark wrote...

I agree:
- In the codex it is clearly stated that with FTL flight it would take "decades or centuries" to cross between the clusters populated thanks to mass relays
- Drive discharge makes crossing infinite voids of space 100 percent impossible given the rules laid out thus far, see quote: "Barriers to exploration"
- Even the Reapers, with their "superior" FTL flight capabilities took 6-7 months to get from the Alpha Relay in Arrival to anothr viable onefor the start of ME3

This (or "these," if you want to be pedantic).

If BW clarifies in the EC that relay-less FTL is somehow possible after all, it'll just be another demonstration of how little they apparently care about their own lore at this point.

Pretty much everything here^

[PsyrenY]

Riion wrote...

 It'll add more hardships, but do those hardships really add anything to the story?

Well for one - if you cured the genophage with Wreav in charge, it will keep the Krogan from immediately launching pogroms against the turians and salarians.They're not smart enough to either recreate the relays or invent their replacement.

[Geneaux486]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

OP please see:

Legion's explination on technology.

I've linked to the youtube video of it like four times, it hasn't changed OPs mind.

[DaeJi]

OhoniX wrote...

I don't really see any story benefit to leaving them as they are. What additional story potential does it bring to the table if everyone can just wander home at their convenience? Even if the loss of the relays is eventually corrected/overcome, it at least provides a temporary roadblock to push through.

But the stories following it would be about the species of the galaxy rebuilding the Relays. With them still in place, stories can include exploring beyond the range of the Relays, searching for the origins of the Reapers, digging into the history of the galaxy, etc. When a civilization is destroyed, then stories that follow it are are usually about rebuilding. With the infrastructure of the Relays in place, stories can go beyond rebuilding and more into exploration and discovery.

[Ubergrog]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Ubergrog wrote...

A good question, allow me to provide the list of current stalls on such an endeavor.

1. (and this is the most important) The entire galactic infrastructure has been smashed to tiny bits. Fuel stations, mining operations, shipyards... most have been reduced to rubble. In order for something so large as a mass relay to be built, it needs to have these resources avaliable and in large numbers to make it possible.

Societies throughout history have recovered after being ravaged through war.

2. No one has ever actually studied how the mass relays work(though they may have theories), they know how to turn them on, and off. Now, they are all floating bits of useless junk in space, unless the effects of their destruction did not result in the delicate internal systems being also smashed to bits.

I'm not sure why this would prevent another species from ever developing it.  It makes the assumption that only the Reapers were capable of building them.

3. They have more pressing matters to worry about. Continuation and conservation of ecosystems, governments and culture. Refugee support, rebuilding and security.  They probably are more concerned with making sure the two or three billion of each race currently without food or shelter can survive when the centers of their empires have been reduced to blasted pieces of rubble.

I don't think anyone has said that it'd be something that starts tomorrow.

That's three good reasons. want more?

Sure.

To respond... The scale of the Reaper war is far larger then any battle since the last cycle of extinction, lets not pretend it is any different. Scientists, military and political leaders were targetted first, and since they are mostly dead by now, it will be hard enough just to keep everyone in check before they are reduced to barbarism.

"Developing" a piece of technology like that is hundreds of generations away without a working sample. It doesn't start tomorrow, it starts a thousand years from now. Long beyond any point where one could comfortably make a "new game in the same universe"

[PsyrenY]

Warrior Craess wrote...
\\

We don't travel at 30LY/day.   We travel an 12LY/day, yes this is fast, no it's not fast enough to sustain a galactic civ.

Given that all three endings leave you with a nice cache of Reaper tech to soup your engines up with, I'm sure the "12 LY/day" figure will cease to be relevant in the new galaxy.

Ubergrog wrote...

Scientists, military and political leaders were targetted first

Except, you know, all the ones that were never attacked because they were building the Crucible.



I know "Galactic Dark Age" sounds cool and edgy to you guys but have some optimism, hm?

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 10 avril 2012 - 06:00 .

[lillitheris]

It's probably been mentioned, but the math (based on Codex, I can give more detail if needed) says that it takes 23 LY to cross the entire Milky Way in a straight line.

The travel isn't really a straight line, and fueling, food, and navigation must be taken into account.

It is reasonable to assume that traveling across the galaxy would take on the order of 40-50 years. The most optimistic estimate I could give would be about 35.


Edit: this assumes no incorporation of reaper tech, no significant tech advances in the middle of the journey, and obviously that the relays are actually not repairable (in a reasonable amount of time).

Modifié par lillitheris, 10 avril 2012 - 06:03 .

[Warrior Craess]

Doom Lich wrote...

Noone needed amazing FTL capabilities, because we have mass relays, instantaneous perfectly directed interstellar jump devices. So it makes sense once society hit a point of sufficient FTL capabilities, there wouldn't be much reason to invest much more into FTL research.

Now that the low hanging fruit has been obliterated, That research has no reason not to go on. In fact, it NEEDS to happen for the sake of the galaxy. So it's reasonable to believe FTL could improve to, perhaps idealistically, a few months will separated the Perseus Viel from the Sol System, not decades. Certainly nothing in the league of the Mass Relays, but it's sufficient.

it has 3 major reasons it won't go on.  

1) It can't possibly be better than the relays.  instant  travel across the galaxy is pretty tough to match and certainly can't be beat.  We know that tech exists. We know where we can find information about it. Yes the relay exploded but you'd be surprize how much information can be gathered from the wreckage of a bomb. And the relay wasn't a bomb so lots of it will be intact. Reverse engineering it won't be impossible. 

2) Mass effect travel is decades or centuries more advanced than any other form of travel. Why re-invent the wheel?  BTW the relays are nothing more than Mass effect drives. 

3) All the money spent (by businesses and govt.) supporting the needed research will be directed at rebuilding the relays for the 2 reasons listed above. 

Maybe the Geth will develop something. They may be the only ones truly free to explore other options. 

[Clayless]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

OP please see:

Legion's explination on technology.

I've linked to the youtube video of it like four times, it hasn't changed OPs mind.

I don't understand why. Seeing as though they're aren't restricted to Reaper technology and the entire galaxy would be working towards finding a way to travel they could, in theory, surpass Relay technology dramatically and quite quickly.

If the Geth are alive then it's even better.

[Icesong]

Allan Schumacher wrote...


You'll need to elaborate on the "pointlessness" of it.  I'm not quite sure what you mean by that.  Having the galaxy recover from the aftermath of the reaper conflict, even if it means the reconstruction of the relays, doesn't strike me as being something that is pointless.  It's just part of the narrative, and if we want to drill down far enough we could argue that any piece of fiction is pointless.

If it happens anytime relatively soon, which I would hope it would as ME won't be as interesting to me in a too far from present future, then it cheapens the narrative. It's like in WarCraft 3 when the World Tree was sacrificed to save the world. Great moment. But pretty much immediately a new one replaces it and the impact of that sacrifice is greatly diminished. Making it pointless narratively.

[Warrior Craess]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Warrior Craess wrote...


We don't travel at 30LY/day.   We travel an 12LY/day, yes this is fast, no it's not fast enough to sustain a galactic civ.

Given that all three endings leave you with a nice cache of Reaper tech to soup your engines up with, I'm sure the "12 LY/day" figure will cease to be relevant in the new galaxy.

Ubergrog wrote...

Scientists, military and political leaders were targetted first

Except, you know, all the ones that were never attacked because they were building the Crucible.



I know "Galactic Dark Age" sounds cool and edgy to you guys but have some optimism, hm?

even at 30 LY a day it would be tough. None of the required exploration to determine safe Navigational paths has been done. We are still organic, and still have to worry about static discharge.   Yes we might increase Speed, but then thats not the only thing causing issues.  Better yes, good enough? no. 

[DaeJi]

lillitheris wrote...

It's probably been mentioned, but the
math (based on Codex, I can give more detail if needed) says that it
takes 23 LY to cross the entire Milky Way in a straight line.

The travel isn't really a straight line, and fueling, food, and navigation must be taken into account.

It is reasonable to assume that traveling across the galaxy would take on the order of 40-50 years. The most optimistic estimate I could give would be about 35.

And that's only going one way.

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

I don't understand why. Seeing as though they're aren't restricted to Reaper technology and the entire galaxy would be working towards finding a way to travel they could, in theory, surpass Relay technology dramatically and quite quickly.

If the Geth are alive then it's even better.

The species of the galaxy are restricted to Reaper technology, since Mass Effect is their technology. Sure, in theory they could create new technology, but why would they when they have technology that not only works but can be progressed?

[Riion]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

OP please see:

Legion's explination on technology.

I've linked to the youtube video of it like four times, it hasn't changed OPs mind.

I don't understand why. Seeing as though they're aren't restricted to Reaper technology and the entire galaxy would be working towards finding a way to travel they could, in theory, surpass Relay technology dramatically and quite quickly.

If the Geth are alive then it's even better.

It's too late already. The effect of Reaper technology on current galactic society is just too great. They are already restricted to Reaper technology psychologically, economically, etc. 

Optimystic_X wrote...

Riion wrote...

 It'll add more hardships, but do those hardships really add anything to the story?

Well for one - if you cured the genophage with Wreav in charge, it will keep the Krogan from immediately launching pogroms against the turians and salarians.They're not smart enough to either recreate the relays or invent their replacement.

 

Yes, but what does that add to the story overall? Without the relays, Wreav might as well just decide to wage war in Sol. Overall, having the relays would make future stories more expansive, and it's pretty much iconic of the ME universe. Some people might say it's not important, but I enjoyed having a non "Warp Drive" method of transportation which fit so well within the universe created.